Trump Challenges the 14th Amendment by SHINYGOODGUY

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Trump Challenges the 14th Amendment

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Friday, May 12, 2023 14:28
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Wednesday, September 23, 2015 5:01 AM

I beg to differ. The American Dream, as I have come to understand it, is directly swaddled within the Constitution to form a more perfect union. It is part and parcel and, since the landing of the Pilgrims on Plymouth Rock, intertwined and deeply rooted within the fabric of our history. The American dream is alive and well, but being strongly manipulated by those high up on the top rung of the success ladder. They want to maintain the status quo; only the rich need apply.
The Secret is in the pudding and only shared strictly among "family" members.

Hence the illusion that it is "dead."

The 14th Amendment, like most of the Constitution, is all about FREEDOM. You said it yourself, a better way of life. That is the general gist of it, pursuit of happiness. Many fear that the Dream is slipping through their fingers, hence the paranoia that someone else will achieve that lofty goal and "they" will be left behind. By the way, it doesn't come gift wrapped. But I maintain that there are those that will stomp on your fingers trying to scratch and claw your way to the top of the heap. There's no doubts about that.

Even if we could build walls as tall as Trump's pompadour, could we realistically stem the tide? Should we let in more white folk from Europe and the Netherlands? You know, just to even the score. In their quest to make more profits and find cheaper labor, the big companies and corporate raiders have caused a tidal wave of immigrants to flood to our shores. And now, people here are crying "uncle!" Do you propose that we shut our shores and kick out anyone not born and raised here. I think it might be too late for that. Do we, in turn, change the culture of the corporate mentality? Do we maintain the culture of the haves and have nots? I have some news for you: those that traveled far and wide to this country from every corner of the world, have come for one thing - to survive. I don't see much difference in chasing that dream between those who came on the Mayflower and those coming now. Really! Let's send everyone back to whence they came. Then start over.

"does the USA have an obligation to open its borders to everyone who wants to move in to pursue that dream?"

Do you think that you are the first in history to pose that question?

FYI: The 14th Amendment was established "to secure to all persons in every State of the Union equal protection in their rights, life, liberty, and property." and directly related to the slavery issue in the country in 1866. These were people that were brought here against their will, and not people "seeking" a better way of life. It was a form of cheap labor, get someone else to do your dirty work and pay them peanuts.

Today there is a different kind of slavery - economic slavery. How do we get people to come here willingly to do our dirty work? Remember, they must be "inferior" to us; lesser human beings that we can control otherwise they might get the upper hand and change the status quo. If Republicans are so hellbent on achieving law and order - then why haven't they hammered out a comprehensive immigration law?

Donald Trump said it best - "I love Mexicans. I have thousands working for me."

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
I have always been exposed, since I was a kid, to that lofty goal of American Dream. Only coming to understand, to some degree, it's full meaning. It is an ideal, one that we choose to believe in, or not, and one that we choose to pursue, or not. That is "a chicken in every pot" type of dream. That is both a collective goal and a individual goal that we, as a nation and as individuals choose to strive towards. The promise of a better life - a house, car and money to burn.

There are those that DO NOT believe that goal exists for them, but others that do believe in that lofty ideal. And, depending on our circumstances, we choose. I'm not talking about markets, but of goals, dreams and ideas. What you speak of is of monetary status and position. Class.

You say that it doesn't exist or it's not real, that may be so but there are those that do believe and strive for it. For them it's real! They have heard of it all their lives, and so believe it to be real. I was in that number, but have come full circle and know that it's just that.....a dream, a carefully orchestrated marketing ploy. Clever, elusive and effective. Keep your shoulder to the wheel, they say. Work hard, others say. Streets paved with gold, yet others say. An American Dream.

SO, not coming here for FREEDOM, but for a better life.

I can understand that ... most people in the world want a better life, seeing as aspirations tend to move up even as people achieve their previous dream.

But THIS thread isn't about the American Dream and whether we believe in it or not, or whether it even exists at all. THIS thread is about the 14th amendment, immigration, and immigrants. So, in relation to the 14th amendment ... does the USA have an obligation to open its borders to everyone who wants to move in to pursue that dream? What if the dream of those who want to immigrate conflicts in a very real way with the dream of the people already here? i.e. one dream can't be achieved without ruining the other?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, September 25, 2015 7:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The American Dream, as I have come to understand it, is directly swaddled within the Constitution to form a more perfect union.

