REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Quitting Smoking

POSTED BY: WULFENSTAR
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 13:24
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Monday, February 9, 2009 4:40 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So, I quit a while ago, and I took the wussy way out by using the patch. Sorry, but the hallucinations were getting to be too much.

However, even now, months after Ive been "clean", I STILL get nic fits. They arn't as bad as they used to be, and I AM sleeping better...but wtf?

Has anyone else quit? And if so, how long was it until you stopped getting all twitchy anytime you saw someone smoking?

The worst part is that I don't know if I'm actually angry about something, or if Im just going into a nicotine depraved fit.

So a little advice and info would be helpful.


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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:15 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So, I quit a while ago, and I took the wussy way out by using the patch. Sorry, but the hallucinations were getting to be too much.


Yeah...wait till you find out the President is a white guy named "Steve" from Rhode Island.

H

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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:


The worst part is that I don't know if I'm actually angry about something

Dude, why get angry about anything?

Okay, to answer your question, about half of what you're feeling pissy about is the withdrawal.


The laughing Chrisisall

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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:57 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Ok... but its been months since I had ANY nicotine.

GRRRRR


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Monday, February 9, 2009 6:39 AM

PIRATECAT


WS, its people like you that made me lose money on Philip-Morris stock.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Monday, February 9, 2009 7:52 AM

WASHNWEAR


Congratulations! You've made it further than I have lately. I know that some herbal supplements can be helpful. I know from personal experience that theanine (found in green tea) helps to promote a calmer frame of mind...DreamTrove mentioned ginseng and passion flower in another thread.

If there's an established cut-off for the agitation/irritation, I don't know what it is. If you're walking around with just all-around, higher-than-average background disgruntlement (like I often do), I'm sure that plays a part.


It was like that when we got here!

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Monday, February 9, 2009 8:02 AM

STORYMARK


Well, I'm smoking again myself right now, but...

I did quit, using the patch, and stayed quit for several years. I don't recall presicely how long it took before I could be around a smoker without craving one, but I'd guess it was somewhere around 6 months.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, February 9, 2009 8:21 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

DreamTrove mentioned ginseng and passion flower in another thread.


And here's mentioning them again.

Ginseng is a stress reducer (cortisol inhibitor)
Passionflower is a mild MAOI.

Don't take an MAOI if you're on some sort of psyotropic medication.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 9:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


About a year based on seeing my parents and hubby quit. I wish I could say it was less, or easier!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 11:27 AM

TDBROWN


I quit in 2004, as a 50th Birthday Present to myself. I used welbutrin, an anti-depressant and the cheaper version of the prescription drug Zyban. (As mentioned earlier, if you are taking an MAOI drug, this is not for you!)

Unlike the patch, which keeps you addicted to Nicotine (and why it's taking you so long to "calm down"), Welbutrin substitutes for nicotine. The procedure is, you take the pills and keep smoking for a week or so. You will find yourself getting nervous and cranky WHEN YOU SMOKE, instead of the other way around. So you stop smoking.

In my case, I stepped down gradually, going from 2 packs a day to NONE in a period of 14 days. I stopped taking the Welbutrin 5 days after that, and had nervous moments for another week or so. One of the keys is to avoid "Trigger situations". Don't hang out with other smokers until you're comfortable with it. Don't hang out in places where you used to commonly light up. I took the ashtray out of my van, and drove with the windows down until I could "Fabreze" the nicotine away. I stopped sitting on my front porch for over a month, because i used to light up there every evening.

Eventually, you will deal with it. And Congrats that you are making the attempt!

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Monday, February 9, 2009 1:50 PM

DREAMTROVE


be vigilant, watch your relapses, count you cigs per day, and if you can, time in between cigs

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Monday, February 9, 2009 1:53 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


I've got a feeling I'm next on the quitting bandwagon. We set rules when we moved to the new house - no smoking inside, PERIOD!
Since I already don't smoke in the mornings, don't take my smokes to work with me, and don't smoke in the car, my opportunities to smoke are already greatly diminished. I step out back when I get home, then a few more times during the evening. I used to smoke quite a bit while surfing the 'net, just out of habit, boredom, something to do with my hands, etc. Now I'm breaking out of that habit. (Jessica Alba pix help with giving me something to do with my hands. Oh, wait - did I just say that out loud?!)

Anyway, a pack lasts me five or six days now, so I feel like quitting really isn't that far away. I'm bored with smoking.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, February 9, 2009 2:25 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


St Johns Wort is an SSRI antidepressant exactly like Welbutrin and Zyban. Zyban is the "stop smoking" med prescribed by doctors. St Johns Wort is EXTREMELY cheap at Walmart OTC.

SSRIs work by restricting excretion of seratonin from brain, muscles and arteries. Just don't take it in combination with SSRIs unless you enjoy BP spikes.

Sauna sweats out the nicotine stored in fat cells, to eliminate "cravings" from occasional release of nicotine. To prevent heat stroke, drink lots of distilled water with sea salt, or fresh-squeezed organic juice mixed 50/50 with distilled water. The juice adds potassium to prevent dehydration.

Rehab/detox centers like Scientology require 4 hours a day of sauna, with liver flush of 1-cup olive oil and magnesium/calcium. Mag relaxes muscles, Cal contracts them, so Mag is required to relax the gall bladder muscle (with extreme bowel movements). Mag probably relaxes arteries too.

Cayenne pepper also is a powerful vasodilator advised for sauna.

For 1,000s of years Native American "indians" used sauna "medicine lodges" or "sweat lodges" to cure many diseases.

