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"Racism is dead in America." Bullshit

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 08:17
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Friday, March 16, 2012 9:47 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Trayvon a 17 year old African American boy was shot in a gated community where his father lives in Florida. He was shot by a self-appointed White Community Watch Captain who was walking around with a gun. Zimmerman the community watch person decided Trayvon looked suspicious. All the boy had was candy and a drink. He was not bothering anyone. He was simply walking from the store to his father's house. So we have to ask ourselves what about the boy made him "look" suspicious? Zimmerman approached the boy after calling the police and the police telling him not to follow the boy.

Disregarding the police Zimmerman approached the boy with a gun and the boy attempted to defend himself. Now Zimmerman who weighed about 100 pounds more than the boy and had a gun is claimng self defense. He shot and killed this innocent boy. The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-761553?hpt=hp_bn2

Nobody's posted about this one, perhaps because it represents a common enough occurrence that we don't pay much attention. But I've been following it, and it's not only outrageous, it's another example of the fact that racisim isn't only alive and well in America, it's allowed.

People on the right keep bitching about the left "playing the race card". It's not a card, it's a reality, and denying it is a political ploy, nothing else.
Quote:

Many claim that racism served as a motivation in the shooting. 'It points to what researchers have termed unconscious racism,' she said. 'People are not even aware of their biases. The fact that people identify with the shooter over a murdered child is disturbing.' Same
It's a lot more than "disturbing" to me, it's horrific. Will this ever change? Not until people stop claiming that "racism is dead in America".

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Friday, March 16, 2012 9:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

This is terrible.

Even if we imagine that the perpetrator is a hard-core racist, I find the story shocking.

This is some wrong-thinking vigilante B.S. with a firearm. You can't just go around hunting human beings because you feel empowered with a firearm in your hand. Jesus.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Friday, March 16, 2012 10:10 AM

STORYMARK


Could be racism, could just be some idiot too eager to use his gun.

I believe we have a member here (who thankfully rarely posts anymore) who is just that type - looking for a reason.

Spoon!

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Friday, March 16, 2012 10:13 AM

STORYMARK


And, not to distract from the article, on the broader topic of this thread - if racism was really dead - this wouldn't be a hot selling bumper sticker:



Spoon!

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Friday, March 16, 2012 1:57 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

You can't just go around hunting human beings because you feel empowered with a firearm in your hand.
Apparently you still CAN, in America! The article, by the way, was written by a young black girl.

There's more to the story; if you checked it all, you'd see it's pretty obviously that a black kid was walking in a gated community at night...and you know how THAT goes!

Jaysus...what state was that bumper sticker in?!?! I know it weren't California...guess who'd be lynched?



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Friday, March 16, 2012 2:13 PM

OONJERAH



    You can still use that bumper sticker in Placerville, CA. Just don't leave the county.
    BTW, we do have black people living here now ... only a few brave ones.


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Saturday, March 17, 2012 5:12 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wow...well, that IS redneck country to a degree. If you ignore all the yuppies taking root, that is! I'm amazed. But then, there are places even in CA where these things still abound.

I drive through Placerville every time I go up to visit Paula...I think it's neat! Do you live in Placerville itself, or somewhere else in Placer County? If you're right there in town or around, I'd love to meet next time I go up (Paula's JUST on the East side of the Sierras). You get any snow from that last blast? It was warm here and one of the Bay Area Mushers (who I run with down here) was complaining that the snow fell and disappeared the same day from that last storm. Hope they get snow so they can get some real mushing in, they've all been grousing this year (so has Paula!).

I envy you Placerville. I consider it hitting the FIRST of the mountains...up until then it's just more Saccamenna highway. Neat place; I take the Mormon Immigrant Trail down sometimes--nice countryside.

We got POUNDED down here--Monsoon-like, the Outback barely survived and I had to re-attach some of its anchors. Thank goodness the rain had let up when I did...and I did because I went to check and found a HUGE bubble of water sitting right over the head of my bed! Tarp anchor had come loose on the other end and tarp was just sliiiiiding over from the weight of the water. Eeep! All is well today, tho' you can't see out any of the windows in the house for the moisture! Basement flooded, but that's predictable.

Anyone else get snow? Or survive the deluge?

Not to thread jack or anything...



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Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:41 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


I caught this story on Anderson Cooper. And yes, it stinks. It's the police action (or non-action) that worries me most.

Quote:

The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense.


It astonishes me that a man can stalk and harrass a man going about his business, provoke an altercation, and then shoot him and claim self-defense, no questions asked. The US self-defence laws (or the application of them?) seem bizarre to me.

Whether or not the shooting/initial harrassment was racially motivated, I can't help but think that the police non-action WAS. If it was a white kid lying on the ground is there any chance that the shooter would've been released on the spot?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I am very curious as to what deadly weapon or life-threatening damage this victim wielded or caused to make the police side with the perpetrator.

And if none? Why on Earth isn't this being pursued as a possible crime?

There have been legitimate self-defense scenarios that have been much more vigorously investigated than this farce.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Whether or not the shooting/initial harrassment was racially motivated, I can't help but think that the police non-action WAS. If it was a white kid lying on the ground is there any chance that the shooter would've been released on the spot?


Nope, and I find that offensive as hell - he went and PROVOKED a confrontation, despite being advised not to, which resulted in a needless fatality.
And one which factually he had no business doin regardless - someone walkin down the street with a pop and candy is zero threat, someone even BLATANTLY casing your site with a pop and candy is zero threat so long as they are under observation, so why approach and start something for no reason ?

Mind you, this is why I don't get on well with other security specialists, they got too much of that fuckin cartman-attitude going on and not half enough restraint, and many of em have anger-emotion-ego issues which have precluded a career in law enforcement or military, and often as not those who are former LEO or military are WORSE.
For our interview policy, either one of those things is a -50 up front (-100 being a no-hire) cause they're just flat incapable of behaving themselves like a human being.

