Perspective - Some sarcasm..some real numbers by Conchobar71

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Perspective - Some sarcasm..some real numbers

POSTED BY: CONCHOBAR71
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2011 06:04
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Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:35 AM

I wrote this in 2008 in a discussion with some friends. It's strange how the argument still applies 3 years later.

It has been one of those days where I have heard several people claim that they don't want higher taxes. "let me keep my money!!"

/sarcasm I'm all for it. The way I see it, I earned it and I don't think the government should take any of it to use for social causes. /sarcasm off

I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, if you haven't guessed by now. Growing up I had the benefit of eating and shelter because of the NYS Welfare program. Do I think it's perfect, No. Would I be where I am today without it? Maybe, maybe not. the children aren't on welfare because they want to be (believe me, I didn't want to be..nothing was more embarrassing than standing in a lunch line with my red lunch ticket or wearing clothes that were purchased from thrift shops and the local Salvation Army.)
Their parents are the reason they are on welfare. Some can work, some cannot. Of course that comes with the caveat that work is even available. My Mother and stepfather recieved $480/month cash and $300 in food stamps, plus Medicaid. $780/month plus health benefits for a family of 5 is ROCKING and living high on the hog..let me tell you. Regardless, I still feel appreciative for that aid.

So let's look at some quick numbers:

A family of 3 (single father with 2 kids under the age of 16)

The father makes $10/hr working at Bush Industries making furniture, 40 hrs per week (2080 hrs/year). He goes to college at night (full-time with online classes) to improve his situation, taking out student loans and using financial aid to help cover the costs.

His Gross income is $20,800/year if he never calls in sick or has to go take care of one of his children when they are sick.

Right now his takehome is $320/week , he pays $120/week for childcare because he can't get out of work in time to get his 2 kids.

That leaves him with $200/week
The gas required to run to and from work as well as errands and to get his kids from daycare is around $60/week

That leaves him $140/week for groceries/rent/utilities and savings.

Rent for a 2 bedroom apartment in the ghetto costs $450/month, with utilities (being overly generous the landlord acquiesces to that demand) (=$103.85/week over 52 weeks)

This leaves the man with $36.15 to feed himself , buy laundry detergent (or dishsoap..multi-purpose for dish washing as well), toiletries i.e. shaving supplies and bath soap (he'll use that to wash his hair), and clothing for his children.

It's a noble endeavor but hey, he's screwed himself over by not living in a town where the jobs pay $20/hr (and the rent is $1000/month without utilities) and he had 2 kids.

I say screw him and his financial aid that lazy prick! How dare he expect any help from me?

To fix the tax system, I think we should:

Close the Department of Social Services - 1000's of people will be out of jobs, but hey we're saving Millions of dollars here!

Disband the Welfare system altogether. Get a job you lazy pricks!!

Disband Medicare and Medicaid - Man I'm sorry those meds are expensive GET A JOB!! If you need hospitalization tough dookie.. that's why God created Funeral homes and ditches.

Disband Social Security (after all it's broke anyways)- Sorry Grandpa..get a job you lazy prick!

Eliminate Unemployment benefits and Disability - they can work injured or at McDonalds GET A JOB!!

While we're at it, close all the halfway houses and Women's Shelters - Meh..they were all gonna die anyway..let them do it and decrease the surplus population (even better less little kids roaming around dirty)

Eliminate the Financial Aid programs (it has the word Aid in it..it has to go) - Get 3 Jobs to pay for school. Who cares if you fail your course load because you have 12 hrs/week for study and sleep..nm eating

Close all the Facilities that help care for the Elderly and Developmentally disabled. (Decrease the surplus population). Make those lazy pricks get jobs!!!!

Since I'm on a roll:

Stop all funding for schools in general, let the parents pay for their own children's educations. if they can't afford it..oh well. Who needs to read anyways?

Stop all Aid for housing (it has the word Aid in it, it MUST go)

Man this is tough work saving all this tax money..I think I'm sweating. the cool thing is I just prevented our taxes from going up and those wealthy folks who can stockpile their cash in swiss bank accounts don't have to worry about paying as much. It might've affected their weekend in Vegas where they drop $2 Million on BlackJack or they may have been required to stop heating their home in the Hamptons the 47 weeks of the year they aren't there.

