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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
"Racism is dead in America." Bullshit
Friday, March 16, 2012 9:47 AM
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Trayvon a 17 year old African American boy was shot in a gated community where his father lives in Florida. He was shot by a self-appointed White Community Watch Captain who was walking around with a gun. Zimmerman the community watch person decided Trayvon looked suspicious. All the boy had was candy and a drink. He was not bothering anyone. He was simply walking from the store to his father's house. So we have to ask ourselves what about the boy made him "look" suspicious? Zimmerman approached the boy after calling the police and the police telling him not to follow the boy.
Disregarding the police Zimmerman approached the boy with a gun and the boy attempted to defend himself. Now Zimmerman who weighed about 100 pounds more than the boy and had a gun is claimng self defense. He shot and killed this innocent boy. The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-761553?hpt=hp_bn2
Quote:Many claim that racism served as a motivation in the shooting. 'It points to what researchers have termed unconscious racism,' she said. 'People are not even aware of their biases. The fact that people identify with the shooter over a murdered child is disturbing.' Same
Friday, March 16, 2012 9:54 AM
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Friday, March 16, 2012 10:10 AM
Friday, March 16, 2012 10:13 AM
Friday, March 16, 2012 1:57 PM
Quote: You can't just go around hunting human beings because you feel empowered with a firearm in your hand.
Friday, March 16, 2012 2:13 PM
Saturday, March 17, 2012 5:12 AM
Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:41 AM
"Love is natural and real. But not for you my love. Not tonight my love..."
Quote:The police have not arrested Zimmerman because they claim there is no evidence or witness to counter his claim of self defense.
Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:54 AM
Saturday, March 17, 2012 2:05 PM
Quote:Originally posted by kpo:
Whether or not the shooting/initial harrassment was racially motivated, I can't help but think that the police non-action WAS. If it was a white kid lying on the ground is there any chance that the shooter would've been released on the spot?
Saturday, March 17, 2012 3:02 PM
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Saturday, March 17, 2012 4:27 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2:
Wow...well, that IS redneck country to a degree. If you ignore all the yuppies taking root, that is!
Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:55 PM
Saturday, March 17, 2012 6:57 PM
Sunday, March 18, 2012 9:41 AM
Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:48 AM
Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:29 PM
America loves a winner!
Sunday, March 18, 2012 12:43 PM
Sunday, March 18, 2012 1:49 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 6:00 AM
...Sanford, Fla., Police Chief Billy Lee said Zimmerman asserts he shot Martin out of self-defense.
"Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don't have the grounds to arrest him," Lee said last Tuesday.
Martin had been staying at his father's girlfriend's house and stepped out. On his way back into the gated suburban Orlando community, Martin was spotted by Zimmerman.
Zimmerman described Martin as suspicious because he was wearing a hooded sweatshirt and walking slowly in the rain, police later told residents at a town hall.
A dispatcher told him to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle.
But about a minute later, Zimmerman left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses, about 70 yards from where the teen was going.
Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin did not of itself constitute a crime, Lee said.
Witnesses told ABC News a fistfight broke out and, at one point, Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top.
Florida Teen Shot: Why Isn't Shooter in Jail? Watch Video
Trayvon Martin's Family Calls for Justice Watch Video
Trayvon Martin Neighborhood Watch Shooting Watch Video
Austin Brown, 13, was walking his dog during the time of the altercation and saw both men on the ground but separated.
Brown, along with several other residents, heard someone cry for help, just before hearing a gunshot. Police arrived 60 seconds later and the teen was quickly pronounced dead.
According to the police report, Zimmerman, who was armed with a handgun, was found bleeding from the nose and the back of the head, standing over Martin, who was unresponsive after being shot.
An officer at the scene overheard Zimmerman saying, "I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me," the report said.
Monday, March 19, 2012 6:23 AM
Quote: It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.
It was raining the night of Feb. 26 when George Zimmerman, a crime watch volunteer, set out to patrol his neighborhood in his sport utility vehicle, as was his habit. Several break-ins had been reported in the area in recent weeks, and Mr. Zimmerman was especially alert.
He spotted a young black teenager wearing a sweatshirt, with the hood draped over his head. Mr. Zimmerman, a 28-year-old Hispanic man, trailed him a bit. Then he called 911, the first of seven calls from Mr. Zimmerman and panicked neighbors that begin to flesh out the details in the death of Trayvon Martin, 17, whom Mr. Zimmerman shot. The police released the recordings to local reporters late Friday night after nearly three weeks of pressure from Trayvon’s parents and their supporters.