If you enjoy pressure as motivation:

1. A tobacco addict spends $100,000 in cigs in a lifetime (1-pack/day), or $200,000 at 2-packs/day. Double that for Euro due to high taxes.

2. Tobacco Corporations freebase tobacco using baking soda and ammonia (urine), to make it more addiction (ie more profitable).

Quote:

Can cigarettes really be compared to Crack?

I recently met a FDA employed, M.D./Ph.D. at the annual convention for the Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco. I asked this imminently qualified gentleman the following: "What does ammonia do?" He did not know and could only state that ammonia is a base. But my question was overheard by Dr. James Pankow, whom I credit with the epiphany that the modern American cigarette is to tobacco what crack is to cocaine.

Dr. Pankow quickly asked that I call him "Jim" and explained that the basis for the comparison between the modern cigarette and crack cocaine is the chemical process of "free basing," which is accomplished by the additive ammonia. This process is used by most tobacco companies3 and was used by Richard Pryor when he accidentally set himself on fire several years ago.

To understand the chemical process, imagine a birthday party balloon held down with a string. This is like the nicotine molecule in its natural state. This molecule is relatively heavy, and does not evaporate easily. The "freed" nicotine molecule is like the "freed" helium balloon whose string has been cut loose.4 It ultimately "disassociates" from the tobacco upon heating or burning at lower temperatures and in greater amounts. Although simplified, the following explanation of this chemical process is accurate enough for us lay people. A base picks up hydrogen atoms from other molecules. Hydrogen atoms are what "weigh down" the nicotine or cocaine molecules. Ammonia, a base, has the chemical composition NH3, or one nitrogen atom bound to three hydrogen atoms. When ammonia is added to nicotine, ammonia picks up one additional hydrogen atom from the nicotine molecule and becomes NH4.5

The free base process simultaneously matches the PH of the tobacco smoke to the PH of the lungs. Neutral PH is 7.0 which is the PH of water or H2O. PH is the measure of a substance’s relative propensity to take or give away hydrogen atoms. The PH of the lungs is 7.4. (The PH of the mouth is lower or acidic, and thus the reverse process is used for chewing tobacco.) Bioavailability is maximized by matching the PH of the nicotine to the PH of the membranes through which the nicotine must pass before flowing in the bloodstream.6

Richard Pryor understood how to apply Dr. Pankow’s balloon analogy. He free based cocaine by mixing cocaine, ammonia and ether (and some water). The ether rises to the top of the mixture, along with the "freed" cocaine. The NH4 stays below in the water. The cocaine and ether are siphoned off with a spoon and should be left to dry. Although ether has characteristics that make it an effective vehicle to separate the freed cocaine, it is also extremely flammable. In Richard Pryor’s haste and inebriation, he failed to allow the ether to evaporate away by itself and instead accidentally lit the ether and himself.7

Crack, unlike Richard Pryor’s method of free basing cocaine, uses baking soda (also a base) to accomplish the same chemical end result. We’ve all heard that crack is inexpensive, but why? This is because baking soda is much easier to obtain than ammonia and ether. It’s dangerous because it can be mass produced and consumed without the danger of self-pyrolization. But cigarettes with ammonia have one important "advantage," and therefore danger of addiction, over crack. With crack, the user is at the disadvantage of lighting a pipe upon every inhalation. With freed-based nicotine, the smoker conveniently has freely burning tobacco without need for a pipe. Natural tobacco, including pipe and cigar tobacco, does not stay lit. To accomplish the continuously burning cigarette, the cigarette companies have perfected the burn rates of cigarette paper and even "puff" the tobacco with chemically inert substances such as Freon 11.

The civil liability significance of ammonia cannot be overstated. It is ammonia and thus "free basing" that turns heads at the Department of Justice. It may even have been the decisive point in the industry handing over to Mississippi $170 million in the first of perpetual installments.8 It will be interesting to see the eight Liggett group documents that a Florida trial judge ruled must be disclosed under the fraud/crime exception to the attorney-client privilege and without which the state of Florida refuses to settle on otherwise the same terms as Mississippi. The Florida Court of Appeals recently upheld that order to disclose those documents, and thus Florida joined Minnesota and Mississippi in ruling that the lawyers and their tobacco clients were prima facie guilty of fraud and criminal activity.

www.jdlee.com/art2.htm


My little brother the trial lawyer wrote that article. He was paid $350,000 that year for tobacco litigation.

Don't be their slave. Beat the addiction by taking up a new addiction that costs less. Preferably one that's healthy.

Though beware, sports kill 100,000 athletes every year in USA:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9000052717197218681

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Monday, February 9, 2009 2:54 PM

DREAMTROVE


John, get ready for a little friendly fire.

Quote:

St Johns Wort is an SSRI antidepressant exactly like Welbutrin and Zyban.


http://www.biopsychiatry.com/saintjohnswort.html

That's a more decent stab at the mechanism. My point is in a roomful of chemists, you might get this kind of reaction. No one is going to be coming from a position of knowledge all of the time, and when you broadcast that angle with certainty, it bound to head you further from shore. Just saying. I've studied St. John's wort, it's really quite different from an SSRI, the mechanism is


That said, PN is absolutely right. You should not take any pharmaceuticals, I've come up with the cure I keep posting because it works, I've known a lot of people who've quit smoking. But the supplements alone won't help, you also need to be diligent with your diary.

Taking an SSRI for it, that's a bit much. I'm not even sure it would help. But no one should take an SSRI without trying natural anti-depressants first, which not only don't have the side effects but also are much more effective.

