REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

No more decent Presidents?

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Sunday, July 3, 2022 11:04
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VIEWED: 4822
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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:31 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I noticed our newest Aircraft Carrier is the George H. W. Bush. With the extended terms of Obamination and Slick Willie, there are no more decent Presidents to name future Carriers for, other than George W. Bush.

The next Class is named after the likes of the despicable Gerald R. Ford.
Then another JFK.
Then another Enterprise (the 9th Navy ship so named).

Reagan is taken.
Teddy Roosevelt is taken.
Eisenhower is taken.
Lincoln and Washington are taken.
Even Truman is taken.
Even the despicable FDR was used before.
Maybe Andrew Johnson would be a candidate.

Is Nixon a possibility?

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:39 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Nay to Nixon, but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:08 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Even the despicable FDR was used before.


'Despicable'?

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 9:32 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Nay to Nixon, but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!



You gotta be kidding me? Your joking right?

si shen



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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 10:25 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Nay to Nixon, but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!









“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 10:52 PM

WISHIMAY


I'd love to see a ship named after a women, but I think I'd help sink it if it were named Palin...

Mah Gawd I can't STAND that woman... She opens her mouth and I just wanna stuff a sock in it.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:36 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


And the Left's war on women continues.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:51 AM

BYTEMITE


All our presidents have been kinda crapshoots if not outright terrible. Washington: refused to be king, good, native-american killing federalist, bad. Adams: Managed to weasel us out of a crippling debt to France, good, Alien and Sedition Act, bad. Jefferson: Louisiana Purchase, good, hypocrisy about slavery, bad. Lincoln: freed the slaves, good, bloodiest war in US history, bad. Wilson: Tried to keep us out of WW1, good, got into WW1 anyway resulting in current Middle East configuration and clusterfuck, bad. Hoover: great depression, prohibition. FDR: Welfare reforms and social security, opinion varies, WW2 and atomic age, bad. Eisenhower: tried to warn us what was happening to the government, good, but he also used the Red Scare and was for the interventionism that led us to our current hated busybody status, bad. JFK: set us on the path to the moon, good, but his personal life was a liability that was used against us, bad. The rest are basically completely unremarkable, whatever they'd accomplished for good or bad completely undone within a decade.

Now there isn't any candidate out there that doesn't have blood money staining their hands. All dancing on the strings. And people wonder why I don't vote.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:00 AM

CHRISISALL


I agree completely, Byte.
Except about voting. Best to try & get the least harmful asswipe possible in. IMO, anyway.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:53 AM

THGRRI


Gotta Vote.

si shen



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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:02 AM

BYTEMITE


Ugh. The insistence upon voting is now propaganda about "civic duty" that really only perpetuates the injustices and corruption of the current system.

Anyone who votes is indirectly enabling the deaths of millions in foreign wars as well as a system that puts the interests of lobbyists, businesses, and the government before citizens.

I don't vote.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:03 AM

CHRISISALL


Well when you put it THAT way.....

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:33 AM

DEVERSE

Hey, Ive been in a firefight before! Well, I was in a fire. Actually, I was fired from a fry-cook opportunity.


Quote:

Originally posted by Wishimay:
I'd love to see a ship named after a women, but I think I'd help sink it if it were named Palin...

Mah Gawd I can't STAND that woman... She opens her mouth and I just wanna stuff a sock in it.



I always wondered why they never considered naming a ship after Grace Murray Hopper. I learned FORTRAN from her at the Nuclear Propulsion School and considering what she did for the USN they should have named a state after her.


Oh let the sun beat down upon my face;
With stars to fill my dream;
I am a traveler of both time and space;
To be where I have been

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:


All our presidents have been kinda crapshoots if not outright terrible. Washington: refused to be king, good, native-american killing federalist, bad. Adams: Managed to weasel us out of a crippling debt to France, good, Alien and Sedition Act, bad. Jefferson: Louisiana Purchase, good, hypocrisy about slavery, bad. Lincoln: freed the slaves, good, bloodiest war in US history, bad. Wilson: Tried to keep us out of WW1, good, got into WW1 anyway resulting in current Middle East configuration and clusterfuck, bad. Hoover: great depression, prohibition. FDR: Welfare reforms and social security, opinion varies, WW2 and atomic age, bad. Eisenhower: tried to warn us what was happening to the government, good, but he also used the Red Scare and was for the interventionism that led us to our current hated busybody status, bad. JFK: set us on the path to the moon, good, but his personal life was a liability that was used against us, bad. The rest are basically completely unremarkable, whatever they'd accomplished for good or bad completely undone within a decade.