Try as I might, I absolutely cannot understand what you're trying to say. But I feel that this is an important understanding for you- a lived, felt, experienced view of America. I know you have written many words on the topic. Can you stand to write a few more? How do you envision "more perfect union"? How does it relate to the American Dream? Can you explain?

Quote:
The 14th Amendment, like most of the Constitution, is all about FREEDOM. You said it yourself, a better way of life.

FREEDOM is a way of life, but it's not necessarily a "better" (more prosperous) way of life. Quite often, people have to give up a lot of prosperity in order to be free.

Quote:
Even if we could build walls as tall as Trump's pompadour, could we realistically stem the tide?

Yes. It's possible to be done, the only reason why it;s not is because businesses are making quite a but of money hiring cheap labor. Besides, you're forgetting the OTHER parts of my policy, which are

1) Stop fucking with other nations - let other nations solve their problems without our "help" for bankers and oligarchs

2) Withdraw from NAFTA/ CAFTA - the only group it has benefited has been the international corporations

3) Make English the national language - languages are a strong unifying factor! (more perfect union) Oh yeah- and print ballot materials in English. There should be no reason to print ballot materials in 17 languages

4) Eliminate the birthright citizenship- that will reduce SOME of the "draw" to the USA

5) Offer citizenship to anyone who has lived here, crime-free, for 15 years, provided they have learned English and meet the other requirements. Kick the rest out.Yep - deport them.

Quote:
Should we let in more white folk from Europe and the Netherlands? You know, just to even the score. In their quest to make more profits and find cheaper labor, the big companies and corporate raiders have caused a tidal wave of immigrants to flood to our shores. And now, people here are crying "uncle!" Do you propose that we shut our shores and kick out anyone not born and raised here. I think it might be too late for that.

We already let in the super-technical, under the H1B (?) visa program. But they're usually not Europeans. They tend to be Indian, Chinese, Phillipino, or Israeli. Why??/ Because they work CHEAP. Our immigration policy is about cheap labor. There's nothing in there, as far as I can tell, about the American Dream or the Constitution.

So, what is YOUR solution to the problem? Let everyone in, regardless? Give everyone a paper as they cross the border, saying "welcome to the USA, you now have the right to live and work here, good luck?"

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Saturday, September 26, 2015 1:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I believe that the USA has an obligation by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo with Mexico to allow Spanish in CA, NM, TX and AZ. I don't know of the exact details of what the treaty allows or requires, but I don't see it as a bar to making English the official language, with Spanish another language in the relevant states.

------

I've been thinking about immigration/ emigration, mass migrations, wars and genocide for a long time. (Guns, Germs, Steel by Jared Diamond)

It's the human ... instinct, almost ... that when things turn sour where you are- when the game disappears or the water runs out or the jobs aren't available or the government is making life impossible - that you go someplace else.

It's a natural impulse. Freedom of movement, it's an underlying response.

How many movies were built on the idea of escape? How many cars were made to satisfy the substitution of "motion" for "progress"?

And when there were fewer people on the globe, or the people who were in your path were easily dominated or killed, it was an easy thing to do. But the world has 7 billion people in it. I know posters here take that emigration POV to advocate leaving the earth ... but aside from the fact that it's impossible to do on any scale, since nearly all of our modern problems are SELF-CREATED, what makes anyone think that we simply won't take our problems with us???

I think we need a change in ethic:

The recognition that we need to solve the problems WHERE WE ARE, not go running off someplace else.

I think the idea of being able to move elsewhere is what SGG thinks of as "freedom", and curtailing that option feels claustrophobic, imprisoning. But maybe it's just recognizing reality. Maybe emigration is a solution of the past. Anything that fosters in-place problem solving is a good thing, IMHO.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2015 5:31 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Ok, I think that most anyone that hears that phrase "American Dream" knows what that means, but I'll play along. It is a chicken in every pot, a house with a 2-car garage, 2 cars, 2.1 children, being able to go away every year for vacation and having enough cash/credit to pay for it. Without being greedy (added that last one).

