REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Illegal immigration

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, September 27, 2021 08:23
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Saturday, March 25, 2006 6:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


My first reaction to the demonstrations has been less than generous. People demand to be legalized just because they want it? Most other nations have strict immigation laws, so why should the US be singled out to throw open its borders? The large grafitti-covered neighborhoods where homies speak Spanglish with north Mexican drawl makes me think we haven't absorbed the last couple of generations yet.

Don't get me wrong- my dad was an immigrant. My SO immigrated to the USA. My grandparents on my mom's side were immigrants. My SO walked out of Hungary in 1956 and was plunked into second grade not speaking a lick of English. Now he works as a computer/ engineering guru for a major university. But they were LEGAL immigrants. They worked hard and they assimilated.

And then aside from feelings of cultural lifeboatism, there's the whole issue of having a whole population of desperate workers. Why export your business when you've got a foreign, intimidated population right at home? Illegal immigration is good for agribusiness, homeowners who want to pay rock-bottom dollar for a 24-7 nanny, and construction companies but does it do any good for the average US worker to be competing on those grounds?

But I don't think the law that was passed will work.

Your thoughts?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:36 PM

DONTCALLMELAWRENCE


First off I just want to say that I got caught in the huge march in downtown LA this weekend. Not because I wanted to be, but because I had to go down to the garment district. Something that should have taken 1 hour took 4.

now tell me if I’m wrong, because I am not noted for my grasp of current events, but this is my understanding of this whole thing:

they are protesting because they are being called/made criminals for immigrating ILLEGAL.

And this is just something that bothers me...

people say all the illegal immigrant in California are good "because they do jobs americans won't do." This is not true. I have cousins who can't move out here because they cannot find work largely due to the fact that those jobs are held by illegal immigrants.

I'm not against immigration or anything, but it does seem stupid to be upset about something illegal being made... illegal.

Lawrence

****************************
Tom: The men from 2nd Maine are being fed, sir.

Lawrence: Don’t call me sir.

Tom: Well, Lawrence, Great God A-Mighty–

Lawrence: You just be careful of that name business in front of the men. Listen, we don’t want anybody to think there’s favoritism.

Tom: General Meade has his son as his ajutant.

Lawrence: That’s different. Generals can do anything. Nothing quite so much like God on earth as a general on a battlefield.

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 10:23 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by DontCallMeLawrence:
And this is just something that bothers me...

people say all the illegal immigrant in California are good "because they do jobs americans won't do." This is not true. I have cousins who can't move out here because they cannot find work largely due to the fact that those jobs are held by illegal immigrants.



Well a more accurate quote is that they can't hire an American for the amount they are willing to pay. This isn't just a matter of the immigrant working for lower pay, by using undocumented workers employers can cut taxes, social security, insurance and other overheads from the equation that they couldn't legally do with an American.

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Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:37 AM

DREAMTROVE


Sygnym,

I really agree.

Open immigration has been an invitation to disaster in other countries, and litterally the end for South Africa. Anyone who's studied the whole S.A. imigration nightmare, or even paid attention, should see the potential for badness. It's not like Mexico is zimbabwe, but it does border countries like Guatamala which more or less are.

My grandmother came here to escape the Nazis. As a Czech princess, she was also on the list of enemies of the great social revolution. Living on a town on the German border during the 30s, they began to be worried and sent her and a now dead aunt to America. They were right, everyone who stayed behind got killed.

This is one of two situations that I can see immigration as being a oksy. The other is when people come here to go to school, for a particular decent job, or are in some way clearly going to be a benefit to the society. Otherwise you get what Europe is getting now, which is a flood of people whose intent is to be a drain on the system.

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Sunday, March 26, 2006 1:50 PM

RUSSELL


Ill put my 2 cents in on this because I have been directly effected by illegal workers in this country.

Ive been doing construction work for nearly 15 years. I started off in Michigan and moved to Las Vegas about 7 years ago. I do concrete construction work. Ive done everything from laborer, finisher, form carpenter and foreman. I was working for a company that I absolutely hated. I finally put in my notice and decided to take a month off from work. The field supervisor at the company and I are good friends. He would NEVER give me a bad referal and we still hang out at least a couple times a month.

After my short vacation I went out looking for another job. I should have had one lined up ahead of time but I have a nice nest egg in the bank and finding another job wasnt a big worry. I started out looking for a concrete finisher job or a foreman job. After about a week of no luck I switched over to "anything". After around 3 weeks of with no luck I lowered my requested $ amount considerably and started submitting applications right from the beginning of the list all over again.

After another 2 or 3 weeks I realized that I wasnt going to get a job in this town. I know for a fact that my friend, the field supervisor, would be giving me a good referance. He told me that he only recieved 2 phone calls about me in the entire 2 months (+/-) that I was putting in applications (150+ applications). Im a clean cut white guy, 35 years old, good physical condition, a nice truck, my own tools, i can read blueprints (and have been for 10 years), i dont drink or smoke or do drugs, Im a nice guy, and there is almost nothing in concrete construction that I cant do and havent done.

I came to the conclusion that the problem was, Im a white guy that doesnt speak spanish. These construction companies are all made up of 50%+ mexican guys that dont speak a word of english. Then theres 25% that speak broken english and another 20% that speak spanish and english, then theres the 5% black and white guys that either speak english only or both english and spanish. The guys get hired, work their way up to foreman or some other management position and they dont want to hire a non-spanish speaking white guy.

All of these guys make good money in this town. From the low/mid-teens (laborer wages) to the $30+ range. These guys arent paid pennies on the dollar, they are paid regular (MAYBE a bit less) construction wages. And 90% of them have social security cards, driver licenses, etc... Ive been told many times that getting a social security number/card isnt hard, and most of the illegal construction workers have one.

So, my feeling about this is that these politicians that say "illegal immagrants that do jobs americans dont want" is rediculous. They may be jobs that their rich, cadilac driving, $1k suit wearing friends and kids dont want but they are jobs that alot of us would LOVE to have. All of these manufacturing jobs that have been lost, automobile and whatnot, where are those people going to find jobs? What about all of us that DONT have a college education? What about the kids fresh out of high-school that arent going to college? What about all the unemployed homeless people on the streets of Las Vegas? What about all the kids starting kindergarden that dont speak a word of english?

In my opinion these politicians live so far above lower/middle class that they dont even know about the real problems from illegal immagrants. "The jobs that americans dont want" are few and far between. In fact I dont even know what one of those jobs would be?

This isnt just a Las Vegas problem either. This is every southern state and quickly making its way north its way north. California, Texas, Arizona, Florida, etc... Go to any construction site and see how many mexican guys there are. Then count how many of them speak english, then (I dont know if this is possible) do a background check and see how many of them are here legally. Its a terrible thing thats happening and from what Ive heard on the news from both Republicans and Democrats its not going to get better any time soon. They just dont understand the scope of the problem or even what the real problem even is.

Hell, right here in Las Vegas the #1 watched news program is a news show on the spanish speaking channel. Its not even in english... that should be a pretty good indicator that things are getting out of hand. I went to McDonalds a couple weeks ago and had to have part of my order translated into spanish for the girl at the register for crap sakes. Im all for legal immagration but we need to get rid of all these illegal aliens and start putting the National Gaurd to use patrolling our borders.

And I can say with no hesitation that most of these illegal aliens couldnt care less about the United States. Ive heard "This isnt my country (laugh)..." many times and believe me, if you could see all the trash left on the ground after a lunch break at a normal construction site around here you would believe they mean it.

Ok, thats the end of my rant. This post will probably offend some people but... thats how I see it.

Cheers
rl

p.s. I now make about 80% of what I was making from construction doing internet marketing.

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Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:11 PM

DREAMTROVE


You make some excellent points here Russell.

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Monday, March 27, 2006 6:25 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


SignyM,

I want to start out by saying I generally avoid doing more than reading any of the posts in this area. I try not to post my thoughts in political discussions to avoid the running flame wars that normally accompany such topics. I say this so you and everyone else will realize just how serious a problem I think illegal immigration is becoming in the U.S.