Thanks for the history lesson Honey Boo Boo. Now go finish your bowl of Fruity Pebbles.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:34 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well when you put it THAT way.....



Look, I don't blame you guys for voting. The idea that you could have an effect over anything that happens in the world is like a siren's call. It's well meaning. It's admirable.

Even if it's a grotesque horse and pony show and even if any person you might elect is an asshole who will do the exact opposite from what you'd want them to do and dissemble to your face as to why.

I just can't get past the lie of it. These people do NOT represent US.


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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:40 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Thanks for the history lesson Honey Boo Boo. Now go finish your bowl of Fruity Pebbles.



That was pretty knee jerk. Do you even disagree with anything, or are you just insulted in principle by my utter lack of respect for any authority?

If the later, get used to it. You're gonna see a lot more where that comes from as the US government continues its downward spiral. Politicians are friggin' useless, and that includes presidents.

Also, I like fruity pebbles, though cocoa pebbles are better. And despite the social stigma, rednecks are human beings and generally level-headed understandable results of the agrarian and rural communities they live in. Mocking rednecks smacks of intellectual elitism. I'm not sure if I'm even supposed to be insulted.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:03 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
These people do NOT represent US.

Well, would YOU represent us? 'Us' always needs stuff. Corporations would be the people lining your POCKETS. You do the work for those that pay you, kinda how Capitalist economies work.
*wipes up the drooling snarky sarcasm*

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:27 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Well, would YOU represent us?


Heyzeus Hell No. Represent your own damn self, I can guarantee it'll go better for you.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:41 PM

CHRISISALL


Anarchist.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:25 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Ugh. The insistence upon voting is now propaganda about "civic duty" that really only perpetuates the injustices and corruption of the current system.

Anyone who votes is indirectly enabling the deaths of millions in foreign wars as well as a system that puts the interests of lobbyists, businesses, and the government before citizens.

I don't vote.



Because angrily posting online will change things?



“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”? Isaac Asimov

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Because angrily posting online will change things?


About as much as voting does, yes.
In fact, given the topic in question (SOPA for example) sometimes MORE so.

-F

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 1:54 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by FREMDFIRMA:
About as much as voting does, yes.
In fact, given the topic in question (SOPA for example) sometimes MORE so.

-F



Heh. Bot attacks also work pretty good if it's internet related. Some of that going on when we all did the black out.

The internet's also great for real world organizing, the trick is staying one step ahead of the authority figures (like how some Middle East countries have started restricting access to Twitter, so now protesters have to move on to a different tactic) or falling under the radar.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Nay to Nixon, but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!



You gotta be kidding me? Your joking right?

si shen





Why, because I didn't list ONE old white guy ?

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 6:35 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I wonder whether you all have fantasies of a president who is akin to a superhero, with superhero solutions to fixing complex problems within a system that's basically quite dysfunctional.

I mean let's face it, if you make a decision, any decision, and it actually gets implemented, it's going to be opposed by a hefty chunk of people. Even if 2/3 of the population approve then that's a million people who oppose and even if half of those are vocal in their dissent that's half a million flooding social media with complaints.

And that's if legislation gets passed. There's the other issue of a system that's highly partisan, subject to the desires of multiple, diverse, powerful, wealthy interest groups who are likely to oppose any change that is suggested.

So what do you see as a decent President. Someone who has 100% support of the USA's 317 million people (here's me looking up your population), and who can successfully navigate his way through your political system so that he can actually govern, or president or whatever the hell you consider him to do>

Even if JC existed and came back to earth, he'd struggle.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:13 PM

BYTEMITE


If Jesus himself came back and became the US president, I assure you, I WOULD find something wrong with his policies.

For one because my dislike of authority extends to religious authority, and for two because you don't develop good foreign policy if everyone is kissing your ass.