It is the epitome of middle class life. Of course, that's history now partly due to corporate greed (there goes that word again). Yes, I'm like the rest of America, hoping for that little slice of heaven here on Earth. Remember, I was born and raised here; I've heard this throughout my life. Are we clear now?

More perfect union - it's the Utopian dream. Everyone getting along striving for that goal we've all been exposed to; hoping against hope that we end up grabbing the brass ring. My family and I were stuck in the bottom rung of the middle class (just barely treading water above the poverty line). My mom worked hard to give us a leg up on achieving that 'dream' (I salute single moms). My siblings and I reached varying degrees of success with grabbing that brass ring. Educated, law-abiding citizens who grew up loving Democracy (JFK was big in our house); no excuses, died-in-the-wool pursuers of FREEDOM.

Everyone has the right to disagree and voice their opinion, and if the majority sees fit to vote a particular way, then so be it. That's how it works! It may not be perfect, but it's the best we've got, it's the best the world has. Could it stand some tweaks, sure, but we must revert back to the document that made it all possible. That's how it works. That's as close that we'll come to that "more perfect union."

FREEDOM is always better. Yes, we must pay a steep price to obtain and keep it, but that's what makes it better. FREEDOM is not free or cheap.

Walls do not keep the influx of immigrants away. They come from other modes of travel, but lately the migration has slowed because the Mexican economy has improved. Do you think that Big Business is going to support the curtailing of their biggest meal ticket?

When the Pilgrims first landed in this country were there already Americans here speaking English? I think that is something that should be left alone. I learned English because I was born here; by the way, it wasn't until college that I learned about this country's history. I'm not going into a diatribe about that; it's better left for discussion at a party or social gathering. Let's just say that this country was established in many creative ways that may not have been completely on the up and up. Besides, one of the elements for Path to Citizenship is:

Be able to read, write, and speak English and have knowledge and an understanding of U.S. history and government (civics). (source: Official website of the Department of Homeland Security)

Nuff said'

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
The American Dream, as I have come to understand it, is directly swaddled within the Constitution to form a more perfect union.
Try as I might, I absolutely cannot understand what you're trying to say. But I feel that this is an important understanding for you- a lived, felt, experienced view of America. I know you have written many words on the topic. Can you stand to write a few more? How do you envision "more perfect union"? How does it relate to the American Dream? Can you explain?

Quote:
The 14th Amendment, like most of the Constitution, is all about FREEDOM. You said it yourself, a better way of life.
FREEDOM is a way of life, but it's not necessarily a "better" (more prosperous) way of life. Quite often, people have to give up a lot of prosperity in order to be free.

Quote:
Even if we could build walls as tall as Trump's pompadour, could we realistically stem the tide?
Yes. It's possible to be done, the only reason why it;s not is because businesses are making quite a but of money hiring cheap labor. Besides, you're forgetting the OTHER parts of my policy, which are

1) Stop fucking with other nations - let other nations solve their problems without our "help" for bankers and oligarchs

2) Withdraw from NAFTA/ CAFTA - the only group it has benefited has been the international corporations

3) Make English the national language - languages are a strong unifying factor! (more perfect union) Oh yeah- and print ballot materials in English. There should be no reason to print ballot materials in 17 languages

4) Eliminate the birthright citizenship- that will reduce SOME of the "draw" to the USA

5) Offer citizenship to anyone who has lived here, crime-free, for 15 years, provided they have learned English and meet the other requirements. Kick the rest out.Yep - deport them.

Quote:
Should we let in more white folk from Europe and the Netherlands? You know, just to even the score. In their quest to make more profits and find cheaper labor, the big companies and corporate raiders have caused a tidal wave of immigrants to flood to our shores. And now, people here are crying "uncle!" Do you propose that we shut our shores and kick out anyone not born and raised here. I think it might be too late for that.
We already let in the super-technical, under the H1B (?) visa program. But they're usually not Europeans. They tend to be Indian, Chinese, Phillipino, or Israeli. Why??/ Because they work CHEAP. Our immigration policy is about cheap labor. There's nothing in there, as far as I can tell, about the American Dream or the Constitution.

So, what is YOUR solution to the problem? Let everyone in, regardless? Give everyone a paper as they cross the border, saying "welcome to the USA, you now have the right to live and work here, good luck?"

