REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Abortion

POSTED BY: CARTOON
UPDATED: Friday, June 10, 2022 08:09
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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:01 AM

CARTOON


I heard the following commentary by Chuck Colson today on his Breakpoint program, and I thought I'd post it here...

Quote:

During the thirty-fourth anniversary of Roe v. Wade, you heard a great deal about the victims of abortion. That phrase—for obvious reasons—nearly always referred to the tens of millions of unborn children who have been killed as the result of Roe.

But there is another group of victims whose plight receives much less attention: the women themselves. And the fault for this lack of attention can be laid at the feet of those who claim to be defending their “right to choose.”

A recent example of their plight is a study published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry. In it, researchers from New Zealand explored possible “linkages between unwanted pregnancy, abortion and long-term mental health.”

It is important to point out that David Fergusson, L. John Horwood, and Elizabeth Ridder were not setting out to prove that abortion is bad for women’s health. There’s no evidence, or even a suggestion, that they are partisans in the debates over abortion.

Instead, their goal was to either confirm or disprove previous studies that did find a link between having an abortion and things like “substance abuse, anxiety, hostility, low self-esteem, (and) depression.”

Using data from a longitudinal study of 25-year-olds in the Christchurch, New Zealand, area, they compared three groups of women: those who had never been pregnant, those who had been pregnant but had not had an abortion, and those who had had an abortion.

After controlling for factors such as socio-economic status and home life, they found “significant differences” between those who had had an abortion and those who had not. There were greater instances of depression, drug use, suicidal thoughts, and total mental health problems.

The authors concluded that their results were consistent “with the view that exposure to abortion was associated with increased risks of mental health problems”—the increases as much as 33 and 42 percent.

As I said, the authors were just looking for the facts. They are not partisans in the debate over abortion, but I am. So I will say what they did not: If some behavior or environmental factor increased people’s chances of serious health problems by more than a third, there would be outraged calls for regulation, or at the very minimum, they would demand adequate notice and warnings.

Any behavior but abortion, that is. As the authors of the study pointed out, theirs is but the most recent in a line of peer-reviewed studies that suggest that having an abortion is bad for a woman’s mental health.

Yet, giving that information to pregnant women is seen as an unacceptable infringement on their “right to choose.” It is the glaring exception to the overall trend today toward giving people more information—not less—about health risks.

Pro-abortionists apparently think that uninformed “choice” is the best kind. That makes their claim to be “pro-woman” ring hollow.

All of us ought to want women to know all the risks involved in having an abortion. They should know that there are two victims of what they are considering.



http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6013

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 5:19 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist or a team of psychiatrists to figure out that having your unborn child sucked out of you and buried is a traumatic, emotionally scarring process. I can't imagine anyone who does that and says, "Wheee!"

So this study goes into the no-shit category.

Also, even though they DIDN'T make a study of women who weren't prepared for a child and had one anyway- I'm willing to bet it's a traumatic, emotionally scarring process. One which breeds resentment, antagonism, and depression for years at least, and possibly the remainder of a woman's life.

Give me a PHD!

Fact is, there's nothing fun about either option. Neither option is going to be an amusement park ride.

That having been said, I don't want to see women dying in backshop clinics with coat hangers up their twats. I also don't want to see a woman forced to have a baby when the government isn't prepared to provide complete and adequate care for every unwanted pregnancy that occurs.

So I think we'll let the law stand as is, and God can sort it out with his infinite wisdom when the time comes.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:10 AM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist or a team of psychiatrists to figure out that having your unborn child sucked out of you and buried is a traumatic, emotionally scarring process. I can't imagine anyone who does that and says, "Wheee!"

So this study goes into the no-shit category.

Also, even though they DIDN'T make a study of women who weren't prepared for a child and had one anyway- I'm willing to bet it's a traumatic, emotionally scarring process. One which breeds resentment, antagonism, and depression for years at least, and possibly the remainder of a woman's life.