I truly that believe that illegal immigration is a serious threat to our economy & our way of life. I agree w/ what Fletch2 said:

Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
Well a more accurate quote is that they can't hire an American for the amount they are willing to pay. This isn't just a matter of the immigrant working for lower pay, by using undocumented workers employers can cut taxes, social security, insurance and other overheads from the equation that they couldn't legally do with an American.



Businesses are always looking for ways to cut what they spend & boost their profits and one of those ways is to hire illegals. As Fletch said it allows these employers to pay a much lower wage, avoid paying taxes, paying social security, and eliminates benifits & insurance cost as these workers are undocumented illegals. This causes problems in that these are jobs that legal citizens of the U.S. can not get and many of these illegals send a good portion of the money they make back to their families in their country of origin. This of course is bad for our economy as money earned here is not being spent here.

Another issue I draw w/ illegal immigration, specifically from Mexico, is that the Mexican government, especially President Fox, seems to fully support it. They even encouraged the printing & distribution of a comic book that details how to illegally enter the U.S. For Fox & his government it is a win-win situation as they get unemployed workers out of their country so they are no longer the responsibility of the Mexican government, and the Mexican economy benefits from the influx of U.S. dollars sent home to families left behind by these illegal immigrants.

The U.S. government seems content to do nothing to stem the tide of illegals entering from Mexico either. The Minuteman project clearly illustrated for all of us how grossly unprotected our border w/ Mexico truly is today. Border agents patrol a border over 1,600 miles long with a relative handful of agents. In many places there is no wall or fence so it is merely a matter of walking across the border.

Dubya is now working to push his amnesty bill through which will allow all the illegals here to stay. His private meetings w/ Fox at Bush's ranch in Texas just work to assure me that business, the federal government, and the Mexican government are all in this together. All of them will do whatever is necessary to put money in their pockets.

I am not against immigrants coming here. Hell, all of us were immigrants at some point no matter how long our families have been here (unless you are native american of course), but I think they should become legal citizens, pay taxes, contribute to the community and all just as the rest of us do. There should also be a push to learn the english language to communicate w/ others effectively & for their children to interact in school. I don't think it is right that the rest of society should have to conform to their lack of desire to learn the common language. If I move to France to live you can bet I will learn french rather than expect everyone else to conform to me & learn english.

I fully agree w/ what the Minuteman Project did & can only say I am saddened by how Dubya and his cronies responded to the public demand that something be done about our borders. He claims he wants to protect us from terrorists & is sending American soldiers off to die in foreign lands, yet he leaves our entire southern border completely exposed. That seem right to you?

I look forward to everyone's comments.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Monday, March 27, 2006 6:45 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I am saddened by how Dubya and his cronies responded to the public demand that something be done about our borders. He claims he wants to protect us from terrorists & is sending American soldiers off to die in foreign lands, yet he leaves our entire southern border completely exposed.

Ah-ha! Another left-wing commie out to bash Bush and condem his perfect plans for this great country. If you can't see how Dubya's helping this land, why not move to another? *smirk*

Okay. Ya got me...
Ithought it would be more interesting than...Ummm, I agree.



But someone will say it for real, I'm sure Chrisisall

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Monday, March 27, 2006 7:19 AM

KUANGZHEDE


I live in Charlotte N.C., and here are a few issues I have with illegal immigration here.

1- Free healthcare
2- Free school
3- License without proof of citizenship
4- Can not be prosecuted for any crime unless it is "violent"
5- 2 INS agents for both NC and SC.
6- If arrested, they are let go and asked to please go to Atlanta for their INS hearing (no one goes)
7- 5 out of the 10 drunk driving murders this year, so far, have been by illegal immigrants.





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Monday, March 27, 2006 9:50 AM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

(unless you are native american of course), but I think they should become legal citizens, pay taxes, contribute to the community and all just as the rest of us do. There should also be a push to learn the english language to communicate w/ others effectively & for their children to interact in school.


I agree with everything all of you have said, I have an international studies class and the main focus this semester has been about the border, I'm going to take all of you guys post and make copies for the class to read.

I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.

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Monday, March 27, 2006 10:05 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Browncoat1, I need to ask: Do you (or did you) belong to a union?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Monday, March 27, 2006 11:25 AM

KUANGZHEDE


In regards to corporations:

GE and Bank of America do not employ any illegal immigrants. The real problem is with small businesses trying to curtail the cost of well...cost. Sorry if this burst any "Leftist" conspiracy about corperations being all corperty.




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Monday, March 27, 2006 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, you must not be thinking of Walmart, or of all those subcontracted janitorial, clothes mfr, security, "stoop" labor, and assembly services that the big corporations use to wash their hands of the illgal problem ... while still taking advantage of the lower cost.

You would think that even something like a refinery would be a little pickier about their plant operations and keep experience staff. Nah....

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Monday, March 27, 2006 6:05 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


You won't see Bush & Co doing anything about illegal immigration other than whitewashing it into legality. Business stands to loose too much profit doing business the legal way. That's b/c it's not 'the government AND business' taking advantage; it's 'the government IS business' taking advantage.


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Monday, March 27, 2006 7:49 PM

MANOFWAR


My post is about immigration, in general. Here's what I think.

Illegal Immigration:
-------------------
1) The size of the 500,000 person protest in L.A. itself demonstrates the problem. There are so many illegals, and they face so little threat of deportation, that they have political clout. They actually protest infront of Congress. This is frightening. Foreigners should not have political influence on our policies & laws.

2) Over the years I've noticed from my reading that illegals around the U.S. make $8-10/hr. In fact, this week or last, Business Week mag. had an article on illegals working at a carpet factory in Georgia, where they make $7/hr. The U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty level for a family of 4 to be about $19k/yr., which is just under $10/hr for a 40 hour week. This says, an American who wants to compete for these jobs has to put his family into poverty. For comparison, when I was in high school over 20 years I had a part time job making $7/hr. It is therefore not true there are no Americans who want these jobs - they just can't afford them.

Legal Immigration:
-----------------
1) U.S. population growth is driven by immigration, both legal & illegal. The U.S. will have a population of 400 million by 2050, and 1 billion by 2100, unless immigration is greatly reduced. Just look at China & India for reasons this is bad, not to mention the growing competition for oil made worse by a growing population. At the time of the first Earth Day in 1970, the U.S. had reached replacement fertility - 2.1 children/family. Since then, immigrants from poor countries have caused our fertility rate to grow.

2) Water supplies in the U.S. are depleting, due to growing demand, caused by a growing population. Battles between western cities like Las Vegas, L.A., and Phoenix are escalating. Farmers are having a harder time each year pumping water for irrigation. As a result, the U.S. will soon become a net food importing country, which puts us at risk of political pressure.

3) Legal immigrants to the U.S. working in technology under the H1-B visa program are pushing wages down - simple market supply & demand. The number has varied each year, but has averaged about 100,000/yr, and they get to stay for 6 years. Most get a green card and stay forever. This has the same effect as outsourcing, putting Americans out of work. Wage data from the Dept. of Labor shows wages have not risen for 20 years, suggesting industry claims of a shortage of engineers is not true.

'just my thoughts.
MoW

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:28 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
I live in Charlotte N.C., and here are a few issues I have with illegal immigration here.

1- Free healthcare
2- Free school
3- License without proof of citizenship
4- Can not be prosecuted for any crime unless it is "violent"
5- 2 INS agents for both NC and SC.
6- If arrested, they are let go and asked to please go to Atlanta for their INS hearing (no one goes)
7- 5 out of the 10 drunk driving murders this year, so far, have been by illegal immigrants.






We have a lot of the same problems here.

- free healthcare

- goverment assistance for living expenses

- free schooling w/ the added bonus that the school has to spring for spanish speaking teachers for every course & our children have been forced to take a mandatory Spanish class

I have not heard about them being free from prosecution on minor offenses, but I will check into Commonwealth laws to see what they say about it.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:31 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.




That is the rub.