I'll burn in hell before I let anyone in this world go unchallenged, unquestioned, and unshriven. People MUST be allowed to think for themselves. I think it's such an important role that I would throw myself into the lake of fire of my own volition.

And that's even before I get into the many issues I have with his religion, his dad, and the apocalypse that his return would herald.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Nay to Nixon, but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!



You got me there. One could only dream....

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:25 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
One could only dream....

Dream a little nightmare.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Well when you put it THAT way.....



Look, I don't blame you guys for voting. The idea that you could have an effect over anything that happens in the world is like a siren's call. It's well meaning. It's admirable.

Even if it's a grotesque horse and pony show and even if any person you might elect is an asshole who will do the exact opposite from what you'd want them to do and dissemble to your face as to why.

I just can't get past the lie of it. These people do NOT represent US.



Of the elections I've voted in (almost every one), some have been decided by 1 or 2 votes.
My senior Senator represents me, and I did vote for him. That is the only Public Office he has held, or ran for.

Yeah, my junior Senator has never represented me, and has told me so - not as State Assembly Rep, nor State Senator, nor U.S. Rep, or Senator.
When Paul Ryan was my Rep. he represented me.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
One could only dream....

Dream a little nightmare.


Well, on that front might I suggest a candidate which meets both requirements ?



I'd vote for her.

-F

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:33 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

... but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!



I'd like to see a USS Shelley Fabares.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:33 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Hey JSF, I'm still wondering why you called FDR despicable.

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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:41 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
If Jesus himself came back and became the US president, I assure you, I WOULD find something wrong with his policies.

For one because my dislike of authority extends to religious authority, and for two because you don't develop good foreign policy if everyone is kissing your ass.

I'll burn in hell before I let anyone in this world go unchallenged, unquestioned, and unshriven. People MUST be allowed to think for themselves. I think it's such an important role that I would throw myself into the lake of fire of my own volition.

And that's even before I get into the many issues I have with his religion, his dad, and the apocalypse that his return would herald.




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Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

... but I'd love to see a USS Palin, Cruz or West!



I'd like to see a USS Shelley Fabares.



Yeah, I often forget how old you really are.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, June 20, 2014 12:10 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by DEVERSE:

I always wondered why they never considered naming a ship after Grace Murray Hopper. I learned FORTRAN from her at the Nuclear Propulsion School and considering what she did for the USN they should have named a state after her.



DEVERSE, SHH. This isn't a thread for sanity, we're talking politics
I'm sure there are many honorable and knowledgeable people to name ships after, unfortunately you are talking to a nation of people primarily obsessed with the illusion of power and vanity.

And I'm with Byte. Voting is a pawn of a gov't that wants it's people to think they have a power when the whole show is rigged. Vote, don't vote, no policy is changed by will of the people.(P.S. that WILL is ridiculously moronic and prolly shouldn't be imposed, BTW)

You don't think it's all manipulated by people that have waaay more money and power than anyone here, you're just a weee bit in denial.

BTW, I mentioned that I thought my property taxes were just a few hundred dollars on here one day (turns out it's about a thousand-not that much relatively speaking, and not enough to really care about) but that month I got one of those census surveys that you HAVE to fill out (only sent them to a scattering of households) wanting to know how much my property taxes were and when did we leave for work.
You can't tell me that wasn't a result of what I said. They even called back several times to try to get the info verified over the phone and I wouldn't do it. My answers may or may not have been completely accurate, BTW...

It's all rigged. They've had computers since before most of us here were BORN. You just can't tell me we aren't all catalogued and monitored.

Hi, creepy monitoring people

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Friday, June 20, 2014 11:12 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yeah, I often forget how old you really are.


There are drugs that can help with your memory loss. Just watch out for the side effects, like man boobs and such.

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Friday, June 20, 2014 11:17 AM

THGRRI


Quote:


And I'm with Byte. Voting is a pawn of a gov't that wants it's people to think they have a power when the whole show is rigged. Vote, don't vote, no policy is changed by will of the people.(P.S. that WILL is ridiculously moronic and prolly shouldn't be imposed, BTW)

You don't think it's all manipulated by people that have waaay more money and power than anyone here, you're just a weee bit in denial.