Give me a PHD!

Fact is, there's nothing fun about either option. Neither option is going to be an amusement park ride.

That having been said, I don't want to see women dying in backshop clinics with coat hangers up their twats. I also don't want to see a woman forced to have a baby when the government isn't prepared to provide complete and adequate care for every unwanted pregnancy that occurs.

So I think we'll let the law stand as is, and God can sort it out with his infinite wisdom when the time comes.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner



Totally agree. Either way is an ugle, traumatic option. But I don't think the choice should be legislated away. Leave it as it stands.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:11 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


This is a really stupid study. Is it possible that depressed, drug-dependent women CHOOSE abortion because they realise that they're not parent material? It's the problem with any correlation: does A cause B, does B cause A, are they both caused by C, or are they coincidental?

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 8:39 AM

SHINYED


America markets abortion like vendors at the stadium ( 2nd largest advertiser in Yellow Pages ) Hey... Abortion ! Abortion ! Abortion !

Hey...get your red-hot abortion here!

No waiting...come on in today...baby-free tonite!
No guilt...for what? You only had sex...pshaw!!!
No money...Uncle Sam will pay the tab, no worries mate
No boyfriend/husband...been foolin' 'round?...we no care who the seed donor was
No scruples...you had good reasons to fuck
No morals...well you are over 8...so all is good
No clue who's the proud papa...we luv orgies' by-products
No idea when....we yank it whenever it was made
No age limit...40-90 our specialty...just one shot of our special clamato juice fixes ya right up
No age too low...we won't tell your mommy & daddy...dont worry
No self-esteem....hey now your'e popular I bet
No ability to say no...better to just let the boys get their way...why resist the fun?
No time limit...we got 8 months 30 days...ok!
We got 'em with mustouches and goatees....Hey
Hey...Abortions !hey..Abortions !..Get your Abortions here!






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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:12 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"After controlling for factors such as socio-economic status and home life..." I think if they had measured pre-existing levels of "substance abuse, anxiety, hostility, low self-esteem, (and) depression" the study would be more compelling.


http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/355/1/1?query=TOC

Antiabortion claims w/out merit:

"a woman diagnosed with breast cancer while pregnant has a significantly longer life expectancy if she gives birth rather than aborting."
The National Cancer Institute finds no credible evidence to support these claims; indeed, a recent large meta-analysis found no such link.

"post-abortion stress syndrome."
This diagnosis is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association; a study of women's responses to abortions indicated that distress is greatest before the procedure and that there are few severe negative responses afterward

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey ShinyEd,

Do you work at being a douche bag or is it natural?

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:21 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
No time limit...we got 8 months 30 days...ok!


Lol!

Can't believe abortion is still an issue in the US. For that matter, can't believe gay marriage, the validity of global warming theory and the validity of the theory of evolution are still an issue, and that the death penalty is still allowed. And that "separation of state and church" apparently means politicians needing to be deeply religious and visit churches whenever they're running a campaign. And that overseas professors get beaten down for jaywalking.

Why, one might just get the impression that the US is a bit backward.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:34 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hey ShinyEd,

Do you work at being a douche bag or is it natural?



Hey Rue,

Your reply to my post is downright nasty...why the attitude and name-calling?

Could it be that you are the result of an abortion gone terribly wrong?


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:37 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
This is a really stupid study.

Yep.

And studies show 99% of all dead people do not excersize regularly.

I want a PhD too Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:41 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And studies show 99% of all dead people do not excersize regularly.


And the missing 1% must have been the studies' margin of error. That means it might also only be 98% who don't exercise! Stop twisting the facts, Chris!



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 9:58 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"Shiny"Ed,

As you see by my other post I reply very nicely and factually to posters who aren't jackass trolls.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:41 AM

SHINYED


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Shiny"Ed,

and factually to posters who aren't jackass trolls. :



Oh yeah..I see you're a real rutting genius.