5-htp is probably the most potent anti-depressant there is. As for quitting smoking, you also have to be careful because it's a sedative, and a lot of sedative addicts subsist their addiction to unnatural levels by counteracting the sedative with a stimulant. For a cigarette smoker, this might be something as simple as three of four cups of coffee or pepsi, a day. If you cut back on your caffeine intake as well, otherwise you'll suffer tremendous jitters from the overdose of caffeine you're already taking. I've seen this with a number of people, so I thought I'd mention it.


Oh, Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) is an anti-psychotic. I don't care what they call it, check out the mechanism of action. It's not an SSRI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Mechanism_of_action
"Bupropion does not inhibit monoamine oxidase or serotonin reuptake."

I see they call it an "atypical antidepressant." I'd say that an anti-psychotic is atypical in that it's not an anti-depressant. This isn't just a bit much, it's beyond extreme. These drugs cause amnesia and induce a zombie like state. Never ever take them. Even if you're on the brink of a seizure, I'd recommend the toxic Tahitian herb Kava Kava over this. Believe me, I've been there, I think this is a sound choice, Kava is deadly, don't take it for long periods of time. The other will just do damage to your brain, it won't be pleasant. Why do we live in this f^&ked up a society? I mean zombifying drugs everywhere, it's like some evil elite is trying to mind control us... oh yeah, right, that's right, they are. okay...

But try the other stuff, simple and effective. Ginseng and if you need it, passionflower. Remember passionflower is an MAOI and cannot be taken in conjunction with just about anything else. You can take it with ginseng, eleuthero, stuff of that nature, cortisol inhibitors, ie, anti-stress supplements.


oh, another WTF for Bupropion for quitting smoking? That's insane. That's up there with Adderall for ADHD. <-- This one isn't just insane, it's criminally insane.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 4:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Umm, besides the nightmares/hallucinations, which I woulda warned you about* had you mentioned it before now...

The patches are not designed to help you quit, they're designed to keep you addicted, their whole purpose is just to change the pusher of your prefferred dope from the tobacco company to the pharma company, period.

If yer gonna use em at all, the FIRST thing you need to do is put the "plan" through the paper shredder and do what works for YOU - period.

I'd also take into account whether the mental anguish and additional stress are in the end worth it, as one of our ex-cohort wound up committing suicide due to pre-existing issues, and trying to quit was the most likely factor to have pushed her over the edge.

The long-term health benefits can't be denied, but if you drive yourself batshit and wind up on other big-pharma chems in the end you haven't accomplished much.

The only way yer ever gonna do it is to ignore most if not all the advice you get and do WHAT WORKS FOR YOU, it's not simpler than that, which isn't to say it's easy, but it's an internal battle, and you have to look within for victory, not without.

-Frem
*On occasion, in situations where smoking is a dead giveaway or for other reasons a generally bad idea (like driving kids back to their families when the State has placed them as far away as phsyically possible, grrr) I will use the patches, and they do come with nightmares and mild hallucinations - but let's just say that's dropping pebbles on top of a boulder and of little concern to me personally.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 4:57 PM

DREAMTROVE


I'm gonna have to disagree with FREM: Don't wing it. This is generally a bad idea and leads to crashing. I think he's probably right about pharma. But in the addiction treatment area over here, I know what I'm talking about, and I'm not alone. Getting people off smoking is difficult. Not as hard as heroin. Marijuana? Nearly impossible. It's an unpopular stance, for the same reason it's a problem: mj users are virtually unique in the addicted world of thinking that their drug is actually *good* for them. There are a few alcoholics and hardcore addicts who say that, most are lying, and will admit if in private. Rare is the smoker who believes this.

That said, take due caution. If anyone wants help, feel free to contact me. Withdrawal can bring on some radical neurochemical changes. You don't want to just pop some acid and see how it effects your driving by getting on the LA Freeway, it's probably a bad idea to be callous about addiction.

If you don't quit, here are your parting gifts:

1. possibility of lung cancer.
2. Higher probability of Emphysema, which unlike cancer is incurable, and likely to remains so, it's also extremely unpleasant, and also fatal.
3. Even with these, chronic exhaustion, shortness of breath
4. Reaching a geriatric state 14 years sooner than the national average.

But it is something that needs to be done with caution.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:16 PM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Quitting sucks.

But I do agree with Frem, the patch is bad. It DOES just replace one for the other and really doesn't help in the long run.

All it does, is replace the nicotine you'd be getting.

Plus, each cig you smoke has 2 milligrams of nicotine. So, you smoke 10 a day, that's 20 milligrams of nicotine you crave.

Now the patch comes in 7, 14, and 21 milligrams. Which is supposed to equal 7, 10, or 20 cigs a day. Do the math, it doesn't add up.

It just means you end up smoking again.

Dammit, this shit is driving me crazy.

lol

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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:39 PM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Marijuana? Nearly impossible. It's an unpopular stance, for the same reason it's a problem: mj users are virtually unique in the addicted world of thinking that their drug is actually *good* for them.


The reason it's hard for some to give up the Mary Jane is that it's not a physical addiction, therefore those who can't quit are sufering from a mental disorder not addiction. Their brains have a screw loose that causes what appears to be addiction. I once knew an alcoholic that used candy to try and cover the smell of liquor at work. His candy source was kept in another guys locker in the shop where we worked. One day the candy man did'nt show up for work and so his locker had a pad lock on it. The alcoholic dude started worrying about it as soon as he noticed the lock and by lunch time he was trying to talk me into cutting the lock off with a cutting torch. By your reasoning, he was "addicted" to candy. It could have been anything, Pot, Candy, whatever, he was addicted to alcohol, but had a compulsive disorder that made him obsess on candy.

