I, Jewish Psychopath by piratenews

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- there is a point in the film that made me think that empathetic people in abusive households may develop "learned psychopathy". If you are fearful nearly all of the time, then your response to the environment may be to override the "fear" response in the anterior cingulate, if that's possible.

Siggy, this is a HUGE part of my issue regarding the abusive environment and culture of most public schools.

Because at some point while still being in that environment it occured to me there could NOT *be* that many actual sociopaths, or society itself would have imploded, and I realized that almost 80% of the folk I was taking for such, it was LEARNED BEHAVIOR.
I even wrote a full on paper about it, "Learned Sociopathy as Defense Mechanism", and the tremendous hostile overreaction to it just convinced me all the more that I was maybe onto something there.

Now, a learned-behavior sociopath can indeed be just as damn dangerous, and past a certain point of psyche calcification is all but untreatable barring a catastrophic breakdown - but you get in quick and early, and start unfucking that kids brain BEFORE that shit calcifies, they'll turn out within parameters we consider "normal" (subtracting out society's heavy bias towards sociopathy, of course) - I've proved this, over and over again, Perry has proven it, Alice Miller stated it as an option and even discussed one of the mechanisms (Helping Witness) by which it can be prevented, Andrew Vachss even gave a speech on the results! (The Lifestyle-Violent Juvenille)

Thing is, even with a fully calcified, learned sociopath, there are fundamental key differences which upon observation will reveal themselves - even some conventional psych folk have noticed this, leading to discussions of "partial" or "compensated" sociopathy, but IMHO it's no such damn thing, it's learned-behavior is what it is, and it's "taught" via social systems that via negligence or design, teach exactly that.
Of course a whole lot LESS of em now, not to bang my own drum, but there's still a lot of that in the toxic culture we've allowed to fester in our public school systems, which desperately need a humane reformation rather than increasing police-state methods and tactics.

Anyhows, those key differences which can be spotted are the magic bullet for dealing with those people, those tiny remaining threads of humanity by which one can subvert their behavior or intentions which are harmful, you see ?
And caught early enough, can even be used to draw them off that dark path and down a better one, provided they're willing to do so when our society offers than no reward and much abuse for doing so...

Note that I do not use the word psychopath - back in the 70's-80's for some reason the conventional psych folk combined the terms, which I feel was a mistake even then, a PSYCHOpath has *RULES*, they work by an internal code which they'll stick to even to the cost of their own life, and while they've no respect for social rules or the rule of the law, to the point where even punishment for it's violation makes no sense to them....
They WILL obey their own internal rules and code, above all else, which means that if one can figure it out (cause most of em by no means will tell YOU) then you can render them powerless to harm you - was one kid I knew like this, who never shafted or betrayed ME cause I exploited his code via refusing to ALLOW him to pay me for temporary room and board... his code included a certain provision against harming people he "owed", and by putting him in a position where he felt a debt, he'd never harm ME - of course if I had allowed him to settle up....

Conversely, SOCIOpaths have NO rules, no internal code whatsoever, and thus are all the more dangerous - but I feel conventional pysch did themselves a disservice by combining the terms because it ignores a very real danger of dealing with Psychopaths, and that is that if YOU break some tenet of their own moral code, they'll try to kill your ass - many a conventional psych professional has learned this to their peril.

All that said, learned sociopathy is very, very real, and it's IMHO the primary ROOT of a substantial chunk of ALL aberrant behavior, particularly in youth - and our failure to address it, to admit culpability in it's creation, is so costly I cannot for the life of me see why the hell we continue to do so.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 5, 2011 11:43 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I'm not able to watch the video from here. What is in it?

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 5, 2011 11:58 AM

It's an australian documentary following the nature of a firmly admitted sociopath who also from what I gather so far seems to be a successful businessman, which says a lot about corporate culture, you ask me.

