REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Islam in Europe

POSTED BY: FUTUREMRSFILLION
UPDATED: Thursday, August 29, 2013 14:09
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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:05 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=33c_1187358686

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original



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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:59 PM

FREDGIBLET


That guy kicks ass, who is he?

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:12 PM

TPAGE


He's got a profile on YouTube which you can subscribe to. You should check out his other videos.

He's against just about every religion there is and frankly I find most of the videos funny yet true.

I encourage you to check him out:





And if someday on some little piss-ant moon/My hand is a little too slow, or my aim a little bit off/At least I’ll go down fighting, not lying abed surrounded by quacks - "Sir Warrick" by Geezer

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Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Ya know, somehow - I told you so - just doesn't quite say it.


I couldn't agree more. Well said.







People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, September 21, 2007 1:17 AM

MAZAEN


Interesting view that many people don't value their own culture anymore. Maybe he's jelous that muslims do what other cultures can't. Muslims can continue to value their own culture when living in a western world when every other culture sells themselves out.

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Friday, September 21, 2007 2:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by mazaen:
Interesting view that many people don't value their own culture anymore. Maybe he's jelous that muslims do what other cultures can't. Muslims can continue to value their own culture when living in a western world when every other culture sells themselves out.



Muslims continue to value their own culture when living in a western world BECAUSE HERE IN THE WEST, WE DON'T MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO SO . Try going to Saudia Arabia or Iran and openly living a Christian life, carrying around a Bible to and from Sunday mass.

Good luck w/ that.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, January 11, 2009 8:13 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


British Cops Running From Protesters Screaming Allah-Akbar


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Monday, January 12, 2009 12:03 AM

PIRATECAT


Michael Caine here is right on. Now if you listen to him very closely he is a liberal. A pro gay, woman, and anti religious world citizen. But his rights to freedom is being squashed. Now this is why you can't deal with Islam there is no bridge to build with them. You could see this in the 80s coming. Yes its coming to America. Remember the cabby in Minnesota who wouldn't take the dude at the airport home because he had a bottle a wine with him. Europe is spineless but this time America will not come to their aid. I will be anti war protester against jolly ole england when they beg America to bail them out. You wanted it you got it.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Monday, January 12, 2009 1:14 AM

PIRATECAT


Jayneztown, yep them cops are scared man are they scared. Let them protesters do that in Pittsburgh the cops will run em out of there. Did you see the white liberal chic at the front with the orange on. "We don't need this", We like she's one of them. Come on honey your just what Stalin called a useful idiot. Probalbly a upper middle class english upbringing with a distent father. She's got her self lost in something she has no idea how evil it is and doesn't care. England is so weak now. Multiculturalism its just great.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Monday, January 12, 2009 2:38 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Muslims continue to value their own culture when living in a western world BECAUSE HERE IN THE WEST, WE DON'T MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO SO . Try going to Saudia Arabia or Iran and openly living a Christian life, carrying around a Bible to and from Sunday mass.

Good luck w/ that.



So what exactly are you trying to say? Just stating facts really loudly or is there a point to this? Should The West stop? Is this a commendable thing? What are you trying to say?




I live in Europe, and I think the vast majority of problems to do with muslim immigrants are the kind that always arise when immigration is handled poorly. Things to do with poverty and not learning the language of the new country and such.

Pretending that religious and cultural differences are the biggest problem and the root of the current conflicts seems kind of short-sighted.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 3:37 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


It seems to me that Western condescension has gotten out of hand in Europe and it’s on its way to getting that way in the US. The idea seems to be that racism, religious intolerance or sexism are all bad things, unless they are being directed externally towards the Western culture. Western condescension is a contradiction of western values of enlightenment. The very values that the Western pundits chide themselves on not implementing enough are then excused in the name of those values just because the people in question are white or European or Christian or American. We see the same type of attitude in the US, when we deny a white girl entry in to a college she has applied and qualified for to give that position to a less qualified black person in the name of racial tolerance. It’s interesting that if you take the whole affirmative action thing and you switch the colors – it suddenly becomes KKK propaganda. Western condescension is a problem and in the future we are going to look back on this and regret it, just as we look back on racism, sexism and fascism and regret it. We can only hope that we will take action to correct it before it becomes as big a regret.



Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:27 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

Interesting view that many people don't value their own culture anymore. Maybe he's jelous that muslims do what other cultures can't. Muslims can continue to value their own culture when living in a western world when every other culture sells themselves out.


European culture is being squashed, using an absurd argument blaming it for WWII, rather than blaming socialism and corporate greed. But it's not being squashed by Muslims. Its being squashed by the EU at the moment, a far bigger threat than islam.

People are only seeing the shadows on the wall here. The importation of muslims was intentional by the EU for two reasons: 1) it creates a cheap labor source, and 2) it creates resentment, and the globalist powers have been having some trouble getting Europe into the GWOT, and so these absurd policies are more to create that resentment than to appease Islam.

Iran, also, does not equal Saudi Arabia. That's ridiculous. It's like comparing Castro to Pol Pot on the grounds that both are communists.

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Monday, January 12, 2009 4:34 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


This guy is great. Enough is enough. So many good lines... "we did that already, it was called The Inquisition." Enough with the religious apologists, who's country are you living in anyway?

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:29 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

All homosexuals should be stoned to death, says Muslim preacher of hate

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163510/All-homosexuals-stoned
-death-says-Muslim-preacher-hate.html




I want to see flag of Allah flying over Downing St

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23661857-details/articl
e.do?ito=newsnow
&

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:42 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Quote:

All homosexuals should be stoned to death, says Muslim preacher of hate

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1163510/All-homosexuals-stoned
-death-says-Muslim-preacher-hate.html




I want to see flag of Allah flying over Downing St

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23661857-details/articl
e.do?ito=newsnow
&




Funny guy, great lines:

"Anjem Choudary said he wanted the “flag of Allah” flying over Downing Street, all women wearing burkas and caning for drunkenness."

They don't make that many canes...

"Mr Choudary, a 41-year-old lawyer, said he was proud to be reviled. “It's inevitable that when you offer an alternative morality and way of life many people will hate you for it.”"

It's inevitable mostly if your option sucks.

“Every woman, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, would have to wear a traditional burka and cover everything apart from her face and hands in public.”

Time to back up the truck, he's already got the white outfit...

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:55 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
Let them protesters do that in Pittsburgh the cops will run em out of there. Did you see the white liberal chic at the front with the orange on. "We don't need this", We like she's one of them. Come on honey your just what Stalin called a useful idiot. Probalbly a upper middle class english upbringing with a distent father. She's got her self lost in something she has no idea how evil it is and doesn't care.


It already happens here, and will likely come to Pittsburgh in time as well. During the recent Mideast conflict there were numerous protest sites in South Florida including Univ. of Miami, and downtown Ft. Lauderdale. There they were, Muslim Jihad-terror supporters holding the most vile & disgusting signs you can imagine, and no one did squat about it. If anything, the police provided protection for these sick bastards. My tax dollars hard at work protecting people advocating Death To America, Death To Jews, and Death To Freedom. Isn't that just so special!? Freedom of speech is one thing, but vulgar taunting and hateful threats are another. I guess for the liberal middle-class white college girls acting as useful idiots for the Jihad cause, it's the closest thing to a Charles Manson Family they can find. Yanno, anything to piss off mum and daddy.

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:16 AM

PIRATECAT


JS, where ya bin. I saw video on what your talking about. The police in any liberal area are not on your side. I live in Tucson now these cops are just tax collectors. There after the sherriff up in Phoenix for doing his job.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:28 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
JS, where ya bin. I saw video on what your talking about. The police in any liberal area are not on your side. I live in Tucson now these cops are just tax collectors. There after the sherriff up in Phoenix for doing his job.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".


Don't post much anymore PC, but I do read the threads now and then.

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 9:44 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Quote:



I want to see flag of Allah flying over Downing St







And what was the U.S. Presidents middle name again?

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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

My tax dollars hard at work protecting people advocating Death To America, Death To Jews, and Death To Freedom. Isn't that just so special!? Freedom of speech is one thing, but vulgar taunting and hateful threats are another.


