REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

And in real world news... Iran halts oil exports to France, Britain.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 5, 2022 13:45
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Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


By ALI AKBAR DAREINI
Associated Press

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran has halted oil shipments to Britain and France, the Oil Ministry said Sunday, in an apparent pre-emptive blow against the European Union after the bloc imposed sanctions on Iran's crucial fuel exports.

The EU imposed tough sanctions against Iran last month, which included a freeze of the country's central bank assets and an oil embargo set to begin in July. Iran's Oil Minister Rostam Qassemi had warned earlier this month that Tehran could cut off oil exports to "hostile" European nations. The 27-nation EU accounts for about 18 percent of Iran's oil exports.

The EU sanctions, along with other punitive measures imposed by the U.S., are part of Western efforts to derail Iran's disputed nuclear program, which the West fears is aimed at developing atomic weapons. Iran denies the charges, and says its program is for peaceful purposes.

The spokesman for Iran's Oil Ministry, Ali Reza Nikzad-Rahbar, said on the ministry's website Sunday that "crude oil exports to British and French companies have been halted."

"We have our own customers and have no problem to sell and export our crude oil to new customers," he said.

Britain's Foreign Office declined comment, and there was no immediate response from French officials.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:15 AM

WHOZIT


And WW3 begins when?

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 11:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
And WW3 begins when?



No idea. But I find this curious , as Hillary was just saying the other day that Iran was eager to get back to the discussion table and work things out.

Quote:


February 17, 2012

NEW YORK (JTA) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton welcomed Iran's stated willingness to restart negotiations and called it an "important step."

In comments to reporters after a meeting Friday at the State Department with Catherine Ashton, the European Union policy chief, Clinton said any resumption of negotiations with Iran would require sustained effort.

“We must be assured that if we make a decision to go forward, we see a sustained effort by Iran to come to the table to work until we have reached an outcome that has Iran coming back into compliance with their international obligations,” Clinton said. “We’re evaluating all of these factors. But I think it’s fair to say ... that we think this is an important step and we welcome the letter.”

The letter in question was sent to Ashton on Tuesday by Iran's chief nuclear negotiator, Saeed Jalili, which proposed new discussions between Iran and the West.

Tensions over Iran's suspected nuclear weaspons program have been increasing steadily in recent weeks as heightened sanctions are imposed on the Islamic Republic and speculation persists of a possible Israeli military strike.







" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 1:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Capitalism at work, eh? If you have a product that the rest of the world wants, you can pretty much set your own terms. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 3:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA


*gets popcorn*

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 5:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, I think they tucked their tails between their legs and ran away, leaving Kwicko all alone in the debate.

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 5:20 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


So the EU was going to boycott Iranian oil come July anyway, and Iran cut them off in February.

Big whoop.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:02 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I suppose the level of inconvenience depends on whether the EU was ready to be cut off immediately or not.

It amounts to:

Europe: "If you don't X, then we'll cut you off soon."

Iran: "Yeah? You're cut off now."

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:42 PM

OONJERAH



Once again, I don't think Iran is wholly wise here.

I am still wondering if they have any allies. Is there any gov't on the planet that trusts Iran?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Sunday, February 19, 2012 6:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Once again, I don't think Iran is wholly wise here.

I am still wondering if they have any allies. Is there any gov't on the planet that trusts Iran?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon



Hello,

Trust is not a word that applies overmuch to diplomacy. Mutual interest is more the thing. Everyone is trusted to do what is in their own best interests. Where two best interests overlap, there is 'trust.'

So the question is really, Is there anyone who shares an interest with Iran?

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


If the EU had bluffing to boycott as part of their master plan...oops.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:15 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


War in Iraq? Done

Hurricanes in the Gulf ? Nope

Buddy-buddy with BIG OIL ? Not hardly!


So why...


Gas prices are highest ever for this time of year

AP Energy Writer= NEW YORK (AP) — Gasoline prices have never been higher this time of the year.

At $3.53 a gallon, prices are already up 25 cents since Jan. 1. And experts say they could reach a record $4.25 a gallon by late April.

"You're going to see a lot more staycations this year," says Michael Lynch, president of Strategic Energy & Economic Research. "When the price gets anywhere near $4, you really see people react."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10101097


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:33 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

In short, gas will become pricey if people who sell gas believe they can get more money from us by increasing prices. Gas will become cheaper if the people who sell gas believe they can get more money from us by lowering prices.