It's not really news to me, and wiki covers prettymuch the same space, albeit with less impact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Oh, and Siggy, if THAT struck your fancy, then you'd Looooooooove THIS one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_%28film%29

Anyhows, self-aware or fully-admitted sociopaths are quite rare, the most famous of which being Carl Panzram, and he was one nasty piece of work, he was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Panzram
Just imagine THIS guy born into an environment of wealth and power, and you get a good concept of what the american "Powers that Be" are formulated FROM, since most of them are in fact family dynasties and there's a genetic component as well as environmental in their creation....
Dick Cheney is a more modern example, and IMHO the *only* difference between him and Panzram was that Cheney had greater social status and access to resources Panzram didn't.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 5, 2011 12:09 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Thanks! for the info.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, September 5, 2011 3:31 PM

DREAMTROVE

The concept of a corporation of psychopaths, because it's clear that this guy is thinking that everyone else thinks the way he thinks. It's natural: If a psychopath started a company, that would have a task that was incredibly manipulative and had no concern for anyone else, then it hired people to do the work, they'd keep quitting, and then he'd get one employee who really stuck to it, and after a couple years, half a dozen, and he'd be running a whole psychopath incorporated. The concept obviates the need for any grand conspiracy. In fact, there is no conspiracy, just like minds getting together, seeing the world differently, and exploiting it as such.

Cheney is a rare case because he's a stroke-created psychopath. While there are lots of these, few are in high positions. But it's easy to see what makes Cheney so dangerous: Cheney v. 1.0 was able to get an incredible amount of respect in the establishment, and Cheney v. 2.0 was able to use that.

It's clear that the guy in the video is not just the creation of social circumstances because of the tests that they do. Something is actually wrong with his brain, it no worky in some areas. He fails to have the anticipatory response to stimuli, even though he knows, because the internal chain of command circuits don't communicate with one another. Also, he is unable to manifest readings intentionally, so there are weak or broken circuits. A couple of these are testing the hardwiring, and it's not working.

A third tell tale sign is the child prodigy story. If your brain doesn't work in some areas, it works better in others. If you have no moral center working in your brain, you make decisions at four times the rate, as a circuit involving the prediction of possible consequences is not invoked. That circuit takes about 2 seconds to execute, vs. the non-consequential decision which executes in 0.5. The resulting judgment is now call "amoral" but is definitely faster, and considered now to be an earlier form of evolution, and something that may have separated our ancestors at some point. It's loss could be a genetic fluke, or the result of physical brain damage (like with Cheney) or early in life, even prenatal.

I'm a nurture guy too, but I have to say there's a nature case potentially here which is pretty strong. Essentially, he's not imagining future scenarios, nor imagining what's going on in other people's heads, he may not be imagining anything. As a result, he's making poor decisions really quickly. If you want to see this in extreme action, check out mice sometime ;)

But really, I think something is wrong with him; he has non-responsive reasons in his brain. He might have a lot of psychological baggage, but it was fairly indicative in the video that this was not the main problem. He's like an evil rainman, only not at all dangerous. He's missing that experience or lacking a broken circuit that would have made him harmful to himself or to others.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 9:18 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Please take the "Jewish" out of the title and watch the film. It's highly revealing, and somewhat disturbing. I'm not sure that most people realize who and what psychopaths are.

BTW- there is a point in the film that made me think that empathetic people in abusive households may develop "learned psychopathy". If you are fearful nearly all of the time, then your response to the environment may be to override the "fear" response in the anterior cingulate, if that's possible.

Sam Vaknin calls narcissistic (psychopathic) co-dependents "inverted narcissists" (inverted psychopaths).

Shmuel Ben David "Sam" Vaknin was a citizen of Israel and soldier in the Israeli army, and was was jailed for fraud in Israel. Only jews are allowed to immigrate and become citizens in Israel. Christianity is a felony.

Psychopath Sam Vaknin is now an author and "therapist" on psychopathy, which he renamed narcissism.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=sam+vaknin

Sam Vaknin has 100 videos on youtube, which are very informative at identifying your local psychopaths:

Psychopath Sam Vaknin identifies Dictator Hussein Obama as a homicidal psychopath:

Quote:
"Perhaps it is time to require each candidate to high office in the USA to submit to a rigorous physical and mental checkup with the results made public."
-Sam Vaknin, Barack Obama: Narcissist (Psychopath) or Merely Narcissistic (Psychopathic)? by Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/obama.html

"I am not a psychopath!"