Michael Phelps smokes Pot and he won 14 Gold Medals. It seems obvious the it's not only good for you, but it makes you super human.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 5:57 PM

DREAMTROVE


Kirk

There's not as much physical addiction, it's like frem was saying about warcraft: all carrot no stick. There is some, or there would be no such thing as jonesing.

But there's also a who ganja culture to support it, and it becomes a pseudo religious entity, and therefore, when weed is our god, we lose the ability to criticize. The destructive capability is the time investment, and the loss of anandamide receptors, a loss of anti-carcinogenic properties and a weight control mechanism, plus carcinogenic properties and mostly, long term memory loss.

But the greater disabling part is because the addict does not see the addiction as a problem, and the habit can be all consuming in terms of functional time, the addict becomes unproductive. I was recently with some friends discussing a movie idea, when the weed came out. All thoughts of progress ended for the night, and there were hours of nonsense, ending in a long drawn out fight, followed by a munchie run. Ah, how many times it ends like this.

Long term addicts I've known were hopelessly non-functional, and I've known many. I'd say avg, about 5 IQ points per year for the really heavy users. The good news is it is reversible, the damage, more than alcoholism. The bad news is it takes a long time. Finding a better solution is one of the things that interests me in this area. I have little interest in rising in opposition to use, that's not just a individual issue, it's also a hopeless cause.

[edit] Not that we know of: Phelps won his gold medals, *then* he smoked pot, in that order. That's very easy to do. If he smokes enough, he can deliver pizzas.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 6:00 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Any stimulant causes psychosis as a standard side effect, including, as you admit, tobacco. SSRI and MAOI are stimulants, with side effects of psychosis, suicide and homicide, especially in sudden withdrawal.

Every addiction is classified as insanity by the medical and legal industries, including nicotine addiction, which is the hardest addiction to cure. It's a type of obsessive/culpulsive disorder (OPD). That's why 99% of detox/rehab loonybins make zero attempt at curing that #1 gateway addiction.

A med TV channel had a 1,200-lb blob who lost over 1,000-lbs, then gained it all back. Used a forklift to get him out of the house, after removing a wall. A catscan showed his dopamine levels were lower than normal in his brain, triggering him to eat more than normal people before he felt full. Docs said its the same with addicts, their dopamine levels are too low, so they can't use in moderation. Something has burned out their brains, albeit temporarily. MSG kills brain cells from food. Nicotine does the same. But brain cells grow back if you let them.

So you've got to find your own motivation and gut it out for at least 60 days, to detox most of it out, and reboot your normal levels of neurotransmitters. LEARN HOW TO EAT HEALTHY! Then DO it, every day. Alkalize or die.

Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
John, get ready for a little friendly fire.

Quote:

St Johns Wort is an SSRI antidepressant exactly like Welbutrin and Zyban.


http://www.biopsychiatry.com/saintjohnswort.html

That's a more decent stab at the mechanism.

Oh, Bupropion (Wellbutrin, Zyban) is an anti-psychotic. I don't care what they call it, check out the mechanism of action. It's not an SSRI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupropion#Mechanism_of_action


I was running on memory. MAOI is what PDR warns don't mix with other vasoconstrictors (St Johns Wort). Just don't mix them, if you want to live.

I can't take any vasoconstrictors due to kidney damage acting as a vasoconstrictor. Very bizarre since I can't even get buzzed on alcohol, which is a stimulant, aka vasoconstrictor that increases seratonin (in moderate doses). There's no doctor alive who can explain my symptoms, including my own doctors. They say they just "don't know" (or don't care), but that "they've never seen a cure". But they didn't refund my money.

Standard side effect of MAOI meds is inability to orgasm for both men and women, due to vasoconstriction blocking relaxation of blood vessels. Maybe experiment with cayenne when the mood is right?

I have to eat cayenne 10 times a day. Too bad I'm not having sex that often...

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Monday, February 9, 2009 6:03 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I smoked heavily for about twelve years, and by heavily I mean at least two packs a day of unfiltered Camels or Lucky Strike.

I quit cold turkey on November 21, 1981, so that makes over twenty-seven years without a smoke. I can't say it was easy, I did have nightmares about smoking a cigarette that I couldn't put out. Plus, my wife was still smoking at the time. I can't remember the time frame right now, but I would guess it was close to a year before it didn't bother me anymore.

I don't have any secrets to impart, only that I promised myself I would never even touch another cigarette much less smoke it, and I've been able to keep that promise. If I can do it, anyone can.

Good luck.



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Monday, February 9, 2009 6:38 PM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:


Any stimulant causes psychosis as a standard side effect, including, as you admit, tobacco. SSRI and MAOI are stimulants, with side effects of psychosis, suicide and homicide, especially in sudden withdrawal.



an ssri is not technically a stim. an SNRI would have a stim effect, even if it's not a receptor agonist. an ssri, straight, would have a sedative effect, and pretty radically reduce psychosis through ST-DP competition.

an maoi is usually classified as a sedative because it stops/slows the rate of metabolism, decreasing the norep/adrenal end products.

SSRIs can cause suicide mostly through serotonin depletion, which is a high danger, and the reason I say never take them, but yes, it does happen on withdrawal.

Quote:


Every addiction is classified as insanity by the medical and legal industries, including nicotine addiction, which is the hardest addiction to cure. It's a type of obsessive/culpulsive disorder (OPD). That's why 99% of detox/rehab loonybins make zero attempt at curing that #1 gateway addiction.



It's difficult that I grant, but it's nothing compared with opiate addiction. Having dealt with a number of each of these, I can tell you... A heroin addict is very close to hopeless. It's physically harder than cigarettes, and has similar same psych problems to mj. Nicotine does have some similarities to OCD, but it's not the same thing.