That's capitalism. It works for other products, too.

Immediately, high gas prices are a problem for me, because it tightens my budget. In the long-term, high gas prices are a problem for gas suppliers/sellers, because the extra cost will hasten the race towards alternative energy sources.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



And we're in a recession still. Wonder what a 'recovery' will do the the gas prices ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:47 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And we're in a recession still. Wonder what a 'recovery' will do the the gas prices ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "



Hello,

I wonder where all your observations are pointed.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I wonder where all your observations are pointed.

--Anthony




Exactly where they should be.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, February 20, 2012 10:54 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

I wonder where all your observations are pointed.

--Anthony




Exactly where they should be.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Hello,

Whatever you do, don't be explicit.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 3:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:

Once again, I don't think Iran is wholly wise here.

I am still wondering if they have any allies. Is there any gov't on the planet that trusts Iran?


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon



You make a tactical error by equating "allies" and "trust". We have allies, but most of them don't trust us very much, and vice-versa. Iran has allies in Russia, China, and to an extent, India. Some have signed mutual protection treaties with Iran, so any attack on Iran will trigger war with other nations. Some (like China) have stated openly that while they may not have protective alliances with Iran, they will side with Iran in any Iran-Israel or Iran-USA war.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:18 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Out of curiosity, when did "we're allies" start meaning "if you go to war we'll follow you in"? At one point did it mean "we get along reasonably well and we like trading with each other, and maybe if you go to war we'll come too, but not necessarily"?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:24 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

There are different sorts of treaties between nations. Some indicate general goodwill. Others are trade agreements. Still others are mutual defense pacts.

What I do not know is whether we are obligated to go to war if Israel initiates hostilities. I hope not.

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:34 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)



http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/02/15/425926/gas-prices-rising-d
emand-1997
/

High gas prices, low demand, and lots and lots of speculation dollars.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 20, 2012 4:38 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
Out of curiosity, when did "we're allies" start meaning "if you go to war we'll follow you in"? At one point did it mean "we get along reasonably well and we like trading with each other, and maybe if you go to war we'll come too, but not necessarily"?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




At the point that we and other nations started signing mutual protection treaties. NATO is one such system. Germany, Japan, and Italy signed a similar agreement prior to WWII breaking out, which was why Germany declared war on the US immediately after we declared war on Japan - they were required by treaty to do so.

"Allies" often means you actually do have such signed agreements with each other. Otherwise you're really just "trading partners". We're trading partners with China; we're not allies with them. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 20, 2012 7:13 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And we're in a recession still. Wonder what a 'recovery' will do the the gas prices ?



Are we?

According to the textbook definition of a recession, are we still in one? I'd heard that the recession actually ended, according to economic definitions and theories, an 2010, possibly in late 2009.

Sure, things SEEM like they're still lagging behind, but heck, things SEEMED like the economy was "on fire" back in 2007 and 2008, while it was really burning down around our necks. I seem to remember you arguing that there was no recession then, although economists said that we had been in a recession for some time when the collapse came.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, February 20, 2012 8:18 PM

OONJERAH


Quote Kwicko: "You make a tactical error by equating "allies" and "trust". We have allies, but most of them don't
trust us very much, and vice-versa. Iran has allies in Russia, China, and to an extent, India. Some have signed
mutual protection treaties with Iran, so any attack on Iran will trigger war with other nations. Some (like China)
have stated openly that while they may not have protective alliances with Iran, they will side with Iran in any
Iran-Israel or Iran-USA war.


Thank you for the clarification.

"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"
Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan all get along pretty well with Iran. None are in the Arab League.
While Israel is the most obviously militant, perhaps most Arab countries are just as hostile toward Iran.
Since they know Iran far better than I do, I assume that they have good cause.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 4:56 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


It's kind of hard to know what Iran thinks since a lot of these proclamations come from different sources, even different semi-official government news agencies, and some of them seem completely contradictory or at odds with previously released ones (the UK was not included in the first group of 6 nations to have oil withheld, it was in this latest).
Over all of that is who's running the country? And are these proclamations for their people, for the region, for international consumption, or totally *Iraq Minister of Information* uncoordinated and just noise?