Yeah, your tax dollars SHOULD be protecting people advocating Death to Islam, Death to Iran, and Death to Palestinians, right?. And by "freedom of speech" and "hateful threats", do you mean things like being free to wear a t-shirt that says "Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out!"?

Just curious.

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime


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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:49 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
JS, where ya bin. I saw video on what your talking about. The police in any liberal area are not on your side. I live in Tucson now these cops are just tax collectors. There after the sherriff up in Phoenix for doing his job.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".



"That, my friends, was authentic Frontier-American gibberish."
- Olson Johnson, Blazing Saddles

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime


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Tuesday, March 31, 2009 5:47 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by mazaen:
Interesting view that many people don't value their own culture anymore. Maybe he's jelous that muslims do what other cultures can't. Muslims can continue to value their own culture when living in a western world when every other culture sells themselves out.



Muslims continue to value their own culture when living in a western world BECAUSE HERE IN THE WEST, WE DON'T MAKE IT ILLEGAL FOR THEM TO DO SO . Try going to Saudia Arabia or Iran and openly living a Christian life, carrying around a Bible to and from Sunday mass.

Good luck w/ that.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "




Ironically, you COULD do that in Iraq - until we invaded it and turned it into a sectarian hell-hole.

Anyone remember Tariq Aziz? Yeah, he was a Christian, openly so, in Saddam's regime.

Mike

just lying smiling in the dark
shooting stars around your heart
dreams come bouncing in your head
pure and simple everytime
now you're crying in your sleep
i wish you'd never learnt to weep
don't sell the dreams you should be keeping
pure and simple everytime


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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 12:42 AM

PIRATECAT


Kwicko your brains are in your ass, Why don't you travel and wake the fuck up you jackass. No wonder your mother dumped you as a kid.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:25 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
Kwicko your brains are in your ass, Why don't you wake the fuck up you jackass.


You flatter him by implying he has brains. And by the way PC, be wwery, wwery careful not to post anything that portrays Muslim Jihadist murderers in a negative way. You wouldn't want to offend any of their freedom-fighting kindred spirits on this board. Good luck!

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Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:53 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
Kwicko your brains are in your ass, Why don't you travel and wake the fuck up you jackass. No wonder your mother dumped you as a kid.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".



D+

Needs improvement.

In all your travels, did you never learn to read and write?


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Saturday, April 4, 2009 7:35 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


BBC accused of 'appeasing Muslim fanatics'

Mohammed cartoonist accuses BBC of 'appeasing Muslim fanatics by not showing interview'
By Paul Revoir
Last updated at 8:31 AM on 03rd April 2009

The BBC has been accused of appeasement of radical Islam by the artist behind one of the infamous cartoons of Mohammed.

Kurt Westergaard claims the corporation's decision not to air a recent interview with him came because they are petrified of upsetting Muslims extremists.
Westergaard was one of the 12 cartoonists commissioned by the Danish Jyllands-Posten newspaper in 2005 to produce caricatures of the Muslim prophet.
Islamic tradition says no image of him should be produced or shown.

Muslims were particularly incensed by Westergaard's cartoon, which portrayed Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and was seen as extending the caricature of Muslims as terrorists. The images sparked protests and outrage across the globe.

Mr Westergaard, 73, gave his first-ever English interview to BBC journalist Malcolm Brabant four weeks ago. It had been expected to go out on BBC World, the BBC News channel, across radio services and on its website. But the corporation has kept the report under wraps amid claims it is frightened that it will 'inflame' Muslims around the world.
Mr Westergaard told the Daily Mail last night: 'I am disappointed on behalf of the freedom of speech. Every time you are afraid I think you make a step backwards. That is depressing me.'

He compared the BBC's behaviour with the way countries tried to appease Hitler before the Second World War and added: 'If you have an appeasement policy towards the radical Muslims then you are on a very wrong way and you have to start marching backwards.'
A BBC spokesman said last night: 'No decision has been made

Muslim family start Riots in German court room
http://www.thelocal.de/society/20090213-17415.html
The 24-year-old Ahmad-Sobair O. was convicted of murdering his 16-year-old sister Morsal O. on May 15, 2008 because she had turned away from her family. The girl died after suffering 23 stab wounds in a Sankt Georg district parking lot in Hamburg. Both siblings, who immigrated to Germany 13 years ago, have German citizenship.