I can sympathize & appreciate wanting a better life & standard of living for your family, but not at the expense of others. I would never dream of moving into another country illegally and then taking advantage of the system at the taxpayers expense.

Big business being in bed w/ big government only makes matters worse.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:32 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Browncoat1, I need to ask: Do you (or did you) belong to a union?




Nope. Why do you ask?

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:36 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
In regards to corporations:

GE and Bank of America do not employ any illegal immigrants. The real problem is with small businesses trying to curtail the cost of well...cost. Sorry if this burst any "Leftist" conspiracy about corperations being all corperty.





As Signym pointed out, Wal Mart is the worst about the employing of illegal immigrants. Of course being the weasels they are they are many layers removed from the actual "hiring" of these illegals & whent they are busted they claim ignorance & are not held accountable. There is also the fact that the money they dump into states & the large party they funded for the Bush victory in the last election makes them untouchable by the law for any immigration infractions.

Perhaps you have not heard about the Wal Mart store under construction in Vermont that got shut down because 90% + of the workers on the job site were illegals. Wal Mart claims ignorance so they escape all charges & fines, leaving the construction companies to burn alone.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 7:50 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by manofwar:
My post is about immigration, in general. Here's what I think.

Illegal Immigration:
-------------------
1) The size of the 500,000 person protest in L.A. itself demonstrates the problem. There are so many illegals, and they face so little threat of deportation, that they have political clout. They actually protest infront of Congress. This is frightening. Foreigners should not have political influence on our policies & laws.




What I don't understand is why Immigration didn't descend on this event w/ every agent they had, SWAT, the National Guard, and every police officer they could muster. This was their chance to catch all these illegals that the Federal gov't claims are too "slippery" to catch. Guess hiding in plain sight makes them too slippery.

Oh, wait. That's right. The federals don't care.


Quote:

Originally posted by manofwar:
2) Over the years I've noticed from my reading that illegals around the U.S. make $8-10/hr. In fact, this week or last, Business Week mag. had an article on illegals working at a carpet factory in Georgia, where they make $7/hr. The U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty level for a family of 4 to be about $19k/yr., which is just under $10/hr for a 40 hour week. This says, an American who wants to compete for these jobs has to put his family into poverty. For comparison, when I was in high school over 20 years I had a part time job making $7/hr. It is therefore not true there are no Americans who want these jobs - they just can't afford them.




Exactly the point!

I am so tired of the arguement that the jobs illegals take are the "ones Americans don't want". What a load of manure! It is not that we don't want them, it is that they don't pay enough to support our families. I can remember when $20k/year was a lot of money, but these days in Virginia it is below poverty level for a family of four. The county I live in requires a yearly income of nearly $50k/year due to the cost of living in this area. How can Americans do that off of less than $10/hr? A couple would have to work the equivalent of 3 full time jobs to break even.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 9:22 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
What I don't understand is why Immigration didn't descend on this event w/ every agent they had, SWAT, the National Guard, and every police officer they could muster. This was their chance to catch all these illegals that the Federal gov't claims are too "slippery" to catch. Guess hiding in plain sight makes them too slippery.

Oh, wait. That's right. The federals don't care.



Well, this is just speculation...but perhaps they figured that trying to arrest a half-million people all at one time and in the middle of America's largest cities could present a bit more of a problem then anyone could handle and could turn an otherwise mostly peaceful series of protests into full blown riots.

If you get forty illegals in one place, its easy to surround them, arrest them, detain them, process them, and deport them in an efficient manner. If its forty thousand...its a tad more difficult.

H

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:30 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


A half-million people waving the Mexican flag and chanting "Si se puede" is not going to win over any converts. It tells me that they have mixed loyalities at best.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:21 PM

MILAGROBEAN



I'm pleased with the vote. Knowing the history of U.S involvement(manipulating of the political process/stomping/murdering/pillaging) in Latin America---really where did any armchair political analyst think the oppressed, the dispossessed, and impoverished would wind up going? Too late for shaking fists now.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/28/politics/28immig.html?pagewanted=1&_
r=1



WASHINGTON, March 27 — With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation's 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.

The panel also voted to create a vast temporary worker program that would allow roughly 400,000 foreigners to come to the United States to work each year and would put them on a path to citizenship as well.

The legislation, which the committee sent to the full Senate on a 12-to-6 vote, represents the most sweeping effort by Congress in decades to grant legal status to illegal immigrants. If passed, it would create the largest guest worker program since the bracero program brought 4.6 million Mexican agricultural workers into the country between 1942 and 1960.

Any legislation that passes the Senate will have to be reconciled with the tough border security bill passed in December by the Republican-controlled House, which defied President Bush's call for a temporary worker plan.

The Senate panel's plan, which also includes provisions to strengthen border security, was quickly hailed by Democrats, a handful of Republicans and business leaders, as well as by the immigrant advocacy organizations and church groups that have sent tens of thousands of supporters of immigrant rights into the streets of a number of cities to push for such legislation in recent days.

But even as hundreds of religious leaders and others rallied on the grounds of the Capitol on Monday, chanting "Let our people stay!," the plan was fiercely attacked by conservative Republicans who called it nothing more than an offer of amnesty for lawbreakers. It remained unclear Monday night whether Senator Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader, would allow the bill to go for a vote this week on the floor or would substitute his own bill, which focuses on border security. His aides have said that Mr. Frist, who has said he wants a vote on immigration this week, would be reluctant to move forward with legislation that did not have the backing of a majority of the Republicans on the committee.

Only 4 of the 10 Republicans on the committee supported the bill. They were the committee chairman, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, and Senators Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, Mike DeWine of Ohio and Sam Brownback of Kansas. All eight Democrats on the committee voted in favor of the legislation.

The rift among Republicans on the committee reflects the deep divisions in the party as business groups push to legalize their workers and conservatives battle to stem the tide of illegal immigration. Mr. Specter acknowledged the difficulties ahead, saying, "We are making the best of a difficult situation." But he said he believed that the legislation would ultimately pass the Senate and would encourage the millions of illegal immigrants to come out of the shadows.

"We do not want to create a fugitive class in America," Mr. Specter said after the vote. "We do not want to create an underclass in America."

"I think this represents a reasonable accommodation," he said, referring to the divergent views on the panel. "It's not a majority of the majority, but it's a good number."

Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, said Monday night that President Bush was "pleased to see the Senate moving forward on legislation." Mr. Bush has repeatedly called for a temporary worker program that would legalize the nation's illegal immigrants, though he has said such a plan must not include amnesty.

"It is a difficult issue that will require compromise and tough choices, but the important thing at this point is that the process is moving forward," Mr. McClellan said.

Lawmakers central to the immigration debate acknowledged that the televised images of tens of thousands of demonstrators, waving flags and fliers, marching in opposition to tough immigration legislation helped persuade the panel to find a bipartisan compromise.

"All of those people who were demonstrating were not necessarily here illegally," said Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, who sponsored the legalization measures with Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts. Mr. Kennedy described the people who would benefit from the bill as "our neighbors," adding: "They're churchgoers. They're the shop owners down the street. They're the people we know."

The protesters were rallying in opposition to the security bill passed by the House. The House bill would, among other things, make it a federal crime to live in this country illegally, turning the millions of illegal immigrants here into felons, ineligible to win any legal status. (Currently, living in this country without authorization is a violation of civil immigration law, not criminal law.)

The legislation passed by the Judiciary Committee on Monday also emphasized border security and would nearly double the number of Border Patrol agents over the next five years, criminalize the construction of tunnels into the United States from another country and speed the deportation of illegal immigrants from countries other than Mexico. But it also softened some of the tougher elements in the House legislation.

Addressing one of the most contentious issues, the panel voted to eliminate the provisions that would criminalize immigrants for living here illegally and made an amendment to protect groups and individuals from being prosecuted for offering humanitarian assistance to illegal immigrants.

Conservatives on the committee warned that the plan would generate a groundswell of opposition among ordinary Americans who had been demanding tighter controls at the border and an end to the waves of illegal immigration.