You know what would be even better is if we used the tax dollars collected by the remaining employed people to build our military some more. Put all the able bodied unemployed people in the military so that they can protect the wealthy's overseas interests, afterall..that's where all their real business is located and we wouldn't want the wealthy to feel like they are being punished for their success.Look at all the jobs we just created, and the wealthy can overcharge the government for hammers and toilet paper used by the military, so they essentially get all their money back in the end WOOHOO!! Let their tax dollars be spent on their needs and purposes only. After all, that's what matters most.

I think that should be acceptable. Germany did that and it worked out real well for them

Noone will admit this is what they really want, but those who complain about the wealthy paying more are doing exactly that. The question is, What would be the repercussion for not taking some social responsibility for those around us? What really needs to happen is the government needs to decrease wasteful spending. People are not a wasted expense.

Recently I have been discussing the tax situation with a friend of mine, and we disagree on a few points. It has been mentioned that the wealthiest 1% pay 40% of the income tax in the U.S. with the wealthiest 5% paying 50%,. It's not entirely accurate but close enough for giggles. In actuality they pay about 27%. It's still no small price all things considered. After doing some checking and what not, he is correct in that statistical truth. However my contention is that they should pay that much considering how much more money they make than the average Joe.

I'm going to repost this here, since I get more traffic. Please note, I value this person's opinion immensely. I just disagree on his point that the economy would be better off if we taxed the wealthy less. the way I see it, is if they want to pay less taxes than they should pay their employees more or give jobs to more people to decrease their AGI. Ultimately, I think it becomes a wash all things considered. right now their wealth is taking up dust regardless. Most human beings could'nt spend the amount of money these people average.

Here are my findings:

The details are rather interesting:

Total AGI of individual tax payers was $8,030,842,945,000 in 2006

Total income tax paid by individual tax payers was $1,023,920,139,000

354, 093 Tax Payers out of 138,394,754 tax payers (who filed returns) AGI was:

$1,211,267,652,000, with “taxable income” being $1,076,467,881,000

paying $273,059,961,000 in taxes, meaning they paid an average of 26% taxes on their income all told.

Average income $41,142,306

*Notice that the top 1% AGI is slightly higher than all the taxes paid.

The remainder of the taxpayer AGI (taxable) was $4,383,999,246,000

The remainder paid $750,856,439,000, meaning they paid an average of 20% taxes on their income all told

Average income $31,759

With that being said 37,807,391 people who filed returns were under the poverty level dictated by the 2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines or 27.3%

2008 HHS Poverty Guidelines
Persons
in Family or Household 48 Contiguous
States and D.C.
1 $10,400
2 14,000
3 17,600
4 21,200
5 24,800
6 28,400
7 32,000
8 35,600
For each additional
person, add 3,600

SOURCE: Federal Register, Vol. 73, No. 15, January 23, 2008, pp. 3971–3972

After looking at the huge disparity in income levels, I have a very difficult time sympathizing with the 1% of the wealthy, it is my opinion that they should pay that extra 6% considering they only average 1296x the average income of the 99% who filed taxes.

*Disclaimer - I am not an accountant, just extrapolating data from here:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/06in11si.xls

Now the suggestion that the government would cease it's programs altogether is a ludicrous one at best, it is safe to assume we will all continue to pay taxes. Based on earlier suggestions the Wealthy are being penalized for their success. So I did some math using data from 2006. Here are my findings if every tax payer was forced to pay 20% to meet the government tax pull at that time.

If we did a flat tax of 20% so the Wealthy didn’t feel punished here would be the stats:

$1 under $5000 - AVG Income now = $1,120 , at 20% tax = $1000.28
Taxes paid =$191, 980,600 , Net change in taxes paid= 117.4%

$5000 under $10000 - AVG Income now = $1,958 , at 20% tax = $1,760.17
Taxes paid =$1,318,765,000, Net change in taxes paid = 102%

$10,000 under $15,000 - AVG Income now = $4,292 , at 20% tax = $3,844.84
Taxes paid =$4,958,362,200, Net change in taxes paid = 108.3%