“He killed out of pure intolerance,” Hamburg Judge Wolfgang Backen said while reading the verdict, adding that the murder was “treacherous” and a premeditated “bloodbath” after all other attempts to “discipline” his sister had failed.

His verdict sparked dramatic scenes in the court room as Ahmad Sobair O.’s family and friends wailed and hit the security glass behind which he was sitting. The accused himself began screaming: “You son of a whore! What is this, honour? I know no honour!”

He also yelled that had the trial taken place in Kabul, Afghanistan, he would have already been released long ago.

The murderer's mother then tried to throw herself out of a courtroom window, but was restrained by family members. Relatives of the accused also assaulted and threatened a journalist in the room.


The jihad against Britain's Jews
http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3329296/the-jihad-against-b
ritains-jews.thtml


http://infidelsarecool.com/2009/02/15/british-women-pay-high-price-for
-multiculturalism
/
For decades, the British people have undergone an onslaught of aggressive government propaganda schemes intent upon preparing them to first accept the multicultural totalitarian assault and to become a veritable doormat for millions of colonizers – the vast majority being from Islamic countries. There was no public debate nor any citizen vote - multiculturalism, along with militant political correctness - were thrust upon and infected the populous of Great Britain like the Black Plague. Multiculturalism - rather than being based on mutual respect - is a parasitic ideology that encourages immigrants, to not assimilate and to aggressively insist the invaded Western countries be subservient to them and their cultures. In my opinion, multiculturalism demands ‘reverse assimilation’ or the inevitable loss of the indigenous culture as native populations are brainwashed, goaded, shamed and threatened to place all other cultures above their own. The following is primarily about Britain (and later more specifically England) but the same could be said about much of Europe - and likely soon to be in the USA.


Polygamy UK:
This special Mail investigation reveals how thousands of men are milking the benefits system to support several wives
Quote:


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1154789/Polygamy-UK-This-speci
al-Mail-investigation-reveals-thousands-men-milking-benefits-support-wives.html

He cut a smart figure in his grey suit and crisply ironed shirt. The 6ft tall Somalian bowed to the judge, calling him 'Sir', before begging for his wife, Fatima, and their teenage son to be allowed to stay in Britain.
Fatima, with a black khimar veil covering her hair and shoulders, sat quietly next to her husband.
In her late 30s and wearing open sandals, she lowered her dark eyes as the details of the unconventional life she and her husband, Abdi, led in the West London suburb of Shepherd's Bush unfolded at a busy immigration court.
The judge listened in silence. Perhaps he knew from past experience what was coming next. Abdi went on to reveal that Fatima was not his only wife.
Indeed, he was a self-confessed bigamist who had a second, much younger wife and a 13-year-old daughter by her. They both lived nearby.
'I visit them regularly,' said Abdi, 51, who arrived in Britain in the 1990s and works in an old people's home. 'I have done nothing wrong. In Somalia, it is normal to have two wives - even three or four. Fatima is still my wife and she should not be deported.'

Baroness Warsi has warned that politicians have failed to tackle the problem of polygamy because of 'cultural sensitivity'





China: Muslims riot after traffic incident
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025512.php
Hundreds of ethnic Hui Muslim people in Luohe, Henan province, attacked the government headquarters and paralysed traffic in a protest against the local authorities' alleged mishandling of an accident in which a Hui villager was injured, a Hong Kong-based rights organisation said yesterday.


Quote:



No, he doesn’t belong in the Netherlands, but what will it take to get him out?
http://sheikyermami.com/2009/04/02/no-he-doesnt-belong-in-the-netherla
nds-but-what-will-it-take-to-get-him-out
/
by sheikyermami on April 2, 2009

Dutch report concludes “radical imam” not a security threat



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Tuesday, October 20, 2009 8:56 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Free Speech is Dead in England - Conquered by Islam



LIVERPOOL, England - A Christian couple in England is now at risk of losing their business after being prosecuted for debating Islam with a Muslim guest.