Why don't you try working your plough inside yourself for a spell...that ought to make you feel at least as good as insulting me.


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


And your post wasn't flamebait? No facts, no links, just a void of many words chosen to incite.

Quote:

America markets abortion like vendors at the stadium ( 2nd largest advertiser in Yellow Pages ) Hey... Abortion ! Abortion ! Abortion !

Hey...get your red-hot abortion here!

No waiting...come on in today...baby-free tonite!
No guilt...for what? You only had sex...pshaw!!!
No money...Uncle Sam will pay the tab, no worries mate
No boyfriend/husband...been foolin' 'round?...we no care who the seed donor was
No scruples...you had good reasons to fuck
No morals...well you are over 8...so all is good
No clue who's the proud papa...we luv orgies' by-products
No idea when....we yank it whenever it was made
No age limit...40-90 our specialty...just one shot of our special clamato juice fixes ya right up
No age too low...we won't tell your mommy & daddy...dont worry
No self-esteem....hey now your'e popular I bet
No ability to say no...better to just let the boys get their way...why resist the fun?
No time limit...we got 8 months 30 days...ok!
We got 'em with mustouches and goatees....Hey
Hey...Abortions !hey..Abortions !..Get your Abortions here!


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yeah, 'cause I've seen those abortion-hawkers, shamelessly waving their signs at passing motorists. "GET YOUR ABORTION HERE!"

Not.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:56 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
And studies show 99% of all dead people do not excersize regularly.


And the missing 1% must have been the studies' margin of error. That means it might also only be 98% who don't exercise! Stop twisting the facts, Chris!


The missing 1% represents vampire and/or zombie activity. Or so I'm told.
How to Lie With Dead Statistics (c)1801

Fact twister Chrisisall

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 10:57 AM

WRATCHIT


I just know the anti-abortion activists are hands down, the nuttiest people in the 'verse.

Put them against the muslim extremists, and it would be an end-all to wars and terrorism.

__________________________________________________
Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?
www.bikerplanet.net

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:18 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"I just know the abortion activists are hands down, the nuttiest people in the 'verse."

You're right. They go around bombing clinics, sending terrorist threats and shooting people. They're that nutty. Oh wait! I thought you said antiabortion activists! My bad.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:26 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
That having been said, I don't want to see women dying in backshop clinics with coat hangers up their twats. I also don't want to see a woman forced to have a baby when the government isn't prepared to provide complete and adequate care for every unwanted pregnancy that occurs.



I suppose suggesting that women who don't want babies should either use effective birth-control or just not have sex is probably not going to get much of a hearing.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:27 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Okay, I usually avoid these threads but I may as well weigh in here.

I'm Irish. As in from Ireland. As in from a country where abortion is still illegal. Abortion can only happen with a doctor's consent if the mother's life is in danger, and even then the paperwork is hell.

Does that mean I live on some paradise island where babies are never aborted? No. It means the opposite. It means that any woman who has to abort her baby for any reason does so without any support from the state. It means she joins the thousands of women every year who go for a "brief holiday" to England, or, if she can't afford that, she tries to abort it herself, or get some backstreet butcher to do it for her. I don't think I need to go into the horrendous injuries that happen as a result.

If she can't do that, she has the baby. No matter how young she is, no matter how small a community she lives in, no matter if the father raped her, has left her to raise the baby alone or insists that there is no possible way it could be his kid. She becomes a mother. That or some scared teenager dies in childbirth alone. I'm not exaggerating. Probably the most famous case here was Anne Lovett, a 15 year old girl who died on the 31st of January 1984. She'd gone to a "grotto" (an outdoor Catholic shrine to the Virgin Mary) and died of exposure and bleeding, along with her baby, after four hours in the cold and the rain. That's the most famous case, but it's not the only one.

