Yet another 'isolated incident'.. by Fremdfirma

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Yet another 'isolated incident'..

POSTED BY: FREMDFIRMA
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 05:03
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Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:38 AM

Minnesota: Slap on Wrist for Cop Who Rammed Minivan Full of Kids

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/27/2723.asp
(Dashcam video available at link)

A Minnesota state trooper was mildly scolded for ramming a minivan with three children for the crime of changing lanes without signaling.

The Minnesota State Trooper who rammed a slow-moving minivan on New Year's Eve was given a slap on the wrist Wednesday. A written reprimand was placed in the personnel folder of Sergeant Carrie Rindal, mildly criticizing her for twice slamming her patrol car into the Toyota Sienna minivan belonging to Sam Salter, 40, who had been driving his two, three and six-year-old children home to Hudson, Wisconsin just before midnight on Interstate 94 in St. Paul.

With rock music blaring in her squad car, Rindal activated her police lights and siren to chase after the man she claimed had made a lane change without signaling. Salter is seen in the video carefully pulling toward the right, turn signal on, within ten seconds. Salter, concerned for his family's safety, did not want to pull into the snow-filled highway shoulder. He took less than a minute to reach the exit to Highway 61, driving slowly. Twenty-two seconds later, as Salter turned onto Burns Avenue away from the high-speed traffic, Rindal rammed the minivan from the side and then once more from behind.

"What are you doing?" Salter screamed as he exited the minivan. "I have three kids in my car and you just hit me."

Rindal held the man at gunpoint while his children watched their father placed under arrest. Salter was incarcerated for the next 37 hours for making an illegal lane change and "eluding police." His damaged car was also impounded and he was mailed a $130 ticket, even though prosecutors declined to charge him for any crime. A police review board investigating the incident supported Rindal on her choice of a gunpoint arrest and suggested there were places on the icy highway where Salter could have stopped. The board did not, however, believe Salter was fleeing police during the one minute-twenty second low-speed chase. For that, the state police chief labeled the entire incident "regrettable."

Salter was not interested in pursuing a long legal battle, so he only asked for $9500 to cover his direct expenses from the incident, including legal bills, repair bills and the time lost with his family. The State Patrol accepted the settlement.
=====================

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:12 AM

WHOZIT

You should send this to the DRUDGE Report, he posts alot of storys like this.

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Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:26 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I see the problem here: CARRIE...

This is typical of nutty cops with PTSD for whatever reason. Van driver could'a got a lot more if he'd waited on a court battle on a Section 1983 lawsuit for false arrest and false imprisonment. But the cop having to pay HIM $9,500 for a traffic stop is a pretty good deal. Too bad his lawyer fees were included in that. Lawyer got at least $5,000.

A KPD cop pulled me over for "illegal lane change", while driving 50 mph in a 55 zone on the interstate.

His in-car video showed him changing lanes, speeding without emergency lights or siren, and driving off-road like a loonie. (end of video)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5367135218937834623

I requested his personnel file as part of routine discovery. He had crashed his patrol car into innocent bystanders 4 times in his 5 years as a cop, by rear-ending them at stop signs and red lights. He was also the "personal chauffeur" for the chief of police.

Case dismissed, cop demoted to desk jockey (a job normally reserved for disabled cops).

Now he's a Knox county commissioner, trying to annex Knox County TN into a Metro govt to double their taxes.

I never pull over immediately, until it's safe to do so. But I signal the cop. Often they sneak up behind WITHOUT using a siren, just flashing lights, which is ILLEGAL. So drivers don't know a cop is behind them allegedly trying to pull them over. This allows frivolous charges of "eluding police" and "resisting arrest".

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Monday, March 23, 2009 4:18 AM

FREMDFIRMA

http://www.freep.com/article/20090323/NEWS06/90323003/1001/NEWS/Bay+Ci
ty+teen+dies+after+police+Taser+him

BAY CITY — State police are investigating the death of a 15-year-old who was Tasered by Bay City police officers who were trying to break up a fight.

The Bay City Times identifies the victim as Brett Elder.

A Bay City police news release says officers answered a report of a fight about 3:40 a.m. Sunday. The statement says two males were arguing in an apartment, and one of them “attempted to fight the officers.”

Bay City police say officers Tasered him, and his reaction led them to immediately call for emergency medical help. He was pronounced dead at Bay Regional Medical Center.

Deputy Chief Thomas Pletzke tells WNEM-TV police placed one officer on administrative leave.