Quote:

A med TV channel had a 1,200-lb blob who lost over 1,000-lbs, then gained it all back. Used a forklift to get him out of the house, after removing a wall. A catscan showed his dopamine levels were lower than normal in his brain, triggering him to eat more than normal people before he felt full.


Lower than normal? I'd say damn near zero. This is the sort of story that needs a link. I don't believe in the 1200 to 200 to 1200 weight shift. I think it would kill an elephant. You're right on the trend. ST dominance causes weight gain. That happens in the gut, which uses ST and DP to determine fat intake, metabolic rates etc.

Quote:

Docs said its the same with addicts, their dopamine levels are too low, so they can't use in moderation. Something has burned out their brains, albeit temporarily. MSG kills brain cells from food. Nicotine does the same. But brain cells grow back if you let them.


Depends a lot on the circumstances. DP levels can be very high in some addicts, esp. in withdrawal, when that cortisol kicks the the phenylalanine-choline chain into action, those dopa and norep levels can go through the roof. Have a nice side effect of histamine overload as well, making you allergic to that.

For anyone listening, nature's anti-histamine is chamomile, something you definitely want to resort to when you find yourself getting rashes from soap or giant mosquito bite swells.

Quote:

So you've got to find your own motivation and gut it out for at least 60 days, to detox most of it out, and reboot your normal levels of neurotransmitters.


Ooh, so much easier said than done. I'd say carefully, carefully step by step. You go out of balance in one direction for too long you're going to radically effect receptor count, that can cause a feedback loop that limits production. This sort of thing can be very difficult to correct.

Quote:

I was running on memory.


So was I, and my memory is pretty poor, so I looked up the links, the rant part I knew. But for me this stuff is home turf.

Quote:

MAOI is what PDR warns don't mix with other vasoconstrictors (St Johns Wort). Just don't mix them, if you want to live.


Yes, don't mix maoi with anything, except a cortisol inhibitor, and a few other mild things, but almost any pharma which isn't itself an maoi says don't. This is because maoi is monoamine oxidase inhibitor, and this is the metabolic process by which midstate NTs are moved to end product, which they often are because of a build up of the mid product. Still, it's generally recommended for nicotine reduction. No more than 4/day on the passion flower.

Quote:

I can't take any vasoconstrictors due to kidney damage acting as a vasoconstrictor. Very bizarre since I can't even get buzzed on alcohol, which is a stimulant, aka vasoconstrictor that increases seratonin (in moderate doses). There's no doctor alive who can explain my symptoms, including my own doctors. They say they just "don't know" (or don't care), but that "they've never seen a cure".


Alcohol acts as a gaba promoter, by reactivating the gaba. there are some ion channel theories here, which are also gaba related, and many alcohols contain gaba precursors. Gaba is the universal natural sedative in your system, and almost all sedatives worth through it. Alcohol is a classic natural sedative, not a stimulant, that's why it causes ataxia, and not mania.

It's possible to experience what's called a 'paradoxical reaction' to any psychoactive compound. This happens when the body releases a counter agent to the drug you've taken, which would counter act the effect, a normal form of resistance, but when it over-releases the counter agent, or the counter agent has a longer halflife, then it can create the reverse reaction from the chemical mechanism of the drug. It's rare, but it does happen.

Quote:

But they didn't refund my money.


lol. Not even if they kill you.

Quote:

Standard side effect of MAOI meds is inability to orgasm for both men and women, due to vasoconstriction blocking relaxation of blood vessels. Maybe experiment with cayenne when the mood is right?


just working from memory cayenne is a bioperine relative, which means it increases uptake. Everything in this family has an effect dependent on what you take it with. In general, I tend not to use bioperines. I don't want to interfere with uptake levels. If I knew specifically that something was not being taken up into the system, and pro-biotics were not helping, I would, and I have, but it's not my first choice.

Quote:

I have to eat cayenne 10 times a day. Too bad I'm not having sex that often...


Hmm. I find your regimen a little worrisome, from some of the posts you have put here, over time. There's a lot of stuff that you've put up that I don't buy into. I think analyzing what's wrong with you would take some research, research you should do, I'll lend a hand if you want.

My favorite single line on this was from a doc who said "Before considering taking anything as a possible remedy for any health problem you have, always closely examine everything you're already taking and make absolutely sure that it is not causing or exacerbating the problem."

Early on, from your first posts, and though today, you've always struck me as having a very low level of probiotics, something that I've commented on more than a couple times over the years. If you're really taking that much cayenne pepper, that would explain it. Also if you were on some broad spectrum antibiotic, or any long term antibiotic.

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Monday, February 9, 2009 7:19 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Welbutrin is prescribed for ADD, which requires a stimulant. The key is dosage, it must be a tiny dose, with timed release. My theory is a stimulant is required because of restriction of arteries in the brain, to TEMPORARILY increase the supply of neurotransmitters. But this ALWAYS makes it worse in the long run, to use a vasoconstrictor that clogs arteries even more. CURE is to relax the arteries, and unclog them from calcification/cholesterol deposits. The nthe brain can work likes it's sposed to.



Patrick Deuel: Half Ton Man on TLC TV - Catscan shows low dopamine
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-162531092497573171
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Deuel

The TV show included Michael Hebranko, who lost 700 lbs, from 907 to 198 lbs and appeared on Wogan TV. Seven years later, he weighed 1,100 lbs. His face looked anorexic and insane, then Jabba The Hut insane. They used stretcher designed for transporting killer whales, after knocking down his wall to reach his bed. His wife WANTED him fat, to keep other women away, so she did everything she could to get him fat again. 22 hotdogs for dinner...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hebranko

The TV show included Rosalie Bradford, who lost 917 lbs. She reached a peak weight of 1,199 lb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalie_Bradford

These shows NEVER mention MSG, especially not causing brain damage. Don't want to scare the advertisers. Patrick Deuel is shown eating KFC, which invented MSG as its "secret ingredient".