I get why people object to abortion, but it's not a black and white issue. There are no easy answers when it comes to this. I won't say I like the thought of a life - any life - being ended before it's begun, but I recognise that sometimes it's the kindest thing to do. Because much as I dislike the thought of abortion, I hate the thought of a fifteen year old girl taking a pair of scissors from the kitchen drawer and walking out into the dark alone a whole lot more.




Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:28 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Shiny"Ed, and factually to posters who aren't jackass trolls. :



Shiny, better get used to it. Anyone who disagrees with their ideology is a "troll".

The truth hurts, and some folks don't like it.


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:35 AM

KANEMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
Hey ShinyEd,

Do you work at being a douche bag or is it natural?



Ruse,
A natural douche bag? This must be your long lost brother...and you thought your mom aborted him....She must have opted for adoption after all.

Shineyed post was quite funny. To bad if you don't agree with his political OPINION. You are a sad sad little man. How is your frog dick stroking habit going anyway? Well, just make sure to wash your hands before eating.......or don't.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:36 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I suppose suggesting that women who don't want babies should either use effective birth-control or just not have sex is probably not going to get much of a hearing.


Exactly.

What they mean when they say "Pro-choice" is freedom from responsibility for their choices.

As you so aptly pointed out, the time for "choice" is before the conception, not after. But then, since when did liberals ever want to take responsibility for anything they do. It's always someone else's fault.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:39 AM

SHINYED


Cartoon,

Your words are a kindness....much obliged.

The thread was titled "abortion"....very simple...I gave my opinions through my post. If the dolt responding to it doesn't have the slightest scintilla of a clue as to the nature of my post it's not my problem.

Unfortunately, little smart-assed twits who think they're intelligent think they can just bully and name-call whoever they want to attack...or "whoever they deem a troll". People like that...armed with their little half-facts, their little links to obscure writing, and their obviously limited life experience, etc. make me just wanna vomit.


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:50 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
I suppose suggesting that women who don't want babies should either use effective birth-control or just not have sex is probably not going to get much of a hearing.

Is of course this is the ideal, unless you're catholic but that's a different matter. As soon as we're living in an ideal world where the ideal always happens ring me and we can put that anti abortion bill into place.

We had one of these threads here not too long ago, it just turned into flamebait, what with the moderate reasonable posters calling anyone who disagreed with them 'baby killing nazis' and all. Funny how a certain poster started another one, almost like they're here to start flames...

Isn't that kinda like what trolls do?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:53 AM

KHYRON


Cartoon, even though I'm "pro-choice", I think you made a nice point in your last post. Unfortunately, there indeed are some who are pro-abortion just because they're too lazy to use condoms, but that's a minority and doesn't invalidate all the arguments for abortion.

ShinyEd, don't mind rue, she's a bit abrasive at times, but she can be very cool as well (not just when you happen to be on her side of an argument). I thought your post was funny and brought your point across nicely.



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:55 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
That or some scared teenager dies in childbirth alone. I'm not exaggerating. Probably the most famous case here was Anne Lovett, a 15 year old girl who died on the 31st of January 1984. She'd gone to a "grotto" (an outdoor Catholic shrine to the Virgin Mary) and died of exposure and bleeding, along with her baby, after four hours in the cold and the rain.

Of course she deserved it, dirty sinners, dirty sinners all.

Thankfully there are people who have some compassion and don't judge because they have little real experince of life outside of the sheltered upbringing they assume everyone got...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

I suppose suggesting that women who don't want babies should either use effective birth-control or just not have sex is probably not going to get much of a hearing.
Or maybe men should get their nuts cut off?


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 11:57 AM

WRATCHIT


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"I just know the abortion activists are hands down, the nuttiest people in the 'verse."

You're right. They go around bombing clinics, sending terrorist threats and shooting people. They're that nutty. Oh wait! I thought you said antiabortion activists! My bad.



Fixed it. I've been drinking and playing on the net again..........

__________________________________________________
Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?
www.bikerplanet.net

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:14 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ahhh Cartoon ....

