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"Racism is dead in America." Bullshit

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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:20 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?

You can't legally punch someone for hitting you, but you CAN kill someone for your self defense (if they're poor).
So, jungle anyone?


The Mal-like Chrisisall


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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:35 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Ha ha, frack that; I looked my menacing German Shepherd in the eye and asked it if it wanted to be dead.
I was not in a good mood. It realized that I was not to be fracked with.
Intent is important when dealing with animals.

Riddickisall




" It's an animal thing. "




"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 5:44 PM

CHRISISALL


AU, that was great, LOL!!


The Mal-like Chrisisall


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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:04 PM

OONJERAH



Yo, Chris, how's it going?

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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Stayin' strong in the struggle, my friend!

Makin' the models I can.

Lovin' my Wife & Son...

Waiting for John Carter to come out on DVD (Loved the flick).

Preparing for the subtle but inevitable Fascist power grab circumventing our Constitution.

I SO can't wait for future President Romney to leave office...


The Mal-like Chrisisall


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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:46 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Troll

I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?




Also, if you're armed, stalking someone and accosting them, you're not "standing your ground" or defending your "castle"; you're hunting people, plain and simple, and just begging for any excuse to kill someone.


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Wednesday, March 21, 2012 7:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



I stand by my comments.

And, FYI - someone forwarded the available info and case specific data to former states attorney and governor jennifer granholm, who I have a ton of respect for - and while she said it far more diplomatically, her review of the situation is in all particulars identical to mine.

Second degree murder.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 3:39 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If people were smart, they would use this as a way to talk about the real issues.- Wulf

And what, in your estimation, are the "real issues"? - Kwicko



Did we ever get Wulf's wisdom on the topic?

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 3:47 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I stand by my comments.


That makes two of us.


The Mal-like Chrisisall


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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:12 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


The issues here are not racism, or gun-control, or stand-your-ground laws.

The issue is that there is a perception that a certain group (or groups) are dangerous. For the most part, its earned... but its also cultivated.

Then, thrown into the mix, is the idea that "clothes make the man". Combine the 2, a perceived dangerous group, in clothing that promotes said image of savagery...

along with a man who is determined to keep his area safe...

and this is what happens.

I won't pretend things like this won't happen in the future.... but a solution will require a shift in culture of said group.

Culture X needs to radically alter their behavior, and goals.

I wonder what would have happened, if it had been an asian kid. Asians are not known as being an overtly dangerous group.

Now, if the kid was asian, and wearing gangster gear (Fubu, hoodie, Tims... whatever) would this have turned out the same? It might have.

Its what I was talking about before. Stereotypes don't just happen. Sometimes its made up to make one group feel superior to the other...

and other times its "earned" in that enough of "outsiders" have observed certain behaviors by a group that it can be reasonably given.

The answer here might simply be that this kid, being part of certain group through no fault of his own (birth), wearing clothing associated with the negative steretypes of said group, ran afoul of another man, who was bound and determined to keep his area safe from the negatives of said group.

In other words, this kid was a victim of the negative aspects (both perceived and vetted) of his grouping. Wearing clothing that added to said negative view.

Maybe the group should work to change its perception by the other groups living with and near it.

Yes, we are all individuals. As individuals we can be awesome. However, we are each judged daily... by the clothes we wear, our hairstyle, the way we walk, the way we talk,

add to that, the things we cannot change.

So, you are grouped especially by the things you cannot change. Maybe, you should work towards promoting a good image of said group.


Before you jump on me, I'm not saying its this kids fault for being shot. Far from it. I'm pointing out that there were aspects outside of him, that helped lead to this. He got caught up in them with tragic results.


"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:14 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Injuries are substantive proof of assault

CT, it's not 'assault' if it was Trayvon acting in self-defence, which seems to have been the case. Even if Trayvon jumped Zimmerman, HE WAS BEING STALKED - so such an action could reasonably be construed as defensive.

It's not personal. It's just war.




Exactly. Z's injuries are substantive proof of nothing.

As to the alleged eye-witness, we've already heard one witness state that their statements to police were changed from what they said they heard and saw.


You say self defense. Was Zimmerman approaching Martin with a gun out? Zimmerman had the same right to be in that place as Martin. He had the right to follow a suspicious looking person. His neighbors had appointed him to the community watch. In essence, asking him to do that very thing.

Zimmerman's injuries do back up a justification for use of force. Which is all required under Florida law. "Why did you use deadly force?" "Because I was being battered by the decedent." End of story. Brutal, but the end.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:21 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Troll

I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?


As long as the gun is holstered, it has no bearing on the events. There was no stalking. Zimmerman had the same right as Martin to be in that spot. Whatever happened between the two of them remains a mystery. But from an eyewitness and the subsequent physical injury to Zimmerman we know that Martin battered Zimmerman. At that point, the gun comes into play. Zimmerman had all the justification to use deadly force required under law.

Do I think it was right and prudent? Depends on the circumstances. Did Zimmerman try to hold Martin at gunpoint? Unknown. Could it have gone down better? Absolutely.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:23 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?

You can't legally punch someone for hitting you, but you CAN kill someone for your self defense (if they're poor).
So, jungle anyone?



Under Florida law, yes. Under Florida law you can punch someone for hitting you. Since the law is silent on the use of non-deadly force when threatened, it is permissible. In fact, since an eyewitness saw Zimmerman and Martin fighting, we can conclude that Zimmerman did or attempted to, punch Martin for hitting him.

Where does relative wealth enter into it?

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:26 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Troll

I just want to know - have we finally, FINALLY gotten past the idea that if you are armed and you are stalking someone that you can't claim self-defense?




Also, if you're armed, stalking someone and accosting them, you're not "standing your ground" or defending your "castle"; you're hunting people, plain and simple, and just begging for any excuse to kill someone.



There was no stalking. Zimmerman had the same right as Martin to be in that place. There was no prohibition for Zimmerman following Martin. In fact, as a community watch member he had a justification for doing so.

What was Martin's justification for hitting Zimmerman?


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Thursday, March 22, 2012 4:31 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I stand by my comments.


I could have accepted an insult delivered in heat. But when calmer demeanors return, I expect an apology from an adult.
Quote:


And, FYI - someone forwarded the available info and case specific data to former states attorney and governor jennifer granholm, who I have a ton of respect for - and while she said it far more diplomatically, her review of the situation is in all particulars identical to mine.

Second degree murder.



Thankfully, politicians and security guards are not part of law enforcement. One group passes laws ignorant of their unintended consequences. The other is not held to the same standards of performance as police.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 5:05 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:


Relevant quotes:

"The issues here are not racism"

"
The issue is that there is a perception that a certain group (or groups) are dangerous. For the most part, its earned..."