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, September 29, 2015 7:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

I guess I still don't understand: Are people coming here for the American Dream, or for Freedom? They seem to be contradictory and illusory.

In either case, is the USA obligated to accept them once they get inside our borders?

BTW- YES, you can keep immigrants out. The right policy will manage to do that. That immigrant crisis in the EU? There is one place immigrants refuse to stay, and that's Cyprus. That's because Cyprus refuses to unite families. Just because one person made it over the sea doesn't mean anyone else gets to follow. It's a little like our birthright citizenship: remove that, and you remove one of "draws" to the USA.

AFA learning English: it's not enuf, apparently, to require people to learn English to become citizens. If that were the case, why are our ballots printed in so many languages?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 3, 2015 5:09 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Okay. FREEDOM and American Dream are separate! What now?

YES - we, the people can do anything. We can deny immigrants entry and keep America free from those "rabble," the unwashed, non-English speaking, backward people. Sure, let's close all our borders (should have done it a long time ago).

We are not obligated to accept them! Fuck 'em. All of them, send them back. There done!

Now, why haven't our elected officials, both parties, why haven't they changed the 14th Amendment?

Remove that.........and then you think people will stop Coming to America? Really, that will solve the problems? That will keep out those with funny accents, funny smells and customs away from our borders? That will solve the problem of the brown, yellow and black peoples from "invading" this country? That will take away the incentive to come here? Really? Oh, goody! Finally, a "clean" country, no foreigners need apply. What's that you say, big business robbed and raped your country........tough shit. Gut it out! Stay where you belong! You're not wanted or needed here.

The lovely Syrian government is doing exactly that. They are "cleansing" their country of the undesirables, the unwashed and ignorant. They have been banished and expelled to the EU and anyone else that will have them. One small thing, they were born and raised in Syria. Of course, I'm not comparing our "situation" to that of the repressive Syrian government. That would be inappropriate.

We have long been accepting of immigrants in this country. Long have we waved our flag and offered refuge. We devoted an island to deal with the influx of those immigrants, most of whom came from the EU. But times have changed and they need to understand, that we no longer wish to have them suckle on the teat of Lady Liberty.
No longer are we that great country, mainly because we have too many foreigners already. No vacancy! So if Christopher Columbus met up with people that think in such a manner, well, he is an immigrant. Fuck him, stay in your country. The German rocket scientists that helped to develop NASA would be denied access. You don't speak English, fuck you. Don't want you here.

Actually, it will make things much easier for the rest of us. So simple. Still though, why hasn't Congress addressed this issue?

Language

You're absolutely right. We should make English the official language of the country. I'm tired of people talking to me as though I were a foreign exchange student. They would know that if I am here in this country it is because I speak English motherfucker.

By the same token, you would agree that countries throughout the world would have every right to make their official language their native language and refuse anyone access or help in services unless they speak their official language. German in Germany, Greek in Greece, French in France, Swedish in Sweden, etc. If you can't order a bowl of chicken soup in their language, fuck outta here.

BTW, 53 Nations have adopted English as their official language (source: ProEnglish.org). But shouldn't they get their own official language, I don't agree with sharing "our" language with them.

But yeah, that'll reduce the number of immigrants even further, brilliant plan.
Now, about those McDonald's burger flippers...........you think that maybe we'll get the $15/hour minimum wage once we rid ourselves of those pesky wetbacks? That's what this is all about, isn't it? Secure border by Mexico......but what about Canada, don't we get illegals coming from there?

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess I still don't understand: Are people coming here for the American Dream, or for Freedom? They seem to be contradictory and illusory.

In either case, is the USA obligated to accept them once they get inside our borders?

BTW- YES, you can keep immigrants out. The right policy will manage to do that. That immigrant crisis in the EU? There is one place immigrants refuse to stay, and that's Cyprus. That's because Cyprus refuses to unite families. Just because one person made it over the sea doesn't mean anyone else gets to follow. It's a little like our birthright citizenship: remove that, and you remove one of "draws" to the USA.

