IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!!! ..."/>

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

FINALLY! Biden goes after Israel!!!

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Tuesday, November 29, 2022 15:05
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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!!!
Quote:

Biden scolds Israel over settlement plan

Vice President Joe Biden publicly scolded Israel on Wednesday over a Jewish settlement plan, saying it was undermining peace efforts after Palestinians agreed to U.S.-mediated talks.

"It is incumbent on both parties to build an atmosphere of support for negotiations and not to complicate them," Biden said in a media statement alongside Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Yesterday the decision by the Israeli government to advance planning for new housing units in East Jerusalem undermines that very trust, the trust that we need right now in order to begin ... profitable negotiations," Biden said.

In Jerusalem, an Israeli cabinet minister apologized for what he termed "real embarrassment" caused to Biden by the news on Tuesday that Israel would erect 1,600 settler homes in an area of the occupied West Bank it annexed to the holy city.

Israel's announcement of the project changed the tone of a visit in which Biden had focused on reassuring Israelis that President Barack Obama was committed to their security in the face of a possible Iranian nuclear threat.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100310/pl_nm/us_usa_israel_biden_23

and
Quote:

Biden slams Israel settlement plan

The controversial move angered Biden, who "showed up 1.5 hours late for dinner tonight at (Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's) residence," a White House press office statement said.

"I condemn the decision by the government of Israel to advance planning for new housing units in east Jerusalem," Biden said in a separate statement.

"The substance and timing of the announcement, particularly with the launching of proximity talks, is precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need right now and runs counter to the constructive discussions that I?ve had here in Israel."

The Israeli decision also infuriated the Palestinians, who consider settlements to be a major hurdle to reach peace and want occupied east Jerusalem as the capital of their promised state.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100309/pl_afp/mideastusdiplomacybiden

AND
Quote:

Biden says Palestinians deserve 'viable' state

Vice President Joe Biden said Wednesday the Palestinians deserve a "viable" independent state with contiguous territory, seeking to reassure them of U.S. support after Israel announced plans to expand a Jewish neighborhood in disputed east Jerusalem.

The Israeli move has overshadowed Biden's visit, meant to promote a new round of U.S.-led negotiations, and drawn Palestinian accusations that Israel is not serious about peace. Israel apologized for embarrassing Biden with the timing of its announcement, but made clear it has no intention of reversing its plan.

Capping a day of meetings with Palestinian leaders, Biden told his hosts that the U.S. is committed to brokering a final peace deal - something that has eluded U.S. leaders for decades.

"The United States pledges to play an active as well as a sustainable role in these talks," Biden said. He stressed the Palestinians deserve an independent state that is "viable and contiguous," meaning the territory should not be broken up by Israeli settlement enclaves.

It was a clear message to Israel that the U.S. expects a broad withdrawal from the West Bank as part of a deal.

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/mar/10/biden-says-palestinians-deserv
e-viable-state/news-breaking
/

"Scolds", "Slams", "Condemns"--YES!!! (how do you make the text HUGE??)

It's a start, it's a start, it's a start, it's a start...


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:43 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


It is nothing


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/03/20103101248178104
75.html


'Nothing fruitful'

Marwan Bishara, Al Jazeera's senior political analyst, said nothing new came out of the news conference, especially in the light of Tuesday's condemnation of Israel.

"Aside from repeating more of the same familiarities, nothing fruitful was said," Bishara said."None of this condemnation is going to go anywhere and the Palestinians know that."

Nour Odeh, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Ramallah, said aides of the Palestinian president summed up the "vague press statement as a moment of crisis".

"Palestinians are requiring action on the ground," she said. "What the Palestinians are saying is thank you for the condemnation and now what!

"[They are saying] these plans can only be reversed if the US uses its leverage to push Israel into retracting the plans - and actions."



Talk is cheap, especially the amount of talk we have seen in the past decades

Biden, Obama all they do is talk

While Bush and Cheney were sociopaths at least they were honest about it



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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:53 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


"Nukem till they glow!"
-USAF 520th Aircraft Generation Squadron motto

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:00 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
"Nukem till they glow!"
-USAF 520th Aircraft Generation Squadron motto




wtf?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/520th_Fighter-Interceptor_Squadron




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:02 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Anyone know how much money is sent by the US to the Israelies?

Im not talking individual donations.... Im talking about how much of our tax money is sent to Israel.

Ive heard all sorts of figures. So Im actually curious.

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 11:06 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Goodness, you expected otherwise from PN?? Remember who he hates more than anyone else in the world?

Wulf, to answer your question (hang onto your hat!)

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_the_US_give_Israel


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:04 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Has he changed his spots ?





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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:12 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


No, he's just not buying into the "Israel can do no wrong" idiocy our government's been following for far too long. Huzzah!

I hear no lies or changing of spots; Israel is not related to Iraq; Israel IS our biggest ally in the Middle East, the ties between Jews worldwide is just as strong as he described. I don't know what he thinks being a "zionist" means, but I don't think it means what he thinks.

...and he's a politician, for heaven's sake, what do you expect?


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:18 PM

MINCINGBEAST


if there is a subject that i am even less rational on than gun control, it is israel. hence, i forbear comment.

however, i thought know ya'll should know, that somewhere out there, a kosher beast minces, gnashes his teeth, and dreams of eating his matzah with the blood of the fallen.

lol joos rule the world lol joos pwn

that is all.