I understand what you are saying about people in power but one person, like him or not made a long list of changes possible by getting involved. Most do nothing when it comes to getting involved and that is why there is so much wrong in the world. People standing united in mass can still make all the changes necessary. Look what this one guy pushed for and got. The list is much more incredible than this because it involves so many protections like seatbelts that are not listed or spelled out for us.

A long history

Just some of the organizations Ralph Nader founded or helped start:

?American Antitrust Institute
?Appleseed Foundation
?Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
?Aviation Consumer Action Project
?Buyers Up
?Capitol Hill News Service
?Center for Auto Safety
?Center for Insurance Research
?Center for Justice and Democracy
?Center for Science in the Public Interest
?Center for Study of Responsive Law
?Center for Women Policy Studies
?Citizen Action Group
?Citizen Advocacy Center
?Citizen Utility Boards
?Citizen Works
?Clean Water Action Project
?Congress Project
?Congress Watch
?Connecticut Citizen Action Group
?Corporate Accountability Research Group
?Critical Mass Energy Project
?Democracy Rising
?Disability Rights Center
?Equal Justice Foundation
?Essential Information
?FANS (Fight to Advance the Nation's Sports)
?Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights
?Freedom of Information Clearinghouse
?Georgia Legal Watch
?Global Trade Watch
?Health Research Group
?Litigation Group
?Multinational Monitor
?National Citizen's Coalition for Nursing Home Reform
?National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
?National Insurance Consumer Organization
?Ohio Public Interest Action Group
?Organization for Competitive Markets
?Pension Rights Center
?Princeton Project 55
?PROD - truck safety
?Public Citizen
?Retired Professionals Action Group
?Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest
?Student Public Interest Research Groups nationwide
?Tax Reform Research Group
?Telecommunications Research and Action Center
?The Visitor's Center
?Trial Lawyers for Public Justice

Instrumental in the passing of the following legislation:

?Clean Air Act
?Clean Water Act
?Consumer credit disclosure law
?Consumer Product Safety Act
?Co-Op Bank Bill
?Federal Coal Mine Health and Safety Act
?Foreign Corrupt Practices Act
?Freedom of Information Act
?Funeral home cost disclosure law
?Law establishing Environmental Protection Agency
?Medical Devices safety
?Mine Health and Safety Act
?Mobile home safety
?National Automobile and Highway Traffic Safety Act
?National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act
?Natural Gas Pipeline Safety Act
?Nuclear power safety
?Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA)
?Pension protection law
?Safe Water Drinking Act
?Tire safety & grading disclosure law
?Whistleblower Protection Act
?Wholesome Meat Act
?Wholesome Poultry Product Act


si shen



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Friday, June 20, 2014 4:00 PM

WISHIMAY


Yeah, you know how many people I could rally to a cause, even if I really really wanted to? Maybe one. Even in my own family (because I lack certain dangly bits between my legs, and you'll have to trust me on the whole male worship thing in hubbys and my family here, but it's at ridiculous levels).

Nader came from a time when people rallied to causes. Now people throw money at Kickstarter or press "like" and go about their lives. There's only one thing I would ever get behind and that's free medical sterilization for the entire world, and mandatory for anyone convicted of child abuse.
Now, WHO'S WITH ME?

I guess I could put a sign about it in my front yard, but then my kid's best friend (who comes from a catholic family with 6 other kids) might have a problem with that...

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Friday, June 20, 2014 4:05 PM

THGRRI


It's all about when push comes to shove whshimay. When push comes to shove people will rally.

si shen



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Friday, June 20, 2014 4:35 PM

WISHIMAY


I dunno, I've noticed that people take a fair bit of pushing these days...

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Friday, June 20, 2014 5:05 PM

THGRRI


True

si shen



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Friday, June 20, 2014 5:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Hey JSF, I'm still wondering why you called FDR despicable.