Senator Jeff Sessions, Republican of Alabama, said the Judiciary panel "let the American people down by passing out a blanket amnesty bill."

Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, said the foreign workers would take American jobs during a recession. "Get ready for a real tough time," Mr. Kyl said, "when American workers come to your office and say, 'How did you let this happen?' "

Under the proposal, participants in the temporary worker program would have to work for six years before they could apply for a green card. Any worker who remained unemployed for 60 days or longer during those six years would be forced to leave the country. (Employers could petition for permanent residency on behalf of their employees six months after the worker entered into the program.)

The legalization plan for the nation's illegal immigrants would require those without documents to work in the United States for six years before they could apply for permanent residency. They could apply for citizenship five years after that. Immigrants would have to pay a fine, back taxes and learn English.

Mr. Graham called it an 11-year journey to citizenship.

"To me that's not amnesty," he said. "That is working for the right over an 11-year period to become a citizen. It is not a blanket pardon."

"The president believes and most of us here believe that the 11 million undocumented people are also workers," Mr. Graham said. "We couldn't get by as a nation without those workers and without those people."





milagrobean

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:27 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
I sympathize with the immigrants I understand that they want a better life, but on the other hand why should it be at our expense. The facts are the corporations don't want them here llegally, because then they would have to pay a higher wage, taxes, healthcare etc. illegal workers benifit the Corporations and businesses, while driving wages down for U.S workers and its putting a squeeze on the middle class, I'm also tired of the argument that, Americans don't want to do the jobs that illegal immigrants to, if they paid a fair wage Americans would do just about any job for the right price.




That is the rub.

I can sympathize & appreciate wanting a better life & standard of living for your family, but not at the expense of others. I would never dream of moving into another country illegally and then taking advantage of the system at the taxpayers expense.

Big business being in bed w/ big government only makes matters worse.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org




I agree while I do sympathize I don't do it at my own exspense either and I to would never dream of coming to another country illegally, but on the other hand I don't come from a third world country like Mexico, the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:45 PM

MILAGROBEAN


Republican Split on Immigration Reflects Nation's Struggle http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/29/national/29policy.html?pagewanted=2

There does seem to be a precedent in the US--when the chips are down, blame the immigrants! My guess-- this is the first world power military occupations thru the centuries karma blues.

milagrobean

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:50 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

Darlin', that is gonna happen regardless. It's in the wacky rich interests that it does. Cheaper labour, more consumers, more potential soldiers...etc.

Chrisisallmovin'toAustrailia(as an illegal)

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 5:57 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by milagrobean:
this is the first world power military occupations thru the centuries karma blues.


I must agree; Blow up the Japanese cities- the come here and buy our companies. Kill thousands and thousands of Central Americans- they move here. Lay mines in Vietnam- Vietnamese look for education and jobs here. Attack the Middle East- they control our Seven-Elevens....

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 10:47 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country

Darlin', that is gonna happen regardless. It's in the wacky rich interests that it does. Cheaper labour, more consumers, more potential soldiers...etc.

Chrisisallmovin'toAustrailia(as an illegal)



YES YES YES!!! Chrisisal you hit the nail on the head.

I was just saying to a friend of mine, what happens when people don't have a job and can't get work? they have two choices, turn to crime or join the military, They meaning the elitist who really run things are purposely creating this economic downfall to fuel more fodder for these on going wars, or better yet the prison system where slave labor is supreme!!

I'm seriously considering moving to Canada, legally of course but I get the ugly feeling that all this global, you know that saying you can run but you can't hide!!

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:41 AM

JONUS


I think everyone (excluding felons) has the right to live wherever they choose if it will better their life. I just don't think the government should be able to say "This person can live here, but that person can't." We have rapists and child molesters living in our neighborhoods but someone from Mexico can't? The government just wants to keep out any foreigners.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:18 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



This is just a general addition to the thread.

There's a danger in scapegoating. I wish everybody would try harder to make the distinction between being anti illegal-immigration and anti illegal-immigrant.

Hopefully, most people aren't thinking of them as one in the same. Hopefully they aren't hating the victims of a situation that is hardly desirable. If these people stay in their country, they starve. When they come here they have no rights, no protections, and poor wages. How easy could it be to leave your home and risk death to cross the border? They aren't doing it for kicks, and the ones I know...love America.

That said, illegal immigration is a problem. A big one. But as a couple of threads have already mentioned, its a problem that is benefitting businesses who so far, are not being pushed hard enough to stop hiring illegally.

If you stop the jobs, you stop the immigration. That's so much smarter than trying to wall off that whole border, or than making criminals out of people who try to help these immigrants in humanitarian ways(which, I believe was recenlty part of a Republican bill). How about this. Make criminals out of the people who are enticing the migration.

They are the ones bringing in the flood of desperate people, while slowly but surely making our own citizens more desperate.

If the lawmakers wanted to do something about this, they would enforce the businesses. They don't, and they won't. Instead, they'll pass some amnesty law(finally gutted of any good legislation) that will allow companies to continue to use immigrants, without affording them any true rights, or protections against business exploitation -- again, hurting the rest of us, by making it more desirable to hire immigrants. At the same time they'll continue to foster anti-immigrant sentiment by talking about needing to secure the borders against terrorists(forget the ports), or talking about the children of illegals getting free education...etc.

If we really care about this issue, then we should focus on the source of the problem. It's the money, not the people. The American Government and the Mexican government are most definitely on the same page with this one. The corporate lobbyists in washington are getting returns on their investment by not being legislated against, and Mexico is bringing in American dollars. We're the only ones losing.





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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 6:58 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

How easy could it be to leave your home and risk death to cross the border? They aren't doing it for kicks, and the ones I know...love America.



Thanks for focusing on the human aspect, Righteous9.

Chrisisall, recent Earth immigrant

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:04 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Well, this is just speculation...but perhaps they figured that trying to arrest a half-million people all at one time and in the middle of America's largest cities could present a bit more of a problem then anyone could handle and could turn an otherwise mostly peaceful series of protests into full blown riots.

If you get forty illegals in one place, its easy to surround them, arrest them, detain them, process them, and deport them in an efficient manner. If its forty thousand...its a tad more difficult.





I understand why they didn't do it, riots & all that, but do you think Immigration or the federals did anything at all to track these illegals at the end of the march, question any, photograph them, get plate #s, anything? We all know they didn't. Bush is too interested in securing minority votes for the Republican party so he won't risk upsetting Latinos, illegal or otherwise.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:10 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:

I agree while I do sympathize I don't do it at my own exspense either and I to would never dream of coming to another country illegally, but on the other hand I don't come from a third world country like Mexico, the down side is the U.S is endanger of becoming like a third world country



Wow. You keep with this sensible talk and you'll have to change your name...'HeroJenny'.

H

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:11 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
A half-million people waving the Mexican flag and chanting "Si se puede" is not going to win over any converts. It tells me that they have mixed loyalities at best.



Mixed loyalties? The majority give their loyalty to Mexico, not America.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org


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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:19 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
what happens when people don't have a job and can't get work? they have two choices, turn to crime or join the military,


Your coming along, but true conservatism requires imagination. I'll help you get started:

1. Turn to crime
2. Join the military.
3. Start a business.
4. Get an education.
5. Run for office.
6. Start a community service organization.
7. Become an activist.
8. Give up and die.
9. Live off the largess of others (including the government.
10. Keep trying, tomorrow will be better.

I'm sure you can come up with other ideas. Opportunity doesn't come to you...your supposed to find it. Look at me. College dropout with a dead-end secuirty job wasn't good enough, so I went back to school, then lawschool, now I get paid to put people in jail...I mean give valuable service to the community I love. I used option number '10'.

H

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:23 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
but do you think Immigration or the federals did anything at all to track these illegals at the end of the march, question any, photograph them, get plate #s, anything? We all know they didn't.



Some did, some did not. LA is getting a crapload of grief for issuing citations to persons photograghed at the demonstration. Also Latino radio and tv networks are under scuitiny for having orchestrated all this over the last month or so (although they did an excellent job).