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ooops, double post...apologies.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 12:56 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I got nothing against Israel, please know. I'm just so sick to death of America backing them no matter what they do--and they've been guilty of atrocities every bit as bad as the Palestinians from time to time.

I just want fairness, and I'm all for Israel's survival and flourishing, as long as it's not at the expense of the innocent!

And omygawd, don't tell people here you're Jewish...PN will crawl through the ether and strangle you!!! ;o)


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:09 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I got nothing against Israel, please know. I'm just so sick to death of America backing them no matter what they do--and they've been guilty of atrocities every bit as bad as the Palestinians from time to time.

I just want fairness, and I'm all for Israel's survival and flourishing, as long as it's not at the expense of the innocent!

And omygawd, don't tell people here you're Jewish...PN will crawl through the ether and strangle you!!! ;o)




Many of the Jewish people I know feel the same way... Israel has been built on the suffering of others, and continues to make others suffer for whatever purpose

Hell, many Israelis are against the acts of their own government... I have posted some of their reactions before.

But the US doesn't change what they do, complain publicly and continue to support them with arms and money

to the point where most people don't really care if Israel survives at all. Perhaps the idea of a religious based state is wrong, perhaps it should be ripped apart and replaced with a more secular government that is inclusive of ALL the citizens of the area.

But that is talk, as everything the US has done up to now is talk.

If Israels actions are crimes, and the US keeps giving them money and guns... then the US shares those crimes... and that striped to the bone is why their is a war of terror going on right now.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:21 PM

MINCINGBEAST


i know, i'm jewish by ancestry, but also a militant, mouth-frothing atheist. i think the idea of a jewish state is dumb, as dumb as the idea of a christian or muslim state. frustrates me, though. there's isn't a single secular or inclusive state in the region, and suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't, is sorta weird. and yes, i get the colonialism angle, too. israel is, however, a fact on the ground. and no side has a monopoly on atrocities, sure.

however, its really hard to keep these thoughts seperate from my identity, and not feel like someone questioning israel's actions, or our unqualified support of them, isn't part of the ancient game of jew-baiting. i know that's not where ya'll are coming from, though...

with the possible exception of PN. PN, do not strangle me. I have hella many Mossad bodyguards, like all joos.

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:26 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Good for you, Mincing! Although I think that ought to be 'do not TRY to strangle me'! If you see something ugly ooozing out of your computer connection, SMACK IT! Then again, he's probably a coward anyway, just likes to mouth off and act insane...tho' I'm not sure that last part is an act...

Trust me, doll, I've got nothing against any religion, except that they're organized religions --I rarely know what denomination anyone is, or care, unless they make an issue out of it (and NOBODY prosletizes like born-againers!).


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 1:35 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
i know, i'm jewish by ancestry, but also a militant, mouth-frothing atheist. i think the idea of a jewish state is dumb, as dumb as the idea of a christian or muslim state. frustrates me, though. there's isn't a single secular or inclusive state in the region, and suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't, is sorta weird. and yes, i get the colonialism angle, too. israel is, however, a fact on the ground. and no side has a monopoly on atrocities, sure.

however, its really hard to keep these thoughts seperate from my identity, and not feel like someone questioning israel's actions, or our unqualified support of them, isn't part of the ancient game of jew-baiting. i know that's not where ya'll are coming from, though...

with the possible exception of PN. PN, do not strangle me. I have hella many Mossad bodyguards, like all joos.



Hell, I'd say you were dead right on Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, etc

and they all get military aid, intell support, etc including help them keep down the oppressed segments of their population who might want to change their government.

The really funny thing is, and I have said this before too

Iran is the moderate state when compared to the rest of the list...

Education, Healthcare, employment, etc

but the Western media seems to hammer on the negatives Iran has while ignoring the fact that all their neighbors have worse records

" suggesting that israel ought to be one where Saudi Arabia isn't "

perhaps they all should be, but Israel was brought into being by the West... so the West owns some responsibility for what they did there

perhaps this might interest you

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8550614.stm?lsm

" Despite their ties to Judaism, many of the Lemba in Zimbabwe are Christians, while some are Muslims. "

these guys seem to have it worked out


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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 2:47 PM

MINCINGBEAST


interesting stuff. i've heard of traces of similar communities as far a field as china, but this is something new.

the reason why jews in zimbabwe look like zimbabwians (sic?), and chinese jews don't, is pretty straight forward. people screw; religions don't.

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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 4:03 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
interesting stuff. i've heard of traces of similar communities as far a field as china, but this is something new.

the reason why jews in zimbabwe look like zimbabwians (sic?), and chinese jews don't, is pretty straight forward. people screw; religions don't.



I love this

" Despite their ties to Judaism, many of the Lemba in Zimbabwe are Christians, while some are Muslims.

"Christianity is my religion, and Judaism is my culture," explains Perez Hamandishe, a pastor and member of parliament from the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).

Despite their centuries-old traditions, some younger Lemba are taking a more liberal view.

"In the old days you didn't marry a non-Lemba, but these days we interact with others," says Alex Makotore, son of the late Chief Mposi from the Lemba "headquarters" in Mberengwa.

"I feel special in my heart but not in front of others such that I'm separated from them. Culture is dynamic. "


They manage to share cultures, traditions and religion ( Jewish, Christian and Muslim to boot ) without conflict ripping up the tribe.