Not making it into the news, and not likely to, is the fact that the State Police most definately suspect foul play on behalf of the local officers, one of them going so far as to comment on the local officers written report "what a load of bullshit!"

They came down on it fast too, before the jerks in question could concoct a more plausible story and collaborate on it, and word is they confiscated the taser unit too.

While I doubt the MSP is gonna do anything but help bury this, given that most folk suspect their reaction had more to do with how the officers in question bungled the coverup than anything else - it does leave a few loose ends lying around, like the fact of who Brent *was* and why they most certainly had a motive.

Also gonna put the arm on the coroner today, especially if someones pressuring him to play the "excited delerium" card, which they no doubt are.

Also, a recent statistical report has surfaced indicating that one is *more* at risk of death if a cop fires a taser at you than a firearm, but imma reserve judgement till I can get my hands on a copy - if it holds up though, that's a bit of a bombshell all by itself.

A Taser is a potentially lethal weapon, it's NOT a people-remote.

-Frem

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Monday, March 23, 2009 4:52 AM

FREMDFIRMA

UPDATE: An on-site witness to the above event has confirmed that the local cops followed the usual pattern, apparently brent "mouthed off" to them and they gave him the "lightning ride" - as in zapping him over and over for a little "street justice".

One way or another, someones gonna pay for this, believe it.

-F

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Monday, March 23, 2009 5:46 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:

One way or another, someones gonna pay for this, believe it.

I wish I *could* believe that someone was going to pay for this. More likely, the city will pay a settlement and the cops will get a slap on the wrist and the keys to a new cruiser...

:(

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

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Monday, March 23, 2009 5:52 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

A Taser is...NOT a people-remote.

Defacto says you are wrong.

The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, March 23, 2009 5:57 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

A Taser is...NOT a people-remote.

Defacto says you are wrong.

The laughing Chrisisall

I'm shopping for a doggie remote control unit. They got 2 kinds, bark collars and shock collars. Bark collars are just shock collars without the remote. For extreme cases theres the exploding collar.

Note that mind control slaves like Cathy OBrien do get the remote-control collar treatment, along with many other types of electrocution. Big Brother is your friend... or a pervert serial killer psychopath.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 6:16 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Mikey, when I say someones gonna pay, I mean it.

Hell, I am still, to this very day dumping crap on Georgia DA David McDade, not the least of which is raking State Rep Barry Fleming for taking a thousand bucks of that "dirty pervert's money".
(Political contributions are a matter of public record, you see...)

And of course helping State Senator Emanuel Jones bust his chops at every turn and corner while he attempts to outlaw blackmail of the type McDade used by mass mailing the tapes.

And using his long list of misdeeds to bash the shit out of Capital Punishment, and Bob Barr (who defended the sumbitch publicly) cause his very misbehavior makes him an effective strawman against any argument he attaches himself to.

And parleying his own blackened past into adding weight to Stephen Reed's lawsuit against him over a very debateable accusation he seems bent on pursuing despite insufficient evidence to do so, gee, that sounds like a familiar pattern, dunnit ?

When I make a point of it, I can be a right damned pain in the ass.

If the counter on that Taser reads anything but one, the officer in question is gonna be regrettin it a long, long time.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, March 23, 2009 8:41 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
A Taser is a potentially lethal weapon, it's NOT a people-remote.

People remote? Hmmm...I'll have to pass that one along to my cops. They'll like that.

Tasers are great. It gives cops an option between getting physical and shooting.

People (including the police) are far less likely to die or get injured when a taser is used then if they are forced to resort to physical violence (such as with fist or club) or pull their handgun.

I say if they can't resolve things peacefully...at least give them a chance to get everybody out alive and unhurt. Sure...its not perfect, but its better then fist, clubs, or guns.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Monday, March 23, 2009 10:44 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Tasers are great. It gives cops an option between getting physical and shooting.

Yep , 'cause everyone knows the typical 'donut warden' is not bright enough to create a de-escalation of an incident , and getting 'physical' (latent homoerotic trait) and shooting someone are as much as their queer little minds can handle...

Giving them a taser is just an indictment , giving proof of non compos mentis incompetence...

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Monday, March 23, 2009 12:45 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Big Brother is your friend... or a pervert serial killer psychopath.

Why not both? Why can't he be your pervert serial killer psychopath friend?

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Monday, March 23, 2009 12:49 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
A Taser is a potentially lethal weapon, it's NOT a people-remote.

People remote? Hmmm...I'll have to pass that one along to my cops. They'll like that.

Tasers are great. It gives cops an option between getting physical and shooting.