You posted one story of one study that was frankly bogus. And you claim to be on the side of 'truth'. No matter how many lies you have to spew.

I have a challenge for you. Come up with one - ONE - valid study that backs up any one of your notions.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:16 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
That or some scared teenager dies in childbirth alone. I'm not exaggerating. Probably the most famous case here was Anne Lovett, a 15 year old girl who died on the 31st of January 1984. She'd gone to a "grotto" (an outdoor Catholic shrine to the Virgin Mary) and died of exposure and bleeding, along with her baby, after four hours in the cold and the rain.

Of course she deserved it, dirty sinners, dirty sinners all.

Thankfully there are people who have some compassion and don't judge because they have little real experince of life outside of the sheltered upbringing they assume everyone got...



Well, living in a country where the prime example given to every schoolgirl is a virgin mother doesn't help much. "Here you go ladies! An ideal it's physically impossible to live up to without divine intervention!"

I have to admit, my first reaction to the birth control/don't have sex comment was a pretty sarcastic "Oh, gee! I never thought of that!" Which is bitchy I know, but seriously, there are very few women who choose a painful procedure that has a risk of pretty nasty complications over the pill, or asking the guy to wear a condom. And that's leaving aside the whole don't-bother-having-sex-in-the-first-place thing. None of those options takes from the fact that unwanted pregnancy happens, and when it happens it has to be dealt with. I'm not saying abortion is always the right answer. What I'm saying is that it has to be a legal option. Because the reality is that if it isn't it just becomes an illegal one.




Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:18 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by ShinyEd:
The thread was titled "abortion"....very simple...I gave my opinions through my post. If the dolt responding to it doesn't have the slightest scintilla of a clue as to the nature of my post it's not my problem.


It's been said that one can judge a man by his enemies. If that's true, you should wear their insults as a badge of honor.


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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:27 PM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
None of those options takes from the fact that unwanted pregnancy happens, and when it happens it has to be dealt with. I'm not saying abortion is always the right answer. What I'm saying is that it has to be a legal option. Because the reality is that if it isn't it just becomes an illegal one.


Nicely said!



The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:27 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ed,

According to you "Unfortunately, little smart-assed twits who think they're intelligent think they can just bully and name-call whoever they want to attack...or "whoever they deem a troll". People like that...armed with their little half-facts, their little links to obscure writing, and their obviously limited life experience, etc. make me just wanna vomit."

Yes, this is the antithesis of all you deem objectionable.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:28 PM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
I have a challenge for you. Come up with one - ONE - valid study that backs up any one of your notions.


Rue, hello.

Well, as every previous site I've ever quoted in any thread in which I've posted has been automatically dismissed by you (even when the quotes were from a Nobel Prize winner), I must conclude that you only accept studies which A) you've done yourself, or B) were done by persons you personally vouch for.

As such, can you please point to me one which you've authored which supports this supposition, so I can quote it to your satisfaction?

Lacking that, I'm sure nothing else I post (or any source from which I may quote) will matter the least with you.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:31 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I've responded to your links with, I thought, a resonable debate. Just b/c you post them doesn't mean I have to accept them. But I DO indicate what I find deficient. AFAIK that's an invitation to discuss.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 12:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I read the study.

It did say that those who had had abortions left home earlier, has less schooling, were poorer, were in 'cohabitation' arrangements etc. In other words, were different from the comparison population.

And I noticed that the study didn't individually follow the participants, so while there is association between data there is no clear cause and effect. In other words the depression etc could have been the reason for the woman to seek an abortion rather than the effect.

And I find this to be of interest:

"In New Zealand, the provision of legal abortion is determined by the Contraception, Sterilisation and Abortion Act, 1977 and overseen by the Abortion Supervisory Committee. The Act requires that certain criteria are met before allowing a woman to undergo a legal abortion. Firstly, women must approach their doctor and are then referred to specialist consultants.
Two certifying consultants must then agree: 1) that the pregnancy would seriously harm the life, physical or mental health of the woman or baby; or 2) that the pregnancy is the result of incest; or 3) that the woman is severely mentally handicapped. An abortion will also be considered on the basis of age, or when the pregnancy is the result of rape."