The last line says it all


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Wednesday, March 10, 2010 7:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


That's not actually new, you know, Mohammed pulled it off in Medina back in 622AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
http://www.ijtihad.org/compact.htm

So there's plenty of precedent for it, but the state and culture of Israel is currently run by people who IMHO, are insane.

-F

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:42 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


" IT'S ABOUT FRIGGIN' TIME!!! "

nazi




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:51 AM

GINOBIFFARONI




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:32 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA


In their defense, Jong - it seemed a good idea at the time.

Historically, the Muslims had often sheltered Jews against Christian persecution, you see, and even now, even still, have a LONGER history of solidarity than they do conflict - this bloodbath is a fairly recent development, and what sparked it in the first place was the desperation of fugitives and refugees needing a place to LIVE, and when it became clear no one else wanted them due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place.

But anyhow, they needed X amount of room for Y amount of refugees, and being that no one else would take em, and they didn't HAVE that room, in desperation they resorted to taking territory the only way it's ever successfully done in the middle east - by killin every living soul on it.

That's the root of the hatred, cause Muslim religion and culture is very strong on hospitality rights, privledges and behavior, and to have someone you've offered sanctuary then betray you in such a fashion is justification for Badal (total revenge) against them and everyone from that moment who offers them so much as a sip of water, it's "just not done" to a degree I don't think I can really explain to americans.

Worse was how the damn Irgun tried to drive out the foreigners who might call them on their bloody handed terrorism - by bombing them and trying to pin the blame on Muslims, they got caught on this a couple times, not just the Lavon Affair... but again, the history of backstabbing and deceitful conduct caused most of the folk who supported em at the time to pull out and let them swing, save for the dumbass Americans, who supported them at the time, and even to some degree now, more out of religious intolerance and racism than any justifiable reason.

But thing is, no one wants to look at the history prior to WWII and is often discouraged from doing so by a pathetic sympathy ploy which is such an overblown and tattered rag that it's now all but outright illegal to even QUESTION it ?
(Zundels a fucknut, but he's got a right to ask stupid questions and say stupid things!)

Even in the light of them more or less committing the same abuses against Palestine ?

Eff that - what most folk don't realize is that the particular religion and culture has well over a thousand year history of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, and that is how and why they wound up shoved on the only folks who would tolerate them DESPITE the outpouring of sympathy over concentration camps and mass graves, because they were still seen en-masse by everyone else to be about as trustworthy as Lu Bu - which is rather borne out by the situation at hand...

Although that's less Judaism in particular than the Zionist faction thereof, but so long as that faction is tolerated in the same way Christians tolerate their own fucking lunatics just cause they claim to be Christian, that ain't gonna be changing any time soon, especially when the tolerant folk who COULD pull the rug out from under then don't dare, since due to the Zionistas behavior, the rest of the middle east is so enraged that were they to do that, their whole nation would be obliterated in retaliation before they could even TRY to negotiate.

Now if we were to cut out unthinking and reflexive political, military and financial support though, those Zionista assholes would be forced to do something other than talk shit, backstab everyone in sight and then come crying to us when folk get pissed off about it - and once they REALLY start getting their ass kicked, prolly go whining and begging to the UN, who (having SOME sense) wouldn't give em the time of day, and they'd be stuck with two options, make peace, or get pacified.

At which point the more reasonable folk are likely to hack them Zionistas down themselves in pure self defense when their insanity becomes both undeniable and a liability that's about to get em all killed.

The downside and primary risk to that is the strong possibility that those dickheads would start launching nukes, cause like most Authoritarian Sociopaths, they'd rather see the world burned to a cinder than in any hands but theirs.

So it's a tough call no matter how you slice it, and even if we do pull it off, there's two more problems AFTER that...

One: The whole reputation of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, which will hinder them politically and economically for a hundred years and more.

Two: Keeping the Palestinians from becoming, due to national/cultural fear and paranoia, just like the damned Zionistas did after their oppression by the Nazis.

Even all that could, maybe, be handled, were it not for how they ACT in regards to the constant expansion of their borders at everyone elses expense, seriously, they're like that nasty kid from grade school who'd promise to stop hitting people, and then the VERY INSTANT the teacher turns away, hits someone else, all the while howling that it was someone else, they were hit first, etc etc - with the USA in the role of the teacher, and playin favorites.

It's juvenille bullshit on a national scale, which is just insane all the way around.

My free advice, worth about what you paid for it ?
Every time they put up a damn settlement outside their own borders, we hit it with a fucking tomahawk missle, EVERY TIME.

Not real pleasant, but it's really long past time to draw a line in the sand, and we better get to doin it before someone else nukes Tel Aviv in sheer self defense from their national insanity.

-Frem
PS. - More passport fuckery from same, and it just goes on and on.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g2SlYcj-mK7k8JyCA7n
wl7LmWYwA

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:08 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Thanks for all that information. I never really cared too much about Israel and the Middle East conflicts. I'd like to continue that fine record of apathy on the issue, but it's gettin' harder to do that when it seems everything in the world is related to it somehow.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:17 AM

MINCINGBEAST


Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."

with all due respect, WTF are you talking about? this is the awful liminal space, where legitimate discussion about israel crosses over into blood libel and anti-semitism. one could infer from your statement that, i dunno, jews have been persecuted over the centuries because they deserve it.

if you are right, and "somebody had to say it", I would expect this from PN.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:32 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


That's an old one, Mincing, don't let your emotions run wild. I'm pretty sure Frem didn't mean anything by it...many cultures are guilty of just the things he's talking about, there's no monopoly on it from the Jews. I'm not quite sure why he has such a hard-on for them, but it's not the first time we've seen him head-up about something.