People (including the police) are far less likely to die or get injured when a taser is used then if they are forced to resort to physical violence (such as with fist or club) or pull their handgun.

I say if they can't resolve things peacefully...at least give them a chance to get everybody out alive and unhurt. Sure...its not perfect, but its better then fist, clubs, or guns.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

Problem is, the Taser should be the next-to-last thing the cop goes for - after everything else fails, and before he goes for his gun. Instead, what we see all too often is that it's the FIRST thing they go for, because they've been trained to think of the Taser as "less-than-lethal" - which it isn't, necessarily. It needs to be treated as "near lethal force", which will make its misuse less common, and less accepted.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Monday, March 23, 2009 5:37 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Mikey is correct, that's always been our beef, that the Taser should be placed just below the service weapon on the use of force continuum.

Problem is, now that the genie of street justice is out of the bottle, you ain't gonna get it back in without taking the damn things away till the overgrown schoolyard bullies you dimwits keep recruiting to the force lose their little toy for a while.

Updates on the incident at hand, the subject was in handcuffs when tasered, and was indeed tasered repeatedly - something Deputy Chief Thomas Pletzke either was unaware of (unlikely) or deliberately lied about when interviewed on local television.

This is not in doubt, as it leaves quite distinctive marks when someone expires wearing handcuffs.

Taser International sent their pet enforcers up here with a pack of lawyers to block the autopsy results from becoming public, and try to spin some damage control, but they're playing catch up since we were standing ready to dump sand in the gears of their coverup before they even got off the plane.

Two points of fact worth a mention that hardcopy proof of is available to counter their spin.

Taser use has not in any way reduced police firearm use to any significant degree, AND since deployment have increased, rather than decreased, in-custody deaths.

Fully one third of subjects hit by a Taser require medical attention afterwords, casting serious doubts on the presumed safety of the device.

It is a LESS-Lethal weapon, not a NON-Lethal one.

Oh, and one final bit to add, were holding a few precedent cases up our sleeve just in case, where police officers were threatened or hit with a Taser in the hands of a civvie - in EVERY case, the civvie was charged with....
Assault with a DEADLY weapon.

Which completely blows any legal claim to safety they wish to make in court, now.

-Frem

EDIT: Updated Story.
http://www.mlive.com/news/bay-city/index.ssf/2009/03/family_of_bay_cit
y_teen_killed.html

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:35 AM

CITIZEN

I've always thought making most Police unarmed makes them safer. If the Police don't have a magnum down their trousers, not only do most criminals no longer need to be armed themselves, but the Police are going to have to use less violent tactics to subdue the situation. Also if the criminal is armed, they won't have to shoot the police in order to get away, because it won't be a shoot or be shot equation.

AURaptor advocates child murder:

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
When Pal women start dressing up their babies in suicide pampers, might be a good idea to go ahead and take care of both of them at once, before they have a chance to kill.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=37443#687361

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:39 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Citizen,

The Bobbies in particular, so far as I am aware of, did a better job of things not only for that, but because of the nature of their creation by Sir Robert Peel, who evolved them from the traditional nightwatchmen and was very stringent in NOT allowing them to seperate themselves from the rest of the citizenry, by enacting the Peelian Principles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_Principles

The primary focus of policing is to PREVENT crime, and the focus shifting from crime prevention to "law enforcement" has significantly damaged the whole concept almost irrepairably, because THAT, even then, was more the province of the kings troops, whom the citizenry didn't care too much for.

Police in the united states were formed in various different fashions, and all too often were formed out of what in my eyes were criminal enterprises working for the robber barons of the era, the most offensive of which was using Pinkertons murderous strikebreaking goons to form the US Dept of Justice.

In 1871, Congress appropriated $50,000 to the new Department of Justice (DOJ) to form a suborganization devoted to "the detection and prosecution of those guilty of violating federal law." The amount was insufficient for the DOJ to fashion an integral investigating unit, so the DOJ contracted out the services to the Pinkerton National Detective Agency.

However, since passage of the Anti-Pinkerton Act in 1893, federal law has stated that an "individual employed by the Pinkerton Detective Agency, or similar organization, may not be employed by the Government of the United States or the government of the District of Columbia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton_National_Detective_Agency

We're talkin about the same folk who as often as not simply murdered union activists while the law enforcement of the time looked the other way, as the initial core of a federal law enforcement agency, and is it any wonder the apples never did fall far from the tree ?

And just to make sure attention is paid to what I am sayin by the too-lazy-to-click-links folks...
Imma repost Sir Peels Code here.

