REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Death takes a holiday

POSTED BY: WHOZIT
UPDATED: Saturday, August 15, 2009 13:42
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Friday, August 14, 2009 12:16 PM

WHOZIT


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090813/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_end_of_
life_2


WAIT! Didn't Barry and his filthy whores in the press say it wasn't in there? Then how did they remove something that wasn't there?


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Friday, August 14, 2009 12:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Are you talking about the OPTIONAL "living will" counseling that they removed, or the "MANDATORY DEATH PANELS" that were never in there, and still aren't?

This is great - you've just handed the insurance industry MORE of your money, since now if you want a consultation regarding a living will, a DNR order, or any kind of end-of-life planning ("Pull the plug if I'm a vegetable and brain dead" or "Take every heroic measure possible to keep my heart beating, even if my brain is the consistency of curdled yogurt") with your doctor, you get to pay for it out of your pocket, regardless of whether you have health insurance or not.

Explain to me how this is a "win" for anyone who doesn't work for an insurance company.

Mike


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Friday, August 14, 2009 12:52 PM

CUDA77

Like woman, I am a mystery.


It's a win for Republicans because they put off SOSHULIZM for at least a little longer in their sad, warped minds.

Or are they benefiting enough from insurance companies buying them out that they don't count?


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Friday, August 14, 2009 12:53 PM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Are you talking about the OPTIONAL "living will" counseling that they removed, or the "MANDATORY DEATH PANELS" that were never in there, and still aren't?

This is great - you've just handed the insurance industry MORE of your money, since now if you want a consultation regarding a living will, a DNR order, or any kind of end-of-life planning ("Pull the plug if I'm a vegetable and brain dead" or "Take every heroic measure possible to keep my heart beating, even if my brain is the consistency of curdled yogurt") with your doctor, you get to pay for it out of your pocket, regardless of whether you have health insurance or not.

Explain to me how this is a "win" for anyone who doesn't work for an insurance company.

Mike


I don't HAVE to give them my money, but the Gov WILL take it weather I like it or not.....and Scions are ugly.

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Friday, August 14, 2009 1:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


What do Scions have to do with the governor and the weather?

Mike


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Friday, August 14, 2009 2:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Take every heroic measure possible to keep my heart beating, even if my brain is the consistency of curdled yogurt"


Whozit has the jump on that, since he not only has the still beating thing going on, but apparently internet access.

Not bad for someone who technically qualifies as being in a vegetative state. neh ?

-F

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Friday, August 14, 2009 8:55 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Gotta tell ya, I was hospitalized this spring with some heart trouble and had 3 different cardiac catheterizations.( Spell checker sez I didn't spell that right, but I don't care, ya know, it's that thing where they put a gadget in the artery in your leg and then work on yer heart from the inside.) Each time, as part of the prep, somebody came around and explained that I was gonna be anesthetized, which could kill me, or the heart proceedure could kill me, tho neither one of those was as likely as one of Mal's plans working out. Twice I was visited by priests beforehand ( Catholic hospitals...) to ask if I had filed an end of life directive, permanent power of attorney, wanted last rites or religious councilling even tho' I'm not Catholic, etc.

I kept discussing it with these various folks and my wife, and I kept saying the same things: I didn't want to be Terry Schiavo, but I didn't want them to just pull the plug if my heart stopped, without trying to revive me. Wanted some kind of middle course, especially if it looked like I could recover from whatever might go wrong. To which my primary cardiologist said, " Of course, that's what we figured to do if things went wrong, which they ain't gonna."

Well, they didn't and I'm still here, no more brain-damaged than I was before.

Point being, even now, the pros in the biz are aware of the issues, and are gonna mention it, ask ya about it, warn ya to think about it, any time you get in a serious enough situation to require surgery, just in case. They may not pressure you for an answer, but they'll talk about it.

They might not if you were in a long term, nursing home or similar situation, but in the hospital, they will fer shure.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


Point being, even now, the pros in the biz are aware of the issues, and are gonna mention it, ask ya about it, warn ya to think about it, any time you get in a serious enough situation to require surgery, just in case. They may not pressure you for an answer, but they'll talk about it.



And now that they're trying to write it all down in legalese and codify it, you can bet that somewhere, there's a clever young attorney working for an insurance company who's trying to get out of paying for that procedure in the future, because they discussed end-of-life issues with you, which they specifically WILL NOT be covering.