However, I do think your view is skewed pretty dramatically, Frem. I realize you're talking mostly about the Zionists, who are about on equal footing with the IRA in my opinion, but to lump everyone together like that...and how many cultures do you think have done exactly the same things throughout history?? Backstabbing, etc., is POLITICS--everyone does it and I don't think the jewes have the monopoly you seem to indicate.

I'm not sure what you mean about America backing them "more out of religious intolerance and racism than any justifiable reason", given the intolerance Jews faced in this country for so long...

Mind you, I'm not pro-Irael myself, mostly because of the blind eye America has turned to the situation and how we've kept pouring money and backing in. But "nuke 'em"??? That's no solution to anything; I'd say your statements on that come very close to mirroring Wulf's "guns solve everything" attitude, and I don't think it's fair.

Shall we talk the Christian Crusades? If you want to talk about doing some bad shit, we can find it right there, not to mention what we did to the Native Americans. No country or peoples are any better in their way.

And no, I didn't get indoctrinated into the "Israel is always right" mentality, I was pretty unaware of all the history until after I read/saw Exodus, then went on to read QBIV and especially The Source. Our Israel backing has a LOT to do with the money Jews contribute to campaigns, etc., just like many other stances.


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:39 AM

MINCINGBEAST


emotions? i don't have any.

this is not the first time I've heard such stuff, believe it or not, and certainly not the last. far be it from me to defend a theist state.

i'm not surprised that we can't talk about israel without getting into the broader historical narrative of the perfidy of the jews.

its disappointing, though, coming from a free-thinking anarchist type, as opposed to the batshit crazy PN type...

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:07 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
emotions? i don't have any.

this is not the first time I've heard such stuff, believe it or not, and certainly not the last. far be it from me to defend a theist state.

i'm not surprised that we can't talk about israel without getting into the broader historical narrative of the perfidy of the jews.

its disappointing, though, coming from a free-thinking anarchist type, as opposed to the batshit crazy PN type...




I'm with both of you on this one, looking at the guys in Zimbabwe or Frems previous example of Messina people with all three religions have gotten along in the past and are capable of it.

The current problem is that one side ( Israel ) has total control over the other and are not at all benevolent. No peace is possible under those conditions...

As for groups of people acting like assholes to the point where people cheer their decline... lets picture the United States if it continues its course in another fifty years if it is still around...

already Americans pretend to be from somewhere else when traveling abroad and in many places they are not welcome to travel at all... due to individuals paying the cost for the actions of the group.

But that is an entirely different conversation


Biden, and the US are blowing smoke right now...

but the positive move I think has come from the EU

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/03/201031115544623320.ht
ml


" The European Parliament has backed the findings of a UN-backed report into last year's Gaza war, which heavily criticised Israel and accused both Tel Aviv and Hamas of war crimes. "


Israel went into a near panic recently when several European countrys began to require Imported products be labeled Product of Israel, and Product of Occupied West Bank ( or words to that effect ) taking foreign policy out of the hands of the politicians and allowing people to decide whether or not to buy goods from Israel... and without violating trade agreements, etc. In exports other than weapons, the Israeli economy depends on the European market, as their neighbors don't buy their exports... some of these moves could have an effect to force Israel to the table... but only if the US quits handing over cash.





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Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:13 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Another editorial


http://blogs.aljazeera.net/imperium/2010/03/11/us-middle-east-policy-r
etreat



US in Middle East policy retreat



The US vice president's visit to Israel has to a large degree clarified the Middle East imperatives of the Barack Obama administration in its second year.

Joe Biden's cornerstone speech at Tel Aviv University is a major downgrade and retreat from the bold commitments made by President Obama in Turkey and Egypt.

The two-part speech will no doubt be read selectively. Israeli leadership will underline the appeasement, commitment and support in the first two-thirds of the speech, whilst the Palestinian leadership will emphasise the overtures and support for independence made in the last third.

The first part underlines the Obama administration's and Biden's own adulation and commitment towards Israel. It checks all the boxes.

Israel is a vibrant democracy, check. With moral standing, check. Acts in self-defence, check. Mutual values, check. No better friend, check. US commitment to Israel's security unwavering, check. Their views on security identical, check.

He also underlined how the views of US and Israel on Iran are identical. Iranian leadership a major problem, check. Iran has become more dangerous, check. Iran will not be allowed to go nuclear, check. Its allies Hezbollah and Hamas are threat to Israel, check.

Palestine in return for Iran

Biden substituted Washington's extended open hand towards Tehran with a firm fist, while placing the 'peace process' squarely at the service of US strategy towards Iran.

And he made clear, in no vague terms that the Obama administration needs to keep the diplomatic process alive in order to mount the solid front against Iran which Israel wants so badly.

The Obama administration must give the sense of momentum that makes it possible for "moderate" Arab regimes, such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt, to join in future sanctions or blockade on Tehran.