"Then, thrown into the mix, is the idea that "clothes make the man". Combine the 2, a perceived dangerous group, in clothing that promotes said image of savagery..."

"a solution will require a shift in culture of said group."

"Asians are not known as being an overtly dangerous group."

"if the kid was asian, and wearing gangster gear (Fubu, hoodie, Tims... whatever) would this have turned out the same? It might have."

"this kid was a victim of the negative aspects (both perceived and vetted) of his grouping."

"Maybe the group should work to change its perception"

And of the perpetrator?

"a man who is determined to keep his area safe..."




Hello Wulf,

Your comments remind me of the Wulf I knew.

Apparently, when black people start behaving themselves, there will be less incidents like this one.

Also, Asians are alright, but not when they dress funny.

I note that you place the real onus of change on the cultures of the victims, and not the culture that may prey on them because of gross racial and style generalizations.

--Anthony

ETA: Relevant quotes from Wulf's post.
_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 5:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


I take offense to that.

"cultures of the victims"? Explain that.

Also, stating that a culture has a perception is not un-true, or un-kind. It just is. If it has a negative aspect, working to change it for the positive might be the SMART thing to do.

AND, as to "and style generalizations.." Are you kidding me?

Heres a test. If you dress up as a police officer, would you be surprised if people thought of you as law-enforcement?

Same thing. Clothing does invoke perception. Arguing that you can dress up as a cop (when you are not one) and then be angry if people think you are law-enforcement is just stupid.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 6:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I take offense to that.


Hello,

I also found it offensive.

Quote:

"cultures of the victims"? Explain that.


In this case, the victims are those who are murdered because of the gross generalizations you mention. You put the onus of culture change on them, so that they are no longer murdered because of what people assume about them.

Quote:

Heres a test. If you dress up as a police officer, would you be surprised if people thought of you as law-enforcement?


What an interesting leap. Obviously if I dress in a manner proscribed to a profession, I will be determined to be of that profession. The iconic nature of police uniforms is actually protected by law in some places.

Quote:

Same thing. Clothing does invoke perception.


Yes, my wife's beloved hoodies, by your example, mark her as a gangsta who may be pre-emptively murdered by some shlub trying to protect his neighborhood.

Meanwhile the culture of gun-toting neighborhood commandos is given a pass for jumping to conclusions about people due to the color of their skin and choice of clothing.

Where is the talk about the culture of the aggressor? The culture of might-makes-right, assumptions are warranted, I am a yahoo cowboy, and God can sort em out?

If that culture changed, then all the other cultures and people who enjoy types of fashion would be safe. Including my poor wife and her gangsta hoodie.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:35 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Again.

If you don't want people to think you are a cop, don't dress and act like one.

If you don't want people to think you are a thug (and treat you like one), same thing applies.

Sorry that pisses you off. It doesn't change that its true, however.

We all have our crosses to bear. Being a tall, handsome, white, male... I have had to deal with being thought of as wealthy. Born with a silver spoon and all of it. I wasn't.

But because there is a perception of certain characteristics, culture and the like, you will be judged in the first 10 seconds of someone seeing you.

Its the way of the world. You may not like it, but do grow up.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

You may not like it, but do grow up.


Hello,

A grownup is someone who knows that you can't judge a person by their appearance.

It's what you do that matters.

'Walking while gangsterish' is a crime only in immature minds. The culture that needs to change, Wulf, is yours. The culture of people who excuse abuses. The "that's what they get for dressing that way" culture.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:17 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Only a fool ignores certain things in life.

The sky is blue, rain is wet, people are judged by many things (their appearance, mannerisms, history of groupings included.)

Whether it is right or wrong is not the point. That things are, as they are, is.

You are upset that someone could be judged by their clothing, their mannerisms, their skin, the way they walk, the way they talk... ok.

Its cute, but it is also like being angry at the sun for being too hot, or the wind for being too cold.

Sharks hump their backs before they attack. We know this because there have been studies done, observations made, and conclusions drawn.

As a diver, if you see a shark humping its back, you can reasonably conclude that it will attack. So you take precaution.

Is this wrong? No, you are protecting yourself, by knowing the signs that signal danger. Humans have long learned to do that, with the natural world and with each other.

Your statement is as intelligent as saying, "You can't judge a shark by the behavior of its species. So what if a shark has teeth that bite, and it shows what is known to be aggressive behavior! Turn you back to it and swim away. Being bitten is better than being cautious and acting in your own self-defense."

You may choose to do that. Others are not so willing.

The difference is that you would have us all turn our backs and take whatever comes. I say, be cautious, act accordingly, and be willing to fight.

This is going to go over the head of a lot, but it still needs to be said.

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 8:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Again.

If you don't want people to think you are a cop, don't dress and act like one.

If you don't want people to think you are a thug (and treat you like one), same thing applies.

Sorry that pisses you off. It doesn't change that its true, however.

We all have our crosses to bear. Being a tall, handsome, white, male... I have had to deal with being thought of as wealthy. Born with a silver spoon and all of it. I wasn't.

But because there is a perception of certain characteristics, culture and the like, you will be judged in the first 10 seconds of someone seeing you.

Its the way of the world. You may not like it, but do grow up.




I agree with all of this except the "grow up" part.
This happens in a lot in threads, where one person approaches a subject from the angle of 'what things should be like' and another person comes at it from the 'how they are' angle. It's not always fair to prejudge but it happens. If you want to you can hope people judge you fairly and openly, but you'd be wise to count on people judging you in a variety of ways and many of them might not be exactly kind or well thought out. All of us are judged every single day, even here.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:05 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Been listening and reading the facts emerging as this goes along. It paints a pretty strange picture, even as to whether he WAS a neighborhood-watch captain, and whether he was "on duty" or just running a personal errand, among other things. So here is what I've gleaned, from numerous sites. I've left out duplicative stuff:
Quote:

Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) -- the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch -- it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.

"In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket," Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens' Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. "Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon."

Despite this, Zimmerman admitted that he had fired a weapon on the night of the incident. In addition, the non-emergency call Zimmerman placed on February 26 before the shooting revealed he had been pursuing Martin by car before accosting the youth on foot -- all direct violations of Neighborhood Watch policies. http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-
of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php

Mind you, not every neighborhood watch program HAS to be part of this organization.
Quote:

Zimmerman followed another man a year later, saying the man had spit on him. {following someone because they spit on you?}

Zimmerman’s record becomes spottier over the following years as he had a handful of run-ins with the law. In July 2005, Zimmerman was arrested after a tussle with law enforcement outside of a bar near the University of Central Florida. It was a first offense, and Zimmerman got off with a pretrial diversion program.

In August of the same year, a petition for injunction was filed against Zimmerman by a woman who cited domestic violence, and Zimmerman responded with his own petition. Both injunctions were issued.

