REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"How Gay Marriage Won"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, March 30, 2013 06:16
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Thursday, March 28, 2013 11:02 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


It hasn't...at least not where marriage is concerned...yet, but I have little doubt history will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. This author has an interesting take on the progression:
Quote:

Eager to be eyewitnesses to history, people camped for days in the dismal cold, shivering in the slanting shadow of the Capitol dome, to claim tickets for the Supreme Court’s historic oral arguments on same-sex marriage. Some hoped that the Justices would extend marriage rights; others prayed that they would not. When at last the doors of the white marble temple swung open on March 26 for the first of two sessions devoted to the subject, the lucky ones found seats in time to hear Justice Anthony Kennedy — author of two important earlier decisions in favor of gay rights and likely a key vote this time as well — turn the tables on the attorney defending the traditionalist view. Charles Cooper was extolling heterosexual marriage as the best arrangement in which to raise children when Kennedy interjected: What about the roughly 40,000 children of gay and lesbian couples living in California? “They want their parents to have full recognition and full status,” Kennedy said. “The voice of those children is important in this case, don’t you think?” Nearly as ominous for the folks against change was the fact that Chief Justice John Roberts plunged into a discussion of simply dismissing the California case. That would let stand a lower-court ruling, and same-sex couples could add America’s most populous state to the growing list of jurisdictions where they can be lawfully hitched.

A court still stinging from controversies over Obamacare, campaign financing and the 2000 presidential election may be leery of removing an issue from voters’ control. Yet no matter what the Justices decide after withdrawing behind their velvet curtain, the courtroom debate — and the period leading up to it — made clear that we have all been eyewitnesses to history. In recent days, weeks and months, the verdict on same-sex marriage has been rendered by rapidly shifting public opinion and by the spectacle of swing-vote politicians scrambling to keep up with it. With stunning speed, a concept dismissed even by most gay-rights leaders just 20 years ago is now embraced by half or more of all Americans, with support among young voters running as high as 4 to 1. Beginning with the Netherlands in 2001, countries from Argentina to Belgium to Canada — along with nine states and the District of Columbia — have extended marriage rights to lesbian and gay couples.

True, most of the remaining states have passed laws or constitutional amendments reserving marriage for opposite-sex partners. And Brian Brown, president of the National Organization for Marriage, declares that the fight to defend the traditional definition is only beginning. “Our opponents know this, which is why they are hoping the Supreme Court will cut short a debate they know they will ultimately lose if the political process and democracy are allowed to run their course,” he said.

But that confidence is rare even among the traditionalists. Exit polls in November showed that 83% of voters believe that same-sex marriage will be legal nationwide in the next five to 10 years, according to a bipartisan analysis of the data. Like a dam that springs a little leak that turns into a trickle and then bursts into a flood, the wall of public opinion is crumbling. That’s not to say we’ve reached the end of shunning, homophobia or anti-gay violence. It does, however, suggest that Americans who are allowed by law to fall in love, share their lives and raise children together will, in the not too distant future, be allowed to get married.

Through 2008, no major presidential nominee favored same-sex marriage. But in 2012, the newly converted supporter Barack Obama sailed to an easy victory over Mitt Romney, himself an avowed fan of Modern Family — a hit TV show in which a devoted gay couple negotiates the perils of parenthood with deadpan hilarity. When even a conservative Mormon Republican can delight in a sympathetic portrayal of same-sex parenthood, a working consensus is likely at hand.

Down the ballot, elected leaders who once faithfully pledged to protect tradition have lined up to announce their conversions. Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio said he changed his mind after learning that his son is gay. Red-state Democrats Claire McCaskill of Missouri and Jon Tester of Montana, both skilled political tightrope walkers, also switched, as did Virginia’s Mark Warner. They joined Hillary Clinton and her husband, the former President who signed the Defense of Marriage Act into law during his 1996 re-election bid but is now calling on the Supreme Court to undo his mistake.

Such switchers have plenty of company among their fellow citizens. According to a recent survey by the Pew Research Center, 1 in 7 American adults say their initial opposition to same-sex marriage has turned to support. The picture of a nation of immovable factions dug into ideological trenches is belied by this increasingly uncontroversial controversy. Yesterday’s impossible now looks like tomorrow’s inevitable. The marriage license is the last defensible distinction between the rights of gay and straight couples, Cooper told the Justices as he steeled himself to defend that line. But most generals will tell you that when you’re down to your last trench, you are likely to lose the battle.

What’s most striking about this seismic social shift — as rapid and unpredictable as any turn in public opinion on record — is that it happened with very little planning. In fact, there was a lot of resistance from the top. Neither political party gave a hint of support before last year, nor was marriage part of the so-called homosexual agenda so worrisome to social-conservative leaders. For decades, prominent gay-rights activists dismissed the right to marry as a quixotic, even dangerous, cause and gave no support to the men and women at the grassroots who launched the uphill movement.