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Friday, September 9, 2011 9:42 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Because at some point while still being in that environment it occured to me there could NOT *be* that many actual sociopaths, or society itself would have imploded, and I realized that almost 80% of the folk I was taking for such, it was LEARNED BEHAVIOR.

I even wrote a full on paper about it, "Learned Sociopathy as Defense Mechanism", and the tremendous hostile overreaction to it just convinced me all the more that I was maybe onto something there.

In most cases, not learned...TAUGHT ON PURPOSE by skools and media.

Real psychopaths are cowards who run from danger, so They require useful idiots to volunteer for war and run the Police State.

This is called the Hessian Model of skooling, since Americans didn't volunteer fast enought for death in world wars.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 10:32 AM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Psychopathis therapist Dr Sam Vaknin PhD in the English documentary EGO-MANIA (PSYCHOPATHS):

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Friday, September 9, 2011 4:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
In most cases, not learned...TAUGHT ON PURPOSE by skools and media.

Same damn difference, John - you're bloody well aware I've read Gatto, and all the other blacklisted historians on this matter, plus the notion of deliberately extending dependancy into permanence by not only trying to shove them straight from there into college AND stick them with enough debt in the process so they'll NEVER be in a position, financially or mentally, to tell "The System" to fuck off.

Do you really think I would be half as effective dumping sand in the gears if I didn't know how it all worked ?

But what was learned can be unlearned, it's a matter of getting to it before they sink so far into the poison that they give up fighting back, and for those who by virtue of mental damage, screwed up parenting, or heaven knows what, who are aware of how vile the system is and cheering it on anyway (religion usually has some place in this) - no point in wasting the effort, besides which, you can do far more harm to them and their sickass bootlicking by giving them just enough to forever doubt themselves and their chosen tyrants, just enough that every action comes with a hesitancy that makes them useless to that feral pack, and causes them to suffer terribly as they're never truly accepted by either side and become ever more mentally aberrant till they just completely melt down between the ears.

Sound cruel ?
Consider well that such kids decided, actively CHOSE, the path of evil, of their own free will, turned against the natural human instincts and embraced hate, intolerance and violence like they were milk and honey - what DO you call someone like that, what word can even apply ?
And so, by applying a carefully measured dose of humanity, of truth, you create a schism within them, stoke that tiny dwindling spark of humanity within them before it dies completely...
And if they embrace it, turn away, so much the better.

But if they continue to actively hate their own humanity and try to destroy it, they doom themselves - and in such a way that it contiminates the agendas of all they affiliate with and eventually destroys them utterly.

Now I ain't one for dehumanizing people, but once they have taken active and deliberate steps of their own free will to dehumanize themselves, to silence the voices of conscience and humanity within them - to me they AIN'T human, they're just objects, harmful ones like carelessly scattered land mines.

Setsuninto--Katsujinken
The sword that takes life, the sword that gives life
http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html

Quote:
The philosopher Derrida refers to the "community of the question." All of us who live in the martial world, either through our profession or through our avocation in combative arts, face similar questions when it comes to the responsibility we incur through our acquisition of power. So I ask the following question, not to get any answers from you, but perhaps to evoke the question within you:

Am I a moral failure in that I did not kill him?

When I interviewed that boy, I knew what he was capable of doing. I had no expectation that treatment would help him, but that was the best suggestion I could come up with. I knew he would, sooner or later, do something horrible to some poor child.

Is it my responsibility merely to offer therapy to those I can, teach as many people as I can how to protect themselves from violence, saving myself to raise my sons, saving myself, therefore, from the consequences of what I knew was going to happen?

I could have saved the child he raped an unimaginable world of pain, and probably other children, too, when he finally gets out of prison. Were you to hear that I had killed him, solely based on my intuition and assessment, what would be your reaction?