Keeps mentioning CHIPS, "I'll rip you to shreds" if he don't get his fix of MSG.

And CASES of Diet Coke (aspartame excitoxin).
www.sweetpoison.com/aspartame-information.html

Lied about eating a "normal diet", but it takes 15,000 calories a day to be that big.

His wife is the classic co-dependent to feed his addiction, along with hers.

Quote:

"The desire to eat is greater than the will to live."


Half-ton man loses 573 pounds in one year
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8357654/

How their families keep bringing them food is insane. Once you're too big to leave the house, that ought to be a natual limit to gathering more food for overdose.

Quote:

Deuel weighed 1,072 pounds in 2004, and in order for him to have lifesaving gastric bypass surgery, a bedroom wall had to be cut out so he could be extracted from his home in Valentine.

After getting down to 370 pounds in late 2006, he was up to 540 in May, the last time he stepped on a scale.

The former restaurant manager said he definitely won't work in food service again.

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,404225,00.html


The moral of the fat stories is to quit an addiction, stay away from other insane addicts. That's the REAL challenge.

And he's a smoker...

And what the hell is a stone?



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Monday, February 9, 2009 8:10 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Sadly, I cannot be of any assistance on the neurochemical end of things - since most of the broken folk I deal with have issues that are quite severely iatrogenic, which means there's *no* possibility of conventional methods, most often due to a lack of trust since those were the very folk who broke them in the first place.

Really, wouldn't being railroaded into what amounts to a concentration camp for normal teen behavior on the advice of such "experts" make YOU not trust them, their drugs and their methods ?

The only thing close to 'medication' we use is catnip tea with a peppermint stick and some honey in it, which is a mild calmative and in this combination surprisingly effective against PTSD and related anxiety issues, especially in combination with a neutral, quiet environment.

The Peace room has a 60 minute loop of very quiet rainfall mixed with celtharp/panflute and is dark/neutral colored with adjustable indirect lighting.

The psychological effect of that combination is so proportional, that even years after their issues have been resolved - when someone is having a bad day, simply handing them a peppermint (from my copious pocket candy reserves) can induce the whole effect at once just by scent-memory, since it's one of the most base and primitive senses and very memory specific.

I suppose you could try something of the sort, Wulf, given that you have issues unrelated to smoking that are making this much more difficult for you than it would otherwise be - and achieving an inner peace by removing the "white noise" of stress/anxiety/anger would assist your own native willpower in suppressing the withdrawl symptoms on a mental level, just make sure to have someone come collect you after a while if you do...

We've noticed that someone with heavy issues, once they reach that state, will lose all track of time and several hours will pass without them even noticing.

On the chem/physical level I might not be any help, but I do know how to help someone clear the way to fight their internal battles at even odds or better, that I can assist with.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, February 9, 2009 11:58 PM

SIGMANUNKI


I made it cold turkey... wasn't fun. But, it made both me and the people around me lives hell for over 2 months. It took some time for the frequency of the nic fits to quell. Sorry, but if you are anything like me, it'll taper off slowly. It's also funny you mention this now, as I just noticed that smoke no longer smells good (it's been over a decade since I quite).

The thing that you have to remember is that smoking is actually two things, a nicotine addiction and a habit. The former is done and over with within a week. The latter on the other hand is the nasty one. What you're dealing with now is behavioural not physical. It sucks, but creating new habits or just resisting is the only way to deal with it.

(Note: The above is the reason why I am amused and frustrated with the commercials where people say, "I had more than a habit, I had a nicotine addiction." It's nothing but misleading marketing.)

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:58 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Try American Spirit brand of organic tobacco, no freebasing by ammonia, so far less addictive, and thus easier to quit. Available in your local tobacco stores or online. First carton is free:


www.nascigs.com

Or dope your own tobacco using drops of white vinegar in the filter, to neutralize pH of the alkaline freebased ammonia.

Ask yourself what it is you are denying yourself in order to pay for tobacco and smoke tobacco? Stop denying yourself and just DO IT! Buy yourself a hooker if you have to (then you won't be able to afford tobacco).

Don't worry about acting nutty during withdrawal. You already do that 20 times everyday anyway. Trust me, nonsmokers around you notice your ADD and psychosis every day, except while smoking 6,000 poisons.

As stripper Susan Powter says on TV: STOP THE INSANITY!

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:16 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


Frem, what the HELL do you do for a living? Lol It sounds like you work for one of those agencies that "deprogram" people after they've fallen in with a cult...

PM me about it, if you want.

In any case, I have noticed there is a difference with American Spirits. But what they do, is up the amount of tobacco in each cig to boost the nicotine to the levels of their competitors.

(By the by, if tobacco kills as many people a year as I've read....then the Native Americans, and Incans, have surely gotten their revenge.)

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:26 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

(By the by, if tobacco kills as many people a year as I've read....then the Native Americans, and Incans, have surely gotten their revenge.)


Good point. Ha.

Problem is, my wife is part Oneida Injun, mostly German, and she's heavily addicted to tobacco.

Perhaps the European DNA has a defect allowing addiction to nicotine, which Native DNA has outgrown?

Native DNA lacks an enzyme to digest Fire Water, as all Asians have a problem with, exploited by the European invaders.

But at least the Tobacco Holocaust got revenge. The score is probably even at about 50-million dead on each side of the war.