$15,000 under $20,000 - AVG Income now = $8,057 , at 20% tax = $7,277.78
Taxes paid =$9,213,595,922.00 , Net change in taxes paid = 94.2%

$20,000 under $25,000 - AVG Income now = $11,519 , at 20% tax = $10,497.03
Taxes paid =$13,476,585,509, Net change in taxes paid = 80.2%

$25,000 under $30,000 - AVG Income now = $15,780 , at 20% tax = $14,424.29
Taxes paid =$18,233,310,400 , Net change in taxes paid = 75.4%

$30,000 under $40,000 - AVG Income now = $21,312 , at 20% tax = $19,495.75
Taxes paid =$47,552,734,200 , Net change in taxes paid = 73.9%

$40,000 under $50,000 - AVG Income now = $28,644 , at 20% tax = $26,400.14
Taxes paid =$53,447,628,400 , Net change in taxes paid = 63.9%

$50,000 under $75,000 - AVG Income now = $40,765 , at 20% tax = $37,911.62
Taxes paid =$145,267,348,800 , Net change in taxes paid = 53.8%

$75,000 under $100,000 - AVG Income now = $59,821 , at 20% tax = $56,054.51
Taxes paid =$131,380,551,600 , Net change in taxes paid = 46%

$100,000 under $200,000 - AVG Income now = $97,999 , at 20% tax = $95,787.51
Taxes paid =$236,009,601,000 , Net change in taxes paid = 13%

$200,000 under $500,000 - AVG Income now = $234,677 , at 20% tax = $244,572.99
Taxes paid =$146,215,476,400 , Net change in taxes paid = -17.4%

$500,000 under $1,000,000 - AVG Income now = $591,124 , at 20% tax = $633,114.39
Taxes paid =$69,521,648,200 , Net change in taxes paid = -26.2%

$1,000,000 under $1,500,000 - AVG Income now = $1,074,908 ,
at 20% tax = $1,153,898.14 Taxes paid =$32,268,728,400 ,
Net change in taxes paid = -26.7%

$1,500,000 under $2,000,000 - AVG Income now = $1,534,681 ,
at 20% tax = $1,646,160.99 Taxes paid =$19,601,869,600 ,
Net change in taxes paid = -26.7%

$2,000,000 under $5,000,000 - AVG Income now = $2,687,447 ,
at 20% tax = $2,877,154.72 Taxes paid =$52,956,146,000 ,
Net change in taxes paid = -26.2%

$5,000,000 under $10,000,000 - AVG Income now = $6,164,086 ,
at 20% tax = $6,518,354.95 Taxes paid =$30,726,736,800 ,
Net change in taxes paid = -22.2%

$10,000,000 or more - AVG Income now = $25,029,850 ,
at 20% tax = $25,737,581.82 Taxes paid =$79,740,095,400 ,
Net change in taxes paid = -12.7%

Net change in all:

Total # of taxable returns =92,740,927

Before wealthiest .03% paid : $273,059,961,000 or 26% of total taxes

After wealthiest .03% paid: $215,293,576,200 or 19.7%

Net savings: $57,766,384,800 / 353,341 (taxpayers) = $163,486.22/ person

Before remainder 99.97% paid : $750,856,439,000 or 74% of total taxes

After remainder 99.97% paid: $876,799,849,200 or 80.2%

Net change : - $125,943,410,200 / 92,387,586 (taxpayers) = -$1,363.21

Now we just removed $125,943,410,200 from the lower 99.97% to put back into play MAYBE $57,766,384,800

With a net loss from the real consumers and majority (People under $1,000,000/year)
Of $68,177,025,400

Meaning that even if the people over $1,000,000 per year reinvested ALL of it, we would still be at a net loss of $10,410,640,600 and the top .03% would get wealthier and everyone else would get poorer. Those under $1,000,000/year would have less to spend. I think that’s a great idea.

Now to be fair I'll evaluate the top 4% (that is anyone over $200,000 /year) who would benefit from a flat tax.