And that most of all, is THE most important part of being a good guard.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:02 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I'm not convinced that this was purely a racial thing, but I'm not convinced either that race played no part. It does indeed sound like this guy was wound too tight and just looking for someone to give him a reason, ANY reason, and now an innocent kid is dead for no good goddam reason.

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 4:27 PM

OPPYH


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Wow...well, that IS redneck country to a degree. If you ignore all the yuppies taking root, that is!


Rednecks, and yuppies?

Typical white people.



----------------------------------------------------------------

70's TV FOREVER

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Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:55 PM

OONJERAH



      I wonder if the people of Sanford, FL, will be able to maintain calm.

  "More than 314,125 people have signed one petition on the Change.org website. Some
say the handling of the case comes on the heels of a string of racially charged incidents
that have further strained relations between the black community and the police."

  Petition: http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-tr
ayvon-martin


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Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:57 PM

FREMDFIRMA



You know, one thing I like about this township is just how determinedly NON-racist it is in spite of so many transplanted hillbillies that you can actually get moonshine and live chickens in the neighborhood...

We got all kinds here, and for the most part NOBODY CARES, race, sexuality, nobody gives a damn - save a few serious wackjobs (the ones that showed up to support Herman Cain cause hate-radio told em to and couldn't wrap their brain around him being black) out in the backwoods...
And while there's not quite that much religious tolerance, after what I did to them freakin Baptists after Wendy put one in the trauma ward, there's at least a certain detente and turf-respect.

But for the most part around here, there's so little intolerance you'd hardly ever even notice it unless you were really lookin hard to find some.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree KPO, the police non-action pisses me off, too. Hell, if a 911 call goes out for spousal abuse, the guy pretty much gets arrested whether there's proof or not if the woman wants to press charges! He should at the very least have been arrested for discharging a firearm, until they could figure out what happened.

Frem, interestingly enough we don't have much, if any, racism here either. There's a tunnel you have to go through just North of the Golden Gate, and the joke used to be that it was a "Caucasian-test" tunnel, because Marin was so white-white. But now we've got every color/race imaginable and you don't hear shit about prejudice. I'm sure some resent the Hispanic guys who stand/sit along certain roads hoping to find work, but you don't hear about it. Most of the nannies are Hispanic, but they're not treated like the "servants" you see blacks and others treated in the movies and TV...in fact quite the opposite. Which in some cases is reverse-racism, of course.

There was an old movie we used to get a kick out of, "Serial"--it got little play but became a cult favorite for those of us who remember the '70s, and I love it. It's satire, of course, but not THAT far off the mark. A maid is encouraged to become part of the party, for example, and asked her views on everything. Martin Mull, Tuesday Weld, Bill Macy and even Tommy Smothers. "You-ness. Me-ness. Us-ness. We-ness", cults, lentil loaves, EST, a wedding on the mountain joining two people into "oneness", healing crystals, hot tubs, a boss who turns out to be part of a gay biker gang, it doesn't miss any of the stereotypes! AND some reality--I caught in a review "Who wouldn't want to ride their bike to the Ferry to get to work daily?" Ooops...that's what my husband does! Yup, the epitome of Crazy California...but at least we avoid racism in its uglier forms!



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Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:48 AM

OONJERAH


Niki, I sent you a PM. This would arrive by eMail, yes?
If your eMail is too full to find everything, send me one, too.
I will see it.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



“This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.”


So spewed the attackers of Melissa Coon’s 13-year-old son, as they doused him with gasoline and set him alight.

Police, they say, are “investigating” whether this is a hate crime.

Yes, and I’m investigating whether the media is biased and if hate-crime law is applied equally. I’ll get back to you on that — in about two paragraphs.

The attack on the boy took place on the east side of Kansas City, Missouri. Fox 4 Kansas City provides some (sanitized) details, writing, “The victim is a student at East High School and regularly walks home after class. When he reached his porch, two older teens grabbed him, pinned his arms behind his back and then poured gas from a gas can on the boy. They then set the boy on fire.”

Thankfully, the teen victim had the presence of mind to pull his shirt up over his head and snuff out the flames. He was treated at Children’s Mercy hospital, having suffered first-degree burns to his face and head. And police said they were concerned about possible damage to his eyes and lungs.

The concern, however, isn’t translating into national media coverage — or honest coverage anywhere.

Of course, if you scrutinize the few local outlets reporting the story and cut and paste, you can piece the picture together. The Fox article I excerpted above provides only the vaguest hint of the attack’s racial nature by quoting Mrs. Coon as saying that her family was told “it’s a hate crime.” KCTV 5 did a bit better, reporting that the victim was white and the assailants black; however, while they quoted the attackers as stating “This is what you get,” for some reason they omitted the “white boy” part. Then there was KMBC.com, which presented the latter but neglected to explicitly identify the race of the criminals, leaving the reader to wonder if the attackers were self-hating Norwegian immigrants. But I’ve played the game and figured out that Colonel Mustard did it in the library with the candlestick.

But we’ve seen this bias before. It’s much as when Muslims rioted in France a couple of years ago and burned thousands of cars, and the media reported the rioters as “youths.” Yes, just teen angst, I suppose.

Some may say that the media are reluctant to stir up racial unrest, but this never seems to stop them when the races of the victim and attackers are reversed. Could you imagine the hue and cry if two older white teenagers had set an innocent black child alight while saying, “You get what you deserve, black boy”? The headlines coast to coast would be cast in neon, and the media would love it — it would give them another chance to agitate for more hate-crime legislation.



http://www.thenewamerican.com/opinion/selwyn-duke/11046-teen-set-on-fi
re-in-racial-attack-media-silent





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:43 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj, hasn't arrived yet. Sometimes they take time...and yes, it comes via email.



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Sunday, March 18, 2012 1:49 PM

OONJERAH



"Teens set kid on fire for being 'white boy'"
Feb 28 - Mar 2, 6 articles listed on Google News.
Mar 4 - Mar 5, 10 more articles.

No, it was not a media storm.

My Opinion: Hate crimes are common. Hate crimes against Jews, Muslims, Latinos AND Blacks usually
get only a small burst of local coverage, even if they result in the victim's death.