That's why, as a close Zionist friend and ally, Biden urged Israel to cease making announcements of settlement construction that might derail the negotiations, and support the establishment of Palestinian state.

But the way in which the Vice President packaged the question of Palestine doesn't bode well for a just solution. He made no mention of the illegality of the Israeli settlements, let alone any mention of Israeli occupation of Palestinian and Arab land.

A Palestinian state, according to Biden, is indispensable first and foremost for Israel as a democracy and a Jewish homeland.

Bid for safety

As the Obama administration took stock of its dwindling popularity on its first year and analyzed aspects of its foreign policy failures, it concluded that it's safer for the time being to go back to traditional appeasement of Israel and continue putting pressure on Tehran.

Clearly, the Obama administration feels that it has burnt its fingers, at least publicly, by giving the impression of seeking rapprochement with Iran and distancing itself from Israel.

Although this might have been the right strategy or the necessary bold shift to reinvent the Middle East region, the Obama administration hasn't been ready to pay the political price in terms of the Israeli lobby's backlash domestically or the geopolitical costs in terms of accommodation with Iran.

It's in that sense that the speech at Tel Aviv University is the culmination of half a year of rethinking of US Middle East strategy and actual retreat from the ambitious plans at the outset.

Facing several hot and cold fronts at home and in the Greater Middle East region, the Obama administration hopes to improve the atmosphere with Israel, put the heat on Tehran, and enlist the support of so-called moderate Arabs.

To that end, the Obama administration seems to have abandoned comprehensive efforts towards far reaching global solutions to the region's conflicts, and instead is seeking to maintain the trappings of peaceful negotiations on the Israel-Palestine front in order to raise the heat of sanctions on Iran.

Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:59 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yeah, the bastard backtracked and kinda ate his words, damn him:
Quote:

During the opening part of his speech, the vice president spoke warmly of his own personal attachment to Israel and pointedly repeated reassurances that the Obama administration is committed to Israel's security and is paying a price through its active involvement in the region.

"I am here to remind you, and I hope you will never forget, that America stands with you shoulder to shoulder," he said.

Tho' he did reiterate his condemnation in the same speech, at least:
Quote:

Biden repeated an earlier condemnation of the move in his speech today.

"That decision in my view undermined the trust required for productive negotiations, so I, and at the request of the President Obama, condemned it immediately and unequivocally," he said.

The comment incited applause and loud cheers from his audience of mostly Israeli students.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/joe-biden-reassures-israel-us-comm
itment-security/story?id=10070701


Maybe the younger generation is smartening up? Or not...sigh...

"With moral standing"...yeah, riiight!


"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:54 AM

MINCINGBEAST


and the alternative is....what?

as i mentioned earlier, israel is far from the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that the united states shores up. its not even the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that is currently slaughtering and oppressing its own citizens. not even the only state that is a product of ham-fisted colonialism.

it is however, the only one where the dreaded JOOS are the ones being the assholes. hence, its the only one that is plugged into the longstanding narrative of JOO EVIL. and i firmly believe that the term "zionist", is a dodge, a way for someone to say "kike" without uttering the syllables.

screw israel--i won't defend it, and i won't deny that it is premised on bullshit theism and a sense of historical injury. but lets be honest: a lot of the hostility to israel is rooted as much in the "kosher" character of the state as it is in any sense of injustice. and many folks can not resist discussing the policies of the state, and suddenly transforming it into a discussion of an entire group of people...


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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:14 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
and the alternative is....what?

as i mentioned earlier, israel is far from the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that the united states shores up. its not even the only regressive, backwards theocracy in the region that is currently slaughtering and oppressing its own citizens. not even the only state that is a product of ham-fisted colonialism.

it is however, the only one where the dreaded JOOS are the ones being the assholes. hence, its the only one that is plugged into the longstanding narrative of JOO EVIL. and i firmly believe that the term "zionist", is a dodge, a way for someone to say "kike" without uttering the syllables.

screw israel--it is premised on bullshit theism and a sense of historical injury. but lets be honest: a lot of the hostility to israel is rooted as much in the "kosher" character of the state as it is in any sense of injustice.





My own hostility towards Israel is based on their actions, other countrys I feel the same way about as well... but none get the level of backing Israel receives... and that hypocrisy bother me even more...

The UN has had several resolutions against Israel, tried for others but were blocked by the US... solely because it was Israel ( in similar situations the US voted the opposite way )

This makes the concepts of the UN, international law, conflict resolution..... entirely worthless

I put more blame on the US for this than Israel, but they are both in this.

The only problem I have with the Jewish part of this mess, is the way it is used as a justification for the actions of both Israel and the US... bullshit


If say the Netherlands acted the same way towards its neighbors... they would have been rolled over long ago... why should it be any different?


Israel is the lynchpin of US foreign policy is the region...

Without that distraction.... all the other problems become easier to deal with.

I'd be happy if the US didn't prop anyone up, and folk could find their own way... Funny how some people ( many on this site ) hate government interference in their lives, but support their government interfering in the lives of folk in other countrys...

happy to discuss other countrys and situations with you Mince, we would probably even find room to agree... but Israel needs to be where the changes start.



Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:17 PM

MINCINGBEAST


dont disagree with you mr. gino. israel is broken, and no damned good for the US. lets just not blame it all on jews, or even better, a world wide jewish conspiracy.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:26 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
dont disagree with you mr. gino. israel is broken, and no damned good for the US. lets just not blame it all on jews, or even better, a world wide jewish conspiracy.