Or is it the MSM mislabeling these sources and putting them under "Iran?"
The latest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/middleeast/iran-says-un-weapon
s-inspectors-wont-visit-nuclear-sites.html?_r=1&hp


"As tension grew in its nuclear dispute with the West, IRAN was reported on Tuesday to have struck an increasingly bellicose tone, warning that it would take pre-emptive action against perceived foes if it felt its national interests were threatened."

"The warning by the deputy head of its armed forces, quoted by a semi-official news agency, came as Tehran also appeared to place limits on a visit by a team of United Nations nuclear officials, saying the investigators would not go to nuclear facilities, despite earlier reports that its members had sought permission to inspect a military complex outside Tehran."

Seems a bit loose on the sourcing to call it "Iran." Nothing like a powder keg to sell papers.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 9:38 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Seems a bit loose on the sourcing to call it "Iran." Nothing like a powder keg to sell papers.


I blame Hearst for that one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

-F

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
It's kind of hard to know what Iran thinks since a lot of these proclamations come from different sources, even different semi-official government news agencies, and some of them seem completely contradictory or at odds with previously released ones (the UK was not included in the first group of 6 nations to have oil withheld, it was in this latest).
Over all of that is who's running the country? And are these proclamations for their people, for the region, for international consumption, or totally *Iraq Minister of Information* uncoordinated and just noise?

Or is it the MSM mislabeling these sources and putting them under "Iran?"
The latest:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/22/world/middleeast/iran-says-un-weapon
s-inspectors-wont-visit-nuclear-sites.html?_r=1&hp


"As tension grew in its nuclear dispute with the West, IRAN was reported on Tuesday to have struck an increasingly bellicose tone, warning that it would take pre-emptive action against perceived foes if it felt its national interests were threatened."

"The warning by the deputy head of its armed forces, quoted by a semi-official news agency, came as Tehran also appeared to place limits on a visit by a team of United Nations nuclear officials, saying the investigators would not go to nuclear facilities, despite earlier reports that its members had sought permission to inspect a military complex outside Tehran."

Seems a bit loose on the sourcing to call it "Iran." Nothing like a powder keg to sell papers.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com





The key passage, I think is here:

Quote:

"The warning by the deputy head of its armed forces, quoted by a semi-official news agency...


Basically akin to some general going a bit rogue while drinking and talking with a reporter from Rolling Stone magazine. Some mid-level flunky's words being reported by a "semi-official" agency, and being taken as the word of the entire country and its government.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:06 AM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

I don't think any of 'em really do, Oon. Really. I think they understand that Iran is doing all this nuclear posturing to stave off an attack from the U.S. A nuclear U.S. of A. will always be a much greater threat to the region than Iran. It's clear as freakin' day over there. And Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing. Government statements in Arab/Persian cultures are kinda like the trash talking we see in professional wrestling. Talk about comments not intended as factual statements!

And they are so not going to bomb Isreal. Because they know perfectly well how defenseless they would be against the rest of the world that would come in and trash their country like Aerosmith at the Four Seasons.

A nuclear Iran means one thing to the Middle East: an Iran the U.S. can't simply step on and grind into the dust. And, of course, it would disincline Isreal from doing anything rash as well.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

I don't think any of 'em really do, Oon. Really. I think they understand that Iran is doing all this nuclear posturing to stave off an attack from the U.S. A nuclear U.S. of A. will always be a much greater threat to the region than Iran. It's clear as freakin' day over there. And Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing. Government statements in Arab/Persian cultures are kinda like the trash talking we see in professional wrestling. Talk about comments not intended as factual statements!

And they are so not going to bomb Isreal. Because they know perfectly well how defenseless they would be against the rest of the world that would come in and trash their country like Aerosmith at the Four Seasons.

A nuclear Iran means one thing to the Middle East: an Iran the U.S. can't simply step on and grind into the dust. And, of course, it would disincline Isreal from doing anything rash as well.

HKCavalier



I can't believe how many Westerners think they know what Iran will do. Got to be wishful thinking, right? I get that impulse, I'd love to think we can work this out like adults, because if that doesn't happen too many innocent people die. To me it rings as just as stubborn headed as our military thinking Iraq/everyone needs US Style democracy. A non-nuke Iran is one Israel doesn't want to bomb - that's the scenario that keeps the most people out of the worst trouble.

"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?



Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:42 PM

HKCAVALIER


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?