It's good that such horrors occasionally make bigger news.

ETA: I don't see Trayvon Martin's killing as a typical hate crime. More of a sick wannabe-cop's ego gone mad.
Zimmerman may see himself as a hero: He saved the neighborhood from a suspicious looking lad, up to no good.



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Monday, March 19, 2012 6:00 AM

CAVETROLL


From ABC's article, emphasis mine;

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watchman-allegedly-shot-trayvon-
martin-wanted-cop/story?id=15949879


Quote:


...Sanford, Fla., Police Chief Billy Lee said Zimmerman asserts he shot Martin out of self-defense.

"Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him," Lee said last Tuesday.

Martin had been staying at his father's girlfriend's house and stepped out. On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community, Martin was spotted by Zimmerman.

Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.

A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.

But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime, Lee said.

Witnesses told ABC News a fistfight broke out and, at one point, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.


Florida Teen Shot: Why Isn't Shooter in Jail? Watch Video

Trayvon Martin's Family Calls for Justice Watch Video

Trayvon Martin Neighborhood Watch Shooting Watch Video
Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.

Brown, along with several other residents, heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.

According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.

An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.



Zimmerman's documented actions did not break the law. The fact that he was bleeding after a witness described them fighting gives legitimacy to Zimmerman's decision to use deadly force under Florida's Castle doctrine. Nothing about this indicates it was racially motivated.



Martin on the left and Zimmerman on the right.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 6:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I agree, Oonj, and certainly people of ALL color (including Caucasian) have been the victims of racial hatred. After reading the above article, and finding this:
Quote:

It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.

It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.

He spotted a young black teenager wearing a sweatshirt, with the hood draped over his head. Mr. Zimmerman, a 28-year-old Hispanic man, trailed him a bit. Then he called 911, the first of seven calls from Mr. Zimmerman and panicked neighbors that begin to flesh out the details in the death of Trayvon Martin, 17, whom Mr. Zimmerman shot. The police released the recordings to local reporters late Friday night after nearly three weeks of pressure from Trayvon’s parents and their supporters.

The 911 calls from a gated community in Sanford, north of Orlando, culminate with a faint voice in the distance crying and pleading for help. A gunshot is heard, and then silence. Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he had shot Trayvon in self-defense, after the two got into a fight and Mr. Zimmerman wound up on the ground. There have been no arrests in the case. The unarmed teenager, who carried Skittles and a can of iced tea, was walking to the home of his father’s girlfriend from a convenience store.

“This guy looks like he’s up to no good or on drugs or something,” Mr. Zimmerman told dispatch, in his initial call. “It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” Mr. Zimmerman continued: “He’s here now just looking at all the houses. Now he’s just staring at me.” Then he added a second later: “He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Can you get an officer over here?”

Then he got out of the car with his licensed 9-millimeter pistol, and a worried dispatcher asked: “Are you following him? O.K., you don’t need to do that.”

At that point, Trayvon ran, and Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow. The dispatcher told him to wait for the police. A suggestion was made that Mr. Zimmerman and the police should meet by a mailbox. But then Mr. Zimmerman changed his mind. “Actually, could you have him call me and I’ll tell him where I’m at.”

The next spate of calls came from anxious neighbors. A faint cry for help and terrified howls can be heard in the background. Neighbors said they had seen two men nearby in the dark. They reported hearing a gunshot.

“A guy yelled, ‘Help! Oh, my God,’ ” one man told the dispatcher. “There is two guys in the backyard with flashlights. There is a black guy down and it looks like he’s been shot and he’s dead.”

One caller said: “I think they’re yelling help, but I don’t know. Send someone quickly, please.”

It is not clear from the audio whether one or two shots was fired. And, with the voice muffled in the distance, it is difficult to know which of the two men is crying out for help.

The police told The Orlando Sentinel on Friday that they believed the voice crying for help was Mr. Zimmerman’s. They say that prosecutors have told them they do not have enough evidence to dispute Mr. Zimmerman’s claim that he acted in self-defense. Florida affords people who act in self-defense greater protection than most states, allowing them to take action if they have a reasonable fear that their lives are in peril. The case was turned over to the state attorney’s office last week.

“That is the circumstance we are dealing with: If we arrest, we open ourselves to a lawsuit,” Sgt. Dave Morgenstern, a spokesman with the Sanford Police Department, said. “I would have to say I don’t think we have conducted a racially biased investigation at all.”

Sergeant Morgenstern said that Mr. Zimmerman was in contact with the police and was cooperating with the investigation. In a letter to The Orlando Sentinel last week, Mr. Zimmerman’s father said that his son had black relatives and friends and was not the aggressor in the case.

Mr. Zimmerman, who is studying criminal justice, was arrested once in 2005 on charges of battery on a police officer and resisting arrest with violence. The charges were dropped.

Trayvon had no criminal record. He was suspended from his Miami high school for 10 days in February, which is the reason he was visiting his father. The family said the suspension was not for violent or criminal behavior but for a violation of school policy.

Representative Corrine Brown, a Florida Democrat, and Sanford’s mayor, Jeff Triplett, have joined the parents’ request for a Department of Justice investigation.

Trayvon’s parents say they have no doubt that it is their son’s voice pleading for his life in the background. They say they can imagine Trayvon reacting with fright or concern upon seeing a burly stranger trailing him in his car, then getting out to follow him.

“I listened to the tapes and it just broke my heart again to hear him screaming out for help and pleading for his life, and he was still murdered,” said Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother. “There is no question in my mind that is his voice.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-
florida-teenager.html
am of the opinion that this might well have been a non-racial exchange-gone-bad on both parts. I imagine the teen might have been scared, having this big guy following him, and might have confronted Zimmerman. Zimmerman was obviously dumb to ignore what the police told him, and might well have over-reacted. Doesn't sound like we'll ever know for sure, but it SEEMS like there's wrong on both sides, if we trust the news. I know if I were confronted with a guy that much bigger than me, I'd be scared.