How about a world wide Israeli conspiracy ?


Another problem is that Israel has VERY effective lobby groups that provide donations, collect influence, sometimes even force the defeat of people who oppose them in other peoples governments.

This makes rational arguments difficult... and also would not be tolerated if say... Russia was acting in the same fashion.


It is not only Israel that is broken


But back to Israel, I posted a while back an opinion piece that suggested that internal politics inside Israel would not allow compromises necessary for any peace deal as long as there wasn't an outside influence they could point at and say " we have been pushed into this " Any political party trying to act on its own would lose power, but with the excuse of losing aid, or trade... they might get away with it.




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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:31 PM

MINCINGBEAST


a worldwide israeli conspiracy may be, to some extent accurate. but it also provides covers for assholes who can cite the protocols of the elders of zion and simply substitute "israeli" for "jew." hence my discomfort.

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:52 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Nah, I was pointing out (being yanno, not born back then) that AT THE TIME, most nations had "such a hard-on for them" that they had no inclination to take in their refugees and pointing out that they were guilty of a lot of dirty business before WWII - not that they were *alone* in that, by far, but folks do tend to skip over and dance around the reasons that no nation would give them asylum, cause they were holding a grudge, some of it legit, some of it not...

Problem is, post WWII we're supposed to pretend that prior to that their behavior was absolutely angelic ?
C'mon folks, that's bullshit, and imma call it as such.

The reason *I* have such a nasty on for em politically is the simple fact that we're pouring money, resources, military equipment, into a country that does NOTHING BUT STAB US IN THE BACK EVERY CHANCE THEY GET - yeah, that'll tend to piss me off, yanno ?

I mean, I got a laundry list of shit they've pulled, most of which they admitted to, which IF ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET did to us, we'd be at war with, and here we are practically on our knees fellating them ?
Oh fuck that - and Bidens little talk is just blowing smoke, talk is cheap, and so far, that's all it's been, talk - which everyone on this dirtball prettymuch knows we won't hold to anyways.

As far as religious and racial intolerance, well, other than folks like PN and whatnot, it's not that folks ain't intolerant against em, although these days it seems calling them on their *actual behavior* gets labelled intolerance... it's that folks tend to hate on arabs and muslims even more, and there's plenty of folk, Rappy as a case in point, who support Israel for the sole purpose of their wholesale slaughter of such, believe me Niki, the words "two for one special" were so over the top they made *ME* wanna puke, be glad you weren't here for that discussion.

Nor was I in any way advocating nuclear weapons, I was pointing out that the folk currently in charge of that country are SO insane that they would, absolutely, start WWIII if they could, rather than not be in control, they're really that far gone, and it gives me the willies, and I suspect that's one reason folks are reluctant to call them out, cause they're friggin psychotic.

If I thought anything less would get the idea across, believe me, I would not have made that tomahawk missle suggestion, but in all honesty, I don't think anything less would be effective, cause if you *did* try to boycott them, you risk winding up thrown in the clink next to Zundel for "anti-semetism", or whatever you wanna call it, but basically even calling them on their bullshit is damn near illegal, and that is insane.

And yeah, we're not exactly paragons of moral virtue neither, cause Hitlers solution to his jewish problem was indeed cribbed straight off our solution to the native american problem, not to mention we were rounding up japanese-americans and stuffin em into camps ourselves - I make no bones about calling our misdeeds neither, difference is I get seriously pissy about being forced at gunpoint to finance someone elses.

And while it might seem I am being unusually harsh, look at the laundry list of crap they've pulled since 1946 and consider just how hard it's ever gonna be for anyone to trust them as a nation and religious/political entity ever again, I wasn't kiddin when I used the exact phrase "Chronic Backstabbing Disorder" - we're supposed to be their ally and yet...

Comverse Infosystems, AMDOCS, Zonealarm fiasco, Lavon Affair, Aipac, USS Liberty, "Art students", "Moving companies" and a whole lot of suspicious characters on forged passports checking out our infrastructure, as of late "locksmiths" too, which like the moving companies have engaged in direct criminal behavior and scammery as well as espionage - and we just sit there and take it and take it and smile and beg for more while handing them billions in cash and military equipment ?

Oh yes, I am very, very angry about that.

The moment that did it for me was quite a while back, reading about an incident where some palestinian leader they didn't like cause he wasn't subservient enough (he wasn't even accused of terrorism, they just didn't like his attitude) was supposed to be at a certain place and time, and they decided to knock him off...

So they sent a pair of (american made) helicopter gunships armed with (american made) cannon and missles, and basically swept the whole street with em, just as an elementary school was letting out, and they didn't even get the guy cause they were operating on bad data.

When questioned over all those schoolkids they just blew up, the official attitude, quite blatant and unapologetic was - *shrug* "so what, they're just palestinians, prolly grow up to be terrorists anyway, world's better off without em" - and THAT, that was the very moment I considered the current political leadership of Israel to be not only insane, but evil.

And from all that I have seen, that sickness did not die with Ariel Sharon as it should have, but continues to this day, and every time I look at the brutal tax hit I take as an independant contractor, and realize a substantial chunk of it goes to directly supporting that behavior, and THAT is what drives me into a rage.