So the abortion groups is pre-screened - they may already be victims. And, obtaining an abortion is contentious. There have been other studies (on rape, which I'll have to dig out) that show merely going through this process causes a sense of victimization, and its associated fallout.

Other studies (from other countries) don't indicate a negative effect. If there is one (and it's not entirely clear there is), it may be due to the NZ process for obtaining an aboertion.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"Shiny"Ed,

As you see by my other post I reply very nicely and factually to posters who aren't jackass trolls.


Well, while not a troll, I'll certainly admit to bein a jackass, so for that do I get a...



(wait for it...)




Half-ass response ?

-F

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:25 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Erk? Rue's a girl ?

Not that it matters, but it totally blows the geeky college student type mental image I was holdin...

I'm not commenting on the topic, btw - said all imma say on it.

-F

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:02 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

I'll certainly admit to bein a jackass, so for that do I get a...

(wait for it)

Half-ass response ? -F


OMG that was funny !!!

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

According to you "Unfortunately, little smart-assed twits who think they're intelligent think they can just bully and name-call whoever they want to attack...or "whoever they deem a troll". People like that...armed with their little half-facts, their little links to obscure writing, and their obviously limited life experience, etc. make me just wanna vomit." -Ed

Yes, this is the antithesis of all you deem objectionable.-Rue

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!


Ed BTW- I happen to know Rue. Rue is NOT a person with "little life experience".

heh heh heh heh

snicker

stilllaughingoverthatone, rue.




---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 3:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Fixed it. I've been drinking and playing on the net again..........
Well, it's nice to see we're maintaining sense of humor.



---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:09 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Y'know, abortion would almost be a forgotten issue if there weren't pharmacists who objected to handing out the morning after pill (don't know how many still do, but it's been a problem here), better education in general, less poverty, and generally less human misery. Call me when the conservatives (or anyone, really) "fix it" with abstinence programs, 'kay, Cartoon?

Oh, never mind. You don't have my phone number, and it’s not gonna happen anyway.

If the general level of human misery decreases, I can guarantee there would be fewer abortions. It's one of the issues tangled up with other side effects of human life. So, if people focused on actually doing something about education, homelessness, health care, etc. (our Victorian views on sexuality?) then we would also be helping in the fight against abortions.

I am, of course, speaking as a U.S. citizen, about the U.S., because Rue, SignyM, Khyron, Citizen, Storymark, Chrisisall, AnthonyT, and DesktopHippie (gee, I could have just said "everyone but Cartoon and ShinyEd, couldn't I?) have pretty much said everything else that needs saying (or will in the future). I leave this topic to the informed debaters of RWED, along with a few fire extinguishers (just in case).

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:12 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Thankfully there are people who have some compassion and don't judge because they have little real experince of life outside of the sheltered upbringing they assume everyone got...



Easy, now. It's possible to have compassion and not judge and still be against abortion. It's also possible to have real-world experience and an unsheltered upbringing and still be against abortion. There are good, rational arguments against abortion, just like there are for it. Let's not take the easy way out of this conversation by simply painting the other side as ignorant morons.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:18 AM

CAUSAL


Quote:

Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
I have to admit, my first reaction to the birth control/don't have sex comment was a pretty sarcastic "Oh, gee! I never thought of that!" Which is bitchy I know, but seriously, there are very few women who choose a painful procedure that has a risk of pretty nasty complications over the pill, or asking the guy to wear a condom. And that's leaving aside the whole don't-bother-having-sex-in-the-first-place thing. None of those options takes from the fact that unwanted pregnancy happens, and when it happens it has to be dealt with. I'm not saying abortion is always the right answer. What I'm saying is that it has to be a legal option. Because the reality is that if it isn't it just becomes an illegal one.