My own answer to this question is the choice I made, but I will be haunted until my death at the thought of that child, her flesh ground into a sidewalk, the sun beating down upon her pain, indifferent as the flat, shark eyes of her rapist.

What, then, is the sword that gives life?

I have my own answers to that question - do you ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 6:58 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Tax-dodging money-laundering rabbi tells fed court jewish law prevents jewish criminals from testifying against jewish criminals
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/09/rabbi-moshe-zigelman-tax
-evasion-us-district-court.html

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Friday, September 9, 2011 7:26 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

"Real psychopaths are cowards who run from danger"

Hello,

I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Or else we need a term for something very close to a psychopath that does not behave this way.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Friday, September 9, 2011 8:28 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:

"Real psychopaths are cowards who run from danger"

Hello,

I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Or else we need a term for something very close to a psychopath that does not behave this way.

A "crazy psychopath"?

Actually, a psychopath that fails to run from danger is usually a dead psychopath. Their IQ is lower due to their own mental defects. Psycho soldiers don't work well in a group, so they don't usually last long, according to military studies.

What the military wants is brainwashed normal people who kill like robots, for a little while. Psychos don't like being told what to do, unlike a normal person who will put up with almost anything.

Bravery is not sneaking into a sleeping coed's room and bashing her skull with a baseball bat.

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Friday, September 9, 2011 9:29 PM

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

"We are a superior subspecies. We transcend humanity. We are Nature's Supermen. We deserve the subservience and availability of everyone around us. Luckily, every year 100-million people are born throughout the world. We have 100-million new choices every year."
-Sam Vaknin, Jewish psychopath, EGOMANIA

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Friday, September 9, 2011 10:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Or else we need a term for something very close to a psychopath that does not behave this way.

Jackboot.

... you're welcome.

-F

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Saturday, September 10, 2011 1:47 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY

Quote:
Originally posted by piratenews:
"We are a superior subspecies. We transcend humanity. We are Nature's Supermen. We deserve the subservience and availability of everyone around us. Luckily, every year 100-million people are born throughout the world. We have 100-million new choices every year."
-Sam Vaknin, Jewish psychopath, EGOMANIA

http://www.behindthename.com/name/john

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Saturday, September 10, 2011 2:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Cheney is a rare case because he's a stroke-created psychopath.

I don't think Cheney is 1 bit psychopath. He was in a position of power and had to make some very tough decisions which affected the lives of 100's of millions of people.

As for VPs, AlGore & Joe Biteme display traits of being supremely pleased of themselves.

As for the video clip, I can see the appeal, but it's not to my liking. While I appreciate the value of studying such deviancy, it's now how I prefer to spend my time.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Saturday, September 10, 2011 10:34 AM

Of course not, hits a little close to home for you, no doubt.

-F

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Saturday, September 10, 2011 7:51 PM

I had the grandiosity, no empathy, and no conscience thing until I was about 13. Now I mostly regret every single thing I do or say, and think I'm just about worthless. Of course, as you can see, I still have a higher tendency towards self-pity than empathy, despite knowing full well that my life is not nearly so bad as some.

I'm sure I've retained some tendencies. I am a little manipulative still, though I've learned how to let things go if I don't get my way. Or perhaps rather I've learned patience, that everything will come in time. Mostly I use it to convince people to give me candy, or to keep my internet from being shut off, or to avoid getting into damaging or emotional or personal fights with people on message boards.

In any case, I did at least always have rules. The first was loyalty to my protectorate, the second was retribution to anyone who hurt my protectorate, the third was that attacking anyone weaker than myself was cowardly, the fourth was secrecy, the sixth was to keep authority figures out of everyone's business (through secrecy), and the sixth was to otherwise attempt to conduct myself in a heroic manner, consistent with the literature I read.

EDIT: Also, I can't lie very well, and will keep a promise unless the benefactor of that promise asked to break it, and sometimes not even then. I have sometimes been tricked into giving a promise by people who dislike me to leave a place and not return.