Despite these scrapes, Zimmerman reportedly wanted to enter law enforcement himself, and was attending Seminole State College, which has a law and public safety program. In 2008, he applied to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office program for citizen law enforcement.{If he applied, why didn't he follow through? If he followed through, why did he go against every tenant of neighborhood watch?}

It is not clear where Zimmerman was employed at the time of the shooting, but records show that he was working for CarMax for an undetermined period of time before 2008.

On Monday, the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office released recordings of six non-emergency calls in which Zimmerman is heard reporting mundane happenings around his neighborhood. In one of the calls he reports spotting two African-American males who match the description of suspects from a recent robbery. In another, he reports a neighbor’s open garage door.

Others members of the community, including Ibrahim Rashada, told reporters that Zimmerman’s behavior was sometimes unnerving, as when the watchman emailed a description of a suspect to other residents. “I fit the stereotype he emailed around,” Rashada said. After that, Rashada didn’t feel comfortable taking walks around his neighborhood. “I don’t want anyone chasing me,” he said. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-the-
man-who-shot-trayvon-martin-profiled-by-family-and-neighbors.html
28-year-old George Zimmerman was discovered by Sanford, Florida police standing over the body of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they accepted Zimmerman's claim that he killed in self-defense as a neighborhood watch captain.

"The alleged action of a 'self-appointed neighborhood watchman' last month in Sanford, FL significantly contradicts the principles of the Neighborhood Watch Program," NSA Executive Director Aaron D. Kennard, Sheriff (ret.) said in the press statement. "NSA has no information indicating the community where the incident occurred has ever even registered with the NSA Neighborhood Watch program." http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-
of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php
there's this, according to the police chief:
Quote:

Chief Lee further states that, “Zimmerman was in fact on a personal errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in his community and called the Sanford Police Department." http://brp305.wordpress.com/2012/03/21/sanford-police-chief-bill-lee-c
rime-watch-captain-george-zimmerman-partners-for-life/
] After the 911 call was released last week, speculation arose over whether Zimmerman — who told the dispatcher "these a-holes, they always get away" — used a racial slur.

Tracy Martin told NBC he hadn't heard the entire tape, but he and Crump said they were shocked by Zimmerman's use of racially suggestive language, such as "these people." http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-shooting-paren
ts-call-george-zimmerman-arrest-article-1.1048076

I've heard the stuff about him possibly having muttered "fucking coon" on the 911 call too, but it's so garbled I wouldn't want to swear to it. But the "they always get away" is verified. That in itself, along with all the other facts that have come out, paint a picture of someone who is enamored of law enforcement (definitely going beyond the bounds necessary), has been aggressive in the past, and has, at the very least, some preconceptions about people.

I think what is bothering me the most currently is that nowhere, on line or in the news, do I hear anyone at ALL bringing up the point that this law pertains to TRAYVON, not just Zimmerman. He was being stalked, there is no question about that, first by car and then on foot. He had every right to ask why the man was following him, and to defend himself if he felt threatened (I sure would if some burly guy was following me for quite some time late at night!). Ergo, the argument that Zimmerman had some bruises means nothing; if Trayvon felt threatened, he had a right to defend himself under the law.

There are so many questions, it seems to me anyone who wasn't desperate to make Zimmerman the good guy has GOT to be wondering. Obviously that's not the case for many, and some here, but if people were to take a step back and look at the FACTS, they should be wondering.
Quote:

.... law enforcement expert Rod Wheeler who listened to the tapes tells ABC News that Zimmerman, not Martin, sounded intoxicated in the police recordings of the 911 calls.

"When I listened to the 911 tape the first thing that came to my mind is this guy sounds intoxicated. Notice how he's slurring his words. We as trained law enforcement officers, we know how to listen for that right away and I think that's going to be an important element of this entire investigation," Wheeler said.

But Zimmerman was not tested. " http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-fbi-investigation
-killing/story?id=15949879

"ABC News has learned police seemed to accept Zimmerman's account at face value that night and that he was not tested for drugs or alcohol on the night of the shooting, even though it is standard procedure in most homicide investigations." http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-fbi-investigation
-killing/story?id=15949879
] Witnesses told ABC News they heard Zimmerman pronounce, "It was self-defense," and place the gun on the ground.

But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective peppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, that it was Zimmerman who cried for help, the witness told ABC News.

Lee publicly admitted that officers accepted Zimmerman's word at the scene that he had no police record. Two days after the incident, during a meeting with the victim's father, Tracy Martin, an officer told the father that Zimmerman's record was "squeaky clean." Yet public records showed that Zimmerman was charged with battery against on officer and resisting arrest in 2005, a charge that was later expunged. http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-family-seeks-fbi-investigation
-killing/story?id=15949879
just too much to make you wonder. The cops not only took him at his word, they let him go, they let him go with his loaded gun still in his possession. No sobriety test was administered, so we can never know if he was inebriated. It doesn't appear that a proper investigation was undertaken; they took him at his word for everything, before even checking his record, even saying he was "squeaky clean" TWO DAYS after the incident, meaning they had made no investigation of him even then.

Trayvon, on the other hand, has NO record of violence whatsoever, wasn't bothering anyone and possessed nothing but a bag of skittles and a soft drink.

Then there's the phone call with his girlfriend:
Quote:

Trayvon's phone logs, also obtained exclusively by ABC News, show the conversation occurred five minutes before police first arrived on the scene. Crump said the girl's identity was being withheld because "her parents are gravely concerned about her health and her safety." Her parents asked that only an attorney be allowed to ask her questions.

Martin's father, Tracey Martin, and mother, Sybrina Fulton, listened to the call, along with ABC News, ashen-faced. "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away from the guy, and the guy still caught up with him," Tracey Martin said. "And that's the most disturbing part. He thought he had got away from the guy, and the guy backtracked for him."

The girl was so distraught after the killing that she spent a night in the hospital, the lawyer said. "She was really traumatized over this. They were dating. ... It's a situation where to know you were the last person to talk to the young man who was one of the most special persons in the world to you," Crump said. The lawyer said he would give the details of the phone call to the federal investigation. http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-death-friend-phone-teen-death-
recounts/story?id=15959017#.T2ibdI42_7n

I don't believe they can "listen to" the call, can they? But the logs have shown the call took place, so that backs up that part of her story. I think he was smart not to run while he knew Zimmerman was pursuing him, it would only make him look guilty.

There's more:
Quote:

His neighbors felt protected because he always kept a watchful eye over the community. However, others say he was an overzealous, paranoid racist that so desperately wanted to be in law enforcement he tends to take matters into his own hands. Mr. Zimmerman was born in Virginia and always desired to be in law enforcement.