Wull,

First of all, Pizmo, he ain't the guy in charge. President in Iran is more like a Propaganda Minister. Some people in the West think they can predict what Iran will do because they've done their research, read a little history, know people on the ground over there, etc. You keep harping on this point that we should all be just as ignorant as you say we are. Why? What makes you the authority on how ignorant the rest of us are?

And I find your thinking kinda authoritarian in its focus on the individual "leader." Individuals do not lead the modern nation state. That is a fiction. Decisions like nuking another country are never in the hands of one man. Yes, you may look at a chain of command and see so-and-so at the top and you can tell me that he has the key that will arm the warhead, bladdy-bladdy-blah, but still, in the nature of human beings, one guy is not responsible for the fate of millions. Ever. Not in reality.

And most of the time, "chain of command" is a fiction that keeps us from seeing the truth. Adolf Hitler didn't gas a single person by himself. Plenty of other folks were willing to do the heavy lifting there. The work of thousands goes into every nuclear warhead.

The fate of millions depends at least on the actions of, what, tens of thousands? PARTICULARLY when people start acting irrationally. Irrationality isn't randomness, it's usually highly patterned and predictable if you know what to look for. Y'know, an alcoholic in your face may seem like a great chaos monster, but if you look at alcoholics as a group, alcoholism as a syndrome, their behavior becomes quite mechanistic.

Some extremely mentally disturbed individuals have had control of nukes for decades now and our country is the only one to have ever used one in earnest. That is a fact. Do you think that's just luck? Random chance? I don't. I think it means something profound about human psychology, about human nature. I think it means there are limits.

Why didn't our country bomb Mecca ten years ago? Plenty of folk in and out of our government wanted that so very badly. I remember one of my best friends in the world yelling at me on the phone about it. You think the reason we didn't is because of our democratic system of government? Because we're so civilized? You think it was because George W. is more mentally stable than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Neither of these men live and work in a vacuum. And neither of them are particularly masters of even their own fates. Both are subject to the pressures of the people around them, their cultures, and of history and our human psychological nature.

I'm not without fear. I'm shocked at what our world has become in just 10 short years since 9/11/01. And sure, I could be wrong. I was wrong about the Iraq war. I thought it was all so much sabre rattling and brinksmanship. After all, the UN inspectors were nearly done and a lot of us already knew they would find nothing. And we knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I didn't think America would go to war with a country that had done nothing to us and posed no discernable threat. I was dead wrong. Nonetheless, even in retrospect, I wouldn't call my reasoning at the time "wishful thinking."

Sorry for rambling there, Pizmo. Just trying to give you a sense of why I think as I do. And maybe give you some things to ponder before you go thinking the worst of people, whether they be fellow forum members or foreign heads of state.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"


Hello,

What difference does it make whether we trust Iran with nukes? I wouldn't trust Iran with my Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection. So what? All that matters is what we're willing to do about it.

And what we're not willing to do.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:30 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:
"Trust": bad choice of word.
I should have said, "Is there any government in the Middle East that doesn't fear a nuclear Iran?"

I don't think any of 'em really do, Oon. Really. I think they understand that Iran is doing all this nuclear posturing to stave off an attack from the U.S. A nuclear U.S. of A. will always be a much greater threat to the region than Iran. It's clear as freakin' day over there. And Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing. Government statements in Arab/Persian cultures are kinda like the trash talking we see in professional wrestling. Talk about comments not intended as factual statements!

And they are so not going to bomb Isreal. Because they know perfectly well how defenseless they would be against the rest of the world that would come in and trash their country like Aerosmith at the Four Seasons.

A nuclear Iran means one thing to the Middle East: an Iran the U.S. can't simply step on and grind into the dust. And, of course, it would disincline Isreal from doing anything rash as well.

HKCavalier



I can't believe how many Westerners think they know what Iran will do. Got to be wishful thinking, right? I get that impulse, I'd love to think we can work this out like adults, because if that doesn't happen too many innocent people die. To me it rings as just as stubborn headed as our military thinking Iraq/everyone needs US Style democracy. A non-nuke Iran is one Israel doesn't want to bomb - that's the scenario that keeps the most people out of the worst trouble.




I share your concern. I also can't believe how many Westerners seem to think they know exactly how Iran will act. They seem so certain Iran will use a nuke the very second it acquires one, despite no factual basis for such beliefs.

Quote:


"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?