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 4:54 PM

That's always one of the things which I've been unable to pin down or explain, about Dark Sparks, Byte - they all seem to have (generally) the same set of "rules", but where the hell do they come from ?

Wide ranges of experiences, cultures, and yet it comes always down to that set of "rules" in almost every case, and no way no how could they have obtained it from the same source.

And yet it's there - almost like there's a spiritual aspect to it from an external source, although in lieu of evidence I refuse to believe that.

*passes over handful of candy*

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:09 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Byte a chara, You're not a sociopath. My friend H had Oppositional Defiant Disorder when she was a little girl. Yeah that diagnosis is bandied about way too much now adays but she really did have it when she was little. This scared the youknowwhat out of her parents (she's adopted) because her biomom had antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) and they were terrified that H would inherit it and grow up to be that too, a fate that no family wants to endure. H was adopted when she was two weeks old and had no contact with bio parents so it was clearly inherrant and not from seeing bio mom's behavior. So the parents were scared, but H grew out of it. If a child continues down that road they end up being diagnosed with conduct disorder around 13 and if it hasn't cleared by adulthood they get the APD diagnosis and heaven help the world. But like I said H grew out of it in middle school, never had conduct disorder, has no personality disorders, yay! Now, she didn't escape genetically unscathed though because she does have some mental health differences, but anything is better than Antisocial personality disorder. She's close with her family, lives with her longtime boyfriend, is ambitious and in school, cares about people, has lots of friends, is stable etc. So the good news is that kids can grow out of it when they're young.

With the ones who have full antisocial personality disorder though its pretty difficult, sometimes you can make headway by appealing to their selfish nature (if you break the law you'll end up in jail, and now, that wouldn't be what _you want, that would give _you the shaft, so in order to look out for _you you've got to obey those laws.)

Frem knows more about that part than I do though, personality disorders aren't my forte, especially that one."A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:14 PM

Feral children, either raised that way by free-range parenting, or the result of neglect, or the result of a lack of trust towards parents. In the cases where there's no parental input, to try to fit into society, the kids have to backwards engineer their own entire ethics system, often from books, movies, or video games.

But because those are all idealistic and unrealistic depictions of reality, that ends up making them act more like the Fair Folk than humans.

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:26 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"Wide ranges of experiences, cultures, and yet it comes always down to that set of "rules" in almost every case, and no way no how could they have obtained it from the same source."

I think it comes from learning by negative example - approximately 10% of abused/ neglected children do that. They grow up learning - I **WILL NOT** be THAT.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:30 PM

Riona, I do appreciate your vote of confidence, but I was a horror when I was little. While my behaviour towards teachers was more passive aggressive so they never really noticed enough to call me Oppositional Defiant, my parents could not ever reign in my behaviour, and I had a reputation for viciousness.

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 6:07 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Byte

Don't sweat it. When I was young I had an undiagnosed neurological problem. My behavior was less than stellar. But I had a sibling I was extremely close to b/c that was all I could do. However, I think that was an indicator that I wasn't 'born' to APD no matter how it may have looked.

You had a code. There were those who were inside your code and those who were outside, but you had a code. FWIW that gives me the sense you weren't 'born' to APD either.

My feeling is that children are born to conform, whatever the society they are born into. If they don't, it's b/c they can't. And if they have loving, concerned parents b/c their parents don't know how to help.

Some things are beyond blame or guilt - they just are. Just like you ...

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 6:37 PM

I don't lie when I tell you that I was cruel and sadistic, and that just because I had a code doesn't mean that it always worked. I used to fly into violent rages. Even my own pets used to avoid me. So believe me when I say I'm not joking.

Now that I'm older, I know that there's nothing that isn't my fault.

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:02 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Byte a chara,

I mentioned H because I wonder if you had that when you were young and grew out of it, kids can grow out of things sometimes. I wouldn't be your friend if you had antisocial personality disorder. We wouldn't get along, even if you played nice to get my attention I think I'd see through it. And you are a good friend of mine, so make of that what you like.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 8:31 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"I used to fly into violent rages."