According to information released by The Orlando Sentinel, Zimmerman had several run-ins with the law ranging from domestic abuse to exchanging blows with local law enforcement.

However, each time he barely got a slap on the wrist. He appointed himself as the local neighborhood watch Captain, and so far it looks like he was also the only member. In the past year he made 50 phone calls to 911 reporting suspicious activity, which usually turned out to be mundane. A young African American student, 17, who also resides at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, said there are not a lot of African Americans in his community. Usually he and his friend would wait and sit up the street until Zimmerman finished doing his “rounds” because they felt uncomfortable.

When they greeted Mr. Zimmerman there greets always went unanswered, according to the teen boys. The self-appointed neighborhood watch captain even confronted one of the boys stating they stole a bike, later they found out the bike was never stolen and an apology was never given. http://www.newspitter.com/2012/03/22/a-closer-look-at-trayvon-martins-
shooter-george-zimmerman?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-closer-look-at-trayvon-martins-shooter-george-zimmerman

How can people not, at the very least, have questions about Zimmerman and his story, and the police? I just don't get it; there's so much that is illogical or questionable about how it was handled, I don't understand why people are so determined to defend Zimmerman without even knowing all the facts, and with what facts are available clearly indicating there is something wrong with how it was handled.



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:22 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wulf, you are still stuck in that world of yours where everything is black and white.
Quote:

You are upset that someone could be judged by their clothing, their mannerisms, their skin, the way they walk, the way they talk... ok.

Its cute, but it is also like being angry at the sun for being too hot, or the wind for being too cold.

That's a stupid statement. In your world, everyone should dress alike, walk alike and talk alike, or it's THEIR fault if someone attacks them. It's precisely the mentality of "It's her fault she was raped; look at what she's wearing"...which, come to think of it, you probably agree with as well.

What happened to that "libertarian" belief that we should be free to do as we want without anyone forcing us to do what THEY want? Apparently that's interpreted as "look like and do whatever the majority wants, or you have no rights".

In your world, Indian women shouldn't wear saris, Jews shouldn't wear things on their heads, Catholics shouldn't wear crosses, and on and on, because it makes them "different" from the "norm". The fact that people are stereotyped is exactly because of mentalities such as yours. Not everyone sees a Black man wearing a hoodie as someone they should attack because they are different. Some do; too many do; that doesn't mean everyone should give up their rights because others prejudge them.

Actually, it's not even looking like the majority--the VAST majority of people have no problem with people looking differently from them. It's the small MINORITY who pick on the "other". So in your world, we should all be ruled by the minority of bigoted people who won't accept us unless we meet their precise requirements. Not try to change them, not try to widen their horizons, not insist they treat those differently from them with respect, just obey this minority's "laws", in order to survive.

These people aren't the "sun"; they don't have the right to demand we all acquiesce to their stereotypes. The sun is a FACT; racism and prejudice aren't scientific facts, they are aspects of society we MUST somehow eventually minimize to such a degree that people don't get killed because of others' prejudices. Denegrating this by calling it "cute" is indiscribably offensive. It's absolutely amazing for someone who has always professed the attitude you have displayed to say that everyone should bow down to a minority because "that's the way it is". According to you, a woman shouldn't try to assert her rights in any Muslim country; no society should ever evolve; slaves should never have fought for their freedom; people who beat their wives shouldn't be punished by the law because "she should have known better than to piss him off". I'm sure you can't see or understand any of that, but that is how it REALLY is.

I can't even find words to describe how utterly racist and horrible your concept is.



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:25 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

There was no stalking. Zimmerman had the same right as Martin to be in that place.

There was no stalking?? What planet are you living on? Zimmerman said by his own account that he stalked Martin.

Quote:

There was no prohibition for Zimmerman following Martin.

Sure, but if you stalk somebody in the dark they have a right to feel threatened and to protect themselves with force under Florida self-defence laws.

Quote:

What was Martin's justification for hitting Zimmerman?

See above. By the way, I love how you've filled in all the blanks in this case yourself. You've established that it was Martin who attacked Zimmerman have you? Based on what?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:28 AM

HKCAVALIER


So, black teenagers should stop wearing hoodies. The problem is this: how do gangsters dress? LIKE YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY. Was Martin wearing colors, bandanas, anything that would actually distinguish him as a gang member??? Not on your life.

It's not the clothing that makes white folks think "gangster," it's black people in the clothing. Wolf wants black people to dress like Urkle or Bill Cosby so as not to get shot at. This is disgusting. And women who wear a dress that falls more than a hand's width above the knee are asking to be raped. It's the same specious logic. And so, because a significant number of violent bastards in our culture think this way, then their multitudinous potential victims should damn well act accordingly or be branded stupid and "asking for it?"

What in god's name is the readily available, cheap and practical alternative to the hoodie? Something, btw, anyone who shops at Old Navy--a notorious gang supply house--will own. So, okay, it's not racism, it's class and culture war. So, now if it isn't the race of the victim, it's the fact that the victim can't afford a $150 rain jacket from REI.

Pizmo, any argument that proceeds from the premise, "This is HOW things are" can and will be employed by the ruling class to keep the underclass "WHERE they are." It's a logical fallacy, it's an argument from authority (heh). The argument that black teenagers should change the way they dress to avoid getting shot at by random "good citizens" serves no one but those who would rather not be held accountable for their atrocious attacks on black teenagers. It doesn't serve you or me. And it doesn't serve Trayvon Martin's family.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:29 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
How can people not, at the very least, have questions about Zimmerman and his story, and the police? I just don't get it; there's so much that is illogical or questionable about how it was handled, I don't understand why people are so determined to defend Zimmerman without even knowing all the facts, and with what facts are available clearly indicating there is something wrong with how it was handled.



I've not seen or heard anyone anywhere defend Zimmerman - someone in this thread?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Your statement is as intelligent as saying, "You can't judge a shark by the behavior of its species. So what if a shark has teeth that bite, and it shows what is known to be aggressive behavior! Turn you back to it and swim away. Being bitten is better than being cautious and acting in your own self-defense."


Hello,

You are wrong. Once again you create a framework for your argument that has no basis on the discussion. Your statement has massive logical fallacies.

Your logic is as follows: Gangsters are violent people who wear hoodies.

Hence: Everyone who wears hoodies is a violent gangster.

Which is not only logically incorrect, but OBSERVABLY incorrect as well. We all know that this same clothing is sold to gangsters and non-gangsters alike. Yet you still claim it is a correct assumption to assume "Person dressed X is obviously a gangster and I have to protect myself from their aggression or crime."

In fact, the problem is twofold. Not only are illogic leaps being made to reach conclusions which are observably false in many instances, but illogical responses are being made based on these illogical leaps. Even if your twisted thinking assigns a twisted identity to someone based on appearance, to then pursue escalation behavior with that person is ludicrous.