They paid in 2006 $544,314,997,000, with combined total income of $2,155,133,504,000
Averaging 25% in taxes They paid 50% of all taxes. Total number of people = 4,056,630

the remainder paid $479,601,403,000 of all taxes Total # of people 88,684,297
combined total income - $3,305,313,623,000

At 20% the following would occur

Top 4% would pay - $431, 030,700,800 or 39.5% (average income = $531,266.96)

Remainder 96%would pay - $661,062,724,600 or 60.5% (average income = $37,270.56)

As you will see, those that are above $200,000 per year will be able to keep more of their wealth and those beneath that number will move down the chain and rely even more on the top 4%

This would essentially take $181,461,321,600 from 96% of the country and return $113,289,296,200 to it. With a net loss of $68,172,025,400 removed from the economy that could have been used by the remaining 96% who typically don't save.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:01 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Wow. Complex; I tried to read it all but there are too many numbers for me to accumulate any understanding.

I kinda got the general gist, and it's pretty scary, speaking as one of those not in the top (or even near the top, or even the middle!) bracket, and thinking in terms of the welfare of the country as a whole.

I'm sorry you were one of our "safety netters"; so am I, being on disability. We wouldn't survive if it weren't for my husband still commuting and working at 73. I know precisely what you mean about living high on the hog; I haven't bought clothing for ages and then mostly from St. Vincent de Paul...I had to shell out some for underwear at Penny's a while ago because thrift shops don't sell underwear. All that despite working most of my life and paying taxes into Social Security (which my husband and I will have to live on when he finally can't work any more...how we will, I don't know!). I haven't gone to a movie in years, not since I became disabled; we wait for stuff to come around on cable, which is one of our biggest expenses. Obviously we don't deserve that, and the fact that we have it again proves the "poor" have too many "amenties".

Thank you for that; unfortunately it won't mean diddly squat to the righties among us, and you DO realize that, like me, you have now opened yourself up as one of the 'bums' living off the government 'teat' and will be reminded of that many times henceforth, and told to "get a job!" Just so's you know.

The rest of us, however, appreciate your efforts and understand what you're saying.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 8:46 AM

CONCHOBAR71

Nike,

It was an interesting bit of work. Ultimately it shows that 27% of the country have/make almost no money to tax (being under the poverty level). The Top 4% ($200,000+) make over 50% of all taxable income. If we reduce or "share" the taxation based on a "fair" flat tax rate, ultimately almost all of the tax burden will fall on the middle/lower class who struggle to make ends meet now, leading to a greater divide between classes. This demonstrates to me that class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy. The easiest fix would be to make cuts to Medicare and Social Security for those who don't "need" it (Gambling, second homes, 3rd and 4th cars..do not quantify need) allowing those who do need it, to be properly cared for. We are , afterall, supposed to be the most civilized country on the planet.

Tax breaks on large businesses, wealthy citizens and off shore businesses should be removed. I think that if a business outsources jobs and manufacturing overseas, they should be penalized, not rewarded. Any incentives to move should be equallized by taxation requirements in the U.S.

I am not a leftie or a righty. I hate political parties with a passion. I fell under the spell of GWB for a short period after 9/11 and rue it even today, but Obama certainly is no savior. Any party that caters to one demographic or the other is an infirmity on the nation as a whole. I don't believe in Unions that pay-off those they are bargaining with (I'm not a supporter of politicans who take money from Public Unions, nor am I a supporter of politicians that take money from Big Business). That being said, we do live in a capitalistic society where the weak are eaten by the strong. So I am under no illusions that things will get any better. Ultimately, I envision big dogs being replaced by different big dogs who are also intent on eating the weak. In the end all I can hope is that the whole world eventually learns that each person is alive 24 hrs a day and the worth of their time during that 24 hr period is equal. Until we reach that point..we'll keep having these discussions.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:25 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Damn, that was the discussion equivalent of a dynamic entry!
I'm impressed, and that takes work.
Welcome to the moshpit that is RWED Concho.

S'funny that I've written at least two of those breakdowns to show just HOW poor someone is due to the amount of income eaten by unavoidable life expenses, taxes, and just how *insufficient* the "help" we give through our so-called safety nets really is, so I completely understand ya.

Of course, getting that through the head of your typical randroid is about as possible as drilling through a neutron star, having an equivalent density, but it's always worth discussin.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:42 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Quote:
class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy

Amen

Quote:
Any party that caters to one demographic or the other is an infirmity on the nation as a whole

Excellent! If only we had a party that DIDN'T!