The 911 calls from a gated community in Sanford, north of Orlando, culminate with a faint voice in the distance crying and pleading for help. A gunshot is heard, and then silence. Mr. Zimmerman told the police that he had shot Trayvon in self-defense, after the two got into a fight and Mr. Zimmerman wound up on the ground. There have been no arrests in the case. The unarmed teenager, who carried Skittles and a can of iced tea, was walking to the home of his father’s girlfriend from a convenience store.
“This guy looks like he’s up to no good or on drugs or something,” Mr. Zimmerman told dispatch, in his initial call. “It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.” Mr. Zimmerman continued: “He’s here now just looking at all the houses. Now he’s just staring at me.” Then he added a second later: “He’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. Can you get an officer over here?”
Then he got out of the car with his licensed 9-millimeter pistol, and a worried dispatcher asked: “Are you following him? O.K., you don’t need to do that.”
At that point, Trayvon ran, and Mr. Zimmerman continued to follow. The dispatcher told him to wait for the police. A suggestion was made that Mr. Zimmerman and the police should meet by a mailbox. But then Mr. Zimmerman changed his mind. “Actually, could you have him call me and I’ll tell him where I’m at.”
The next spate of calls came from anxious neighbors. A faint cry for help and terrified howls can be heard in the background. Neighbors said they had seen two men nearby in the dark. They reported hearing a gunshot.
“A guy yelled, ‘Help! Oh, my God,’ ” one man told the dispatcher. “There is two guys in the backyard with flashlights. There is a black guy down and it looks like he’s been shot and he’s dead.”
One caller said: “I think they’re yelling help, but I don’t know. Send someone quickly, please.”
It is not clear from the audio whether one or two shots was fired. And, with the voice muffled in the distance, it is difficult to know which of the two men is crying out for help.
The police told The Orlando Sentinel on Friday that they believed the voice crying for help was Mr. Zimmerman’s. They say that prosecutors have told them they do not have enough evidence to dispute Mr. Zimmerman’s claim that he acted in self-defense. Florida affords people who act in self-defense greater protection than most states, allowing them to take action if they have a reasonable fear that their lives are in peril. The case was turned over to the state attorney’s office last week.
“That is the circumstance we are dealing with: If we arrest, we open ourselves to a lawsuit,” Sgt. Dave Morgenstern, a spokesman with the Sanford Police Department, said. “I would have to say I don’t think we have conducted a racially biased investigation at all.”
Sergeant Morgenstern said that Mr. Zimmerman was in contact with the police and was cooperating with the investigation. In a letter to The Orlando Sentinel last week, Mr. Zimmerman’s father said that his son had black relatives and friends and was not the aggressor in the case.
Mr. Zimmerman, who is studying criminal justice, was arrested once in 2005 on charges of battery on a police officer and resisting arrest with violence. The charges were dropped.
Trayvon had no criminal record. He was suspended from his Miami high school for 10 days in February, which is the reason he was visiting his father. The family said the suspension was not for violent or criminal behavior but for a violation of school policy.
Representative Corrine Brown, a Florida Democrat, and Sanford’s mayor, Jeff Triplett, have joined the parents’ request for a Department of Justice investigation.
Trayvon’s parents say they have no doubt that it is their son’s voice pleading for his life in the background. They say they can imagine Trayvon reacting with fright or concern upon seeing a burly stranger trailing him in his car, then getting out to follow him.
“I listened to the tapes and it just broke my heart again to hear him screaming out for help and pleading for his life, and he was still murdered,” said Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother. “There is no question in my mind that is his voice.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html am of the opinion that this might well have been a non-racial exchange-gone-bad on both parts. I imagine the teen might have been scared, having this big guy following him, and might have confronted Zimmerman. Zimmerman was obviously dumb to ignore what the police told him, and might well have over-reacted. Doesn't sound like we'll ever know for sure, but it SEEMS like there's wrong on both sides, if we trust the news. I know if I were confronted with a guy that much bigger than me, I'd be scared.
Unquestionably there is a tendency to jump to conclusions of "racism!"; we have such a history of it in this country, and it does continue, so it's inevitable. It's very sad.