Police arrested Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang, who run the Bounty House Hotel in Liverpool, after a Muslim woman complained that she was offended by comments made to her in March. Because the legal case is ongoing the couple cannot comment public More..ly.

According to newspaper reports, the debate at the hotel involved discussion of whether Jesus was the son of God or just a minor prophet of Islam. Newspapers also reported the debate included comments that Mohammed was a warlord and Muslim dress for women was a form of bondage.

The facts of the case are disputed, according to Mike Judge of the Christian Institute, a legal organization helping fund the couple's defense.

He says it's important that Christians defend their right to talk about their faith.

"Freedom of speech is something that is protected in England. But it is being eroded and there are cases of Christians now being told by police officers that they are not allowed to express their religious beliefs," he said. "This has caused the couple serious financial harm. The hotel has seen an 80 percent drop in its income, because a local hospital used to book its local outpatients there."

"As a result of this case and the criminal charges that have been put against these Christians, the hospital has decided not to send its outpatients there anymore," he continued.

Despite that, Judge says the couple has been overwhelmed by the support they've received from Christians around the world.

"They've been tremendously encouraged by hundreds and hundreds of Christians from all over the world emailing them to say, 'we're standing, we're praying with you, we're horrified that this is happening to you and we hope that you succeed in your legal defense,'" he said.

The pair is being prosecuted for a public order offense, when someone feels insulted for their membership of a religious group.

Judge says the case raises significant free speech and religious liberty issues.

"The reason this case is so important is that the freedom to share the Gospel in a Christian country really needs to be paramount and if people can't get involved in a debate about religion then we are losing our freedom of speech," he said. "This is not just an issue that we're facing in Britain, but we're facing it in other Western countries as well and Christians across those nations have to stand together to defend our freedom of speech."

A criminal trial is set for December 8at Liverpool Magistrates' Court.

If convicted the couple could face a maximum fine of $8,000. They'll also have a criminal record.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:06 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

At the risk of espousing an unpopular opinion, I will say that this is the dark side of 'protection from hate' laws.

I have never liked hate laws. They seem to be laws which attempt to divine and punish the content of people's minds and hearts. It's a bit too Orwellian for me.

Hate Speech is just speech you don't care for, in my opinion.

Hateful graffiti is just defacement of property.

Race motivated murder is, really, murder, which is sufficiant cause to put someone away.

As much as I dislike racism, I do not feel that racism should be illegal. That would be thought control. Rather, the individual destructive acts of racism can be (and mostly are) illegal and punishable in their own right.

The idea that people can not have conversations or debates on particular topics makes me uncomfortable and strikes me as wrong.

--Anthony

P.S. "Freedom of speech is one thing, but vulgar taunting and hateful threats are another."

No. It's the same thing. I have no problem with someone holding a sign that says, "All Americans Deserve to Die" just so long as I can hold up a sign countering it. Freedom of Speech is all Speech, no matter how it personally offends you.





"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 4:32 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


I think you are confusing ideals with reality. It's great to have them but they just don't dovetail with how the populace works, as we are deeply flawed - or should I say, we are not ideal.

A simple exampIe about free speech. I was at a Boston Red Sox game recently. One particular fan was very "colorful" in his cheers for the Sox. Some near by fans with children complained. He continued. They got an usher and he was bounced. He was not drunk, just exercising his rights to free speech in the wrong place.

I'm afraid one can be blinded to "rightness" if one blindly follows such absolutes. Things are usually more shades of gray.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 5:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

That's not so much a shade of gray, as another right butting up against the first.

The owners of the venue have the right to eject anyone who is not contributing to the atmosphere they want to maintain.

And the ejected individual may have a right to a refund for services promised, unless the contract stipulates otherwise.

What I don't think anyone should have is the right to not be offended. Because a world with such laws would be a world more restrictive than a corset.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:40 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

That's not so much a shade of gray, as another right butting up against the first.