Instead, the impetus has come from disparate forces in seemingly unconnected realms: courtrooms, yes, but also hospitals, nurseries, libraries and soundstages. The rise of same-sex marriage from joke to commonplace is a story of converging strands of history. Changes in law and politics, medicine and demographics, popular culture and ivory-tower scholarship all added momentum to produce widespread changes of heart.

The Beginning
You could start the story as far back as Adam and Eve, tracing the twists and turns of society’s struggle to order and regulate the natural imperatives of sex. For some social conservatives, it would be a tale as simple as the old line that God didn’t make Adam and Steve. But subtler Bible scholars — the sort who wonder why Saul was so miffed at David for “choosing” Jonathan for a love “more wonderful than the love of women” — would say these matters have always been complicated.

Instead, start on May 18, 1970, when a young Air Force veteran named Jack Baker visited the Hennepin County clerk’s office in Minneapolis with his boyfriend of three years, librarian Michael McConnell. Neatly dressed in coats and ties — “neither is a limp-wristed sissy,” Look magazine noted — they filed an application for a marriage license, which was promptly denied. The episode was generally dismissed as a stunt, another strange happening in those days of hippies, riots and Woodstock. Homosexuality was still classified as a mental illness by the American Psychiatric Association, and even University of Minnesota professor Allan Spear, a gay-rights pioneer, called Baker and McConnell “the lunatic fringe.” The publicity cost McConnell his job, while Baker, a law student, filed suit.

In an opinion that cited the Book of Genesis, among other authorities, the Minnesota Supreme Court rejected his claim, and his appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court was turned down “for want of a substantial federal question.” But Baker was onto something. His suit, for the first time, linked the idea of same-sex marriage to an emerging line of high-court precedents establishing a right to privacy in matters of sexual intimacy. Analysis of the timeline continues at http://swampland.time.com/2013/03/28/how-gay-marriage-won/2/]

"Pride and Prejudice: An Interactive Timeline of the Fight for Gay Rights" can be found at http://nation.time.com/2013/03/26/pride-and-prejudice-an-interactive-t
imeline-of-the-fight-for-gay-rights/#ixzz2OrzN0VWJ

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Friday, March 29, 2013 2:49 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I really don't understand what the big deal about civil unions is, particularly from a tax standpoint since single people are screwed so bad on taxes that your average adult single male is getting butt-raped by good 'ol Uncle Sam so hard that they might as well be getting the pleasure of a real prostate massage if only to save themselves a few thousand bucks a year.

My bottom line... If you can find a church that will marry you, more power to you. Just don't allow the Government to force all churches to recognize the act.

What I don't want to see is two dudes in the mall walking hand in hand, or (seriously gross) two dudes making out in public. Then again, I think I could do without seeing 90% of the PDA I see with hetro couples because most people are ugly to slightly better than average looking and who really wants to see that either?

I seriously don't believe that gay or lesbian couples should be able to adopt kids either. Let's put aside the nature/nurture argument and the idea that those kids will likely end up gay because of all of the things their parents say or do... What about what the asshole kids in school will put them through? Kids, generally speaking, are dicks... My childhood was tough enough as it was without having to go to school explaining my two dads or my two moms.


On face value at least, I'm on your side here Nik... I'd vote for gay marriage in my state so long as they couldn't force a church to perform the ceremony or recognize it.


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Friday, March 29, 2013 4:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I really don't understand what the big deal about civil unions is, particularly from a tax standpoint since single people are screwed so bad on taxes that your average adult single male is getting butt-raped by good 'ol Uncle Sam so hard that they might as well be getting the pleasure of a real prostate massage if only to save themselves a few thousand bucks a year.

My bottom line... If you can find a church that will marry you, more power to you. Just don't allow the Government to force all churches to recognize the act.



What about other religious-affiliated businesses? Hospitals run by the Catholic Church, for instance - can they bar the spouse of a gay person from visiting or from making critical healthcare decisions in the event the other spouse is unable to do so?

If your church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage, that's one thing. But if you're taken to the ER and they won't recognize your spouse as your spouse, that's a whole different set of circumstances.

Quote:


What I don't want to see is two dudes in the mall walking hand in hand, or (seriously gross) two dudes making out in public. Then again, I think I could do without seeing 90% of the PDA I see with hetro couples because most people are ugly to slightly better than average looking and who really wants to see that either?



I understand that, but I assure you that it's a problem with you, not a problem with them. It used to weird me out to see two dudes kissing, but I asked myself why that was. Turns out it was just something I found odd, unexpected, a bit shocking; and then I realized that it's an expression of love, and then I was okay with it. Yeah, it still throws me a little bit to see it, but I don't feel the urge to outlaw it or ban others from being able to show their affection for each other.

