Mandatory vaccinations vs. right to choose by canttakesky

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Mandatory vaccinations vs. right to choose

POSTED BY: CANTTAKESKY
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 6, 2006 21:56
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Friday, December 1, 2006 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
For the record, I will say yet again, I do not support the position that vaccines are useless. I don't support that they are highly useful. But that doesn't automatically mean I think they are useless. I see the same pressure to force me into an extremist position as Rue's accusations. If I am not FOR vaccines, then I must be against them. It simply is not true.

People think that you are saying vaccines are useless because that's how you come across. With one hand you say "I'm not saying vaccines are useless" and with the other presenting evidence that you say proves vaccines don't work. People reading can only say "so erm, which is it?" and given that you say you don't think they're useless, while your actions come across as if you do...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Friday, December 1, 2006 4:37 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
With one hand you say "I'm not saying vaccines are useless" and with the other presenting evidence that you say proves vaccines don't work. People reading can only say "so erm, which is it?" and given that you say you don't think they're useless, while your actions come across as if you do...

As I recall, I have made 2 general points:
1. There is no good science that PROVES vaccines are highly effective for a vast majority of people. I try to follow that up with the qualifier that says: It doesn't mean vaccines are not effective, just that there is no proof.

The logic should be apparent that there is a difference between an assertion that there is no proof of effectiveness and an assertion that effectiveness doesn't exist at all. I never made the latter.

2. Vaccines and herd immunity DO fail in unexpected ways.

The logic should be apparent that there is a difference between an assertion that vaccines and herd immunity do fail in ways we couldn't predict and an assertion that vaccines and herd immunity always fail. I never made the latter.

Here is the crux of the matter, Cit. It is the "you are either with us, or you are against us" attitude. It is like with the fundies. If you question whether God exists, it automatically gets interpreted as an attack on God and a statement that God DOESN'T exist. That reflex blurs statements which should otherwise be apparently clear.

When Bush made that type of statement, it immediately polarized the country. If you weren't comfortable with his war on terrorism policies, then you were unpatriotic and oppose ALL terrorist interventions. There is no in-between.

Likewise, that sort of "either for us, or against us" attitude in vaccination automatically polarizes the debate. If you aren't comfortable with vaccination doctrine ("vaccines are highly effective and safe for the vast majority of recipients" and "benefits far outweigh the risks"), then you must be anti-vaccine and think vaccines are always useless and harmful. It is an artificial dichotomy and it is not accurate.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

P.S. My smallpox research is taking longer than I had expected. Sorry.
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Must the citizen ever for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men first, and subjects afterward.
--Henry David Thoreau, On Civil Disobedience

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Friday, December 1, 2006 9:49 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Citizen,

That's the issue I have. CTS Says there is no proof that vaccines are effective and harmless. She goes further and says disease is harmless and vaccination harmful. And then she links to anti-vaccination sites. The total effect is anti-vaccination, no matter what label she uses on herself.

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Saturday, December 2, 2006 5:59 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
CTS Says there is no proof that vaccines are effective and harmless. She goes further and says disease is harmless and vaccination harmful. And then she links to anti-vaccination sites.

Copy and paste please.

I have only linked to published journals and 3 vaccine choice sites, none of which is anti-vaccine (anti-vaccine = telling people NOT to vaccinate).

I don't know how many times or how many ways I can say this. DON'T MAKE SHIT UP ABOUT WHAT I SAY. My patience with your libel is wearing very thin. When you start to flat out LIE, there is no more debate. This is the last time Rue. You do it again, and you and I are through talking.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

------
Don't make shit up about what I say.
--CTS

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Monday, December 4, 2006 8:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY

My little segment on smallpox is posted on the new thread I started to continue this thread:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=25661&m=420214#420214

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

----------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
--Anatole France

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 6:25 PM

DREAMTROVE

Choice. Vaccinators could be wrong.
Not too long ago there was an anti-hepatitis program here.

There were three choices: take the vaccine, take a genetically engineered anti-body, or do nothing. I took the genengineered jobbie because I knew the risks or blood-derived products, and because i believe in technology. As a result, I don't have hepatitis.

A lot of people opted not to take it, and a whole bunch of them now have hepatitis.

A fair number of people opted to take the vaccine, which turned out to be infected with HIV. It sucks to be them right now.

Anything can happen. Vaccine=good is not a guarantee. People have to weight the options and decide, and it's not only religious weirdness that is involved, though religious weirdness has saved the mennonites and the muslims a world of hurt.

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Wednesday, December 6, 2006 9:56 PM

SASSALICIOUS

I'm vaccinated up the wazoo--some were mandatory and the rest are because I travel.

I personally don't care one way or the other on this issue, but I do wish that schools would actually look at a person's immunization record before demanding yet another shot. I'm thinking of tetanus. Florida made me get a booster in 8th grade and I KNOW I wasn't due for another one yet.

My age group made it out of school without having to get the hepatitis vaccinations and I'm still alive. Though I have since chosen to get them . . .

I do avoid the flu shot because I'm not susceptible to it as I'm not old, I'm not a child, and I'm not asthmatic.

Rue, you are essentially right on the immune system. The thymus in young children is much larger and once an individual hits puberty, it shrinks. The thymus is what is responsible for "educating" T cells, so to speak.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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