Unquestionably there is a tendency to jump to conclusions of "racism!"; we have such a history of it in this country, and it does continue, so it's inevitable. It's very sad.

For one thing, I don't think these "neighborhood watch" guys should be allowed to intervene, only to do just that, WATCH, and work with the police. I think he should face some kind of punishment for going on his own, because of he hadn't, this whole things probably wouldn't have happened. Maybe just a reprimand, but whatever happens, in my opinion he shouldn't be allowed to be in the neighborhood watch anymore. They're not trained yet they're carrying deadly weapons and have to use their own discretion how to act. That would make ME damned nervous if they were in MY neighborhood.

We'll no doubt never know for sure what happened in this case, it's just my opinion that there was probably some wrong on both sides and someone died who didn't need to, who was just going on his way (maybe slowly because he was looking for the right house--it wasn't his home, he was just staying there). All we can know for sure is that if Zimmerman hadn't acted as he did, nothing would have happened. And there's the fact that blacks are more "threatening" to many people...if it had been a white kid, I don't think this would have happened. These are the times we live in.



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Monday, March 19, 2012 6:45 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


If you've got 50 to 100 lbs on a KID, you don't need to go to the gun.

Unless he pulls a gun or a knife first.

Truth is, we don't know what happened.

Funny how quick people backpedaled on the "Raciss" call when they found out it was Hispanic vs Black tho...





"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, March 19, 2012 7:16 AM

MAL4PREZ


This is so fucked up. I do blame the guy with the gun, absolutely, and these laws. I don't hear anyone in these articles talking about the KID's right to defend himself. The people defending the shooter (not on this thread, but on other news sites) seem to think the big guy with the gun, who invited himself into this situation against express recommendations from the police, had a right to use deadly force. But a teen getting stalked by someone much bigger than him didn't have a right to bunch his attacker in the nose?

Bullshit. The shooter invited himself into the situation. He created it, and an innocent kid is now dead. That is a crime.

I'm glad there are protests going on about this, and I hope the FBI does step in. And I hope other wanna-be heroes pay attention. This is the likely outcome of thinking you should step in with your big gun and save the world.

I wish I could see inside Zimmerman's head, to see how he's justifying this. I wonder if he's re-constructed the whole thing so it's not his fault, rather than accepting guilt. I wonder if he's capable of thinking of himself as a bully who killed an innocent child.

BTW: I would add that I think it is possible that racism was involved. If it'd been a white kid walking down the street, would it have happened the same? After reading the articles here though, I can't fault the police. They seem to be stuck because of the laws.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Monday, March 19, 2012 7:33 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
This is so fucked up. I do blame the guy with the gun, absolutely, and these laws. I don't hear anyone in these articles talking about the KID's right to defend himself. The people defending the shooter (not on this thread, but on other news sites) seem to think the big guy with the gun, who invited himself into this situation against express recommendations from the police, had a right to use deadly force. But a teen getting stalked by someone much bigger than him didn't have a right to bunch his attacker in the nose?

Bullshit. The shooter invited himself into the situation. He created it, and an innocent kid is now dead. That is a crime.

I'm glad there are protests going on about this, and I hope the FBI does step in. And I hope other wanna-be heroes pay attention. This is the likely outcome of thinking you should step in with your big gun and save the world.

I wish I could see inside Zimmerman's head, to see how he's justifying this. I wonder if he's re-constructed the whole thing so it's not his fault, rather than accepting guilt. I wonder if he's capable of thinking of himself as a bully who killed an innocent child.

BTW: I would add that I think it is possible that racism was involved. If it'd been a white kid walking down the street, would it have happened the same? After reading the articles here though, I can't fault the police. They seem to be stuck because of the laws.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left




That pretty well sums it up for me as well.

What if the kid had had a gun, and used it to defend himself from a stalker who got in his face and confronted him? How would the news be reporting it in that case? "Armed youth guns down neighborhood watch captain"?

And Wulfie? Why do you imagine that Hispanics can't be racist? Where DO you get these nonsensical ideas that still seem to fill your head? And is Zimmerman Hispanic? I heard he was multiracial, which makes him sound like pretty much any other American, really.

The race issue comes into play in this way: What would have happened if the kid were clearly a white kid just walking in the rain with a soda and some candy? Would anyone have felt the need to not only follow him, but to confront him and square off against him?

Or did that happen mainly because he was black?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 19, 2012 9:36 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Zimmerman's documented actions did not break the law. The fact that he was bleeding after a witness described them fighting gives legitimacy to Zimmerman's decision to use deadly force under Florida's Castle doctrine.

I don't see where the Castle doctrine comes into this as Trayvon Martin was not trespassing - he had every right to be out walking where he was.

Zimmerman's only defence is ordinary self-defence. Self-defence if I'm not mistaken requires that you reasonably consider yourself to be in danger of death, or serious injury. Zimmerman was bleeding on the back of his head and had a nosebleed as a result of the altercation. But he wasn't admitted to hospital, and he didn't suffer from concussion or require stitches. And of course he outweighed his opponent by 100lbs. The idea that he had reason to fear for his life is pretty dubious.

If Zimmerman can legitimately claim self-defence here then anyone anywhere who is involved in a scuffle can draw a gun and use deadly force. So I can start a fight with someone, get knocked on my butt, draw a gun and shoot the person. And when the police turn up I just have to utter the magic words 'self-defence' and then I'll be released on the spot?

More from your cited article that's worth noting:

Quote:

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective peppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News.



It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 9:51 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Its an awful situation any way you look at it. I don't know whether it was racially motivated or not, I don't think we have enough info to determine that, sometimes on the surface something looks one way and then when you find out more its more complex than that. But it does sound like Zimmerman has some sort of wannabe hero complex, I think mentioning it to the police should have been sufficient, at the most, that probably wasn't even necessary because he was just walking around not harming anyone. In middle school I had a friend who liked to go outside and lay in the rain just for fun in the summertime, maybe the kid just likes the rain.:(((((


Oh yeah, and what happened with Wendy and the Baptist? Was s/he tresspassing while she was on shift? I know she's a good fighter.
"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 19, 2012 11:42 AM

OONJERAH



Security guard's job: Observe & report.
Kid walking on sidewalk = not illegal.
Zimmerman disregarded advice of dispatch.
News I've read paints Zimmerman as a squirrel; the dispatch tapes verify it.
True, I didn't scan thru the whole media storm looking for a headline: Zimmerman is a fine fellow.