The owners of the venue have the right to eject anyone who is not contributing to the atmosphere they want to maintain.

And the ejected individual may have a right to a refund for services promised, unless the contract stipulates otherwise.

What I don't think anyone should have is the right to not be offended. Because a world with such laws would be a world more restrictive than a corset.

--Anthony




So if this happened in a public setting - a city park - then the kids/parents would just be out of luck?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 6:56 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Not in our world, sadly. Public cursing would probably get you hauled in for disorderly conduct.

But ideally? Yeah. You could curse in a park.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 8:25 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I have never liked hate laws. They seem to be laws which attempt to divine and punish the content of people's minds and hearts. It's a bit too Orwellian for me.

Hate Speech is just speech you don't care for, in my opinion.

Hateful graffiti is just defacement of property.

Race motivated murder is, really, murder, which is sufficiant cause to put someone away.



It's not punishing the content of people's minds and hearts, because we can't see into those. It's the consequences of acting on those contents that matters.

Me, I take the view that hate crimes are essentially terrorism. If I kill a man because he's gay, it sends a message to all gay people that they are in danger because of who they love. If I write "Death to the Jews" on the side of a building, that fact that it's graffiti is secondary to the message that Jewish people should fear for their lives. (And it doesn't matter if my intentions for the graffiti were as a joke or whatever, because regardless of the (usually unknown) intentions of the vandalist, it still has the same effect as if a Neo-Nazi did it.) If I crash a plane into a building because the people inside are mostly Americans, I send a message that Americans are should be afraid for their lives.

Now, if you want to debate the implementation and eforcement of hate laws, that's a seperate issue.

I have to go to class, I'll come back to this later.

A witty saying proves nothing. - Voltaire

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:00 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Here again, we see something disturbing to me.

People prosecuted for the 'message' they are sending.

I do not care to prosecute people for their 'messages.'

I care to prosecute them for their crimes.

I do not want 'messages' to become crimes.

Bad idea, to my mind.

The graffitti, murder, and mass murder are crimes already.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 9:01 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

If I crash a plane into a building because the people inside are mostly Americans, I send a message that Americans are should be afraid for their lives.


Actually, if you believe the official story, I think that message was supposed to be "stop helping Isreal" but something was kind of lost in translation.

Extreme actions taken in the name of policy or ideology (such as racism/creedism/sexism/homophobia etc.) are stupid as hell and unconscionable no matter who's doing them.

I think that we should be careful about saying Muslims are impossible to negotiate with, and that the culture and every member of the religion is an untrustworthy blood thirsty ticking time bomb. My Muslim friend is one of the sweetest, most friendly girls you'd ever meet, and aside from wearing a head scarf and a slight accent, you'd never know she was from Iraq. She likes American music and Japanese Anime, and she'd never hurt anyone. The Quran actually doesn't support Muslim terrorist activities: rather, Mullah and Ayatollahs are corrupting the texts to teach mostly illiterate recruits violent propaganda.

Hate crime is defined in the United States ONLY as a motive that can warrant a harsher penalty. Kind of the difference between battery and attempted murder. It is not, as far as I'm aware, a charge in of itself. As such, it can not be construed as thought crime.

Let's look at an example in pop culture. When Mel Gibson was arrested for drunk driving and he went off on a spiel about Jews, was it declared a hate crime?

No. Because the crime he was arrested for was not motivated by his biases/hatred. Now, Mel Gibson very likely has some VERY good attorneys, but I think also that in that particular case, clearly his free speech was not impinged upon, nor was he arrested for anything protected by the first amendment.

However, this is why we have to be careful about the definition of hate crime. It must only be allowed as a motive, attached to an actual crime. People should be allowed to say things that society could potentially construe as offensive, so long as no crime is committed.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:19 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Not in our world, sadly. Public cursing would probably get you hauled in for disorderly conduct.

But ideally? Yeah. You could curse in a park.




You say "curse" like we're talking about "shit" or "fuck." You've obviously never been verbally abused or harassed or targeted by hate.

Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:28 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I spent years of my life enduring hateful harassment.