H

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 10:46 AM

PHAEDRA


I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.

For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.

For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:12 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Phaedra:
For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.


Back in school the bigger kids, popular kids, the self-appointed privilaged kids tended to jump the lunch line. They made lots of noise, really stood out. Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.

It was wrong then and its wrong now. I suppose if the millions waiting for legal immigration had worldwide protests, then they'd deserve your consideration. Until then, they do not exist.

I have always thought the laws should be there to protect the people waiting in line, not the ones jumping ahead.

If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.

For the record, I think some form of guest worker program combined with strict enforcement (with harsh penalities for employers) and a temporary military presense on the Mexican border is the best solution. We can't move all the bad kids to the back of the line, but we oughta stop their buddies from joining them.

H

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:18 PM

MILAGROBEAN


Hero:"Back in school the bigger kids, popular kids, the self-appointed privilaged kids tended to jump the lunch line. They made lots of noise, really stood out. Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it."

That's just a ridiculous comparison. Protest marches for civil rights, womens' rights, workers' rights (like the one this week in France)are all about bullies yelling? Peaceful protests are not illegal. Illegal immigrants are not criminals---that piece of legislation wasn't passed this time around.

Phaedra, thanks for your post, the tone of the thread was a concern to me too. Good to hear from someone who was there and open to what was going on.

milagrobean

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:35 PM

FLETCH2


I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country. People that spend a considerable amount of time, money and frustration to come here and are being told that following the rules makes them losers, that if you break the law you can go to the head of the line.

I'm Anglo, and was married to an American eight years before we chose to come here. I was garenteed a visa, so I didn't have to wait for a lottery allocation. Still it took 4 months and probably $1000 in assorted costs to be allowed to come here with the transitional stamp in my passport. It took another year of charges and queuing to get a physical green card.

Like I said I had it easy but there are some people that spend thousands and wait years because they follow the rules. They are not out on the streets in LA because they are still in their country of origin gathering all the paperwork, medical reports, criminal background checks and other things the illegals never bothered with.

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Nobody heard from the smaller kids, the freshman, or the meek. They just stood in line and took it.


H

Speak for yourself. I studied Okinawan Kempo, and faced those jerks down, beat on a few when I had to.
But this isn't about bullies, it's about peeps looking to live. Maybe eat sometime this month. Maybe escape the poverty forced on them by this world.
If you, yourself, had ever been in a position of having to do something illegal to feed youself or your family, I might even take some of what you have to say on this matter seriously.
Attack the money-men, and the reasons for our failing economy, not the poor.

Oh. That's right. We can't do that.
Okay, let's pick on the weak, that's easier.



Uh-oh. Hero brings out the 'L' in Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
I believe Hero's point is that there are people that follow the rules and wait for years to legally enter the country.

Fletch, the difference is those people like yourself can afford to wait, and aren't starving. You had a choice, others feel they have none- go to where you CAN work, or lose your family.

(Not sayin' let EVERYBODY in- just tryin' to see it from a perspective other than my own)

Bored rich liberal white guy Chrisisall

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:31 PM

FLETCH2


*I* could afford to wait, there are others in desperate situations that can't but have to follow the rules because geography hasn't given them a common border with the US.

It's true there are people that steal because they are starving, but then there are people that would steal just because they can and others that won't steal even if they were starving. Who is more worthy of reward, the person that follows the rules even if it hurts him or the one that ignores those that are inconvenient.

I am sure there are folks waiting in subsaharan Africa for a green card allocation that are just as hungry and as desperate as anyone you could find in Mexico. I'm sure the Coyotes, the folks that make a very profitable business smuggling people are not cruising the alleys of Mexico city looking for folks that are needy. They take the ones that can pay, so I somehow doubt these folks are starving.


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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 4:17 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important




When my grandparents came over to the US from Cuba, my parents were of elementary school/junior-high school age.

In order to immigrate, My grandfathers had to prove that they had a basic understanding of English, show that they had 1,000 dollars in a US bank, and have a job waiting for them. I hesitate to imagine what 1,000 dollars back then (50's) equates to now. I know my grandfathers had to borrow a lot of money from friends and family to get that sum together.

Castro wasn't running Cuba at the time. My grandparents weren't fleeing the government or anything. They had jobs and houses in Cuba. (My mother's father worked for the Nicaro Nickel Company, a US mining corp in Cuba.) But they wanted to be Americans. They considered the United States to be the best place on Earth, and were prepared to sacrifice to be a part of it. They encouraged their children to learn English, and to love their new country.

After my grandparents immigrated, my Dad had a severe eye injury. He was flown to Cuba for surgery. (If you can believe it, the best eye hospital around was in Cuba at the time.) While he was there, he saw these odd mountain men with scraggly beards and .45's. He heard an officer on the radio talk about how people had been arrested as traitors to Castro, but once Castro heard about it, he was sure it'd be taken care of. Then he heard that same officer shoot himself on the air when news came in that Castro had confirmed condemnation of the man as a traitor.

My Dad was sworn in as a citizen the day Kennedy was assasinated. They announced it right before everyone was sworn in. He was sure it was a loyalty test. When he found out it was true, he was shattered. Totally shattered. It was like being told that God died. Well, maybe not quite, but close. The US president was held in reverence by many Americans at the time. Not so much anymore.

My Dad volounteered to join the Air Force when Vietnam was rolling. (Better than the infantry, he figured.) He was denied due to an eye injury. He was also interrogated for two months, and made to take several lie detector tests. (Being of Cuban descent was considered a bad thing at the time, due to the Commie taint.) He didn't complain. He holds no real ill will about it, but will share his experiences as a humorous anecdote.

I was taught as a lad to love my government and to fear the coming Third World War, a Nuclear Holocaust with Russia and Communism as the villain. We were all awfully surprised when the Soviet Union collapsed. Movies from the year before had become obsolete. Now Hollywood had to find new bogeymen for their films. The Hunt for Red October suffered from this. Rambo III is just ironic now. Sneakers came out just after the collapse, and makes mention of the 'changes in Russia.'

Things are different now. You've maybe heard that most major cities have a Chinatown. A massive concentration of chinese citizens in a section of the city that resembles Hong Kong, with chinese signs and chinese language everywhere. I grew up in Hialeah, next to Miami, Florida. We had Little Havana, and it's overflowing into many parts of Miami-Dade county. Miles of Billboards and shop signs in Spanish. It's like being in another country.

People aren't coming to the U.S. from Cuba because they want to be 'Americans.' They just don't want to be in an oppressive environment. Fine. I wouldn't want to live in Cuba either. Or Mexico, for that matter. But the mindset has changed. It's not "I want to be an American" anymore. It's "I want to get what I can get." The sense that you owe something to the U.S. for the wonderful gifts it gives you has somehow been lost. Immigrants don't seem to be as grateful, on the average, as my grandparents were. It's gone from "Thank God for the United States" and "What Can I Do To Serve My Country" to "Where's my Benefits?" and "What Can You Do To Serve Me?"

And that's the kind of attitude, I think, that builds resentment in the indiginous population.

I say go ahead and make all the illegals legal.

Then secure the border. Secure it tight. Make it like when my grandparents came over. Make people earn it BEFORE they get a Free Lunch card.

My two cents.

--Anthony

P.S. My father's viewpoints have evolved. He now watches our government with a skeptical eye, and worries about the Freedoms he was taught to love being stripped away. That's sad, too. It's sad to see outright love turn to caution. Unfortunately, it's warranted.

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 5:19 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


REAVER RED DAWN - FOR REAL


Illiterate Mexicans need geography lessons
www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49482

Quote:

HERO wrote:

If an illegal immigrant marches in a protest, they should be arrested and sent home. If they want a drivers license, sure come on down to the BMV and get arrested and sent home. If they show up at a public school or health clinic, arrest them, send them home. Logistics is the reason we don't do these things...but that don't make it right.