Again, I hear ya. I've heard some crazy-ass shit from certain leaders and certain candidates running for positions of power. I heard one crazy idiot make the claim that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." I've even heard some spectacularly revisionist (non)history from candidates here at home, some of whom want us to believe that the Civil War had nothing at all to do with slavery.

Clearly such lunatics should not only not be trusted, but should never, EVER be allowed anywhere near positions of power. I think everyone here will agree with that.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:02 PM

OONJERAH



Quote Kwicko: "Again, I hear ya. I've heard some crazy-ass shit from certain leaders and certain candidates running for
positions of power. I heard one crazy idiot make the claim that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein
recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." I've even heard some spectacularly revisionist (non)history
from candidates here at home, some of whom want us to believe that the Civil War had nothing at all to do with slavery.

"Clearly such lunatics should not only not be trusted, but should never, EVER be allowed anywhere near positions of power.
I think everyone here will agree with that."

Oonjerah: Ditto that!

But what should be and what IS ain't always that much the same.


"All I suggest is a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" ~Paul Simon

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Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And I find your thinking kinda authoritarian in its focus on the individual "leader." Individuals do not lead the modern nation state. That is a fiction. Decisions like nuking another country are never in the hands of one man. Yes, you may look at a chain of command and see so-and-so at the top and you can tell me that he has the key that will arm the warhead, bladdy-bladdy-blah, but still, in the nature of human beings, one guy is not responsible for the fate of millions. Ever. Not in reality.

And most of the time, "chain of command" is a fiction that keeps us from seeing the truth. Adolf Hitler didn't gas a single person by himself. Plenty of other folks were willing to do the heavy lifting there. The work of thousands goes into every nuclear warhead.


That - right there, is what I mean to put a check against, if not an end to, via depriving the various jerks of the world the willing triggermen tyranny NEEDS in order to occur.
And I know just where to hit em, too.

This ain't really, and honestly never was, a matter of nation versus nation, so much as it is insanity versus humanity.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 5:48 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
First of all, Pizmo, he ain't the guy in charge. President in Iran is more like a Propaganda Minister. Some people in the West think they can predict what Iran will do because they've done their research, read a little history, know people on the ground over there, etc. You keep harping on this point that we should all be just as ignorant as you say we are. Why? What makes you the authority on how ignorant the rest of us are?



I'm no authority on ignorance (heh), but I see people making statements that don't ring true to me, that are based on very questionable assumptions, and nothing you've written changes my mind on that. In fact, what you wrote only reinforces my position.

Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
And I find your thinking kinda authoritarian in its focus on the individual "leader." Individuals do not lead the modern nation state. That is a fiction. Decisions like nuking another country are never in the hands of one man. Yes, you may look at a chain of command and see so-and-so at the top and you can tell me that he has the key that will arm the warhead, bladdy-bladdy-blah, but still, in the nature of human beings, one guy is not responsible for the fate of millions. Ever. Not in reality.

And most of the time, "chain of command" is a fiction that keeps us from seeing the truth. Adolf Hitler didn't gas a single person by himself. Plenty of other folks were willing to do the heavy lifting there. The work of thousands goes into every nuclear warhead.



This is suppose to comfort me? "Don't blame Hitler, it was him and his people…" Seriously, would Nazi Germany have happened without Hitler? The cult of personality counts for millions of willing laborers - starts with one guy.
And saying A. is just a propaganda minister, fine, but that leaves a Grand Ayatollah - looking back through history and seeing what people have destroyed in the name of religion or for a single person, is not a promising idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The fate of millions depends at least on the actions of, what, tens of thousands? PARTICULARLY when people start acting irrationally. Irrationality isn't randomness, it's usually highly patterned and predictable if you know what to look for. Y'know, an alcoholic in your face may seem like a great chaos monster, but if you look at alcoholics as a group, alcoholism as a syndrome, their behavior becomes quite mechanistic.

Some extremely mentally disturbed individuals have had control of nukes for decades now and our country is the only one to have ever used one in earnest. That is a fact. Do you think that's just luck? Random chance? I don't. I think it means something profound about human psychology, about human nature. I think it means there are limits.