So did I. But when I look back the several decades I see it was due to a stressed and frazzled brain that would break down from time to time. Also, if you were psychopathic, you couldn't even understand a social code, let alone have one, however imperfectly followed. And the fact that you now feel regret and/ or guilt pretty much clinches it. IMHO.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Sunday, September 11, 2011 10:53 PM

Reverse engineered from alternative sources, that I know, only makes sense.

But why THOSE specific tenets, every time, why the bent towards Byronism ?
That's the question which perplexes me, you see.

And yes, Fair Folk, but rather closer in aspect to the Unseelie Court, which caused all manner of unintentional and annoying (to her!) antics when I wound up dating a Seelie - that did NOT end well.
And just so ya know, my preferred icon of destruction lays rest the myth you could stop one with cold iron...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 12, 2011 4:22 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
I wouldn't be your friend if you had antisocial personality disorder. We wouldn't get along, even if you played nice to get my attention I think I'd see through it. And you are a good friend of mine, so make of that what you like.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

Hello,

That's a comforting thought, but I think it is possible to befriend and even to love a monster.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, September 12, 2011 5:21 AM

Omigosh, you guys, you'd hug an alligator. I give up.

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Monday, September 12, 2011 1:52 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

But alligators are so cute! :) There's a band called Tricky Pixie that sings a song about There's an Alligator in my House, its a funny song, the alligator is biding its time, eating little things, one of the cats is missing, its slinking about etc.

Well Frem, a chara, a stor, you've called me out, I must confess to all now. I'm not a mere mortal woman as many around me think. In the Fae Realm I committed a minor infraction some years ago, was really no big thing really, which resulted in my complete, allbeit temperary, banishment to the land of man. I was to live out a life here, but part of the punishment was to be stuck in this flawed body for the duration of the time. That is my fate on this earth.

...

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 12, 2011 4:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Omigosh, you guys, you'd hug an alligator. I give up.

But they're so cute, in a creepy disturbing sort of way...

And that one's but cuter AND creepier, innit ?

Riona, a lot of folks tend to think of fae, and faekin, as a european thing, but I tellya not many of em live in the bayou or the appalacians, cause them suckers either hitched a ride or (more likely) pre-dated us here, they just happen to be generally more discreet and less prevalent in a society that initially believed in something else (puritan idiocy) to the point of near insanity.

I think the point Byte was making though, is that Dark Sparks are much like Faekin in that rather than "good" or "evil" by conventional judeo-christian black and white terms, what they are is *different*, oh how very much so - again I find myself using reference links in order to keep this concise, but these two do apply, most particularly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaryAmoralReligion

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality

Of course, in a society which considers "different" to be abhorrent, evil, although not to the degree of some (Japan is worse for this), someone like that is generally not well recieved or regarded - but then neither were Fae, till they decided that such treatment would swiftly be attented to via attitude.. ADJUSTMENT.

And you know, I am all kinds of down with that.

Besides which, I know damn well I'm probably technically Faekin - most folks don't have that kind of bond with wild animals otherwise, and it's worth a laugh or two wondering if anyone leaves this place alone cause of THAT, too...
Cause you know, I have the raccons on MY side!

Hehehehehe...

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 12, 2011 4:17 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

I'm just messin with ya Frem, can't you tell? :))

I love playing about that kind of thing, I don't believe in it but I like pretending about it. I like playing pretends and I'm going to have to play a charactor sometime that has that backstory, because its just too clever not to use for something later.

There's a weird part of me that would wonder if I could find someone who actually believed me. Then of course I'd fess up, but the experience of someone thinking that was true, allbeit for a brief time, would be entertaining to say the least. Don't you think it was a good story?

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 12, 2011 4:32 PM

Always, but never unwise to cover your bases when discussing folks who might eat you in retaliation.