Two things I wonder: Did Zimmerman identify himself to Martin?
Who initiated the assault?


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Monday, March 19, 2012 11:59 AM

1KIKI

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis


I'm hoping someone can answer this question: if I decide to murder someone, and I have a gun, and I wait till there is no one else around and then shoot that person - can I get away with it as long as I claim self-defense? B/c as long as there are no witnesses to say any different, the police can't really assume it was murder. Right? It seems like that's what it boils down to in this case.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 12:02 PM

OONJERAH



Not entirely, Kiki. You gotta beat yourself up beforehand.



                   

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Monday, March 19, 2012 12:10 PM

1KIKI

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis


OK - I didn't see that part of the story.

But, ah - what if Trayvon was defending himself against a nut with a gun who accosted him on the street? In fact, I don't buy the idea that Trayvon started it. After all, Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon, not the other way around. I think a reasonable case could be made for manslaughter. B/c it still comes down to having to take the word of the only witness since the other witness was killed - by the first witness.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 12:14 PM

1KIKI

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis


Oh yeah, and someone please remind me again how we'd all be so much safer if we were just all armed.

Makes me think about nuclear weapons - in Zimmerman's case the problem was that the firepower exceeded the brain power. Maybe that's humanity's problem as well. We just can't REALLY be trusted with our technology.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 12:19 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


People who have never been exposed to real life amuse me.

I'm getting a kick out of those who live in their safe, little worlds talking about things they have no understanding of.

Yes. Lets make a law that has all guns be illegal. That will work. Especially when I hear someone kicking in my door. I'll grab a cricket bat (providing those arn't against the law) and defend myself and my family.

We can be just like Britain. Makes sense.

lol

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, March 19, 2012 12:23 PM

1KIKI

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis


Of course Wulfie. No one else has ever been attacked, or lived in a dangerous neighborhood. Yes, yes, yes. Sing your brain to sleep with your little lullaby and dream your little dreams. Sleep, sleeeeep.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 1:22 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
People who have never been exposed to real life amuse me.



So you're amused by yourself, eh? Small things please small minds, it seems.

Quote:


I'm getting a kick out of those who live in their safe, little worlds talking about things they have no understanding of.

Yes. Lets make a law that has all guns be illegal. That will work. Especially when I hear someone kicking in my door. I'll grab a cricket bat (providing those arn't against the law) and defend myself and my family.



So that's quite a logical leap you've made their, son. From "Hey, maybe we should investigate a guy who blows a kid away for no good reason" to "Let's make a law that has all guns be illegal". You can go from zero to dumb-ass in 2.3 seconds, can't you?

Quote:


We can be just like Britain. Makes sense.




We'd certainly have fewer gun deaths and gun murders.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 1:34 PM

OONJERAH


Niki's initial post:
"He was shot by a self-appointed White Community Watch Captain
who was walking around with a gun."

Today from MailOnline:
"The devastated mother of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who was fatally shot last month by a Neighbourhood Watch volunteer, is saying the attack was racially motivated." => http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117219/Trayvon-Martin-shootin
g-Mother-claims-George-Zimmerman-killed-son-skin-colour.html#ixzz1pbknArW1


It's been nagging at me: Who hired this turkey? Community Watch? So the people in the gated community
asked him to do this job? Are any of them speaking up?

ETA: Yes, they are, one is. From the link above:

"According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman volunteered as chief watchman at the Retreat of Twin Lakes Townhomes
after its homeowners association decided to jumpstart the programme following a spate of burglaries.
Licensed to carry a concealed firearm and a student of criminal justice, neighbours told the newspaper Zimmerman took
nightly patrols while walking his dog, and was passionate about his duty.

Records acquired by the Herald show his self-appointment led to a series of calls to police. From January 1, 2011 to
February 26, 2012, Zimmerman reportedly phoned authorities 46 times - to 'report disturbances, break-ins, windows
left open and other incidents'.

His calls account for some of the 402 made to police from the 260-unit complex, according to the Herald.
Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association, credits him with solving crime in the area. 'He once caught
a thief and an arrest was made,' she said, adding that he helped to solve 'a lot' of crimes."

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Monday, March 19, 2012 3:13 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Not everyone in the biz is trustworthy, and FAR too many are in it because their mental, ego and attitude issues bounced them out of military or police careers - what I call cartmans cause they got control issues which escalate every situation into dangerous potentials.
And one of the most dangerous are wanna-bes like this guy, how much you wanna bet he has a fake badge and a blue or red strobe in his car and various police-type weapony lying around his place ?
BELIEVE ME, I know the freakin type - I throw enough of em out of interviews...

Now, mind you, I don't often throw down the credentials card - I've done it maybe ONCE before in all this time, but imma throw it here, cause frankly what I got to say kinda requires it.
Yeah verily, I been doin this job off and on to some degree for twenty freakin YEARS and my training and experience includes military, professional and a whole damn lot of practical from both sides of the fence, okay ?