The Peelian Police Principles
1. The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.
2. The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon the public approval of police actions.
3. Police must secure the willing co-operation of the public in voluntary observation of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.
4. The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.
5. Police seek and preserve public favour not by catering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.
6. Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice, and warning is found to be insufficient.
7. Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions, and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.
9. The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.

==============
THAT, is the essence of good policing, and for a fact, Wayne County Sheriff Warren Evans has that on the back wall of his office... not that any of the other collectives of badge wearing goons around here pay it no mind, alas.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:42 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Mikey is correct, that's always been our beef, that the Taser should be placed just below the service weapon on the use of force continuum.

Thats crazy. I've watched police train.

One thing is that if the cops can put their hands on the bad guy...they bad guy can put his hands on the cop and that leads to one or the other getting hurt. Every time. I will not say to the police...'I want you to put your life at risk in hand to hand combat'. Hand to hand should be the last resort before lethal force.

The choices in a physical confrontation are:
1. Hand to hand
2. Club (their are various kinds)
3. Pepper spray
4. Taser
5. Gun

Pepper spray has the least chance for injury (to the officer) followed by taser, club, hand to hand, and gun. Injury to the officer is the primary concern followed by injury to bystander and injury to the suspect. I will accept injury to the suspect if it avoids injury of the officer. Injury to the bystander is a special issue. Most officers will accept injury to themselves to protect the bystander...I would argue an injured officer cannot protect himself or the bystander while an uninjured officer can render aid to both an injured bystander and an injured suspect. It is unlikely a suspect will aid an injured officer.

Another thing I learned watching training is how fast things move in real life. In real life it takes very little time to walk across a room. It takes very little time for a knife or gun to appear from an unseen location. It takes very little time to wrestle on the ground and suddenly have an officers gun end up being used to kill him.

Not all police forces train like we do. We do skill training followed by scenario training (usually a morning/afternoon combo one day a week for one month/year). Most officers get their basic training and whatever they pick up on their own. We're the only department in this county to mandate ground combat training and scenario training for all officers (including our chief).

I think good training is the key to resolving this issue. We train them as best we can. Then if things go bad...we know that we did all we could to make it right.

With crime rates the way they are...the answer isn't less police force...its better training.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 4:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Oh yes, just in case it strikes anyone odd to see an Anarchist making such statements, thing is, social tranquility is important to us too - and good security leads to tranquility by limiting opportunities for minor conflicts to spiral out of hand into worse.

Remember, I run a security company, and a very effective one, protecting the assets and customers of the client who is paying for that service, and doing it with an absolute minimum of fuss or muss.

Anarchy is not, as some would have you believe, just chaos and disorder, it's simply making decisions based on your own morals and ethics instead of having someone elses thrust upon you by threat of force.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, March 24, 2009 5:03 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Hero, that's what I been saying all along, I got enough issues with their Constitutional Compliance issues and lack of effective oversight or discipline to fill a warehouse, as you're well aware...

But I have stated time and time again the most cost and time effective way to resolve most of the issues is to invest heavily in training, despite howling about the expense - cause you'll get it back on the other end by saving court time, lawsuits, and all too many needless incarcerations from situations a BETTER trained officer could have defused - it's a big glaring flaw that most departments have little or no training on how to defuse or de-escalate a situation before it goes south, and simply HAVING that training would do a great deal towards stifling the locker room jockboy mentality many of them seem to have, because they would learn quickly just how *fast* that shit needlessly escalates a situation.

Hell, I got NO problem with the investment of my tax dime into something like this because of the amount of enforcement costs we'd save at the other end almost immediately - and while I grit my teeth to admit it, not every officer who whips out a Taser does so out of malice, but rather they grab for it when they've run out of options and have no clue what else to do, and THAT is a failure of training, right there.

Marc McYoungs classes would be well worth a large scale investment on behalf of most police departments.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/deescalation.htm

As for how fast a situation can turn ugly and result in someone with a weapon in your face, I am very well aware of that since it's usually me bringing up the Tueller Drill, isn't it?

It's a risk they volunteered, and get paid to take, and proper gear and training mitigate it as much as possible, but in the end, they *volunteered* to take it - and to try shoving it off on us citizens, who did not, is not only an act of cowardice, but ultimately immoral.

That's like a soldier blowing up a house instead of searching it cause he didn't want to take the risk of going in there - only to find out he just wiped out four civvies.

If they are unwilling to take the risks doing the job *requires* - they got no business being cops.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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