And yeah, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a Spic, Rafter, Rower, Floater, Marielito, Cube, Fob, or Island Beaner.

I would also lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a cracker, as I have also often been referred.

Essentially, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone. Because I consider them rights.

--Anthony

P.S. Do not confuse 'lobby to protect the rights of' with 'silently accept the actions of.' I do everything I can to encourage civil discourse.



"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 10:58 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I am with Anthony on this, who's basically stating my viewpoint without need for my input here.

But this needs comment.

Bytemite
Quote:

The Quran actually doesn't support Muslim terrorist activities: rather, Mullah and Ayatollahs are corrupting the texts to teach mostly illiterate recruits violent propaganda.

Oh yes, the Quran has some very strong words about such conduct, harming noncombatants, women, children, taking prisoners, etc - provided one has actually READ it instead of takin some Ayatollahs word for it, which we have little room to speak of since the Bible has some strong words of similar variety in Psalms and the NT as well.

Me, I ain't of either faith - but I *do* discuss it with Muslim folk I know, most of whom moved here to get away from that crap, and feel a bit miffed that folks associate em with it just cause of their nationality - if anything, they hate the radicals worse than we do cause they came to a foreign country where they're not much liked in order to be away from it - so consider that when you see someone of obvious middle eastern descent over here, yes ?

And that's one reason RAWA promotes literacy, cause despite their lack of respect for women, having your wife or sister call you out on your behavior with Gods Word is a hard thing to to shrug off for someone who is devout - it's one hell of a crowbar to influence behavior, believe it.

And consider this - see if you can tell me WHO said this one ?

"Do not follow the multitude in doing a wrong."

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 11:00 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?


I would.

Hell, I find folks chattering on a cellphone annoying and offensive.
I find Salvation Army Santas and them hell-spawned bells EXTREMELY offensive...

Not to mention various profanity and ephithets, which having driven a cab I've certainly heard quite a share of...

But I would never seek to remove another persons ability to offend me, NEVER.

That way lies tyranny.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


P.S. "Freedom of speech is one thing, but vulgar taunting and hateful threats are another."

No. It's the same thing. I have no problem with someone holding a sign that says, "All Americans Deserve to Die" just so long as I can hold up a sign countering it. Freedom of Speech is all Speech, no matter how it personally offends you.



Actually, that's not quite true. There's a difference between "vulgar" speech and "hateful threats".

In general, though, I tend to agree. Speech that is offensive isn't automatically grounds for legal action. Hell, I offend people every single day, just by not believing in their stupid gods, and for being unapologetic about it.

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?



Define "offend". Would you outlaw 400-pound people wearing Spandex? 'Cause I find them DEEPLY offensive. Will you outlaw cell phones? Idiots yelling into their goddamned phones in the middle of a restaurant are very offensive, and idiots talking into them or texting while driving are downright dangerous - far more dangerous than drunk drivers, in fact.

Where do YOUR right not to be offended and MY right not to be offended meet? And how many people will be offended by us trying to figure that out?

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:09 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't even class indirect hateful threats (All Chinese deserve to die) as something I would take action against.

My particular line is in the category of personal statements of intent. (I am going to kill you. I am going to kill all Americans.)

Also, incitement to violence would be prohibited (Kill a Jew this Christmas) because these have an imminent and direct quality placing the speaker in the position of being a conspirator to murder.

I guess you would call this my gray area.

So, in Anthony's view: "Hispanics need to die" would be legal, and "Kill a Hispanic Tuesday" would be illegal.

I don't know where Frem or others with similar views might draw their own lines.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:13 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I spent years of my life enduring hateful harassment.

And yeah, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a Spic, Rafter, Rower, Floater, Marielito, Cube, Fob, or Island Beaner.

I would also lobby to protect the rights of anyone who calls me a cracker, as I have also often been referred.

Essentially, I would lobby to protect the rights of anyone. Because I consider them rights.

--Anthony




Name calling is not what I'm talking about. That to me is not hateful harassment. Hell, my friends call me names.

If your "hateful harassment" was greater then I assume that you would have been happy to have not had to experience it at all.