The problem isn't perception, it's laziness. This is because while you may have observed gangstas with hoodies, you have also observed non-gangstas with hoodies. But delving deeper is too much work, so it's easier to just slap the label on across the board. Then you excuse the behavior with, "It's just the way things are" thereby absolving yourself of any responsibility to change.

THEN after absolving yourself of such responsibility, YOU ACTUALLY ASSIGN THAT RESPONSIBILITY TO OTHERS!

"They" should change so that you can continue to make your lazy assumptions. "You" can enjoy life the way it is.

Here's the way life really is. "They" aren't all the same. "You" can't be bothered. But you sure want to justify bothering "Them."

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:35 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I'm hoping someone can answer this question: if I decide to murder someone, and I have a gun, and I wait till there is no one else around and then shoot that person - can I get away with it as long as I claim self-defense? B/c as long as there are no witnesses to say any different, the police can't really assume it was murder. Right? It seems like that's what it boils down to in this case.



I might try this. Go to Florida or some other US Southern state, hassle some white kid (I'm a black man by the way), acquire a few cuts and bruises, shoot him dead, and then when the police arrive claim self-defence. I'll be released on the spot right?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:37 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
So, black teenagers should stop wearing hoodies. The problem is this: how do gangsters dress? LIKE YOUNG PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY. Was Martin wearing colors, bandanas, anything that would actually distinguish him as a gang member??? Not on your life.

It's not the clothing that makes white folks think "gangster," it's black people in the clothing. Wolf wants black people to dress like Urkle or Bill Cosby so as not to get shot at. This is disgusting. And women who wear a dress that falls more than a hand's width above the knee are asking to be raped. It's the same specious logic. And so, because a significant number of violent bastards in our culture think this way, then their multitudinous potential victims should damn well act accordingly or be branded stupid and "asking for it?"

What in god's name is the readily available, cheap and practical alternative to the hoodie? Something, btw, anyone who shops at Old Navy--a notorious gang supply house--will own. So, okay, it's not racism, it's class and culture war. So, now if it isn't the race of the victim, it's the fact that the victim can't afford a $150 rain jacket from REI.

Pizmo, any argument that proceeds from the premise, "This is HOW things are" can and will be employed by the ruling class to keep the underclass "WHERE they are." It's a logical fallacy, it's an argument from authority (heh). The argument that black teenagers should change the way they dress to avoid getting shot at by random "good citizens" serves no one but those who would rather not be held accountable for their atrocious attacks on black teenagers. It doesn't serve you or me. And it doesn't serve Trayvon Martin's family.



I'm not arguing anyone should change what they wear, but everyone should at the very least understand that the world is full of bad people JUST LIKE ZIMMERMAN, and they will judge you just like he did.
I think we should work every day to make the world more fair and change the attitudes of people like Zimmerman, I don't think we should ever settle, and in the mean time as we improve things let's be smart about how effed that world can be.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:38 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
How can people not, at the very least, have questions about Zimmerman and his story, and the police? I just don't get it; there's so much that is illogical or questionable about how it was handled, I don't understand why people are so determined to defend Zimmerman without even knowing all the facts, and with what facts are available clearly indicating there is something wrong with how it was handled.



I've not seen or heard anyone anywhere defend Zimmerman - someone in this thread?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com]



Quote:

I've not seen or heard anyone anywhere defend Zimmerman - someone in this thread?




Hello,

Only indirectly by implication. The shooter was just a man trying to defend his neighborhood. He made reasonable assumptions. The victim's 'group' is to blame for those assumptions. They should improve their P.R. to protect people like this unfortunate shot boy.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:39 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"It's not the clothing that makes white folks think "gangster," it's black people in the clothing.."

Sorry, knew plenty of white boys in Fubu, that made me think gangster.

I get a kick when idiots with no history, no experience, no knowledge, try to talk like they know what is going on.

This is something you have no intelligence on. Keep to talking about Apple, and niche music, hipster.

Stick to what you know, and stop making a fool of yourself.


"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:49 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Only indirectly by implication. The shooter was just a man trying to defend his neighborhood. He made reasonable assumptions. The victim's 'group' is to blame for those assumptions. They should improve their P.R. to protect people like this unfortunate shot boy.



I thought the case against him was pretty open and shut after he ignored police telling him "don't follow him." My only question is what he'll plea.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:51 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I think we should work every day to make the world more fair and change the attitudes of people like Zimmerman, I don't think we should ever settle, and in the mean time as we improve things let's be smart about how effed that world can be.

But Pizmo! Last week no one was thinking, "Wearing a hoodie is an easy way to get shot in this effed up world." You're letting this one man's act of slaughter redefine reality, which is EXACTLY its deepest intent.

That's what violence is about. That is precisely why violent people commit violence: to control and define reality for the victim and, by implied threat, for anyone who is watching.

It's what the attackers on 9/11 wanted to do. They wanted the terror of that morning to redefine our reality. And, to our unutterable shame in this country, they have largely succeeded.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 9:57 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I think we should work every day to make the world more fair and change the attitudes of people like Zimmerman, I don't think we should ever settle, and in the mean time as we improve things let's be smart about how effed that world can be.

But Pizmo! Last week no one was thinking, "Wearing a hoodie is an easy way to get shot in this effed up world." You're letting this one man's act of slaughter redefine reality, which is EXACTLY its deepest intent.

That's what violence is about. That is precisely why violent people commit violence: to control and define reality for the victim and, by implied threat, for anyone who is watching.

It's what the attackers on 9/11 wanted to do. They wanted the terror of that morning to redefine our reality. And, to our unutterable shame in this country, they have largely succeeded.




And why did they succeed?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:20 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, well:
Quote:

Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee said he must "temporarily remove myself" from duty, a day after the City Commission voted 3-2 in favor of a nonbinding measure of no confidence in him.

"My role as the leader of this agency has become a distraction from the investigation …." Lee said during a news conference.

Zimmerman has not been arrested. Police say they have not charged Zimmerman because they have no evidence to contradict his story that he shot in self-defense, leading to a new debate over a controversial state law. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/sanford-police-chief-temporarily-
steps-down/?hpt=hp_c1
last is curious, to me, and brings to mind Kiki's question about killing someone then claiming self-defense. They have no evidence his story is TRUE, either, yet they chose to think in terms of "We can't prove he's lying". That's like saying "if you're dead, and nobody can offer evidence that you were killed wrongly, you get away with it", just as Kiki posited. How insane! There is no logic to this whatsoever. They HAD evidence Zimmerman was stalking him. They HAD evidence he's been over-zealous before. They HAD evidence Trayvon had nothing but skittles and ice tea on him, whereas Zimmerman had a gun. All that before anything else came out!