So, you got a black man, young guy, waltzing through your neighborhood with his hoodie up, looking around, which TO A COMPLETE FREAKING IDIOT, might look a little suspicious - mind you it's raining, and he's likely looking for alternate routes around puddles and low spots to avoid getting his shoes wet.
Now it's within basic procedure to keep an EYE on him, keep him in sight, and if you feel some desperate need to move him along since he hasn't displayed any OBVIOUS behavior the most you should do is crowd him a little, just linger nearby within his sight and unnerve him into moving along, while staying far enough out of reach there's no point in opening conversation or initiating confrontation.
Or alternatively, depending on his response to seeing you (for example if he offers a friendly smile and wave to acknowledge you) you can walk WITH him, chat him up a little while telling him - yeah well if I'm with you the little old ladies around here ain't gonna freak out, so I'm saving us both hassle, yanno?
AND you can make local contacts out of that who will let you know things, instead of making enemies.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/deescalation.htm

What this moron did, and I know he did, is approach him and immediately start giving him ATTITUDE, the third degree, which even if he DIDN'T throw race in the mix (common enough, but lets not assume it) is enough to really piss someone off, and maybe the kid was a bit scared of what might HAPPEN to him out in the nethers of suburbia all alone with some armed creep (who probably did not identify himself AND got in the boys personal space) and decided to take off, at which point said armed creep reflexively GRABBED him.
And then shit went rodeo.

And then mister bully boy ego stroker can't put his ass where his mouth is and starts getting his butt kicked, so he starts whining like a bitch, and the boy in the middle of kicking his ass backs off, at which point his EGO requires the gesture, and the fucker murders him.
Which is EXACTLY what happened.

Which is why I do not hire these pissants.
Take a good long look, people....

Fucking it up completely - how to get attacked
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/get_attacked.htm

Yup, you're the bad guy, PREDATORY violence
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violencetypesPRED.htm

There WAS a crime, yours - the Five Stages of fucking it up.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

This, particularly.

INTENT: This armed goon took it upon himself in violation of common sense, good advice, general procedure, to APPROACH and CONFRONT his intended victim - his EGO required it.

INTERVIEW: Fair bet the goon here assured himself that the kid was no PHYSICAL threat (or so he thought) before approaching, or he wouldn't have - cause again, I know these types.

POSITIONING: He sure as hell did this, approached, confronted, and provoked.

ATTACK: Force, threat of force, perceived-authority-bullying, that passive-aggressive shit-picking that such pumped up authoritarian punks engage in, followed by the physical action of grabbing a kid that prolly wanted to get AWAY from this crazy fuck before something EXACTLY LIKE THIS happened.
And then he wound up on the downside of a physical scuffle and...

REACTION: The bastards ego can handle having his ass handed to him, so he shoots.

Again - I KNOW THE MINDSET.
This is EXACTLY what happens when you let a Violence Geek playact at being security.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violence_geeks.htm

So - my PROFESSIONAL opinion, deliberate, hot blooded murder in the second degree.

Oh, and while I respect your attempts to serve the greater good, don't shine me Wulf, there's still a *LOT* of this exact mindset within you, and some introspection about this incident, and WHAT IT COULD COST YOU, being like that - would be a damn smart investment of your time and effort.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, March 19, 2012 6:26 PM

OONJERAH



I agree with you, Frem. I believe your description of events is spot on.
But I cannot say so, because I did not witness it.

ETA: Introspection is a very good tool, tho few enough use it. To start,
One must recognize the limits of One's own Ego, and shut the thing down for a bit.


                   

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Monday, March 19, 2012 7:10 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


FRem you know more about security, and many other things, than I ever will, so if you say it happened like that then you're more than likely right.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 19, 2012 10:47 PM

OONJERAH

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:29 AM

CAVETROLL


Castle doctrine does apply under Florida law. If you feel threatened by the actions of another you are free to use deadly force under their law. There has already been a case where teenagers were harassing an older man who lived alone. The last time they pulled their pranks on him they chose to pound on his front door in the middle of the night. He shot through the door without investigating. One of the teens died and one was seriously wounded. This was a no bill. No crime was committed.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman was right. I am saying that from the available evidence, no crime was committed. Playing a racist angle or the feds investigating, presumably under a civil rights angle, is all smoke and mirrors. Feeling that "this is wrong so we're going to make it a crime" undermines the criminal justice system.

Until more witnesses come forward or evidence is produced and we can get a better insight into what transpired between Martin and Zimmerman, we have to concede that we are ignorant and leave Zimmerman alone. "Better that 100 guilty go free than an innocent be condemned." Ring any bells?

But there's an almost sure slam dunk on a civil case.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:25 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup, hope to see a civil case right soon. And yes, if someone shot someone on the street late at night, no witnesses, a couple of bruises, how DO the police determine it wasn't self-defense?

I'm going by a few things:

This guy VOLUNTEERED to be watch captain, had a background in criminal law (which means he's well aware of that particular law giving him the right to shoot someone), and had made a hellofalot of 911 calls. This tells me something about him.

The idea there's Hispanic v Black makes it unimportant is asinine. As people learn more, their opinions are bound to change, simple as that.

The kid was an "A-B student" and had only one incident at school against him, a minor one.

Zimmerman had a past record of violence, which the police omitted at first:
Quote:

The father of the teen, Tracy Martin, was told by police that Zimmerman had a ‘squeaky-clean’ record and that is why he has not been charged yet. Zimmerman was arrested back in 2005 in Orange County for resisting arrest using violence and battery on a law enforcement officer, according to public records. The records were found with the Orange County Clerk of Courts. The charges were filed in July of 2005 but were dropped.

“They just lied to the family,” Crump said. “They just couldn’t see why [Zimmerman] would do anything wrong or be violent. But not only do you know the guy killed this kid, because he admitted to it, you knew that he has a propensity for violence because of his past record.”

Tracy Martin said in an interview last week that he was told by officers that:

“They respected [Zimmerman's] background, that he studied criminal justice for four years and that he was squeaky clean. My question to them was, did they run my child’s background check? They said yes. I asked them what they came up with, and they said nothing. http://www.jdjournal.com/2012/03/12/neighborhood-watch-captain-involve
d-in-shooting-has-violent-past/
more that comes out, I'm starting to see a guy who might well have a bit of a hair trigger; dunno why the charges were dropped, but from what the cops in Florida said, maybe the police in the other incident respected him too, or he apologized, or something. But it's THERE and shows he could be aggressive, even toward cops.

The facts BEFORE the shooting are pretty clear. The kid was carrying candy, etc., and had just come back from the convenience store. Zimmerman called him in, was told not to follow him, followed him in his car and then on foot.