Oh, and

Quote:
We are , afterall, supposed to be the most civilized country on the planet.

That was, of course, a joke, wasn't it? [/snark]

Quote:
In the end all I can hope is that the whole world eventually learns that each person is alive 24 hrs a day and the worth of their time during that 24 hr period is equal.

You're allowed to dream, dear, just don't hold your breath!

I fully agree about SSI and Medicare, and am in favor of caps on both. If what I've read is right, there's a cap on CONTRIBUTING to SSI, isn't there? Yet no cap on how much they get in return? Smoke comes out of my ears at that... it's just plain insane to stop taxing people after a certain point yet let them receive without a cap! It's a great illustration of what you wrote: Class warfare is a true living breathing philosophy (and it's more than a philosophy!).

Oh, hell, you said so many things I agree with, I'll leave it at "what you said". It's a damned shame that those who NEED to hear you won't hear a word...sigh

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, August 11, 2011 4:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

By the way, Concho, you've pretty much summed up the entire Tea Party platform with that initial post. I know you did it tongue-in-cheek, but that's actually the kind of thing they run on. Eliminate EVERY safety net and regulation, and let might make right in every instance.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Friday, August 12, 2011 1:59 AM

CONCHOBAR71

The Tea Party isn't ENTIRELY wrong. Sometimes it takes some extreme viewpoints to make changes. Personally, I think the Tea Party got hijacked but that's just me LOL. I like to call them the "I'M MAD AS HELL" party and there are some days when I agree with them in part, especially when I see the smug looks on Pelosi and Reid's faces, and the Orange Glow of too much sun on Beohner's face and realize they really don't care about the country as a whole. They are more concerned with maintaining their power base.

The problem with the U.S. is that we have one side that pretends to be TOO PC ( they have no problem attacking in a highschool manner anyone of an opposing opinion while preaching love and concern for all) and the other that open's their mouths too wide and blab what ever feels like coming out. Unfortunately we have 2 parties in this country that can't seem to take some of both (because no side is entirely wrong) and come to a logical rational working relationship that benefits the country as a whole. Those decisions may effect the extremists in both parties, but the majority of the country is somewhere in the middle.

Jayne: "Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..."

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Friday, August 12, 2011 5:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Excellent, Conch, and I agree with every word. I think you'll find that nobody here thinks government programs are perfect, I believe we are all in agreement that they need revamping, we just agree about eliminating them completely. And of course they've got some points; a good argument, however you bend it or go overboard with it, is only effective if it's got that grain of truth.

You'll also find almost complete agreement that our legislators care more about maintaining their power than actually representing the people. And yes, polls have shown over and over again (as have interviews with "real" people) that Americans want compromise, something in the middle. Unfortunately, those in power are too concentrated on beating the other guy than actually WORKING for the good of the country!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Friday, August 12, 2011 6:04 AM

CONCHOBAR71

Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Excellent, Conch, and I agree with every word. I think you'll find that nobody here thinks government programs are perfect, I believe we are all in agreement that they need revamping, we just agree about eliminating them completely. And of course they've got some points; a good argument, however you bend it or go overboard with it, is only effective if it's got that grain of truth.

You'll also find almost complete agreement that our legislators care more about maintaining their power than actually representing the people. And yes, polls have shown over and over again (as have interviews with "real" people) that Americans want compromise, something in the middle. Unfortunately, those in power are too concentrated on beating the other guy than actually WORKING for the good of the country!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

Nike,

I also think that the bandwagoners (Diehard Conservatives and Liberals)are the same way. A conservative may say or do something that could make sense, but because they have an Elephant next to their name the "Progressives" will stop at nothing to villify them and any of their supporters, regardless of the reasoning or purpose. The same can be the said for conservative treatment of the Democrats. I live in NY and I can tell you that our politicians make Chicago politicans look like they are saints. We have some of the most corrupt Democratic politicians and Repubs in the nation in office i.e. Charles Rangel, Anthony Weiner, David Patterson, Elliot Spitzer, Joe Bruno, Bernie Kerik, Alan Hevesi and the list goes on.

Jayne: "Ten percent of nuthin' is...let me do the math here...nuthin' into nuthin'...carry the nuthin'..."

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