Mike


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 3:36 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Gotta tell ya, I was hospitalized this spring with some heart trouble and had 3 different cardiac catheterizations.( Spell checker sez I didn't spell that right, but I don't care, ya know, it's that thing where they put a gadget in the artery in your leg and then work on yer heart from the inside.) Each time, as part of the prep, somebody came around and explained that I was gonna be anesthetized, which could kill me, or the heart proceedure could kill me, tho neither one of those was as likely as one of Mal's plans working out. Twice I was visited by priests beforehand ( Catholic hospitals...) to ask if I had filed an end of life directive, permanent power of attorney, wanted last rites or religious councilling even tho' I'm not Catholic, etc.

I kept discussing it with these various folks and my wife, and I kept saying the same things: I didn't want to be Terry Schiavo, but I didn't want them to just pull the plug if my heart stopped, without trying to revive me. Wanted some kind of middle course, especially if it looked like I could recover from whatever might go wrong. To which my primary cardiologist said, " Of course, that's what we figured to do if things went wrong, which they ain't gonna."

Well, they didn't and I'm still here, no more brain-damaged than I was before.

Point being, even now, the pros in the biz are aware of the issues, and are gonna mention it, ask ya about it, warn ya to think about it, any time you get in a serious enough situation to require surgery, just in case. They may not pressure you for an answer, but they'll talk about it.

They might not if you were in a long term, nursing home or similar situation, but in the hospital, they will fer shure.



The biggest thing is to talk with your family about your wishes. My Mom had a DNR and Living Will but the Dr still talked with my brother and myself when she ended up on a ventilator and had cardiac arythemethia (wrong I know)after emergency surgery a year ago May.

Unfortunately she passed away about 30 minutes after the ventilator was turned off (she had multiple serious medical problems) but we could have kept her on the ventilator but we knew her wishes and they were on a legal form.

BTW if you look on the NC Secretary of State's web site, the Health Care Power of Attorney and Desire for a Natural Death are there to be downloaded EDIT: with(OUT) an attorney or insurance company being involved. And it offers a registry too. http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/ahcdr/

There is even a form for mental health care.

And yes, they do talk with you about this when you check into a nursing home and when they annually review your file.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:25 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

And yes, they do talk with you about this when you check into a nursing home and when they annually review your file.



WAIT- are you saying the insurance companies, hospitals, and nursing homes have "DEATH PANELS"?!



Mike


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:36 AM

LEADB


FUD. Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.
Powerful tools, don't abuse them. Oops. Too late. Again.

Also, I like Scions, at least xB's.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:41 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:

The biggest thing is to talk with your family about your wishes.

(snipped some.)

And yes, they do talk with you about this when you check into a nursing home and when they annually review your file.



My wife was there for most of the prep times. But she wasn't for the initial admission, and if I'd been unconscious or in a coma or already brain-dead or something, or any kind of unexpected crisis, which of course the whole thing was, coulda been bad.

I gotta get something down on paper, just in case.
And, I'm glad they do discuss this at nursing homes and such. Needs to be done.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:47 AM

NCBROWNCOAT


No. The nursing home goes over some things with the patient (if competent) and his or her representative if asked for.

Even short term patients like my Mom, who was there for physical therapy after a hip replacement had to go through this process because she was there at records review time.

They go over lots of things. Complaints, if any, medical care or physical therapy being done, how do you like the food and activities etc.

They also ask if the patient has a Living Will or DNR. They need to know how to act and who to call if the patient has a medical crisis.

SOP at this particular nursing home was to call the EMT's for an emergency and transport to the local hospital with the RN on duty providing basic emergency care until they arrived.

They also had patients that were basically in a long term hospice type situation due to old age and multiple medical problems. A DNR on file would make a difference in the response by the staff. no CPR before the EMT's arrived etc. But that decision is made by the patient and/or family.

From my looking at the local obituaries (I work at a bank as an administrative assistant and I have the job of sending sympathy cards to customer's families and per law we freeze the account until proper documentation is produced by the executor of the estate) it seems a month doesn't pass that some one doesn't die at a one of the two local nursing homes.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Saturday, August 15, 2009 4:49 AM

WHOZIT


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What do Scions have to do with the governor and the weather?

Mike


I don't have to give the insurance companys my money, BUT I will have to pay the government or be fined..........and Scions are still ugly.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 6:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Is that brain dead person still babbling???