As to racism, they say Zimmerman has friends and relatives who are Black. That doesn't mean that a Black kid, walking through a gated community at night, wearing a hoodie, wouldn't be more suspicious to any "community watch" person than a white kid. That he PUSHED the situation speaks to me, and I just don't buy a kid who's got a clean record, isn't doing anything, and is much smaller, starting something as easily as a guy who WANTS to be in a position of authority, makes many calls to 911, is interested in criminal law and has at least one previous incident of being violent to an authority figure.

That's where I stand until and unless some further information comes out.



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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:49 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Actually, we've not discussed this aspect of it:
Quote:

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee has characterized Martin as the aggressor, based on the police department’s investigation. In an interview published by the Miami Herald, Lee asked rhetorically, “If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”

Actually, in Florida, it might be.

Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger. Section 776.013 provides:

“A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

Trayvon Martin was a teenaged boy who was walking home from a convenience store. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity. He was in a place where he had a right to be – near the home of his father’s fiancée. George Zimmerman followed him, even after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. Zimmerman left his vehicle holding a loaded gun and began pursuing Martin on foot. It is plausible to infer that Zimmerman, not Martin, initiated the attack. The tapes indicate that Zimmerman may have been the aggressor in initiating contact with Martin. Assuming the published reports are true, Martin, not Zimmerman, was exercising his lawful right to “stand his ground and meet force with force” by engaging in an altercation with Zimmerman.

By questioning why Martin didn’t simply stop and answer Zimmerman’s questions, and characterizing Martin as the aggressor, Sanford Police Department Chief Bill Lee Jr. appears to have assessed the Martin case using the standards that apply to law enforcement officers. This is wrong. Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.

Being the local neighborhood watch captain does not elevate him to that status. Nor was Zimmerman asked by any law enforcement officer to assist in detaining Martin – in fact, he was specifically told not to follow Martin. Zimmerman is entitled to none of the presumptions available to law enforcement officers under Florida law. The presumptions of acting in good faith that are afforded to law enforcement officers do not apply to Zimmerman.

If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense. Under Section 776.041, use of force is not justifiable under the statute to a person who initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

“(a) such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”

Neither exception applies to Zimmerman. Martin was armed only with a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea. Zimmerman had a 9mm handgun. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/19/opinion-trayvon-martin-not-g
eorge-zimmerman-was-engaged-in-self-defense/?hpt=hp_t1
makes sense to me.



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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Well, they're going through the call logs now - and so far they prettymuch support events being much as I described them.

Now Troll brought up the legal presumption of innocence, but honestly that falls since Zimmerman deliberately approached and confronted someone against policy, the advice of the police dispatcher and common sense, and also in regards to it his comment showed quite clearly this was a matter of his ego than any necessity.
I don't see how one could presume "innocence" of an armed goon who violated all of those things to needlessly confront someone, which makes HIM the aggressor in the situation.

From a legal standpoint, the smart thing to do, which prolly wouldn't save him but might mitigate the damage, is to get a decent lawyer, clam up, and refuse to take the stand - and here's why.

Firstoff, a public defender, as I have mentioned before, is a professional dive-taker who's sole intent is to put up just enough of a fight to make the prosecutor look good, in hopes of someday being on that side of the courtroom with the stacked deck - they're NOT on your side, they're selling you out, and if he winds up with an appointed attorney I assure you they will encourage him to be stupid.

See, from a prosecution angle, all you have to do is get this guy on the stand and start poking his fragile ego, and he'll ruin himself, lickety split - and worse, he will WANT to do it, just as his pride and ego forced that confrontation, demanded that he shoot, it will push him to tell his side of the story and "dress it up" in some logically inconsistent way that will allow a prosecutor with even a peanut for a brain (which is most of em) to completely excoriate his ass.
So even if he gets a decent attorney, chances are he will no more listen to them about shutting the fuck up and staying off the stand, than he did the police dispatcher telling him not to pursue.

Really, guys like this, all you have to do is hand them a shovel, you understand ?

Also, in regards to those call logs, I've listened to one of Trayvon's just prior to the incident, and it's abundantly clear he knew he was being followed by someone HE considered creepy and suspicious, and in response tried to lose them - the person on the other end of the line was encouraging him to flee, in fact...
And that call does include the beginning of the incident, and at NO point does Zimmerman identify himself or his intentions before a physical altercation breaks out.

Ergo, events are very likely just as I called em.
And this guy is gonna catch hell for it, as he should.

Sometimes public outrage is the grease the wheels of justice need, and yeah verily from a legal standpoint the presumption of innocence must stand till the issue is decide in court, but it took that public outrage based on some REALLY DAMN OBVIOUS evidence of bad conduct in order to cause it to BE decided in court, instead of brushed off and ignored - and I seriously question your assumptions there Troll, to the point where I flat out question your motives.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:35 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh, and a non-incident from last night I'll relate, just as an example of how things can go right.

I was coming around building five about to hit the last key of the night and file my report and as such was walking at the edge of the complex with the road there, and suddenly for no reason I could immediately determine one of the local cops pulls over the car in front of him.
I keep a loose eye on the situation and punch the last key, then linger near the building within earshot cause I note that the officer in question has stated with the forfeiture-fishing-expedition set of questions prepatory to trying some bullshit much like this...
http://www.theagitator.com/2012/03/15/breakfast-in-collinsville/

And yes, it was a local K-9 officer last night as well - don't you just love it when they use your refusal to allow a search as justification for one ?
Especially since them dogs have been proven utterly unreliable, eh ?

So I linger in hearing range, and quietly pull my camera, but the range and light levels would require me to get closer to use it, which risks needlessly provoking something given that yon badge bearer has not yet exceeded his authority...
But then I notice the cop keeps throwing nervous glances over his left shoulder, mind you they KNOW this is my turf, and when in duty and in uniform I am a total hardass for proper procedure, having torn a strip off them before in regards to letting slide some blatant misconduct by a repossesion service, lying to a resident about how stalking/harrassment is handled, and creeping around private property unwanted scoping for expired tags and such - despite that animosity though there's a certain detente cause I am both very professional and fully aware of how and where my work is different from theirs.
That's come in handy a time or two for them as well as me - and so long as their conduct is equally professional I will back them up to the fullest, and if you need anywhere near here searched for a fleeing perp, missing kid or lost pet, I am your go-to-guy, so there's respect if not affection.