AFA learning English: it's not enuf, apparently, to require people to learn English to become citizens. If that were the case, why are our ballots printed in so many languages?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 3, 2015 5:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

SGG, my view of immigration has nothing to do with people's skin color, or what clothes they wear or what food they eat. Or what music they listen to. In fact, I used to have an Indian (from India) boyfriend, and my hubby is an immigrant, so I have no personal grotch against different cultures!

(OTOH, it IS important that they share the same ethics... or at least are willing to abide by our laws and morals, as well as learn the language.)

My problem with endless streams of immigrants has to do with JOBS.

Even if ... no, ESPECIALLY IF ... a nation has some kind of plan for its economic development, it simply cannot accept an endless stream of people who need many resources. Heck, the USA economy doesn't have jobs for 60% of job-aged people as it is; you think that illegal immigration isn't part of that problem? And at some point- certainly in the southwest- we may have already reached the limit of our PHYSICAL resources (water). Just because some nations overpopulate, does that mean the USA has to make the same mistake?

IF the First Nations had met up with Chris Columbus with the same attitude as mine, they would not have suffered a horrific genocide and loss of everything that was dear to them: their land, their way of life, their families, and their lives.

Theirs is not a happy-ending story for immigration. I wouldn't reference it, if I were you, as an argument for why we should have more immigrants.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Saturday, October 3, 2015 7:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

SGG

I think one can be for legal immigration and against illegal immigration.

In any case, regarding the 14th, I haven't really seen anything that argues we should keep it. It causes more problems than it solves.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, October 6, 2015 4:20 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

JOBS, you say. Sure we have a problem with the jobs situation. And why is that? Oh, let's see...........too many immigrants. Right, they come here and take all the jobs.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, let's see. Illegal immigrants take all the jobs. How does that happen? Do they come here, not knowing much about the territory, and just go and take jobs away from hard-working Americans? Or, is it more like this: Employers look to make more money, and, having the choice of paying Peter $10/hr they hire Pablo and Pay him $7/hr (plus Pablo doesn't know the state laws governing work related issues, so he works non stop for the full 10 hour work day - because his boss said so).

In my job, the maintenance crew work in fear of losing their job on a constant basis. I talk to them from time to time and one lady whispered to me "don't say anything, I could be fired" just for talking to me. She was recently transfered to another building. The woman was from Romania and lives in Jersey. Who hired her? And how did she learn of this job opening? The maintenance crew are made up of mostly Hispanic and European workers, with the supervisors made up of mostly European women. Who did they replace? Do you think they got the jobs through legal means? The electricians here are predominantly Italian. I could go on, but it's clear you have to have some "pull" in this country to get anywhere. That and $

My thought is this.....Employers hire illegal immigrants to squeeze out more profit, bottom line. That's why, to this day, Congress has made no effort to stem the tide of illegal immigrants. And they never will, too much $$$$$$$$$

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SGG, my view of immigration has nothing to do with people's skin color, or what clothes they wear or what food they eat. Or what music they listen to. In fact, I used to have an Indian (from India) boyfriend, and my hubby is an immigrant, so I have no personal grotch against different cultures!

(OTOH, it IS important that they share the same ethics... or at least are willing to abide by our laws and morals, as well as learn the language.)

My problem with endless streams of immigrants has to do with JOBS.

Even if ... no, ESPECIALLY IF ... a nation has some kind of plan for its economic development, it simply cannot accept an endless stream of people who need many resources. Heck, the USA economy doesn't have jobs for 60% of job-aged people as it is; you think that illegal immigration isn't part of that problem? And at some point- certainly in the southwest- we may have already reached the limit of our PHYSICAL resources (water). Just because some nations overpopulate, does that mean the USA has to make the same mistake?

IF the First Nations had met up with Chris Columbus with the same attitude as mine, they would not have suffered a horrific genocide and loss of everything that was dear to them: their land, their way of life, their families, and their lives.

Theirs is not a happy-ending story for immigration. I wouldn't reference it, if I were you, as an argument for why we should have more immigrants.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, October 6, 2015 4:42 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

True, tell that to the employers that knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
SGG

I think one can be for legal immigration and against illegal immigration.

In any case, regarding the 14th, I haven't really seen anything that argues we should keep it. It causes more problems than it solves.