For one thing, I don't think these "neighborhood watch" guys should be allowed to intervene, only to do just that, WATCH, and work with the police. I think he should face some kind of punishment for going on his own, because of he hadn't, this whole things probably wouldn't have happened. Maybe just a reprimand, but whatever happens, in my opinion he shouldn't be allowed to be in the neighborhood watch anymore. They're not trained yet they're carrying deadly weapons and have to use their own discretion how to act. That would make ME damned nervous if they were in MY neighborhood.
We'll no doubt never know for sure what happened in this case, it's just my opinion that there was probably some wrong on both sides and someone died who didn't need to, who was just going on his way (maybe slowly because he was looking for the right house--it wasn't his home, he was just staying there). All we can know for sure is that if Zimmerman hadn't acted as he did, nothing would have happened. And there's the fact that blacks are more "threatening" to many people...if it had been a white kid, I don't think this would have happened. These are the times we live in.
Monday, March 19, 2012 6:45 AM
Monday, March 19, 2012 7:16 AM
Monday, March 19, 2012 7:33 AM
Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez:
This is so fucked up. I do blame the guy with the gun, absolutely, and these laws. I don't hear anyone in these articles talking about the KID's right to defend himself. The people defending the shooter (not on this thread, but on other news sites) seem to think the big guy with the gun, who invited himself into this situation against express recommendations from the police, had a right to use deadly force. But a teen getting stalked by someone much bigger than him didn't have a right to bunch his attacker in the nose?
Bullshit. The shooter invited himself into the situation. He created it, and an innocent kid is now dead. That is a crime.
I'm glad there are protests going on about this, and I hope the FBI does step in. And I hope other wanna-be heroes pay attention. This is the likely outcome of thinking you should step in with your big gun and save the world.
I wish I could see inside Zimmerman's head, to see how he's justifying this. I wonder if he's re-constructed the whole thing so it's not his fault, rather than accepting guilt. I wonder if he's capable of thinking of himself as a bully who killed an innocent child.
BTW: I would add that I think it is possible that racism was involved. If it'd been a white kid walking down the street, would it have happened the same? After reading the articles here though, I can't fault the police. They seem to be stuck because of the laws.
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
Monday, March 19, 2012 9:36 AM
Quote:Zimmerman's documented actions did not break the law. The fact that he was bleeding after a witness described them fighting gives legitimacy to Zimmerman's decision to use deadly force under Florida's Castle doctrine.
Quote:But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective peppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.
Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News.
Monday, March 19, 2012 9:51 AM
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, March 19, 2012 11:42 AM
Monday, March 19, 2012 11:59 AM
To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis
Monday, March 19, 2012 12:02 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 12:10 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 12:14 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 12:19 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 12:23 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 1:22 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
People who have never been exposed to real life amuse me.
I'm getting a kick out of those who live in their safe, little worlds talking about things they have no understanding of.
Yes. Lets make a law that has all guns be illegal. That will work. Especially when I hear someone kicking in my door. I'll grab a cricket bat (providing those arn't against the law) and defend myself and my family.
We can be just like Britain. Makes sense.
Monday, March 19, 2012 1:34 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 3:13 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 6:26 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 7:10 PM
Monday, March 19, 2012 10:47 PM
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 3:29 AM
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:25 AM
Quote:The father of the teen, Tracy Martin, was told by police that Zimmerman had a ‘squeaky-clean’ record and that is why he has not been charged yet. Zimmerman was arrested back in 2005 in Orange County for resisting arrest using violence and battery on a law enforcement officer, according to public records. The records were found with the Orange County Clerk of Courts. The charges were filed in July of 2005 but were dropped.
“They just lied to the family,” Crump said. “They just couldn’t see why [Zimmerman] would do anything wrong or be violent. But not only do you know the guy killed this kid, because he admitted to it, you knew that he has a propensity for violence because of his past record.”
Tracy Martin said in an interview last week that he was told by officers that:
“They respected [Zimmerman's] background, that he studied criminal justice for four years and that he was squeaky clean. My question to them was, did they run my child’s background check? They said yes. I asked them what they came up with, and they said nothing. http://www.jdjournal.com/2012/03/12/neighborhood-watch-captain-involved-in-shooting-has-violent-past/ more that comes out, I'm starting to see a guy who might well have a bit of a hair trigger; dunno why the charges were dropped, but from what the cops in Florida said, maybe the police in the other incident respected him too, or he apologized, or something. But it's THERE and shows he could be aggressive, even toward cops.