I am well aware they're not the only backwards-looking theistic jackasses in the region, hell, they're not even the only ones we're supporting cause the House of Saud ain't a whole lot better, but when you have blatant outright massacres cause "Oh, well, they fired a mortar at us, so we killed two hundred of em, serves em right, hahahahaha"....

And we go and KISS THEIR ASS while handing them more money for their "defense"....
(oh screw it, just insert a fuckton of profanity here and just cut to the chase)

There just isn't any way on earth I can be anything other than passionately angry about it, and still be a human being.

Biden might talk and talk and talk, but till I see them cut that damned flow of money and weapons to em, it's all just talk to me, and I am tired of MY tax dime financing atrocities, and even more so of our politicians who just bend over and smile to an "ally" who has naught but duplicity and derision for us and the rest of the world.

People I can take or leave, I think the refuseniks have prolly the biggest balls on the planet, going up against a society that either supports those abuses, or lacks the courage to say no and refuse to commit them, but their society, culture and government in the current era ?

No, I don't care for it, and when forced to support it while our infrastructure and economy crumbles - I downright hate it.

Not gonna lie about that, no point in it, that's as close to reasonable as imma ever get so long as we're their bitch.

-Frem

ETA: Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible ?

How is this much different ?

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:18 PM

MINCINGBEAST


ahem. i repeat, Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."

this is not a statement about the current misdeeds of israel, which i would generally agre with you on. this is a statement justifying the historical persecution of the jews because "they do shit like this" and always have. nobody is claiming the jews are angels, but it seems that you come pretty close to claiming the reverse. i dunno, for some reason i expected more from you.

EDIT:
"Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible"

I imagine I'd be upset, but would like to think that I wouldn't segue into some sort of argument that "Well, Africans have always acted like this, and always will, and somebody has to say it, but thats why racism exists."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:21 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.




But the quest for statehood existed long before WW2 and the holocaust. It's a misnomer to think that statehood was simply a means of 'pay back' for the atrocities levied upon the Jewish people.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:03 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
ahem. i repeat, Mr Frem: "due to... well, lets cut the bullshit, no one else wanted them because despite the Muslim tolerance of them on occasion, they acted a hell of a lot like this even BACK THEN too, which is why ole Adolf found it so easy to rile folk up against em - doesn't justify it, but fuck, man, someone has to say it, they *DO* shit like this, they always have, which is also what set the Christians to persecuting them in the first place."

this is not a statement about the current misdeeds of israel, which i would generally agre with you on. this is a statement justifying the historical persecution of the jews because "they do shit like this" and always have. nobody is claiming the jews are angels, but it seems that you come pretty close to claiming the reverse. i dunno, for some reason i expected more from you.

EDIT:
"Lemme throw this last bit in, how would you feel if we had been directly financially and militarily supporting genocide in Rwanda while sucking up to the folks committing it in every way possible"

I imagine I'd be upset, but would like to think that I wouldn't segue into some sort of argument that "Well, Africans have always acted like this, and always will, and somebody has to say it, but thats why racism exists."



But to some degree your last statement does have some truth...

Tribal warfare in many parts of Africa historically hits close to genocide... and that hate of the other group has stayed with the culture... or the Balkans as another example

Historically in many places people have lashed out at the Jewish for various reasons and that left the same sort of cultural imperative... perhaps some deserved and some not

Not saying it is good or right... but if we don't acknowledge that it exists we would be in error

Unfortunately I would have to point out the actions of Israel generates the current, largest source of anti semitic feeling... even on a global scale. As a Jewish guy I used to work with said once... " Those fuckers are giving us all a black eye "

He even quit his synagogue after a disagreement over their raising funds to send to Israel...

A present day Adolf could easily use such feelings to justify a new crackdown... right ?

I think that is why many Jewish groups try to separate themselves from Israel in the public mind

and yet another reason to end this mess once and for all...




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Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:16 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Despite the liberatorS' desires to help the surviving European Jews after WWII, I believe when you look at the 65 years of "recent" history since then, the whole Israel "statehood" thing was a gigantic mistake.




But the quest for statehood existed long before WW2 and the holocaust. It's a misnomer to think that statehood was simply a means of 'pay back' for the atrocities levied upon the Jewish people.




Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."




They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "

hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were






Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:06 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:


They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "

hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were




I use to think as you. I guess it's all in how you're taught history.

The Brits weren't going to hold onto the land forever.

It was more a fire sale / give away than " pay back ". 10's of 1000's of Jews had been immigrating into the area long before 1948.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:16 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I tend to defend Israel on two bases:

That however 'benevolently' Israel acted, people would still be determined to wipe it out - so pacifism isn't viable.

And although it is by far the stronger party in the conflict, it takes both parties to make peace.

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?

Heads should roll

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:50 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Ain't tryin to justify any of it, it's all nuts.

Just tryin to explain the WHY, such as can be done with a situation this insane, and point out that were we to make the moral decision of cutting them off financially, politically, and militarily, they're likely to either get obliterated or start WWIII, neither of which are particularly nice options.

Desperate people do some pretty horrible things, and desperate they were, back THEN - there's no excuse to continue that behavior, especially when they've pressed Palestine to the wall and made THEM desperate, which just feeds the cycle.

As stated, it takes both sides to make peace, and alas that Israel ain't havin any of it.

Tell me folks, how many of these "agreements" have they *not* broken, usually before the ink is even dry ?