See? See? We can have a calm discussion after all! Go us!

Back-slapping aside, this position assumes that abortion is a morally neutral proposition, which I'm not prepared to grant. If it's the case that abortion is in fact morally neutral, then golly, we better not make it illegal. But if it's the case that it's not, then we need to be talking about other stuff.

The problem with the abortion debate seems to be that one side casts it as a moral issue and argues it that way, and the other side casts it as a legal rights issue and argues it that way. And so no progress is ever made, because the two sides aren't even talking about the same thing!

For the record, I oppose abortion. I do so not on religious grounds, but philosophical ones (which I'd be happy to discuss--calmly--if asked). And I think that I've demonstrated that I'm neither hot-head, nor extremist, nor radical; I don't claim the Republicans nor conservatism. And I certainly think that we need to seriously address the problems of poverty in the U.S. I don't want anybody dying in back alleys. But I still oppose abortion, and I hope that I can, at the least, exemplify the calmer, more considered side of my position.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets


I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 5:28 AM

CARTOON


Quote:

Originally posted by Causal:
Quote:

Originally posted by citizen:
Thankfully there are people who have some compassion and don't judge because they have little real experince of life outside of the sheltered upbringing they assume everyone got...



Easy, now. It's possible to have compassion and not judge and still be against abortion. It's also possible to have real-world experience and an unsheltered upbringing and still be against abortion.


I agree.

As related to real-world experience, I was probably involved in political discussion and debate before many of the posters in this thread were even born. I've also witnessed and experienced things firsthand which many of you can only have read about long after the fact.

As regarding abortion proponents seeming unwillingness for any sort of "informed consent" (hence my posting of the original article, above), here's another from the same source: http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=6019 -- which exposes yet another aspect of "informed consent" which abortion proponents would rather not discuss -- and something which (thanks to advances in science) wasn't known when Roe vs Wade was decided more than three decades ago.

Quote:

Undoubtedly many of the great evils of our times have been committed because the cries of the victims were not heard—not heard by those who sat by, comfortably ignorant of the horrors around them. In early nineteenth-century England, few citizens had any real understanding that the lump of sugar they dropped in their afternoon tea was made at the high price of human bondage. The screams of men and women branded or whipped on West Indies sugar plantations were not heard in the fashionable parlors of England. Not until, that is, the great Christian statesman William Wilberforce launched his crusade against the slave trade.

Today, some two hundred years later, there are victims whose agony our ears will never hear. These are the unborn victims of abortion.

While the unborn do not have a voice to scream, science tells us that by twenty weeks a child in the womb is capable of feeling pain. Dr. Sunny Anand, director of the Pain Neurobiology Laboratory at Arkansas Children’s Hospital Research Institute, testified before Congress and said: “The pain perceived by a fetus is possibly more intense than that perceived by term newborns or older children . . . the highest density of pain receptors per square inch of skin in human development occurs in utero from twenty to thirty weeks gestation.” Sobering testimony.

To make matters worse, the biological mechanisms that inhibit the experience of pain do not begin to develop until weeks thirty to thirty-two.

Yet ironically, an unborn child has less legal protection from feeling pain than commercial livestock. In a slaughterhouse, a method of slaughter is deemed legally humane only if, as the hundred-year-old law states, “all animals are rendered insensible to pain . . . ” By contrast, D&E abortions, performed as late as twenty-four weeks, involve the dismemberment of the unborn child by a pair of sharp metal forceps. Instillation methods of abortion replace up to one cup of amniotic fluid with concentrated salt solution, which the unborn child inhales as the salt burns his or her skin. The child lives in this condition up to an hour.