The facts BEFORE the shooting are pretty clear. The kid was carrying candy, etc., and had just come back from the convenience store. Zimmerman called him in, was told not to follow him, followed him in his car and then on foot.
As to racism, they say Zimmerman has friends and relatives who are Black. That doesn't mean that a Black kid, walking through a gated community at night, wearing a hoodie, wouldn't be more suspicious to any "community watch" person than a white kid. That he PUSHED the situation speaks to me, and I just don't buy a kid who's got a clean record, isn't doing anything, and is much smaller, starting something as easily as a guy who WANTS to be in a position of authority, makes many calls to 911, is interested in criminal law and has at least one previous incident of being violent to an authority figure.
That's where I stand until and unless some further information comes out.
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:49 AM
Quote:Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee has characterized Martin as the aggressor, based on the police department’s investigation. In an interview published by the Miami Herald, Lee asked rhetorically, “If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”
Actually, in Florida, it might be.
Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger. Section 776.013 provides:
“A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”
Trayvon Martin was a teenaged boy who was walking home from a convenience store. He was not engaged in an unlawful activity. He was in a place where he had a right to be – near the home of his father’s fiancée. George Zimmerman followed him, even after being told by the 911 dispatcher not to. Zimmerman left his vehicle holding a loaded gun and began pursuing Martin on foot. It is plausible to infer that Zimmerman, not Martin, initiated the attack. The tapes indicate that Zimmerman may have been the aggressor in initiating contact with Martin. Assuming the published reports are true, Martin, not Zimmerman, was exercising his lawful right to “stand his ground and meet force with force” by engaging in an altercation with Zimmerman.
By questioning why Martin didn’t simply stop and answer Zimmerman’s questions, and characterizing Martin as the aggressor, Sanford Police Department Chief Bill Lee Jr. appears to have assessed the Martin case using the standards that apply to law enforcement officers. This is wrong. Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.
Being the local neighborhood watch captain does not elevate him to that status. Nor was Zimmerman asked by any law enforcement officer to assist in detaining Martin – in fact, he was specifically told not to follow Martin. Zimmerman is entitled to none of the presumptions available to law enforcement officers under Florida law. The presumptions of acting in good faith that are afforded to law enforcement officers do not apply to Zimmerman.
If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense. Under Section 776.041, use of force is not justifiable under the statute to a person who initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
“(a) such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.”
Neither exception applies to Zimmerman. Martin was armed only with a bag of Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea. Zimmerman had a 9mm handgun. http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/19/opinion-trayvon-martin-not-george-zimmerman-was-engaged-in-self-defense/?hpt=hp_t1 makes sense to me.
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 6:59 AM
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 7:35 AM
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:03 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2:
Under the same self-defense statute that Zimmerman is relying on to avoid prosecution, Trayvon Martin also had the right to defend himself against a perceived threat of danger.
Martin was under no legal duty to obey or to cooperate with Zimmerman in being questioned, because George Zimmerman is not a law enforcement officer.
If Zimmerman provoked the altercation with Martin, he is not entitled to claim self-defense.
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:04 AM
Quote: A Black Militia Group Says It Plans To Arrest The Neighborhood Watchman Who Shot A Black Teenager
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:22 AM
Quote:Castle doctrine does apply under Florida law.
Quote:A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal doctrine that designates a person's abode (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as a car or place of work) as a place in which the person has certain protections and immunities and may in certain circumstances attack an intruder without becoming liable to prosecution.
Quote:The term derives from the historic English common law dictum that "an Englishman's home is his castle".
Quote:I am saying that from the available evidence, no crime was committed.
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 9:27 AM
Quote:Originally posted by mal4prez:
Frem: I've known public defenders, and I'd kindly ask you to be less blanket-y with those blanket statements. I understand that you have many bad ones in your life, but there are some damned fine people out there trying to do their jobs.
Quote:ETA: OK, I'm feeling a lot less like going easy on the police, after seeing how they "investigated", and what Zimmerman's initial story was. The man lied, and I think he's well on his way to finally getting busted.
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:28 AM
Tuesday, March 20, 2012 11:42 AM
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