I notice you don't mention having any problem with two women kissing or making out, though.

Quote:


I seriously don't believe that gay or lesbian couples should be able to adopt kids either. Let's put aside the nature/nurture argument and the idea that those kids will likely end up gay because of all of the things their parents say or do...



You do realize that pretty much every gay kid came from a straight couple, right? I mean, there might be a tiny percentage that didn't, but I'd wager it's vanishingly small. As so many have pointed out, gay couples generally don't reproduce, so all those gays have to be coming from somewhere, and I'm pretty sure Pottery Barn and Banana Republic can't manufacture all of them.

Quote:

What about what the asshole kids in school will put them through? Kids, generally speaking, are dicks... My childhood was tough enough as it was without having to go to school explaining my two dads or my two moms.


So, for perspective, let's note for the record that you're okay with banning gay couples from adopting *because of what MIGHT happen* at some point in the future at the hands of some nefarious unknown mystery person...

... But you're 100% against any kind of gun control measures because you don't think we should be able to legislate based on what MIGHT happen at some point in the future at the hands of some nefarious unknown evil mystery person?

Be sure to tell us all again how freedom-loving you are.

Quote:


On face value at least, I'm on your side here Nik... I'd vote for gay marriage in my state so long as they couldn't force a church to perform the ceremony or recognize it.



So far as I know, there is no serious effort to force any church to perform the ceremony or recognize it. Conversely, would you support any church hierarchy banning any of their member churches from performing or recognizing such ceremonies if they so decided? Say the Baptists decide en masse that they will not perform or recognize such ceremonies; would you support a break-away Baptist church deciding it *would* perform gay marriages, or would you side with the larger church in forcing their member church to toe the line?



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Friday, March 29, 2013 7:15 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I hate trying to make quotes "work" Kwick, so I'll just use numbers...

1. Hospitals not run by (see: "owned" by HMO's) would not be required to fix anyone up they didn't want to. Personally, I don't see the big deal here... If you think you're gay and you live life in some ho-bunk town without a doctor that would treat gays in their HMO, you either have relegated yourself to a very short shelf-life, or you are just too inbred to look for something better.

The truth is, you probably have better overall healthcare than 50% of the people will have when Obamacare comes down, but if you're gay, you're screwed.

You should run to Chicago or your nearest Liberal douche main city as fast as your Leukemia ridden bones will take you before you die of aids.




2. Seriously man... two girls making out is pretty grotesque today to me too. It was pretty fucking hot when I got my girlfriend to make out with her first girl when we were all 20, but those girls that do it all the time for money or enjoy it are just gross. That's just me though.... I enjoyed the control I had over girls I dated at the time. I can guarantee that any girl I dated that kissed another girl was an ex soon afterward.... the fact that my girls on "the other side" had nearly a 100% rate of keeping them there made the decision easier for me.

3. It's all a power thing to me Kwick....

Under my watch, at least 10 guys and 30 girls have "gone the other way" and done things they'd never thought they would do.

Sure... maybe there are John and John Cleaver homos out there, but the fact is, I've made just as many homos out of straight guys as I've made ex-wives eat pussy for the rest of their lives....

I'm only speaking from experience....

When you get to know me, male or female, I can make you do things you might have found aberrant only a week ago.



So maybe I'm just judging the sexual thing on me....

Fair enough Kwick....

At the same time, I admit that I could fuck up a man or woman's mind so bad that they'd forget their own name by the end of a weekend. Surely they shouldn't be able to hold a loaded gun without the safety.

I guarantee you that if we spent one week together, although I'd never touch your wife/gf physically, she'd be addicted to me and the pleasure I could bring.

It's not a knock on you, and it's surely not hubris on my part.

An addiction is an addiction... and I promise that I'm much better for her and much cheaper than cocaine




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Friday, March 29, 2013 8:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

1. Hospitals not run by (see: "owned" by HMO's) would not be required to fix anyone up they didn't want to. Personally, I don't see the big deal here... If you think you're gay and you live life in some ho-bunk town without a doctor that would treat gays in their HMO, you either have relegated yourself to a very short shelf-life, or you are just too inbred to look for something better.




So in the same vein, should a doctor have to treat someone who doesn't believe in evolution?

After all, if they've rejected science, then why should they be offered the benefits of science? Can we withhold vaccines from creationists, based on their beliefs? If evolution isn't real, then no virus could mutate, and no vaccines would ever be needed, nor could they possibly work.


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Friday, March 29, 2013 2:28 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)





Oh, and this:









"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Saturday, March 30, 2013 6:16 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Amen to that! Mike,

I can't even READ the shit that guy writes--and yes, in this thread I actually did try, believe it or not... He actually thinks you're talking about hospitals TREATING homosexuals...??

How you can respond to him as if you're communicating with a sane, sober human being, defeats me...



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