Completely aside from anything else, they let him go with his loaded gun, with no sobriety test, nothing. Obviously, if it had been a Black man, neighborhood-watch captain or no, it wouldn't have happened this way. How they can conceivabl justify what they did is beyond me.

Hope this law gets trashed in every state where it exists. It literally DOES say that if you're found standing over the body of someone with a loaded gun and ADMIT you shot them, if nobody saw anything and before any investigation goes on--say as to whether your injuries were self-inflicted, whether you were drunk, whether you were stalking the person, whether they were armed or not, whether they were doing ANYTHING wrong--you go home with your gun. How crazy is that?!?!

There'd BETTER be a GOOD investigation, 'cuz there are too many questions and not nearly enough answers. Someone should take a good long look at that police department from top to bottom; given one of the police CONTRADICTED a witnesses statement that Travvon yelled help, and another questioned Zimmerman rather than let him tell his story, and the fact that it wasn't the police chief, it was the OFFICERS who took Zimmerman at his word and sent him home, there should be a serious investigation.

Yes, attitude is top down, but these officers had no problem doing what they did; THEY should be investigated as well.



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:21 AM

CAVETROLL


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

There was no stalking. Zimmerman had the same right as Martin to be in that place.

There was no stalking?? What planet are you living on? Zimmerman said by his own account that he stalked Martin.


Florida's legal definition of stalking.
Quote:


FLORIDA

Section 784.048. STALKING; DEFINITIONS; PENALTIES. 1997.

(1) As used in this section, the term:

(a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.

(b) "Course of conduct" means a pattern a conduct composed of series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.

(c) "Credible threat" means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person.

(2) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking, a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(3) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person, and makes a credible threat with the intent to place that person in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury, commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(4) Any person who, after an injunction for protection against repeat violence pursuant to s. 784.046, or an injunction for protection against domestic violence pursuant to s. 741.30, or after any other court-imposed prohibition of conduct toward the subject person that person's property, knowingly, willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(5) Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses a minor under 16 years of age commits the offense of aggravated stalking, a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, so. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

(6) Any law enforcement officer may arrest, without a warrant, any person he or she has probable cause to believe has violated the provisions of this section.


Zimmerman's actions served a legitimate purpose. This was an isolated incident, not a pattern of conduct. There was no credible threat prior to the incident. There was no repetition prior to the incident. There was no injunction.

Calling it stalking fails every test against the law.
Quote:


Quote:

There was no prohibition for Zimmerman following Martin.

Sure, but if you stalk somebody in the dark they have a right to feel threatened and to protect themselves with force under Florida self-defence laws.
Do you know what happened between Zimmerman and Martin? Did Martin speak to Zimmerman or run? Did Zimmerman immediately get physical with Martin? It's a huge unknown. Supposition and guesswork only weaken any legal case that may come of this.
Quote:


Quote:

What was Martin's justification for hitting Zimmerman?

See above. By the way, I love how you've filled in all the blanks in this case yourself. You've established that it was Martin who attacked Zimmerman have you? Based on what?




I said hitting, not attacking. Do not put words in my mouth. Read the ABC news report I have linked multiple times in this thread. (Which I am beginning to feel nobody is reading.) There was an eyewitness who said he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound on the back of his head. One of the police officers noted that his back was wet and covered in grass. Again, this is evidence that supports the eyewitness account.

Other points;
1) The Sanford police had a narcotics detective do the initial interview. However, a detective from their major crimes group did the investigation. The initial interview is essentially a statement.
2) Zimmerman was not tested for drugs or alcohol because excepting DUI, the police cannot test for drugs or alcohol unless the accused demands or consents to it.
3) The preliminary investigation has concluded that no crime was committed. Trying the case in the press never works out. Let the police do their job. Plenty of people walk for crimes without the public forming mobs and calling for someone's head on a platter. Remember Casey Anthony? How many media clowns were sure she was guilty? How long was that case tried in the media? What happened? She walked.
4) There was no immediate arrest because the police have no obligation to make an arrest immediately. Investigations can take weeks, months or even years. Believing a crime has been committed and being able to prove it in court are two different things.
5) George Zimmerman had run ins with the law. So what? Plenty of people have had run ins with the law. Some of them have gone on to become policemen, lawyers, judges or elected officials.
6) Zimmerman referred to Martin as a "coon". Being a racist is morally repugnant, not illegal. Additionally, CNN has reviewed the 911 tapes, including using audio enhancement and cannot confirm that is the case.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/21/did-trayvon-martins-shooter-use-a
-racial-slur/?hpt=hp_c1

7)Zimmerman was slurring his words. Post-shooting effects include psychological shock. See page 31; http://digitalcommons.library.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=131
0&context=thesesdissertations
One of the known side effects of shock is slurred speech or other speech disorders.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 10:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

There was no stalking. Zimmerman had the same right as Martin to be in that place.
First, as mentioned, Zimmerman ADMITTED he was staling Traynor, first by car, then on foot. Second, Trayvon had the same right as Zimmerman to be in that place, as well.
Quote:

What was Martin's justification for hitting Zimmerman?
Leaving out that you have no way of knowing if Martin hit Zimmerman first or Zimmerman hit Martin, Trayvon's "justification" is the exact law that they say gave Zimmerman the right to shoot him. Feeling threatened. Going about his business, doing no harm, and having someone who has 100 lbs. on him follow him in the dark and demand to know what he's doing there. Remember that little "stand your ground" law?
Quote:

I get a kick when idiots with no history, no experience, no knowledge, try to talk like they know what is going on.

This is something you have no intelligence on. Keep to talking about Apple, and niche music, hipster.

Stick to what you know, and stop making a fool of yourself.

I see you're right back to your usual mud slinging, nothing has changed. Nobody here has shown "no knowledge", and your "experience" is YOUR experience, not the entire world. Merely stating "there was no stalking" when Zimmerman openly admitted he stalked the kid shows your deliberate ignorance. Claiming something is not what it has been STATED to be isn't ignorance, it's deliberate ignorance. Deliberate ignorance of the facts is stupidity.

Calling people fools and idiots does nothing but make you look like an idiotic fool.



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



"Higher" learning at Florida Atlantic University.

( dunno how long this'll be up....)

#!



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/white-fuin-mother-fuers-would-die-fl-s
tudent-flips-out-in-class-threatens-to-kill-prof
/






"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer. You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. - Someone.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:10 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Niki, you had pikes ready and set to put this guys head on... when he was white....

now you've backed off that, and are trying a different tact.

This was a bad situation, that had bad consequences. Nothing more.

I was trying to point out how this could have been averted, maybe set us all on a better path... but you and yours fall on the same tired tactics that led to this.

That in fact, CAUSED this.

You can't see it. Yet, there were (ARE) others who were (ARE) smart enough to know that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth.