Bueller ?

Anyone ?

-F

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?




On this matter, I can not. I don't know why it's deemed necessary to go forth in building these settlements , unless ( and I'm only guessing here ) it's thought that no compromise can be made w/ those who'd lob rockets at civilians. But it may be entirely something else all together.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:58 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:


They might have wanted it, but they never would have gotten it without... therefore it was " pay back "

hell without the post WW2 guilt, they would have been hunted down as terrorists... which they were




I use to think as you. I guess it's all in how you're taught history.

The Brits weren't going to hold onto the land forever.

It was more a fire sale / give away than " pay back ". 10's of 1000's of Jews had been immigrating into the area long before 1948.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



But even today after decades of immigration, after all the Arab and Palestinian people that moved or were driven out

Jewish people are still a minority compared to the Arab / Druze / Palestinian demographic...

the numbers do get a bit distorted as since about 2002 you need to add the occupied territorys as a seperate demographic.. but considering what was Palestine in 1948 it remains true


What sort of government would the Brits have left if not for WW2 ? and when would they have left ?

Would be the questions...


I doubt they would have left things as there are now...






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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:01 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?




On this matter, I can not. I don't know why it's deemed necessary to go forth in building these settlements , unless ( and I'm only guessing here ) it's thought that no compromise can be made w/ those who'd lob rockets at civilians. But it may be entirely something else all together.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



or cut off food and supplys from a population

or use WP shells on a population

or bulldoze people out of their homes

or shoot farmers while they work their fields

etc, etc , etc


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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:14 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
I tend to defend Israel on two bases:

That however 'benevolently' Israel acted, people would still be determined to wipe it out - so pacifism isn't viable.

And although it is by far the stronger party in the conflict, it takes both parties to make peace.

That said, the constant settlement building angers me, and seems completely inexcusable. I would like to hear somebody make a defense case for it. Auraptor?

Heads should roll



I don't think it is defensible

but from what little I know about internal Israeli politics there is elements who want to push for all the land they can claim...

and with coalition governments already on the far right... not a hard sell for them to keep building to appease some of these factions in order to stay in power.

Take a look at a map that shows the weird borders they are trying to push as well...

they are grabbing all the water, lakes, rivers, resourses they can... any decent farm land, etc

ten years from now, no manner of negotiation will move the settlers off

Israel will keep this going as long as they can to keep grabbing bits and pieces here and there.

Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?


I think the Palestinians often shoot themselves in the foot with crazy looking leaders making wacky declarations... but then again mind you... any time it looks like anyone could bring their factions together... Israel seems to find a reason to whack him.

While it is hard to negotiate with a mob

when you whack anybody who could become a leader which you could sit down with... it is a mob of your own creation



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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

or cut off food and supplys from a population

or use WP shells on a population

or bulldoze people out of their homes

or shoot farmers while they work their fields

etc, etc , etc




Yeah, WP shells were used. Illegally or w/ intent on civilians ? Not proven. Overlooking the fact that Pal militants routinely hide behind or under civilian buildings, knowing full well the Israelis are reluctant to shoot, with the world looking on. But there's only so much one can stand before their hand is forced. Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.

Bulldozers, shooting folks....sorry, I don't find such claims to be so credible as presented at face value.

On such matters, the REST of the story needs to be told.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?




Two answers - yes and yes.

When others have vowed to wipe YOU out, then it's o.k. to wipe them out first.

Didn't Israel give UP land ? Something like GAZA ? And how was that GOOD FAITH deed repaid ? Rockets. Not a few or a few dozen, but 1000's of rockets.

When have the PALS ever negotiated in good faith ?


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:

or cut off food and supplys from a population

or use WP shells on a population

or bulldoze people out of their homes

or shoot farmers while they work their fields

etc, etc , etc




Yeah, WP shells were used. Illegally or w/ intent on civilians ? Not proven. Overlooking the fact that Pal militants routinely hide behind or under civilian buildings, knowing full well the Israelis are reluctant to shoot, with the world looking on. But there's only so much one can stand before their hand is forced. Much of the alleged atrocities the Israelis are blamed for are in fact the fault of the Pal Gov't themselves.

Bulldozers, shooting folks....sorry, I don't find such claims to be so credible as presented at face value.

On such matters, the REST of the story needs to be told.


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."



Israel is the party that has consistently restricted media access

Any lack of info is square on them.

I could post away dozens of news storys at this point... but they have all been put up here before

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/03/2010362141312196.
html


throwing out Palestians to move Jews in

even Israeli folk are protesting these things





Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:28 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Two Questions...

Does Israel have the right to wipe other people out ?

Do you think Israel has negotiated in good faith.. ever ?




Two answers - yes and yes.

When others have vowed to wipe YOU out, then it's o.k. to wipe them out first.

Didn't Israel give UP land ? Something like GAZA ? And how was that GOOD FAITH deed repaid ? Rockets. Not a few or a few dozen, but 1000's of rockets.

When have the PALS ever negotiated in good faith ?


Summer Glau can simply walk into Mordor


Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."




Great... Then the Taliban are justified in killing every American they can

pre emptive self defense, after all your stated goal is to wipe them out

and any gov the US supports that oppresses anyone... they can start killing Americans by the dozens as well



I would loved to hear what you would have to say after living in Gaza for six months...

perhaps you would have some empathy at least.




Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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