Ergo those nervous glances cue me in that he'd rather I not see what he's up to, unaware that I am already watching from a pool of shadow with excellent visual cover, and so I wait till he looks away to make a note on his clipboard, and slip out into the beam of the floodlights and lean against the building all phony casual like, and he spots me as he takes the drivers license back to the car to run it, and utters a very unprofessional word starting with F...
He brings back the drivers license and registration, and issues them a warning for a (parking) light out and sends them on their merry, then pulls a U-turn in the middle of the street and offers me ye olde digitus impudicus out the window of his SUV, and I give him the ole Red-eye, and nothing comes of it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EyelidPullTaunt

Sometimes just HAVING a witness can radically change the dynamics of a situation, you understand ?
If Trayvon had beat feet back to the convenience store, things might not have turned out that way.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:03 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger.

Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.

If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense.


Yes, yes and yes! I'm glad there are people going after this nonsense. The way Troll would have it, all I have to do is get in someone's face and talk smack until they try to push me out of the way, then I'm free to murder them in "self-defense'.

Frem: I've known public defenders, and I'd kindly ask you to be less blanket-y with those blanket statements. I understand that you have many bad ones in your life, but there are some damned fine people out there trying to do their jobs.

I was going to ask you about the calls, but I just saw the headline. I'm not looking forward to it. I think I'm going to end up even angrier about this.

ETA: OK, I'm feeling a lot less like going easy on the police, after seeing how they "investigated", and what Zimmerman's initial story was. The man lied, and I think he's well on his way to finally getting busted.

"According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman told the police that he had stepped out of his SUV to check the name of the street he was on, and that Trayvon sprang out of nowhere to attack him from behind as he was walking back to his truck. He said he feared for his life and shot Martin in self-defense. That account doesn't easily fit into the narrative cobbled together from what evidence had been made public."

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


And here we go...

Quote:

A Black Militia Group Says It Plans To Arrest The Neighborhood Watchman Who Shot A Black Teenager

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-black-militia-group-says-it-plans-to-
arrest-the-neighborhood-watchman-who-shot-trayvon-martin-2012-3#ixzz1pgO2fzYx





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:22 AM

KPO

"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."


Quote:

Castle doctrine does apply under Florida law.


From wiki:

Quote:

A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that designates a person's abode (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as a car or place of work) as a place in which the person has certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances attack an intruder without becoming liable to prosecution.


And:

Quote:

The term derives from the historic English common law dictum that "an Englishman's home is his castle".


There was no 'castle' in this case. And Trayvon was not an 'intruder' in any sense.

Quote:

I am saying that from the available evidence, no crime was committed.

A 17 year old, unarmed kid is lying dead on the ground, and the shooter's claim for self-defence is highly dubious (since he started the altercation, and outweighted the kid by 100lbs). Are you saying the police have no right to suspect the shooter, and investigate to find out exactly what happened? That's what they chose not to do. Seemingly, they treated it as an open and shut case where 'the black kid must've been asking for it'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:27 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by mal4prez:
Frem: I've known public defenders, and I'd kindly ask you to be less blanket-y with those blanket statements. I understand that you have many bad ones in your life, but there are some damned fine people out there trying to do their jobs.


Point acknowledged - just that in my experience in several states over many years has indicated a majority of em that way, but I am sure exceptions exist.
I've gotten so pissed off at our local prosecutor for shenanigans I was going to flat out refuse to testify any further and call her on it while on the stand - but the accused copped a plea at the last minute, I *would* have called her out, too, cause she was laughing up her sleve TO ME about privledged information the public defender leaked to her on purpose...
That offended me beyond reason cause there wasn't ANY bloody need for it, being that I caught the lot of them red-handed WITH the goods ON THEIR PERSON - but that's just the way she does things.
The line between good guys and bad guys here is kinda murky most days, so I can be a bit cynical, sure.
Anyhows, them that DO the job deserve full credit Mal4, that I freely give ya.
Quote:

ETA: OK, I'm feeling a lot less like going easy on the police, after seeing how they "investigated", and what Zimmerman's initial story was. The man lied, and I think he's well on his way to finally getting busted.

Yep, called that one straight - all one needs do is hand this guy a shovel, let him run his yap till he sinks himself good and deep, and then fill in the hole...

Again, I know the type, I toss enough of em out on their ear when they get interviewed - ironically they get quite pissed about it, even angry, and I've had to have one removed by force after he made threats and wanted to fight about it... which I mighta gave him were it not for Echo and Becky all but sitting on me.
I don't claim to be "better than", just "smarter than", and even when I ain't, my people are.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:28 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Stereotypes don't just happen.

A lot of people have to see a behavior before one is born. Then that behavior has to be reinforced over time for it to be vetted.

Drunk Irish.

Covetous Jew.

Mob Italian.

Bookworm Asian.

Maybe instead of blaming the aftermath of said stereotypes... you should try changing them. (Tho I give a pass to Asians.... getting good grades is not a vice.)

Everyone was all set to jump on this. "WHITE MAN KILLS BLACK BOY!"... and all that entails.

But now that the guy was Hispanic... you backpeddle. Cus God knows, its only ok to cry raciss when the target is white.

When its an "other"... well then. That gets all sorts of complicated, right? Only white people are raciss, right?

Racism does exist. But you might want to look in the mirror first before you start throwing that word around.





"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:42 AM

CAVETROLL


KPO,
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute
&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html


Section 3 is the applicable statute.

I erred in referring to it as the Castle law. My apologies. The Florida law is called the "Stand Your Ground" law. If threatened you can use deadly force. Don't like the law? Move to Florida and get it changed.

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