Then again, it's the Jews using their divide and conquer tactic, pitting Natives against the Euros in the Alcohol & Tobacco Wars, while running black slaves (and white slaves too). Stupid goyim.

Stop being a slave of the Jews, who "discovered" tobacco for enslaving the Western world, and who run Big Tobacco today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_law_and_history_on_smoking

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:43 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Don't quit - keep smoking. Seriously, life is way too short either way to deny yourself the pleasures of nicotine. Can you imagine Beer without his buddy nicotine? Coffee without a long drag on a smokie treat? Why you want to break them up? Where's the sense in living longer if you're going to live worse? You know what gets you out of bed in the morning isn't so you can have breakfast and go to work - it's so you can have the first smoke of the day. And what's the first thing you look forward to when you get home from work - right! Listen to your smarter brain tobacco is made by Mother Nature, it's natural, don't give into social pressures.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 7:07 AM

FREMDFIRMA


I run a small security company that focuses on non gated light residential and industrial park after-hours coverage, with well trained, unarmed guards and a high degree of respect for and adherence to, Night Watchman traditions.

And have a significant interest in a NY based steel company.

With some precious metal and uncut stone investments, which are usually purchased or traded in a a fashion that allows me to clout an extra buck off currency differences.


The part that's wiggin you out is actually volunteer work.
I mentioned before that me and some others started going after those damned camps before we were even out of high school, and went from crowbars to cameras as our efforts matured in nature and focus.

Well, think about the fate of those poor kids once you've pulled em out of such a hellhole, you cannot take them to a therapist, they'll totally freak the heck out, given how they wound up there in the first place - and having usually been initially given psychoactive drugs that not only didn't help them, but contributed to screwing them up badly enough to justify being sent off somewhere, or as a control mechanism, to even suggest it would send em berserk, right ?

So you wind up having removed them from the environment that caused it, but you still wind up with someone very traumatised, usually harboring a bad case of PTSD and associated satellite anxiety disorders, who often cannot function in normal life - and NO treatment options possible from conventional medicine, since it's one of the root factors of the cause.

And without *some* kind of intervention most of them will commit suicide.

Actually they seem to have finally gotten around to properly classifying this more accurately a decade and so later than they should.
http://www.sasian.org/papers/cptsd.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_disorder
http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/herman.html

They lose all sense of self, and although you might have rescued them physically their own mind has trapped them into that cycle of suffering even when the primary stimulus is removed, the very defenses of the mind attempting to protect them become a form of secondary self-abuse, and this is very difficult to handle, especially without medication to suppress the symptoms which we do not have access to and they would not trust if we did.

And so, lacking anything but the desperate need to help these folk, a method was developed to help them cope and overcome (which was *not* easy and does not always work, mind you) based on how C-PTSD works.

First, the "rescue", the offered hand - PTSD/C-PSTD is marked in particular by a lack of trust in anything or anyone, but there's a mental loophole in "seeking rescue" that can be used to bypass this by playing to internal wish-fulfilment, that's *WHY* the offered hand is so important, and MUST come from someone they do not know, an "outsider" that their mind cannot file as associated with their abusers.

Then a structured, stable, "safe" environment and lots of time, combined with a form of attachment therapy as being part of a larger whole, as they get better helping others who are in worse shape, and unlike conventional treatment models we do incorporate the need for retaliation instead of trapping them further by demanding they forgive, cause the option exists to strike back by helping others and removing if possible, the ability of their abusers to continue harming others.

Once they reach a point where they can function in a more or less normal life, we encourage them quite strongly to go do just that, but some of them want to continue assisting others voluntarily, or even step up into taking action themselves - and if they can prove the ability to handle it, then they do so.

And those that continue generally offer help and resources to assist the process, based on what they do for a living - one lady runs a catering business and never has to worry about what to do with the leftovers, leading to a couple running gags about wedding cake in the office.
The Minivan used in TX was a loaner from a guy who runs a rental company franchise, as another example.
(Golden Rope Program, that one)

Even many of those slowly manage to let it go, and are encouraged to do so, as there's always more to take up the banner, who have a deep seated perceived "need" to do so in efforts to tackle their own internal issues.

It's not in essence, a large scale thing, but as this has been going on for nearly two decades, there's a lotta folk who can throw a favor or two if needs be, and enough to run a small office - we make sure never to run close or strain our resources, but most of what you need to help these folk isn't something money can buy, it's time, and time spent in a safe, structured environment with solid rules* they can use as a foundation to rebuild their sense of self.

*As an Anarchist, I'm not big on rules, but there's a certain comfort to ritual/tradition as a mental bedrock for many folk, and we incorporate that to a significant degree as something they can mentally put their back against and trust to be there, and as a channel to both limit and control potential OCD behaviors that can otherwise become aberrant.

That's a real stripped down and simple explaination, but if you really wanna understand it, you gotta hear it from the folks who wind up needing that kind of help.
http://www.teenliberty.org/Voices.htm

Just imagine this happening to you.

On April 24, 1998, a teenage girl was dragged, screaming in terror, from the sidewalk on East 71st Street in New York City by three men and a woman. She had just left school for the day. She was dragged toward a black sedan with dark tinted windows that obscured a view of the inside. Still screaming, she tried to call for help from people passing on the street.

People, startled by this violence, stopped to watch but no one tried to help the teen. As a crowd gathered, the girl was pulled toward the car. She tried to hold on to a black rod iron fence in front of a brownstown, then tried to hold onto the top of the car as the three men and the woman pushed her into the back seat. Her screams brought neighbors on this upper east side street to their windows. One was the U.S. features editor for the London Times. He ran down to try and help her.