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Tuesday, October 6, 2015 11:55 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
The maintenance crew are made up of mostly Hispanic and European workers, with the supervisors made up of mostly European women. Who did they replace? Do you think they got the jobs through legal means? The electricians here are predominantly Italian. I could go on, but it's clear you have to have some "pull" in this country to get anywhere. That and $

My thought is this.....Employers hire illegal immigrants to squeeze out more profit, bottom line. That's why, to this day, Congress has made no effort to stem the tide of illegal immigrants. And they never will, too much $$$$$$$$$

Well, you're right. And so, if I find my self on the side of greedy people want to extract money, not only out of the illegal immigrants that they hired but also THE CITIZENS WHO ARE NOW COMPETING FOR LOWER WAGES I have to ask myself .... what am I doing on THIS side of the fence???

I may not be able to do much about illegal immigration, on a personal level. Altho, when I DO hire help, I always ask for a Social Security card, a driver's license, auto insurance, and (of course) good English skills. That weeds out a lot of people! And because I'm a household employer, I can tell you that employers can check any presented SSN online, and verify on the spot whether it at least matches the name. There are other checks too, like asking for a greencard, or naturalization papers, etc. I usually don't have to go that far.

BUt just because it's fostered by a bunch of wealthy assholes who want more money .... does that mean I have to bow down before it?

I'm against those "free trade" agreements, too. They destroy jobs in almost EVERY nation they touch (except China) .... that means ours, Mexico's, Guatemala's etc.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2015 1:35 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

SGG

So, anyway ... I know you seem really reluctant to change the 14th Amendment, out of respect for the sanctity (as I see it) of the Constitution.

But after writing the Constitution (which itself contained provisions for its own amendment) - the very first thing they did was amend it with the Bill of Rights! (which are the first 10 amendments). And the 14th Amendment was ratified on July 9, 1868, nearly 100 years after the Constitution was originally adopted. Our methods of voting for Senators and representatives are now nothing like the original. Who gets to vote is nothing like the original. And so on.

Clearly those people were no respecters of the Constitution, because they kept fiddling with it!

I feel like you were taught a very deeply emotional lesson about what the Constitution means. And on an emotional level it makes sense to you. But for me, I read your posts, and I couldn't put it together. What are you defending when you defend the Constitution? I don't get it.

But I think I understand (feel) to some extent what you mean about 'freedom'. But that freedom I think comes from a highly mobile society, where, even now, everyone is on the move. People came from other countries to the east coast and settled the US. They moved from there to the heartland, and then further westward. And the immigrants and emigrants on the west coast moved eastward. Blacks from the south moved north. People from the country moved to the city. And then from the city to the suburb. And from one part of the country to the other.

Maybe what you see as freedom is lack of ties and roles and of being bound to a locale. People aren't as constrained by their families, by their villages, by their churches, by their social strata - or, more generally, by their socially defined (and enforced) roles.

But that could be easily said about Canada, England, Australia, France etc - and, since they're countries with more upward mobility that the US, make better examples about the freedom to change your identity (in the loosest sense).

In any case, you do seem to have a set of internal definitions that I'm not familiar with when it comes to, say religion and freedom.

The older I get the more I realize that we inhabit the same planet and use the same words, but we are constructed and operate very differently inside.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2015 3:34 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

"I may not be able to do much about illegal immigration, on a personal level. Altho, when I DO hire help, I always ask for a Social Security card, a driver's license, auto insurance, and (of course) good English skills. That weeds out a lot of people! And because I'm a household employer, I can tell you that employers can check any presented SSN online, and verify on the spot whether it at least matches the name. There are other checks too, like asking for a greencard, or naturalization papers, etc. I usually don't have to go that far."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly, that was going to be my next response/argument: that there are laws in place to combat the immigration situation (notice I didn't say epidemic). There seems to be a movement every time an influx of immigrants makes their way here, combined with economic issues, that trend towards "throwing the bums out." Reagan had a solution during his administration, but now, all of a sudden, it's a problem.
Still though, there are more greedy bastards than we can safely count. It has become part of the landscape.

I know a woman who works for a well-to-do family and she lives with them in an upper class part of town. She knows little English and has been here for some time.
She is the cook, nanny and chief bottle washer in the household. She has one child who lives here and one that lives in her native Brazil. I have not asked her if she is here legally because it's none of my business. Obviously, the family she works for have money, and so there you have it. You follow the law for your own purposes and so this family, in my neck of the woods, have their reasons for doing what they do.