Fwiw - I'd be happy to *serve* anyone who decides that being offensive around children is "their right."

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:23 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

If you are referring to hateful harassment in the form of being attacked and beaten due to my genetic heritage or the color of my skin, I can attest to that level of harassment as well. Forgive me for couching this in terms of speech alone, since that was the topic primarily being dealt with.

If someone beats me up for being hispanic, or a white anglo saxon protestant (two contradictory and ironic experiences in my life) I'd be content for them to see assault charges. I don't want them prosecuted for hate. That indeed DOES litigate against thought. I don't want the law to care why he beat me up, why he broke my nose, dislodged a tooth, and left me embarrassed and bleeding on the ground. I do want the law to punish him for performing that violence.

Motive is only important insofar as it helps to prove guilt in a court of law by explaining why someone would assault someone minding their own business. I do not believe motive should tie into criminal punishment except insofar as the motive can be deemed to render the assault legally justified.

As for having the right to be vulgar around children in public space? I absolutely assert that right.

Meanwhile, I equally assert my responsibility to do no such thing. I feel many responsibilities as a human being that have nothing whatsoever to do with my legal rights.

--Anthony


"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:24 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Besides, really? You'd lobby for the right to offend people in public?



Define "offend". Would you outlaw 400-pound people wearing Spandex? 'Cause I find them DEEPLY offensive. Will you outlaw cell phones? Idiots yelling into their goddamned phones in the middle of a restaurant are very offensive, and idiots talking into them or texting while driving are downright dangerous - far more dangerous than drunk drivers, in fact.

Where do YOUR right not to be offended and MY right not to be offended meet? And how many people will be offended by us trying to figure that out?




Thx Mike - I was just about to reply to Frem with that very point: it all depends on definitions. I was going to say that his points show that it is about the definitions decided by the group and not the individuals that are the most important.
What I can imagine as "offense" is deeply offensive - not spandex bad - I was going to share examples and then deleted my post because I just don't want to go there.
For me to think of someone who is so tied to absolutes that they would defend that kind of behaviour just makes me think they haven't really experienced the kind of abuse that's out there or they lack the imagination or the innate cruelty (good for them!).


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Anthony: I think I see where you're coming from.

"Death to Jews" would be offensive to many, but not really threatening, per se.

But "Kill THAT Jew" WOULD be threatening.

Sound about right?

At the same time, someone on this board saying "I wish Kwicko would die" is far different than someone coming at me in person, saying "I'm going to KILL you!" I'll defend your right to do the former, but if you try the latter...

Mike

Let the wild rumpus start!

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:51 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Motive is only important insofar as it helps to prove guilt in a court of law by explaining why someone would assault someone minding their own business. I do not believe motive should tie into criminal punishment except insofar as the motive can be deemed to render the assault legally justified.



I can agree there. I was just explaining the way it's theoretically supposed to work.

Quote:

Anthony: I think I see where you're coming from.

"Death to Jews" would be offensive to many, but not really threatening, per se.

But "Kill THAT Jew" WOULD be threatening.

Sound about right?

At the same time, someone on this board saying "I wish Kwicko would die" is far different than someone coming at me in person, saying "I'm going to KILL you!" I'll defend your right to do the former, but if you try the latter...



Yes. Which is the spirit of the claim to motive.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 2:55 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"'Death to Jews' would be offensive to many, but not really threatening, per se."

It would be considered hate speech by the UN, something two radio announcers were tried for in Rwanda.

It is part of the process of dehumanizing a group in order to make the people victims.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:16 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"'Death to Jews' would be offensive to many, but not really threatening, per se."

It would be considered hate speech by the UN, something two radio announcers were tried for in Rwanda.

It is part of the process of dehumanizing a group in order to make the people victims.


***************************************************************

Silence is consent.



Hello Rue,

I do not wish to see 'dehumanizing' people made illegal. Only specific acts of criminality.

I do think it is the responsibility of every sane, reasonable, and thinking person to speak out against dehumanization and present strong counteropinions whenever it surfaces.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, October 21, 2009 3:22 PM

GINOBIFFARONI







Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists


Lets party like its 1939

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