Lo siento, but this might actually bring things to a head.

ETA: Cus, I for one, am past tired of this PC, post-hippy B.S.

Its done, its over. 1960s to 2012s. Over 50 years of it. Im heartened by the fact that this generation is now starting to buck. And, are starting to finally look at how things really are.


"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:26 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I was trying to point out how this could have been averted


Hello,

Yes, your solution is telling.

Here, I paraphrase:

Wulf Solution: "All the people we make assumptions about need to change so that we stop making assumptions about them and hurting them."

Correct Solution: "We need to stop making assumptions about people and using those assumptions to hurt them."

Wulf Response: "You can't change people, man, that's just the way it is. But all those other people, the one's we're hurting? Yeah, THEY need to change."

People can't change, This is the way things are, and also, Those people need to change.

Personal responsibility is a concept that only seems to flow in convenient directions. A young man wants to wear 'gangsta' clothes? He needs to change. Another man wants to hunt down people in 'gangsta' clothes? He's just making reasonable assumptions. It's the way of the world.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:28 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I agree with Niki, it would be awful if this wasn't investigated any further, there's lots of stuff that needs looked into. From what I know in my state, if someone kills someone in self defense its looked into to check it out. Unfortunately there are situations where the self defense killing was justified and the person who killed still gets put in jail. :( This makes me really upset. But the Zimmerman and Martin case doesn't look like that, there's enough suspicious info here that not investigating would be downright criminal.

Wulf I see what you're saying about how sometimes steriotypes come from somewhere, but after that you totally lose me.

Trayvon sounds like ,gasp, a normal kid, it sounds like he was scared of Zimmerman too, I'd be scared if some bigger guy was following me around in the dark, I can't blame him for being frightened. I feel pretty bad for his family and his girlfriend.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 11:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Niki, you had pikes ready and set to put this guys head on... when he was white....

now you've backed off that, and are trying a different tact.

Jezus, Wulf, you're amazing. I assume you haven't noticed that, as further facts came to light, I've first withheld judgment and, now that there are many more facts, I'm condemning Zimmerman? According to this I've "backed off"?? I've heard and read enough to give me serious cause to question this situation and at this point to believe Zimmerman is a loose cannon who appointed himself "chief" and wrongly killed a young man who was doing nothing. How is that backing off? And what "tact" (I think you mean "tack") am I using? Posting quotes from cites which have made me come to believe as I do? Gawd, I weep for your baby, having a father like you. If you keep it up, those who chastized us for how we feel about you will in short order understand WHY we do.

Cave:
Quote:

Was Zimmerman approaching Martin with a gun out?
Have you proof he wasn't?
Quote:

Zimmerman had the same right to be in that place as Martin
Martin had the same right to be in that place as Zimmerman, and he wasn't bothering Zimmerman.
Quote:

His neighbors had appointed him to the community watch
No. He appointed HIMSELF "neighborhood watch captain":
Quote:

When the homeowners association wanted to start a neighborhood watch, only one man stepped up: George Zimmerman
AND he was acting contrary to every rule of neighborhood watch, by pursuing someone rather than WATCHING, by carrying a concealed weapon and by accosting Martin.
Quote:

Zimmerman's injuries do back up a justification for use of force.
No, they don't. Has anyone mentioned any injuries Martin had? Surely if there was an altercation, NEITHER could get off without injuries, so how do Zimmerman's injuries prove he didn't hit Martin first?
Quote:

As long as the gun is holstered
Was it? Do you have proof?
Quote:

But from an eyewitness.... we know that Martin battered Zimmerman
You want witnesses?
Quote:

....witness Mary Cutcher ... said police only took a two or three sentence statement from her. Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman.

Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them.

"Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said.

"We said, 'Is everything OK? And he just looked at us. Selma [another witness] asked him again, 'What's up, what's going on, everything OK? And he just said, 'Call the police,' kind of nonchalantly, kind of like, 'Leave me alone,' '' Cutcher said. http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slay
ing/nLSqk
/

Quote:

A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News] http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03/18/446768/what-everyone-shoul
d-know-about-about-trayvon-martin-1995-2012
/

Quote:

Mary Cutcher describes what she witnessed that night.
"And at the time that we heard the whining and then the gunshot, we did not hear any wrestling, no punching, no fighting, nothing to make it sound like there was a fight," Cutcher said to Anderson Cooper.
Cutcher told Cooper that she does not believe the Zimmerman acted in self-defense.
"Originally, I didn't believe it was self-defense because of what we saw when we walked out on the porch. If it was self-defense, why was he on Trayvon's back?"
Another caller, Selma Mora Lamilla, who was also on Anderson Cooper 360, said she saw Zimmerman straddling Martin's body after the shooting.

Quote:

One witness also complained that police told her that she was wrong in reporting Martin called for help — saying that it was Zimmerman. http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/15/who-watches-the-watchman-florida-
family-calls-for-the-arrest-of-watch-captain-who-sought-teen/
about what some of his neighbors have to say?
Quote:

Licensed to carry a firearm and a student of criminal justice, Zimmerman went door-to-door asking residents to be on the lookout, specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders, and warned that some were caught lurking, neighbors said. Theself-appointed captain of the neighborhood watch program...

But the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin left the boy’s family and attorneys convinced that the volunteer developed a twisted sense of entitlement, one that gave him a false sense of authority to enforce the rule of law in his tiny gated community.

“He would circle the block and circle it; it was weird,” said Teontae Amie, 17. “If he had spotted me, he’d probably ask me if I lived here. He was known for being really strict.” http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249/shooter-of-trayvon-marti
n-a-habitual.html#storylink=cpy
about the police department's record?
Quote:

On at least two prior occasions, the Sanford Police Department was accused of giving favorable treatment to relatives of officers involved in violent encounters with blacks.

In 2010, police waited seven weeks to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was caught on video sucker-punching a homeless black man.

In 2005, two security guards — one the son of a longtime Sanford police officer and the other a department volunteer — killed a black man they said was trying to run them over. Black leaders complained of a lackluster investigation. The guards ultimately were acquitted.
.....
Zimmerman felt he was one of them; he felt he was a cop,” said Trayvon’s family attorney, Natalie Jackson, who accuses the police of protecting him.
.....
The recent shooting raised troubling questions about whether the homeowners association knew its volunteer was armed with a Kel Tek 9mm semiautomatic handgun. Many residents — black and white — question Zimmerman’s judgment and wonder why he would have engaged the teenager at all.
.....
He suspects Zimmerman got tired of thugs “and reached his breaking point,” Frank Taaffe, a former neighborhood block captain said. “But why was he carrying a gun? Why not carry pepper spray or a Taser? That’s bizarre-o.”