I agree with you on this - I think there are images of the devastation in Japan/Hiroshima/ that so horrified the world and shamed us in particular, it made using the next nuke pretty unthinkable, certainly by us, by most :( of our presidents, "I'm not going to go down in history as the 2nd president to use nukes…" I think getting past that horror might take something like the fear of already being under assault & feeling like there's no recourse + attacking a nation's pride, and then mix in a bit of religious blind obedience and you have a lethal situation. Those things exist now, right? Is that as bad without nuke potential?
Wondering: Do you think sanctions are there just to punish? Like, we don't care if there's evidence of weaponizing being attempted, we just want to hurt Iran? I don't honestly know, maybe you have information on that. It doesn't make sense to me that we along with other nations only want to poke Iran with a stick and make things worse.

Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Why didn't our country bomb Mecca ten years ago? Plenty of folk in and out of our government wanted that so very badly. I remember one of my best friends in the world yelling at me on the phone about it. You think the reason we didn't is because of our democratic system of government? Because we're so civilized? You think it was because George W. is more mentally stable than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Neither of these men live and work in a vacuum. And neither of them are particularly masters of even their own fates. Both are subject to the pressures of the people around them, their cultures, and of history and our human psychological nature.

I'm not without fear. I'm shocked at what our world has become in just 10 short years since 9/11/01. And sure, I could be wrong. I was wrong about the Iraq war. I thought it was all so much sabre rattling and brinksmanship. After all, the UN inspectors were nearly done and a lot of us already knew they would find nothing. And we knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I didn't think America would go to war with a country that had done nothing to us and posed no discernable threat. I was dead wrong. Nonetheless, even in retrospect, I wouldn't call my reasoning at the time "wishful thinking."



I started having this feeling when I read about China building 60+ nuclear power plants right about the time Fukishima happened: When it comes to nukes and nuclear power I'm something of a One Worlder. We need to collectively > peaceably < find a way to not add to the potential for nuclear catastrophes on the planet. And because they almost always effect more than the people within the nation that has the device or power plant - this idea of national sovereignty is a bit fuzzy imho. I have my dreams - in the mean time, let's start with one.

Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Sorry for rambling there, Pizmo. Just trying to give you a sense of why I think as I do. And maybe give you some things to ponder before you go thinking the worst of people, whether they be fellow forum members or foreign heads of state.



I actually think the most of you bro! We just disagree on this one - that's what RWED is for right?


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:00 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"


Hello,

What difference does it make whether we trust Iran with nukes? I wouldn't trust Iran with my Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection. So what? All that matters is what we're willing to do about it.

And what we're not willing to do.




What, are you serious?!? You have a Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection??

I agree - what are we willing to do, makes me a bit scared - and I use the word "we" very loosely because I don't feel like I'm part of that We. What if Israel decides to try and be pre-emptive? What if Iran tries to be pre-emptive on Israel?
I can't think of any good outcomes here, and it'd be worse with nukes or Republicans involved.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:07 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

I share your concern. I also can't believe how many Westerners seem to think they know exactly how Iran will act. They seem so certain Iran will use a nuke the very second it acquires one, despite no factual basis for such beliefs.



I haven't seen anyone here post that kind of absolute thinking but maybe I missed it. For me, just look at the global snot ball that this one idea has created - who on the planet is not watching this, doesn't have a dog in this fight? It brings in oil, religion, nations' rights, nuclear energy and weapons, what a magical cluster-effage. So that's what I think is the bigger why of it, the flashpoint it's creating, potential for global danger, not they are going to light it up as soon as they get one.

Quote:


"There was no Holocaust and there are no Gays in Iran..." - Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes, is someone who's behavior you think you can safely predict?



Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Again, I hear ya. I've heard some crazy-ass shit from certain leaders and certain candidates running for positions of power. I heard one crazy idiot make the claim that "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." I've even heard some spectacularly revisionist (non)history from candidates here at home, some of whom want us to believe that the Civil War had nothing at all to do with slavery.

Clearly such lunatics should not only not be trusted, but should never, EVER be allowed anywhere near positions of power. I think everyone here will agree with that.




Put me down for that!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:09 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Oonjerah:


But what should be and what IS ain't always that much the same.




The footnote on almost every page in The Really Big Book of History...

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 6:10 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

"Someone who thinks this backwards is someone you'll trust with nukes,"


Hello,

What difference does it make whether we trust Iran with nukes? I wouldn't trust Iran with my Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection. So what? All that matters is what we're willing to do about it.

And what we're not willing to do.




What, are you serious?!? You have a Hallmark Star Trek ornament collection??