There are other factors: Wages have been stagnated for a number of years, jobs have been taken by overqualified people and jobs have been sent overseas, among others.
It is not that easy, to just point a finger and place the blame squarely on the immigrants seeking a better life for their families.

More on this in my response to Kiki.

SGG

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Wednesday, October 7, 2015 4:32 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Well, I have studied the Constitution and believe it to be perfect. I am a purist at heart. The Framers carefully crafted this legend of history to secure a Revolution, one of thought, body and soul. I say this with all conviction. But now I'm saddened that, what the Founding Fathers foresaw, has been cheapened and diluted by small thinkers and men of greed.

I say that the Document was perfect, but man has fallen short of the original goal.
FREEDOM. Those countries that you mention, they are different, but the people of Canada, England, Australia, France, etc. come here to our shores in search of that freedom. Unique in all the world. And, as you say, contained within it's itself are provisions to amend and make corrections. It is to continue the Revolt that started some 238 years ago, and I dare say that there are those who have forgotten that.
Back then it was done with a musket and some bravery, today it is done with representation and a lot of bravery. It was written during a different era, with different issues and goals than the ones we have now.

Hence the provisions to amend whatever was necessary, but that has changed also due to ultra-rich individuals that wish to hi-jack the values that made this country what it is today. Religious interests, which was to be kept out of the body politic, has been manipulated to distort the meaning behind our most special rules of engagement. It is a blueprint to keep tyranny at bay. Yes, I respect our Constitution, a document that should be consulted and applied at all times. It is why the Framers wrote it. The 14th Amendment was ratified at a time when slavery had reared it's ugly head 100 years ago.

I am of the mind that perhaps "we, the people" should review and amend parts of the Constitution that no longer apply. Perhaps you and Signm are right, it has become obsolete and cumbersome. It, and the 2d Amendment, among others, have been long overdue for a re-positioning, a rethinking. A dusting off, if you will.

FYI: Just so you know, I'm not against religion or upholding the law. What I am against is hypocrisy. Everyone in this country is free to do as they please, within the law. I don't believe in forcing someone to believe as I do, and vice-versa. If it is fairly voted upon, I will join the majority. If I do not agree, then I have the choice of living with it, or not. To be able to come to a forum, such as this, and speak your mind freely. That is freedom to me. Pure and simple.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
SGG

So, anyway ... I know you seem really reluctant to change the 14th Amendment, out of respect for the sanctity (as I see it) of the Constitution.

But after writing the Constitution (which itself contained provisions for its own amendment) - the very first thing they did was amend it with the Bill of Rights! (which are the first 10 amendments). And the 14th Amendment was ratified on July 9, 1868, nearly 100 years after the Constitution was originally adopted. Our methods of voting for Senators and representatives are now nothing like the original. Who gets to vote is nothing like the original. And so on.

Clearly those people were no respecters of the Constitution, because they kept fiddling with it!

I feel like you were taught a very deeply emotional lesson about what the Constitution means. And on an emotional level it makes sense to you. But for me, I read your posts, and I couldn't put it together. What are you defending when you defend the Constitution? I don't get it.

But I think I understand (feel) to some extent what you mean about 'freedom'. But that freedom I think comes from a highly mobile society, where, even now, everyone is on the move. People came from other countries to the east coast and settled the US. They moved from there to the heartland, and then further westward. And the immigrants and emigrants on the west coast moved eastward. Blacks from the south moved north. People from the country moved to the city. And then from the city to the suburb. And from one part of the country to the other.

Maybe what you see as freedom is lack of ties and roles and of being bound to a locale. People aren't as constrained by their families, by their villages, by their churches, by their social strata - or, more generally, by their socially defined (and enforced) roles.

But that could be easily said about Canada, England, Australia, France etc - and, since they're countries with more upward mobility that the US, make better examples about the freedom to change your identity (in the loosest sense).

In any case, you do seem to have a set of internal definitions that I'm not familiar with when it comes to, say religion and freedom.

The older I get the more I realize that we inhabit the same planet and use the same words, but we are constructed and operate very differently inside.