Knew the U.S. needed to stop the Nazis or the world would be overrun. Campaigned in 1940 as Isolationist to convince voters that he would keep America out of WWII, allowing Nazis to continue The Holocaust as they waged war on 5 fronts, winning on all 5.
In December 1941 found out Japan was going to make a surprise attack on Territory of Hawaii, Pearl Harbor. Had Aircraft Carriers pulled out of Pearl for the day of Dec 7th to cruise safely away from the Japanese attack, while sacrificing Armed Forces Servicemen in order to galvanized American sentiment and create outrage, and claim he knew nothing - thus using the military as his political pawns.
In 1944 when Republicans nominated liberal Dewey as their Presidential candidate, he was required by law to be read in on Top Secret programs like the Japanese code-breaking program which had given FDR the information prior to the Pearl massacre. Amid wartime, Dewey knew that exposing America's ability to break the Japanese code would debilitate our fighting chances, and result in many more American deaths, but would expose FDR's sacrificing of Pearl as deceitful, despicable, and treasonous, and ensure Dewey's victory. OR, he could keep the secret, giving U.S. Forces a fighting chance to win, and hope the electorate would see the light and understand what a weasel FDR was.
Dewey chose option 2, the honorable thing to do.
The despicable weasel FDR won.
During the fighting and liberation of Europe, FDR gave specific direction not to interfere with the execution of Jews, either by Nazis or Russians, as well as the non-jewish genocide by the Russians.

Yes, treasonous FDR did pull the wool over the eyes of most Americans. Doesn't mean he should be celebrated for it.

You might note that the Carrier FDR was from that era, when his influence to bend/break the truth still reigned, but once the truth was discovered there was never again a Carrier named after him. The Carrier Roosevelt was for Teddy. Seen any Navy Ships named Benedict Arnold lately?

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Friday, June 20, 2014 8:08 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Most of that is baseless speculation or just flat out wrong. Sounds like you got your hands on one of those books about WWII that makes reckless conspiracy claims and uses distortion and politicized revisionism to create its own facts. But thanks anyhow.

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Friday, June 20, 2014 9:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yeah, I often forget how old you really are.


There are drugs that can help with your memory loss. Just watch out for the side effects, like man boobs and such.



Oops, didn't mean to say " I often forget " , I should have said I'm perpetually indifferent.

I don't care.

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Friday, June 20, 2014 9:15 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
It's all about when push comes to shove whshimay. When push comes to shove people will rally.

si shen







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Friday, June 20, 2014 9:25 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Yeah, I often forget how old you really are.


There are drugs that can help with your memory loss. Just watch out for the side effects, like man boobs and such.



Oops, didn't mean to say " I often forget " , I should have said I'm perpetually indifferent.

I don't care.


I'm going to write to my Rep. and Senators asking them to support a USS Jane Fonda.

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Friday, June 20, 2014 10:29 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
It's all about when push comes to shove whshimay. When push comes to shove people will rally.

si shen





Sorry didn't like the video, it kinda sucked.

si shen



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Friday, June 20, 2014 10:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The video did not 'suck'.

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Friday, June 20, 2014 10:38 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The video did not 'suck'.



It really did. I did not just say that to be disagreeable.

si shen



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Monday, June 23, 2014 8:33 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Most of that is baseless speculation or just flat out wrong. Sounds like you got your hands on one of those books about WWII that makes reckless conspiracy claims and uses distortion and politicized revisionism to create its own facts. But thanks anyhow.


The speculation was the FDR propaganda that was spewed prior to the actual history being declassified after 50 years.
Which do you think was "flat out wrong?"
Distortion was between the acts and the declassification.
Revisionism is often required after the revelation of facts.

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Wednesday, June 25, 2014 11:23 AM

BYTEMITE


Okay, in fairness I hate all presidents, but that thing on FDR was a little all over.

Was he trying to keep us out of the war to support the Nazis, or was he looking for any possible way to spark outrage in the American public by letting the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor?

Anti-Jewish sentiment was pretty common in those days, so I wouldn't be surprised by a policy to look the other way at what the Nazis were doing, and I've seen hints that some of the higher ups in Britain, France, and US knew what was going on. Heck, the Russians even kinda participated. Not right, but lots of things people did in those days because of prejudices weren't right.

But in terms of whether Roosevelt was deliberately keeping us out of war or trying to manufacture a reason to get into it, those things aren't exactly synonymous. Gotta pick one or the other.

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