These things are uncomfortable to hear and to speak about. That is precisely the point. We should not be comfortable in a society where such things exist and where we have the power to influence change. The Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act is scheduled to be re-introduced into this Congress. This legislation would require that women seeking abortions are fully informed of the pain that their unborn baby feels when he or she is aborted twenty weeks or more after fertilization. If that knowledge does not deter the mother in what has come to be reduced to a mere “choice,” she must be offered the opportunity to give the unborn child drugs to ease his or her pain.

Pro-abortion advocates dreadfully fear this legislation. It brings to light the difficult questions they do not want to confront, like why livestock have more rights than an unborn child. Questions like these, like the cries of victims, are hard to forget once they have shaken us from the comfort of our parlor chairs.


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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 6:56 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"... pain that their unborn baby feels when he or she is aborted twenty weeks or more after fertilization."

This has also been debunked many times over. PLEASE STOP USING BOGUS ARGUMENTS !!! (ie lies)

I'm tired of arguing against parroted talking points that the slightest (and I do mean slightest) google search would reveal are untrue.

If you want to maintain your credibility as a non-partisan seeker of the truth - and it's clear you don't - check your 'facts' first before spewing on the board.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947
"Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks."

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:28 AM

CAUSAL


Of course, the issue that no one discusses is the ontological status of that thing in the woman's womb. Both sides merely take as axiomatic whichever view best fits their worldview--and their terminology shows it. Is it a fully-fledged human being, entitled to all the rights belonging thereto? Then it's a (unborn) baby. Is it a mass of tissue that might become human, and is therefore merely a part of the woman's body? Then it's a fetus. And it's just easier not to talk about the issue, because that's where all the philosophic heavy lifting is. This, of course, allows both sides to talk past each other, without seriously addressing the arguments of their opponents.

Plus, complicating matters, we have such a binary view of politics (either you are one or the other, and if you claim to be one or the other, you have to buy the entire party line), which means that people don't actually derive their opinions from considered thought, but from whatever party they adhere to, and yes, that means both sides of the aisle.

Then there's the fact that only women get pregnant, so the issue is subsumed under the heading of feminism. And because most law-makers are male, and all pregnant people are female, it starts to look like yet another tool of patriarchal oppression (which further clouds the issue of what that thing is).

Come on, isn't anyone interested in doing more than rehashing the same old tired arguments?
________________________________________________________________________
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:29 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I think I made my position clear already - the same criterion for death should be used for life - brain activity.

As for feminism, it's clear that this is considered a 'woman's' issue/ problem/ sin and men are conveniently left out of the picture. The WOMAN had SEX !!!??? OMG why wasn't SHE more careful/ a stronger fighter/ pure ? The man is just incidental to the whole debate.

Though, biologically speaking, it makes a lot more sense to sterilize men since a woman can only crank out so many in a lifetime and she doesn't even need to be a willing participant. While a man can do a lot more damage and has to be able and willing and so has a lot more choice.

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:40 AM

AMITON


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947
"Fetal awareness of noxious stimuli requires functional thalamocortical connections. Thalamocortical fibers begin appearing between 23 to 30 weeks’ gestational age, while electroencephalography suggests the capacity for functional pain perception in preterm neonates probably does not exist before 29 or 30 weeks."



Hey Rue,

I'm not saying that you're wrong from a scientific position, and in good part that's because I wouldn't ever claim to be qualified to do so. I do have a problem understanding how what you've quoted above is possible given a couple of cases that I'm personally familiar with.

I work with two individuals who between them have had three extremely premature children. Two of them were born at 22 weeks, and one was born at 24 (bear in mind, all of these are preterm to the extent that the infant has less than a 50% chance of survival, but that's another discussion). As I understand what is being said, all three of those children should not have developed the capability to feel pain until they reached at least the 29th week of gestational development, which would end up being 5 to 7 weeks after they were born. I will personally testify that such was not the case.

On the other hand, all three infants had to be given steroids and extraordinary medical support to allow them to develop enough to survive, but as far as I know, none of those measures should have affected their pain perception. Then again, as I said earlier, I'm *very* far from any kind of a medical authority.

Amiton.

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