Police volunteer program coordinator Wendy Dorival said she met Zimmerman in September at a community neighborhood watch presentation.

“I said, ‘If it’s someone you don’t recognize, call us. We’ll figure it out,’?” Dorival said. “‘Observe from a safe location.’ There’s even a slide about not being vigilante police. I don’t know how many more times I can repeat it.” http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p3/shooter-of-trayvon-ma
rtin-a-habitual.html
]

Quote:

In fact, since an eyewitness saw Zimmerman and Martin fighting, we can conclude that Zimmerman did or attempted to, punch Martin for hitting him.
Again, how do you "conclude" any such thing? How do you know Zimmerman didn't grab Martin, and Martin swung at HIM in self-defense? Doesn't the "stand your ground" law cover that; that if one feels threatened, one can respond with force?
Quote:

What was Martin's justification for hitting Zimmerman?
I repeat, YOU HAVE NO PROOF Martin hit Zimmerman first. Nobody has said anything about any injuries to Martin (aside from the bullet hole). Martin's justification, again, would be the "stand your ground" law. I guess that only works one way?

Thank you for providing the material on stalking, you just made our point, tho' if you like "harrass" better, that's fine too:
Quote:

"Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
Zimmerman engaged in just such a course of conduct, resulting in Trayvon telling his girlfriend he was frightened. His "course of conduct":
Quote:

"Course of conduct" means a pattern a conduct composed of series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
The series of actions are well documented, they occurred over a short period of time--following him by car, following him on foot, and demanding to know what he was doing there--and evidenced a continuity of purpose. His actions were not "constitutionally protected"
Quote:

Any person who willfully, maliciously, and repeatedly follows or harasses another person commits the offense of stalking
That's it right there. He repeatedly followed Trayvon, causing him emotional distress, which is "harrassing", that constitutes the offense of stalking. Zimmerman willfully followed Trayvon, despite being told not to by the dispatcher, repeatedly in his car and then by foot, then demanded to know what Trayvon was doing there. "Maliciously" would need interpretation, but given his actions and words, I would say there is convincing evidence of that.

As to
Quote:

Zimmerman was slurring his words. Post-shooting effects include psychological shock.
Zimmerman was slurring his words BEFORE he shot Trayvon, if you missed that.
Quote:

.... law enforcement expert Rod Wheeler who listened to the tapes tells ABC News that Zimmerman, not Martin, sounded intoxicated in the police recordings of the 911 calls.

"When I listened to the 911 tape the first thing that came to my mind is this guy sounds intoxicated. Notice how he's slurring his words..

Zimmerman made NO 911 tapes after he shot Trayvon, only before.

You're both really desperate to defend Zimmerman's words and actions, despite all the questions about him, his background, his feelings toward Blacks, the contradictory words and actions of the police, witnesses who were told they were wrong, witnesses who contradicted Zimmerman's account of events, that's obvious. Ergo; enjoy your beliefs, I hope they give you comfort. Me, I want law enforcement to be held to the same standards for everyone, and I don't believe that came even close to having been done here.



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:13 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Oonjerah: "Sponsors of Florida ‘Stand Your Ground’ law say George
Zimmerman should be arrested" :> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-sponsors-
florida-stand-ground-law-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164


"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Herald.
"When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."


Former state Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley said
the law they wrote in 2005, which allows someone who feels threatened to
"meet force with force" without backing down first, was being misapplied
in the shooting death of the 17-year-old, the Miami Herald reported.

"They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,"
Peaden, a Republican, told the Herald. "He has no protection under my law."

Oonj: All things considered, I consider Zimmerman indefensible. Color him to be arrested soon.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:18 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Being arrested doesn't mean you are guilty... or wrong.

In this case, its a bunch of snakes, trying to hide under a rock.


"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:22 PM

OONJERAH



BTW, I wear a hoodie almost every day in cool weather. But I don't
pull the hood up unless it's colder.

I didn't realize that I look like a gangsta's moll. No one told me. :(

So is this Hoodie = Gangsta perception preDOMinant in the 49 Other States
but not sunny, sane California?

If I do get shot while wearing my hoodie, will someone please inform
my next of kin that I was asking for it?

I also have not started packing a gun whenever I go shopping.
(I'm always behind the times!)



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:29 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Pearles before Swine at this point... hoodies? In all of this? THATS what you choose to seize on?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:56 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Pearles before Swine at this point... hoodies? In all of this? THATS what you choose to seize on?

"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"





Hello,

Hoodies are what you seized upon, Wulf. Amongst other clothes. You also said the perception of Asians are that they are not as violent as Black people, UNLESS they wear particular clothes. And you also said that these 'groups' need to work to improve their public perception to avoid these situations.

It was pretty clear what these 'groups' were. And so I consider you a pretty voiciferous 'groupist.' Some people keep their 'groupist' tendencies under wraps, but you are more the loud and proud variety. You not only advocate treating people according to their 'group,' you claim this is the natural state of being. If these 'groups' want to stop having 'groupist' actions taken against them, they need to do some better P.R. work.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

Note to self: Mr. Raptor believes that women who want to control their reproductive processes are sluts.

Reference thread: http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=51196

Never forget what this man is. You keep forgiving him his trespasses and speak to him as though he is a reasonable human being. You keep forgetting the things he's advocated. If you respond to this man again, you are being foolish.

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Thursday, March 22, 2012 1:17 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oonj:

--California is not sane (I take offense at the very suggestion!)

--Maybe people just don't wear hoodies as much because of the weather here? Or maybe hoodies identifying gangstas is an East Coast thing?

--The "gangsta" mode of clothing here is usually pants worn down below the crotch, which kinda destroys the intent, 'cuz everyone just laughs at their efforts to walk. Black, White, Yellow, Purple and Green people wear them that way. And yes, some of them ARE gangers.

--I believe "prosecute" IS much better than "arrest": Prosecute the bastard!

--If the guys who WROTE the law think he should be prosecuted, I have no argument.

ETA: Ditto Anthony; he nailed it.
ETA: Wulf, enjoy your rock. If it ever gets too cold under there, you could always rejoin the human race. We won't mind.




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Thursday, March 22, 2012 1:22 PM

OONJERAH


I kinda expected this thread to lull out for a few days while we
all wait for the shoe to drop in Florida. But instead, it went to
stereotypes. Some folks do modify their behavior accordingly.


Commentary: Why black parents give their sons a 'don't' list - by Jonathan Capehart =>
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/commentary/commentary-why-black-p
arents-give-their-sons-a-2250254.html


• "Don't run in public." Lest someone think you're suspicious.
• "Don't run while carrying anything in your hands." Lest someone think you stole something.
• "Don't talk back to the police." Lest you give them a reason to take you to jail or worse.

ETA: But, in the words of Mystique, "We shouldn't have to."

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