Several friends of the girl, standing to the side of the crowd, were weeping. When the reporter, aghast, tried to find out what was happening, he was told by the crying teens that it was "an intervention."

He called it an abduction. A police officer who appeared as the young girl was forcefully shoved into the car stood to the side watching as the door slammed shut and the car sped off. The reporter took down the license number, tracked down the abductors - an "escort" service - and traced the girl to a behavior modification facility in upstate New York.


And followed up with forced medication, restraints, isolation, even outright physical and sexual abuse.

Every day, right here in america - because minors are considered less than human by our laws and society.

And I'll have none of it, in fact, we are re-introducing the rather ironically numbered H.R. 911 bill tomorrow with the help of Congressman George Miller.
http://www.caica.org/GAO.htm

So put the arm on your reps, a phone call or letter costs you very little, and while no great fan of Government, until we can convince society that kids are human beings, it's the only viable option we have at this time.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:50 AM

DREAMTROVE


FREM, you don't need to be a kid to have this experience. Try homeland security at some point, or the "mental health" establishment.

Re: suicidal cases, etc. There are a host of supplements you could use to help with these cases that are cheap and effective.

Not all of the child's issues came from their detention, rather odds favor that their already erratic behavior was a symptom of an ongoing issue. The kids I dealt with often had pre-existing issues from home abuse, and drug abuse, and the latter can lead to chemical imbalances. The best way to deal with this is supplements, which I would say differ from drugs not in being otc herbals, but in being essentially foods. There are a number of otc herbals which are drug-like in their behavior, and are to be used with extreme caution if at all. (Like Kava, something I would only recommend to people with a seizure issue or serious paranoid delusions, and not to be used long term.)

I only mention this because you mentioned potential suicides. As long as you're not making the assumption that the kids were 'okay' prior to their abduction (I assume by the state) and the assumption that all issues are psychological. I'd hazard a guess that the kids had issues that the education system did not know how to deal with given their extremely limited resources and understanding. Doesn't mean there were no issues.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh believe me, all too many of those kids wind up in those places as a casualty of their PARENTS issues, which bleed over onto them and screw em up as well, and the school system doesn't help.

And no, most of these abductions are actually carried out by private firms contracted by the parents in co-ordination with the damn camps.

Want Your Kid to Disappear?
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/July-August-2004/feature_labi_julau
g04.msp


Run by folks like Rick Strawn, whom I suspect of some involvement of the events that lead to the suicide death of Valerie Ann Heron.
http://www.antiwwasp.com/wwasp-news/1-wwasp-news/85-rick-strawn-transp
orter.html


We have on occasion run afoul of them, and even more rarely wound up in confrontation - as the camp pays them its cut (and a chunky commission) only upon delivery - and being not a regulated industry with no oversight in a legally murky realm of operation, will not simply stand down if confronted.

This has lead to a handful of rather infamous events when other family members have engaged us, and wound up in an on-site confrontation, or even worse, an intercept, either of which can be a legal nightmare for all involved.

I always try to take someone with me if that potential exists, both as an additional witness, and because if I happen to catch one of these guys in a non-public place there's a temptation to engage in some very unprofessional conduct without some voice of reason present.

As for pre-existing issues, that's downright obvious, however the scale on that seems to slide from anything as small as a stubborn personality, all the way to the other end, like the kid who's disassociation was actually mild epilepsy.

But another reason to avoid chems is that we have *no* idea what's been used on these kids, and it's our experience that so-called mental health professionals are as like as not to lie through their teeth on any official paperwork concerning such.

If once they reach some internal equilibrium THEN problems show up with could be related to chemical imbalances, then we get behind them and assist in their own research and troubleshooting on their own terms - and if it comes to a point where an accredited professional needs to get involved and they are willing to take that route, we send them with a token same-sex honor guard so that they feel safe.

But you HAVE to make it THEIR decision, cause of how most of em wound up here... it won't work any other way, you understand.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:27 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


So whats the answer?

Can't control the basturds who breed, and shouldn't control them once they pop out the child.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:47 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Simple, force society (or at least the law) to acknowledge that children are people, human beings - rather than some level of property vaguely below livestock in legal standing.

Barring that, regulating these places as the bill above does will kill off most of the more serious problems almost instantly, in fact most of the folk behind them will flee the country.

Of course, that'll substantially impact Romney's campaign war chest, but given how he got it, I ain't gonna cry over that much, neither.

-Frem

PS. You really should try the catnip tea W/peppermint stick and honey in a quiet-room, while it wouldn't have any effect on your physical cravings, it will prolly help a lot with the issues that magnify their impact on you.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 12:30 PM

DARKJESTER


I gotta disagree with Frem and Wulf, it was patches that finally let me quit.

Smoking does have two parts, the nicotine addiction and the habit. The patch lets you break the habit (lighting up when you wake up, lighting up after that first cup of coffee, lighting up after supper, etc.) while giving you a HIGHER dose of nicotine than you are used to, making the addiction part fade into the background. Then when the habit of lighting up (and holding a cigarette too) is gone, or at least lessened, you start stepping down the nicotine levels. At least, that's how it helped me. Took about 4 months to stop using the patches, and about 3 more months before I stopped having occasional cravings.

One other thing that helped - I kept telling myself that I wasn't a smoker any more. Didn't matter if and when I wanted a cigarette, I didn't smoke.

I quit over 7 years ago, and I still occasionally miss it. You know how you can dream of sex when you've gone a long time without? I STILL sometimes dream of smoking! But at least it's not a craving anymore. More like remembering a favorite dish your mom made when you were a child.


MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 1:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I never smoked cigarettes.



It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager


" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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