So THAT'S why they call him Hero. It's ok if he plagerized my previous argument over his prosecutions of speeding tickets vs US citizens, while ignoring 40-million criminal aliens. Criminal aliens can't get traffic tickets, since courts lack subject matter jurisdiction without a voluntary driver license contract. That's why traffic citations include a section for the driver license number, which is an "essential element" of the victimless non-crime. That's why Tennessee govt sold 250,000 "driver certificates" to ILLEGAL aliens, to cash in on this fact of law. Copsters also love shaking down illegal aliens to steal all their cash and drugs, knowing the illiterate wetbacks will (almost) never file criminal charges. Some US sheriffs are now arresting ILLEGAL aliens for "criminal trespass", regardless of whether the feds deport them or not.

Quote:

"A few weeks ago, one of Chamberlain's officers came upon Jorge Mora Ramirez, who was making a phone call from his car. Questioned by the officer, Ramirez, a 21-year-old who is Mexican, admitted he was in the country illegally, Chamberlain said. The chief called Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, but they declined to send someone over to pick up Ramirez. Chamberlain applied the only state statute he could think of. 'My position was: If Mr. Ramirez was in the country illegally, he was obviously in the town of New Ipswich illegally,' Chamberlain said. Police officers around the country have told Chamberlain that they plan to follow his example. Last week, Richard E. Gendron, the police chief in Hudson, N.H., cited two undocumented men for trespassing and said he intends to keep doing it."
-"How to arrest an illegal alien - N.H. Police Chief's Tactics Stira Storm on Immigration"
http://danielisright.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_danielisright_archive.htm
l


Attorney General Opinion 2000-1:
"There is substantial support for the position that the Penal Law and the Criminal Procedure Law, although explicitly referring only to state and local crimes, do not exclude federal crimes from the scope of authority granted to police officers and others to make warrantless arrests. New York State law enforcement officials may make arrests without warrants for criminal violations of the federal Immigration and Nationality Act. However, mere status as an alien, or even as an illegal alien, may only be a civil violation of the Act and thus would not be a sufficient basis for an arrest. For a valid arrest, the officer must have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a criminal violation of the INA, such as illegal entry into the United States, and not merely a civil violation, such as illegal presence in the country."
-Robert J. Cimino, County Attorney, County of Suffolk, Hauppauge, NY, March 21, 2000
www.oag.state.ny.us/lawyers/opinions/2000/informal/2000_1.html

Tennessee Code §40-7-109. Arrest by private person - Grounds.
(a) A private person may arrest another:
(1) For a public offense committed in the arresting person's presence;
(2) When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not in the arresting person's presence; or
(3) When a felony has been committed, and the arresting person has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed it.
www.megalaw.com/tn/tncode.php

citizen's arrest.
: an arrest made not by a law officer but by any citizen who derives the authority to arrest from the fact of being a citizen
Note: Under common law, a citizen may make an arrest for any felony actually committed, or for a breach of the peace committed in his or her presence.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com

civil arrest.
: the arrest and detention of a defendant in a civil suit until he or she posts bail or pays the judgment
(see also capias ad respondendum)
Note: Civil arrest is restricted or prohibited in most states.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com

civil contempt.
: contempt that consists of disobedience to a court order in favor of the opposing party
Note: The sanctions for civil contempt end upon compliance with the order.
http://dictionary.lp.findlaw.com
(CIVIL CONTEMPT OF COURT CARRIES A LIFE SENTENCE ON DEATH ROW IN DEBTORS PRISON FOR INABILITY TO PAY COURT COSTS IF YOU SIGN A CONTRACT WITH THE COURT IN ALL COURTS IN USA TODAY: COMMON EXAMPLES INCLUDE DIVORCE COURT AND TRAFFIC COURT)




700,000 criminal aliens celebrate their crimes in Lost Angeles - ZERO arrests, ZERO prosecutions, ZERO deporations

Quote:

"If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about 'taking jobs that Americans don't want' is such nonsense."
www.rense.com/general70/ddat.htm



40-million criminal cannibals invade USA - 100-million more on the way... Are you ready for Civil War?

Mexican ancestors, the Aztecs, genocided and cannibalized 20,000 slaves in 3-day festivals, feasting on their beating hearts. Many modern-day Mexican criminals also practice cannibalism - IN USA TODAY.

Quote:

"Aztec Cannibalism: An Ecological Necessity? The Aztec diet was adequate in protein and cannibalism would not have contributed greatly."
by Professor Bernard R. Ortiz de Montellano
www.latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/montellano.htm



Notice how the anti-American globalists organized 700,000 CRIMINALS in an ILLEGAL public parade, while police refused to make a single arrest? But Cindy Sheehan, whose son was murdered in Iraq, wears a T-shirt printed with "Remember Our Troops" to a public event (for which she bought a ticket), and Junior Bush illegally orders HER arrest. Bush Jr, the Butcher of 9/11, ordered AMNESTY for 40-million criminal TERRORISTS in USA today.

This TREASON is orchestrated from the White House, Congress and their international masters. Mexicans make better slaves than middle class Americans. They don't know their legal rights, and can't even read about their legal rights - so they have NONE.

USA is to be Balkanized and broken up, just like Yugoslavia and Iraq, and is already merged with Mexico and Canada via NAFTA SHAFTA slave contract. NAFTA also legalizes massive sex-slave trading and dope dealing by CIA and Bush White House.

Quote:

'Immigration Protests' Cover For Racist Ethnic Cleansing Movement

Atzlan and Mexican Klan groups rejoice at start of 'la reconquista'



Mexican flag flies at LA City Hall

Paul Joseph Watson
www.PrisonPlanet.com UK
March 29 2006

At the height of last year's French riots, Voz de Aztlan leader Ernesto Cienfuegos stated that similar scenes of chaos would be witnessed on the streets of America. As reports of violence begin to filter through, a deliberately fomented race war hiding behind an immigration debate creeps ever closer.

"Today, here in Los Angeles, we are already seeing ominous signs of an impending social explosion that will make the French rebellion by Muslim and immigrant youths seem 'tame' by comparison," said Cienfuegos on November 8.

"All the ingredients are present including a hostile and racist police as in France. In fact, we came close to having major riots on three separate occasions just this year alone."

As the mainstream controlled media reports the immigration protests as peaceful and affords them a wealth of credence and credibility, ignoring the plethora of foreign flags compared to US flags, turn to Mexican TV news stations and you will encounter radical proselytizing about enacting the brutal plan on the invasion and takeover of the southern American states.



Aztlan's goal, known as la reconquista, is to cede and take over the entirety of the southern states by any means necessary and impose a Communist militant dictatorship.


Mexican Communists hold portraits of Jewish founders of Communism Lenin, Engels and Marx during a protest against the privatization of the energy industry in Mexico City Monday Feb. 16, 2004. Thousands of workers marched through the city's main streets protesting against the government proposal to privatize the energy industry. (AP Photo/Jose Luis Magana)

President Bush's blanket amnesty program goes a long way to helping the extremists achieve their aim.
www.stoptheftaa.org/artman/publish/article_91.shtml

Despite the fact that the majority of documented Hispanics oppose illegal immigration, as do the majority of Americans, Aztlan and La Raca race hate groups have become the self-appointed voice for a separatist movement that threatens a violent overthrow of the Constitutional system and a barbaric program of ethnic cleansing. This is held up by the media as 'diversity' and to vociferously oppose it is scorned as racism.

Aztlan and Mecha groups advocate killing all whites and blacks and driving them out of the southern states by means of brutal ethnic cleansing.
www.americanpatrol.com/MECHA/MEChAindex.html
www.azteca.net/aztec/mecha/

In Spanish, the word mecha means fuse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEChA

www.csus.edu/org/mecha/top.swf
Flash: MECHA logo with bomb fuze in buzzard's mouth

Flags and placards carried at marches depict white people having their heads cut off, as seen in the picture below.


MECHA's and Germany's Plan of San Diego orders genocide of all white males over age 16 in USA

Those that protest such groups are then attacked by the establishment media and labeled as racists, despite the fact that the Plan of San Diego, a rallying cry for the Hispanic Klan groups, advocates total eradication of any race but Hispanics.
www.infowars.net/Pages/Sept05/200905TCRR_attacks_Alex.htm

Mecha's own slogan reads, "For the race everything. For those outside the race, nothing."