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Wednesday, October 7, 2015 7:46 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

http://doonesbury.washingtonpost.com/strip/archive/2015/10/4

"If Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her!"
http://m.snopes.com/donald-trump-date-daughter/

"Sorry, losers and haters, but my I.Q. is one of the highest!"
www.ew.com/article/2015/08/18/josh-groban-sings-donald-trump-tweets

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, October 7, 2015 11:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"To be able to come to a forum, such as this, and speak your mind freely. That is freedom to me. Pure and simple."

And yet, many people from many countries have the exact same freedom. In fact, when you consider Germany's privacy laws, they have far more freedom from government AND CORPORATE AND INDIVIDUAL snooping on J Doe Citizen than we do.

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Thursday, October 8, 2015 5:22 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

All great empires get to that point in their history that they're surpassed by the once-conquered colonies. Apparently, it's better elsewhere.

This country has fallen in world view because of some stubborn knuckleheads that think their shit don't stink. Whenever the system works for others, they shout and proclaim "take America back" or "get our country back." My question is: Where did it go? "Play by the rules" they say, "Golden Rule" they say and you get your just rewards. Except now the tables have turned, all of a sudden, "this country has gone to shit."

Your right, It's better elsewhere. But for me, I'm staying put.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"To be able to come to a forum, such as this, and speak your mind freely. That is freedom to me. Pure and simple."

And yet, many people from many countries have the exact same freedom. In fact, when you consider Germany's privacy laws, they have far more freedom from government AND CORPORATE AND INDIVIDUAL snooping on J Doe Citizen than we do.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 12:04 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Quote:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward towards the light; but the laden traveler may never reach the end of it.

The Tombs of Atuan

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 5:27 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

Ah yes, good old Atuan.........................

Truer words have never been spoken.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward towards the light; but the laden traveler may never reach the end of it.
The Tombs of Atuan

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 5:30 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

By the way, in my previous reply, I was speaking of center members of Congress and a handful of Americans who think the country is worse off since Obama took office.

Members of FFF.net are excluded, since everyone here is for FREEDOM!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"To be able to come to a forum, such as this, and speak your mind freely. That is freedom to me. Pure and simple."

And yet, many people from many countries have the exact same freedom. In fact, when you consider Germany's privacy laws, they have far more freedom from government AND CORPORATE AND INDIVIDUAL snooping on J Doe Citizen than we do.

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Friday, October 9, 2015 7:28 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

When I see the word freedom in capital letters, I feel it is being used ironically. The feeling is doubled when the word is used by a politician in a speech.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Members of FFF.net are excluded, since everyone here is for FREEDOM!

SGG

“The men who came together to found the independent United States, dedicated to FREEDOM and equality, either held slaves or were willing to join hands with those who did,” the historian Edmund S. Morgan wrote. “None of them felt entirely comfortable about the fact, but neither did they feel responsible for it. Most of them had inherited both their slaves and their attachment to FREEDOM from an earlier generation, and they knew the two were not unconnected.”
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/
361631/

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Saturday, October 10, 2015 1:52 AM

SHINYGOODGUY

There is a point to be made, but it's of importance beyond the norm, not so ironic as you may think. Freedom in this country carries with it special meaning for me because we seem to be losing sight of it along the horizon. I always felt it was something you strive for, but never quite reach.

Seems to me the obstacle course has been altered somewhat. No matter, still gotta strive.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
When I see the word freedom in capital letters, I feel it is being used ironically. The feeling is doubled when the word is used by a politician in a speech.
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:

Members of FFF.net are excluded, since everyone here is for FREEDOM!

SGG
“The men who came together to found the independent United States, dedicated to FREEDOM and equality, either held slaves or were willing to join hands with those who did,” the historian Edmund S. Morgan wrote. “None of them felt entirely comfortable about the fact, but neither did they feel responsible for it. Most of them had inherited both their slaves and their attachment to FREEDOM from an earlier generation, and they knew the two were not unconnected.”
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/
361631/

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Friday, May 12, 2023 2:28 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

What Is the 14th Amendment—and Why Biden Is Considering It to Solve the Debt Ceiling

https://www.barrons.com/articles/14th-amendment-debt-ceiling-limit-exp
lained-903fdd6f

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