I agree - what are we willing to do, makes me a bit scared - and I use the word "we" very loosely because I don't feel like I'm part of that We. What if Israel decides to try and be pre-emptive? What if Iran tries to be pre-emptive on Israel?
I can't think of any good outcomes here, and it'd be worse with nukes or Republicans involved.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com





Hello,

It started when I was in Middle school, and my Sister got a job working at the local Hallmark store at the mall. She gave me one every year for Christmas for a while.

Much of my collection is still in Florida. I've got multiple Enterprises, Miranda class, Romulan Warbirds (original and new) Klingon D-7, Bird of Prey, and little Spocks. It's a very Trekkie Christmas when they're all on display.

Anyhow, I do feel like part of the 'we.' I think if 'we' don't want to go to war, then 'we' need to make that loud and clear. Then, even if 'we' do go to war, against our wishes, it will be known that not all Americans are warmongers.

And possibly the 99% will have a voice about something beyond the sad state of the economy. Maybe we'll find that 99% of people don't like spending tax money to kill foreigners and sacrifice our youth. I could get on-board with a protest about that.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:43 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


It started when I was in Middle school, and my Sister got a job working at the local Hallmark store at the mall. She gave me one every year for Christmas for a while.

Much of my collection is still in Florida. I've got multiple Enterprises, Miranda class, Romulan Warbirds (original and new) Klingon D-7, Bird of Prey, and little Spocks. It's a very Trekkie Christmas when they're all on display.



Sounds really very cool - do you do a silver tree or more traditional? I caught about 10 minutes of Toy Hunters surfing the channels the other night - made me a little sad seeing collectors part with the stuff they've been saving for so many years.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:

Anyhow, I do feel like part of the 'we.' I think if 'we' don't want to go to war, then 'we' need to make that loud and clear. Then, even if 'we' do go to war, against our wishes, it will be known that not all Americans are warmongers.




I would have thought that was made apparent "not all Americans are warmongers" by many people in the US during Iraq, but we were hated and still are to a large extent I think around the globe, as part of that war mongering nation - I don't think people are interested if you say you aren't, the focus is the negative. I traveled a little outside the US during W's reign and I could feel the hate like waves of heat coming off people. It made me defensive - I agreed with them but I didn't think it was fair to single me out for their scorn, I thought Iraq was a damned stupid idea. O-well.

Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
And possibly the 99% will have a voice about something beyond the sad state of the economy. Maybe we'll find that 99% of people don't like spending tax money to kill foreigners and sacrifice our youth. I could get on-board with a protest about that.



Me too - I'm not sure about marching but I'd do something.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:49 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

I would have thought that was made apparent "not all Americans are warmongers" by many people in the US during Iraq, but we were hated and still are to a large extent I think around the globe, as part of that war mongering nation - I don't think people are interested if you say you aren't, the focus is the negative. I traveled a little outside the US during W's reign and I could feel the hate like waves of heat coming off people. It made me defensive - I agreed with them but I didn't think it was fair to single me out for their scorn, I thought Iraq was a damned stupid idea. O-well.



Hello,

I have friends and acquaintences overseas. When George Bush got elected to a second term, a lot of them threw up their hands in frustration. They were like, "You can say you don't support XYZ all you want, but when Americans choose this man to lead them, it leads many to wonder how you can possibly be against it." I found it remarkable how quickly we burned our goodwill after 9/11. I wish we'd had someone politically savvy at the time to take advantage of that brief surge of sympathy and good feelings.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:53 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Sounds really very cool - do you do a silver tree or more traditional?


Hello,

A plastic/processed tree from Walmart in green. About 5 feet tall. I think there's more wood in the ornaments than in the tree proper. ;-)

--Anthony



_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


I'm surprised it took 3/4 of a thread to get to Israel, because Israel is driving this mess. The US intelligence assessment is that Iran tabled its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and hasn't restarted it. The heavy-duty sanctions are all about appeasing Israel. Too bad the Israelis don't have nuclear weapons.

Oh, wait- they do. And we gave them away as gifts.

Israel has become internally like a paranoid fascist state... a theocracy just as intolerant as Afghanistan, but militarized to the teeth. The present members of the Israeli army are going to their Rabbis for advice on which orders are "illegal" (ie conflict with militant Judaism). So soldiers are now deciding that it is "illegal" to remove Jewish settlers who have illegally taken over Palestinian farms, stores and houses!

It's a nightmare. The Jewish state of Israel has completely gone off the rails. If I were Iran, I'd want nukes.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 12:54 PM

CAVETROLL


Does anybody here know what percentage of oil is purchased from Iran by European states?