TV stations owned by rich white industrialists erect giant billboards in Los Angeles claiming the city belongs to Mexico, as seen below.


Clear Channel Jews fund 700 billboards in Lost Angeles promoting TREASON - ZERO arrests

Mainstream Hispanics who love America abhor the virulent racism that the Mexican Klan groups embrace.

And who bankrolls these pocket radicals? Billionaire tax-exempt foundations and NGO's owned by white men. Organizations like the Ford Foundation, groups who are zealous in their quest to eliminate the middle class and destroy America, turning it into a cashless society, compact city, surveillance control grid where only two tiers of society exist - the elite and the poor slaves.

The Atzlan website today carries the following comments.

"If the racist "Sensenbrenner Legislation" passes the US Senate, there is no doubt that a massive civil disobedience movement will emerge. Eventually labor union power can merge with the immigrant civil rights and "Immigrant Sanctuary" movements to enable us to either form a new political party or to do heavy duty reforming of the existing Democratic Party. The next and final steps would follow and that is to elect our own governors of all the states within Aztlan."
www.aztlan.net/la_gran_marcha.htm

Here is the open call for violent separatism and the overthrow of existing state government structures.

A sizeable proportion of the secular humanist Westerners who like to think of themselves as part of the establishment, when in reality they are unwitting tools of the true elite, have bought into the cuddly utopian philosophy that the West is a global village which welcomes all comers and has the enlightened innate ability to homogenize millions of different people of all different colors and creeds into one giant melting pot.

The reality couldn't be further from the truth and last year's images of flaming buses, schools, nurseries, terror and panic in France betray that fact. Protests over changes in employment laws have flared into riots and we are now witnessing similar scenes on the streets of Paris as we saw last November.

The real power behind the clash of civilizations lies with Globalists, in whose interest it is to foment race wars. Their vision of the Western world can best be described as a corporate fascist high tech slave plantation, with all the proles packed into high rise compact cities. The middle class simply won't exist.

Every major minority movement throughout history has been infiltrated and steered by the elite in an attempt to obtain these objectives.

The elite want us to be at each others throats while they dominate over the downtrodden and befuddled warring tribes. Race is the ultimate touchstone hot button issue and the Globalists have enacted policies of rampant uncontrolled immigration in order to force hostile cultures to intermingle. The outcome is always tribal warfare, as we saw in Bosnia and Kosovo.

The Mexican Klan must be opposed at every turn if we are to prevent America being fed to the dogs of racial purity and ethnic cleansing, an ideology that was supposedly defeated in 1940's Germany but is openly called for today while the groups carrying it out are protected and funded by the establishment.

www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/immigration_protest_cover_for_ra
cist_ethnic_cleansing.htm




"It's a question stirring debate in legislatures in North Carolina and across the country: Should illegal immigrants be allowed to get driver's licenses? They can now in North Carolina and 22 other states."
'Giving an illegal alien a driver's license gives him a virtual foot in the door for remaining in the United States illegally,' said David Ray, associate director of FAIR. A license, Ray said, 'allows them to blend into American society and remain invisible to immigration authorities, whose job it is to send them back home.'"
—Charlotte Observer, "Illegal alien, legal driver? N.C. legislature wants to make license applicants prove they are in the U.S. legally," May. 25, 2003
www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/local/5940846.htm

"The state in early 2001 began awarding driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants. More than 180,000 were issued before post-Sept. 11 fears about proof of identity set in. In 2004, Tennessee was the first state to launch a certificate program to satisfy homeland security concerns. Since then, more than 51,000 certificates have been issued. Utah has a similar program."
—Lola Alapo, Knoxville News Sentinel, "Driving certificates to be granted with legal proof," March 3, 2006
www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_news/article/0,1406,KNS_347_4510776,00.html

Tennessee Driver License Handbook for CRIMINAL Aliens printed in SPANISH!
www.state.tn.us/safety/publications.htm

"Estimates of the cost to taxpayers of today's immigration level range from $29 to $51 billion annually, and increasing at a record rate. Illinois will need to build an additional school every month for the next 25 years to handle the increased school enrollment due to children of the new immigrants. The city of Chicago already spends about $450 million to educate immigrant children; the fastest growing component of its budget is for bilingual education. Bilingual education increases the cost of education per student by about 50%. Although most immigrants are law abiding, we can expect crime to increase. It costs Illinois $44 million a year to imprison illegal aliens. No estimates of the cost of jailed legal aliens are available, but since 1980 California has incurred a 600% increase in alien inmates. Nationally, 25% of federal prisoners are foreign born. Illinois is now spending more than $170 million on welfare for illegal immigrants. That is a mere drop in the bucket to what California has experienced. Illinois can expect its welfare cost to soar in the coming years. As a taxpayer it will come out of your pocket. Most congressmen believe that the problem of immigration will be solved by simply strengthening our border patrol. This is mistaken on two counts. First, the majority of illegal immigrants do not sneak in over the border. They enter the country on temporary visas. They then buy false identification and meld in with the population."
www.ImmigrationReform.org, "The Immigration issue & our goals"



Criminal aliens get paid US Social Security pensions after only 3 years (half the time required for US citizens), and their SS paychecks are mailed to Mexico.

Yeah, illegal aliens want to do the jobs US citizens don't want, like sex-slave trading, meth-lab operation, heroin trafficking, burglery, armed robbery, rape, murder-for-hire.

Quote:

"Black tar heroin is a variety of heroin produced in Mexico. It is the prevalent form of heroin in the western United States. In the eastern United States, South American-produced "white" (actually beige to off-white) powder heroin is most common. Almost all of the heroin produced in Mexico is destined for the western United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tar_Heroin

"Until the early 1990s, methamphetamine was made mostly in clandestine labs run by drug traffickers in Mexico and California. These areas are still the largest producers for the U.S. market. Pure methamphetamine in tablet form is prescribed by physicians (for ADD), and is available under the brand name Desoxyn®."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meth



We need to put these US govt employees on the Mexican border and shoot every man, woman and child crossing the US border, just like Bush does every day in Iraq and New Orleans:


Witness in New Orleans: "Four 'army men' in a SUV shot him."

Blackwater Mercenaries To Clear New Orleans
www.judicial-inc.biz/kautrina_blackwater_2.htm

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Blackwater CIA sniper shooting innocent people in Iraq:
www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2677403?htv=12
www.blackwaterusa.com/press/cofer.asp
www.blackwaterusa.com/about/employment.asp
"Some people dilute the opium poppy, or the opium residue in water, commonly known as ‘blackwater opium’, and inject it."
www.ahrn.net/library_upload/uploadfile/Rapidassessment.pdf

VIDEO DOWNLOAD: AEGIS CIA snipers genociding innocent civilians in Iraq:
www.judicial-inc.biz/Aegis_Mercs_shoot_civilians.htm

Haliburton and Blackwater got a billion dollar contract for concentration camps in USA for "illegal aliens" - then for everyone else...


http://weblogs.elearning.ubc.ca/ross/archives/2005_09.html

“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
-President Thomas Jefferson

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”
-President JFK Sr
www.minutemanhq.com/hq
www.minutemanproject.com

"Every day's a negotiation and sometimes it's done with guns."
-Joss the Boss

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO (VERSION 2)
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

Pirate News TV
www.piratenews.org

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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:24 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by Phaedra:
I would like to thank Milagrobean, Jonus and Righteous9 for their additions to this thread. I've been watching this thread for the past two days with a growing sense of concern. Now just because we all enjoy the same show does not mean that we have to think the same way, but the discussion was a bit onesided. Takeaway the hispanic and substatute Irish, Chinese, or Jewish and we've seen these argumnets before and they're rarely pretty.