-----------------
NewOld et all- When you go in for a specific procedure, some hopsitals will make you sign what is in essence a living will. But that is FOR THAT PROCEDURE ONLY. If you're discharged and later readmitted, the old agreement is void.

In an emergency situation, you go wherever the dispatcher sends you. (ie. Closest hopital with required level of services in which the ER is accepting patients). No guarantees you will wind up in the closest hospital OR hospital of choice. If you call EMTs, they are OBLIGATED to keep working on you all the way through the ER. They cannot honor a DNR. If you're sent to a hospital which does not have your living will on-file, they have no instructions to follow. If someone is given papers to sign, they're usually written as either/or: heroic or pull-the-plug. There is a difference between a DNR and a DNR/DNI. This all varies from state to state. My point is: it's complicated. Certain actions on YOUR part- such as calling EMTs- will activate certain protocols. Each hospital has its own forms and procedures, not witten to reflect the nuances YOU may want respected.

Seen people flub end-of-life in both directions and it was very sad. Tragic, even. The best thing to do is to write your living will as you see fit. We have SPECIFIC instructions on when to "pull the plug" (brain dead and on life support for three months, given that many people have recovered unexpectedly). Also, give a reliable person a medical Power of Attorney so that they can make sure your instruction are followed, no matter which hospital you're taken to. For this kind of advice and service, plus a written Springing Power of Attorney for our daughter (She may be brain-damaged, but she does NOT want to give us Power of Attorney unless she's incapacitated! She knows which side is up!) we paid an attorney. It would be awfully nice to have this covered by insurance.


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 6:50 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by whozit:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
What do Scions have to do with the governor and the weather?

Mike


I don't have to give the insurance companys my money, BUT I will have to pay the government or be fined..........and Scions are still ugly.



You don't have to give the insurance companies your money? So you're saying you don't have insurance? Who pays your medical bills, then? Your mommy? The taxpayers? All of US? Wouldn't that be "socialism"?

If you do give the insurance companies your money, wouldn't you like to think you'd actually get something for that money when the time comes? Good luck with that.

Mike


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 6:54 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

It would be awfully nice to have this covered by insurance.


Yes, Signy, but apparently you having access to an attorney and having it covered by your insurance would be "socialism". THEM having access to entire law firms and having you pay for it through your premiums is called "capitalism".

At least that's what The Zit seems to be advocating.


Mike


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 7:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Kwicko- Well, see, we created OUR OWN "death panel". We must be planning to kill ourselves and our daughter! "And her little dog too!" Horrible, isn't it?

Zit- If you're not covered by insurance I want you to pay me back for any services you get on my dime.

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 12:48 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Hello Mike. I'm new here, refugee from the OB (original Firefly board by Fox). I love a good debate, but there, it's no holes barred and people get UGLY immediately. I just read this thread through, and it's a PLEASURE to see an honest debate without every other word being a slur or an attack.

I'm sure they're not all this civilized, but it's promising, for me, to find a place where it's possible to debate.

Essentially, I'm glad you wrote what you did and glad to see some people realize that a move to have people's end-of-life issue counseling PAID FOR is all that this idiocy is.

The Republicans (you guys already know this probably) were all in favor of this up until they found a way the could twist it to frighten people. It was proposed that a tax cut should be created to pay for this counseling, by a Republican. What's happening right now is pathetic.

I just wanted to mention that, as great as it is that convalescent homes and hospitals counsel you on these issues, as pointed out, none of that covers emergencies, and if one hasn't made CAREFUL preparations (which can be overriden in some circumstances if not done properly), one can end up in one helluva pickle...possibly even AS a pickle.

Even given the counseling hospitals and convalescent homes give, those are only generalized consultations, I'm guessing. To SEE someone specifically for end-of-life consulting to be sure you've covered everything properly costs...I guess costs us, now, as you said, because the issue was successfully made into a scare tactic.

I think it's a shame they had to pull a provision which harms nobody and could be useful to anyone. I also think the concept of "free abortions on our dime", "Vets will lose out" and all the other scare tacts are sad and defeat us. All in the name of politics. Ah, America.

Niki

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Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:06 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)




Honestly, I'm really surprised that the right-wing whackos aren't claiming that if you sign your organ-donor card, the government is going to come in and steal your kidneys tonight while you're asleep!


Oh, wait - I'm sure at least a few of them actively believe that.

Mike


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Saturday, August 15, 2009 1:42 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Uhhh...you don't want to be suggesting such a thing, do you?? You might be giving them ideas...

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