Spain 14.6%
Greece 13.8%
Italy 13%
Austria 10%
Belgium 7%
Netherlands 4%
France 2.8%
Czech republic 2%
Germany 1.6%
Portugal 1.6%
United Kingdom 0.2%
All 27 EU Countries 5%

And the six countries that Iran shut off? The Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France, Greece and Portugal.

I don't think that this is as big a deal as the news is making it out to be. In fact, I'd be suspicious of market manipulation in advance of an election.

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 1:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by CaveTroll:
Does anybody here know what percentage of oil is purchased from Iran by European states?

Spain 14.6%
Greece 13.8%
Italy 13%
Austria 10%
Belgium 7%
Netherlands 4%
France 2.8%
Czech republic 2%
Germany 1.6%
Portugal 1.6%
United Kingdom 0.2%
All 27 EU Countries 5%

And the six countries that Iran shut off? The Netherlands, Spain, Italy, France, Greece and Portugal.

I don't think that this is as big a deal as the news is making it out to be. In fact, I'd be suspicious of market manipulation in advance of an election.




Which would also explain the spike in speculator money in oil & gas right now, as well as the current price spike despite near-record lows in demand and highs in supply.

Yup, we're being played, folks, and we're being played by people who've rigged the game so they make money either way. Heads they win, tails they win. Either way, you lose.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 3:44 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


Which would also explain the spike in speculator money in oil & gas right now, as well as the current price spike despite near-record lows in demand and highs in supply.

Yup, we're being played, folks, and we're being played by people who've rigged the game so they make money either way. Heads they win, tails they win. Either way, you lose.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill






Hello,

My father used to say, when he had a penchant for saying instructional things:

"Every time anything happens in the middle east, gas prices go up. And they go up right away, even though the gas in the station is the same gas that was there moments before."

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 4:16 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:


Which would also explain the spike in speculator money in oil & gas right now, as well as the current price spike despite near-record lows in demand and highs in supply.

Yup, we're being played, folks, and we're being played by people who've rigged the game so they make money either way. Heads they win, tails they win. Either way, you lose.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill






Hello,

My father used to say, when he had a penchant for saying instructional things:

"Every time anything happens in the middle east, gas prices go up. And they go up right away, even though the gas in the station is the same gas that was there moments before."

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner






Your father is a wise man, Anthony. And if you haven't told him so lately, do so now.

But yes - anything happens in the mid-east, gas goes up. Anything happens in the mid-WEST, gas goes up. Gulf of Mexico? Up. Mexico? Sí. Alaska? You betcha. California? Fer sher, dood.

The rise is indeed immediate, but the price takes months to fall once said crisis is averted or solved. And even after it falls, the price tends to be *just a little higher* than it was before.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, February 22, 2012 11:03 PM

FREMDFIRMA


And lets not forget the absolutely predictable flood of really suspicious springtime petroleum "accidents" which cause little or even zero actual loss/damage, but justify price increases when that price would normally slump.

Oh, and regarding trees - I had a 4ft silver aluminum xmas tree, this was not the family tree, this was MINE, personally, bought at a yard sale for next to nothing, and with the spinny wheel and the lights it was one of the damn prettiest things ever, despite being an epic disaster waiting to happen according to those with nothing better to do than try to protect us from ourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_Christmas_tree
(said disaster never, of course happened)
I used to set that up and run an N-scale train set underneath it, with bubble lights, plastic icicles and snowflakes, all out awesome, the very few times in my life xmas wasn't a life-wrecking disaster that is...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:09 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Seems like, whichever official or semi-official source threatened to keep IAEA inspectors from visiting Iran's nuclear sites, the threat has come true.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17122738

Looks like someone is rolling out North Korea's patented "We have nothing to hide, but we're not going to let you see it anyway" routine. Hope the new Kim is getting royalties.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:26 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:


Hello,

I have friends and acquaintences overseas. When George Bush got elected to a second term, a lot of them threw up their hands in frustration. They were like, "You can say you don't support XYZ all you want, but when Americans choose this man to lead them, it leads many to wonder how you can possibly be against it." I found it remarkable how quickly we burned our goodwill after 9/11. I wish we'd had someone politically savvy at the time to take advantage of that brief surge of sympathy and good feelings.




That's it in a nutshell.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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