For the record I live in LA. I'm african-american and one of them fancy lawyers (so I come at this thread from a position of admitted privilege, I'd give a vital body part to see more people of chicano/latin heritage at my job). I was heading into the office on Saturday and got caught in the waves of people crammed into the metro. Asking around I learned that they were going to march. Later on I ditched out and joined them. Now granted I couldn't understand what many people were saying (languages hard) but I did understand the sentiment.

For me the marches represent what democracy should look and sound like. A group of people (citizen or not) mobilizing peacefully for their rights. Regardless of how one may feel about immigration, 500,000 marchers at one time sends a powerful message. The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.

Phaedra (a bad luck name)




I'm not against immigration, but I am against illegal immigration, 500,000 people might send a powerful message if most of those people could vote, but since they are illegal they can't as you can see I highlighted illegal, I'm all for people standing up for their rights and democracy, but maybe 500,000 of those people should all go to Mexico and protest the conditions and their rights in their own country and try to make it better for them to live in so that they don't have to come here to get work, lets face it Mexico is a country rich in natural resources just as the United States is, but they've always been third world. Maybe the people their should stand up for their own country and make it a livable place.

I completely understand the desire to make a better life and I don't begrude anybody that, but I'm not going to screw myself in order to do it, I'm just going to be honest about it.

The fact of the matter is, we have our own government and Businesses outsourcing jobs, the compettion for decent jobs in this country is tough and its only going to get tougher, now days a college education is no garuntee for employment, We have illegals coming into the country taking away jobs that I know Americans wouldn't mind having, I currently work at WHOLE FOODS MARKET while I go to school, and I know for a fact that two illegal aliens work there doing janitorial work, now you tell me that No U.S citizens wouldn't Mind having that job, because I know they would.

I went into a Carl's Jr the other day and the guy at the counter had to translate my order to the girl who was preparing the order because she didn't speak any english.

At school the other day I was looking at the job Bulletin board, because I really would like to find another job, they had a job for a customer Rep at a major untilty company in our area, but they wanted someone who was bilingal in spanish. I could apply for that job but I probably won't even be considered because I don't speak spanish, although I have years of customer service experience and Computer skills and I'm more then qualified for the job.

Another argument I hear is that illegals are good for Business, but thats all they are good for; I would rather businesses hire U.S citizens who need jobs and pay them a fair and decent wage, even if I have to pay more for goods and services. America is a gluttonious country, we buy cheap stuff that many of us don't even need, and we buy in exess, no other country consumes the way we do, I would rather pay a higher price for things it wouldn't matter so long as our wages was up to keep up with inflation.

These Business are just plain greedy and they don't give a damn about this country or the people in it, The illegal immigrants are caught in the middle, its not their fault, but unfortantly our government and Business is going to use them as scapegoats. They are being exploited as a cheaper labor source, and their exploitation is making it that much easier for our government and Businesses to exploit our labor, my time and energy is worth alot to me I want myself and my fellow man to be paid a decent wage for their time and energy. you have to look at the bigger picture.

I'm not ignornant or uncompassionate, I understand who and what the real problem is. but compassion has to start at home, its hard to help someone else when you can't even help yourself and we have a whole head of problems and issues to deal with in this country right now.

PIRATENEW: WROTE

Quote:

USA is to be Balkanized and broken up, just like Yugoslavia and Iraq, and is already merged with Mexico and Canada via NAFTA SHAFTA slave contract. NAFTA also legalizes massive sex-slave trading and dope dealing by CIA and Bush White House.


And this is what we really need to be addressing, you make some excellent points through NATA, aka globalizaton jobs are disappearing and there really isn't any borders, this is why I say people have to look at the bigger picture here, Mexican illegal immigrants that have no rights are being exploited and their exploitation is making it that much easier for us to be exploited/ slave labor.


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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 8:41 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


Fletch,

now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.

You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?

Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...

So why has nobody with this hyper-anger at immigrants conceded, even begrudgingly, that the Corporate Lobbies are the perpetrators of this entire situation? Could one of you please respond to this question? Why don't you see the connection? People will go where there's money. Why haven't we stopped the source of that money?

Why don't you care whether that source is stopped? Why even play around with any other half-baked notion of stopping immigration?

I mean, come on...the immigrants are the bullies? 2 + 2 must also = 5 at this point.

Phaedra's involvement in that march also leads me to believe that not everybody in the crowds were illegals, but also sympathizers and family and friends of them.

Also, arresting illegal immigrants from a rally would do what kind of good exactly? It's as ludicrous as the drug war. If you don't decrease the demand you won't decrease the trade, plain and simple.



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Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:07 PM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:
Fletch,

now you're associating illegal immigrants with thieves.
They aren't coming here to steal...they are coming here to work...sometimes 2, 3, jobs.




Actually I was rebuffing two ideas.

1) Desperate starving people break the law to survive and that somehow gives them a moral loophole not possessed by other people that break similar laws. A good example is someone who is starving who steals so they can eat. I was pointing out that there are also people that wouldn't steal even if that meant going hungry, and rich people that steal even when they don't need to.
There are equally desperate people all around the world sometimes waiting years to get a green card allocation. Are they less deserving? Should those that break the rules be rewarded over equally needy people who followed the rules?
Your opinion please.

2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings. I don't begrudge them the chance at a better life, but if you want to save the starving masses, look at Africa and the far east and take more legal immigrants from there.


Quote:



You're going to attack people with little education and genuine need for not going through the proper channels? They aren't the ones creating the loopholes...they're the ones who are hungry, with families that they want to shelter, just like us. Where the hell is our empathy?




I've stood in line with people, I've watched them wait in queues for hours to see the right official with the dream of coming to this country. Some of these people have waited for years, families have been divided because once you start an application you can't legally visit the US because they are afraid once you're here you'll just disappear. Where's your empathy for them? You don't have any right? They are just the suckers so stupid they played by the rules.


Quote:




Seriously. It's been said time and time again on this thread, but all of you who have this axe to grind with the victims of poverty rather than the orchestrators of it, keep ducking the real problem every time...




Absolutely, the problem is lack of opertunity for people in Mexico. I have a great idea, why don't you take some of your hard earned Gingo dollars and support some charity initatives down there, help those poor starving types at source? I see, that would cost you money when bitching is free.

Oh hey.


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Thursday, March 30, 2006 12:34 AM

RIGHTEOUS9




My post was probably a little overboard, and not all directed at you.

Fair enough. It's a blanket statement to say the mexican's coming here are starving. But they are impoverished...the infrastructure in Mexico isn't very good, opportunities to work after reaching a fairly young advanced age, dissapear (I've heard). So what about the future they have once they can no longer find the work they are finding today?

We all look out for ourselves, and our own families. In my opinion, that's neither culpable, nor particularly honorable. Some of us try to find some sort of balance, like contributing to causes(I send money to political causes because I feel like people running the show have the most opportunity(if not the desire) to change things in big ways), and I avoid shopping at Wal-Mart even when I'm dirt broke...

but I still drive a car that pollutes, I still work for a company that hires illegal aliens, which I pay with my tip money. It's hard to be totally apart from the machine...

Which is why I excuse us Americans in the many ways we are doing damage to our world and its peoples...its part ignorance, part a sense of helplessness, part a sense of personal need that directly contradicts those matters of grander import.

It's human nature to be self-referential, and its the nature of capitalism to be self-serving. I think its an unfair lack of context to single out illegal immigrants and say that THEY are the ones who aren't thinking about their neighbors...THEY are the ones not thinking about others in need, when they come to pursue things that would benefit them. We aint so different.

Also, I do care about legal immigrants. Should I repeat one more time to you the answer to who's making it harder for them to get expedited? Yeah, the corporation's who keep hiring illegals...thereby flooding us with illegals. Still no comment on that though?




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Thursday, March 30, 2006 3:24 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:

2) These are starving people. In many cases they are not, they are economic refugees who can make a better life for themselves here than in Mexico. I'm told it costs between $800 and $2500 per person to pay a people smuggler to get you across the border. I know American families without $800 a head in savings.

Point taken, Fletch. These are not the folks I empathize with, it's the ones who walk all the way here I feel for.

Walkin' dude Chrisisall

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