I've seen enough freaky things in my time to not automatically discount anything though, and having similar tendancies gives me more interest than usual, to the point where I know the difference between Fae, Faekin, and Pettifae(1), but one of my particular interests is Solara, which are the guardians of "thinnies", which are places where the veil between worlds is quite thin and the friction creates a lot of power for those able to harness it, as well as the possibility of travel between.

Solara, despite their guise as human childen (often in places wholly inappropriate to find one) are *NOT* human, and by human standards are pretty sadistic, toying with them as cats do with bugs or mice, holding us in similar regard - usually communicating only by ryhme, music or simply leading humans to their doom in much the fashion as willowisps do.

As for Pettifae, those amuse me cause they're essentially evolved bugs, so not exactly well endowed in the attention span or brains department, which can be in it's own way hilarious.
Two of the anime I like, Bottle Fairy and Snow Fairy Sugar, revolve around Pettifae, and Sugar is quite boneheaded even for one of THEM.

WAFFO!

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, September 12, 2011 6:26 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Not the concrete answers I was looking for. OMNOMNOMNOM!

I define feral children differently than Byte clearly. I went through this feral children phase in high school so I did a lot of research on actual cases. I only use the term to describe children who were completely neglected/didn't learn much talking etc. or children who grew up under animal supervision (rare, but it has happened). So Byte's looser definition doesn't fly with me, but hey. I gave up on the idea of looking after feral children, very few people get that chance and it would just be too difficult for me logistically. But I enjoyed studying it for a time.

Frem. I believe that anything that society tollerates, that is what people will be. If you live in a society that tollerates a wide variety of behavior you'll find people who do lots of different things/believe lots of different things. If something isn't allowed or is discouraged you find less of it, when you do find it it is fewer and further between.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, September 12, 2011 9:44 PM

Riona, oddly enough I kinda WAS one of those, I coined the term "Social Feral" sometime in high school so that folks would understand, which they didn't, still don't.

You see, from the moment of my birth I was *NOT* welcome in my fathers presence, not whatsoever, to draw his notice was to draw his wrath, which is where I learned my stealthy ways, which of course lead to him them hating on me for being sneaky - he just flat out hated me, period, and made damn sure I knew it.
Believe me, he'd have been happier if I *had* been stillborn, I've not ever forgiven any of this, but I let it go cause as a parent he's a lost cause and he only finally realized it after his actions lead to the death of his daughter - after which he tried in his clumsy, self-destructive fashion to make amends, which I wasn't having any of since I had greater concerns at the time, but I did eventually just plain let it go cause ain't no point to THAT grudge, his own actions have done him more harm than I would have, and frankly in order to hate him, I'd have to give one shit about him, which I do not...
But watching him take some kinda perverse pride in my continued survival against all odds grates on me, it does.

Anyhow, due to that I actually learned to read before I had fully developed speech, even now I pronounce things as-written, which strikes some folk as odd, and at the time many of the teachers thought I was mute, my kindergarten teacher was rather firmly convinced till a self-defense incident in which I caught all the blame caused me to call her out on a certain kind of favoritism, using language skills one does not normally accept from a five year old, not to mention a couple words most certainly not polite vocabulary... and they went back and forth between thinking I was "wrong upstairs" or actually smart, and just plain mean - either way it didn't bother them too much cause when I *DID* say something it wasn't anything they wanted to hear, oh no.

Plus, due to my mother working 14 hour days thanks to a long commute and piss poor wages, I was left to fend for myself to an extreme degree, which only got worse after it became clear I didn't hold with the conventional "pecking order" - you touched me, I tried to kill you, that kinda put a damper on things and resulted in me being utterly and completely shunned, even by other outcasts who for some reason felt that because the punks no longer hassled me, they were then taking my "share" of the abuse, and hated me for it.

So for near fifteen years really, the only human contact I had besides a few stolen moments with my mother on the occasional weekend, almost a meeting of strangers really, cause we knew essentially nothing about one another, and looking after my sister, who is also in her own way seriously messed up - was essentially exploitive, violent, or malicious in nature, certainly I had no bonds to anyone nor even the potential for them till I had a catastrophic-type epiphany at about twelve and started trying to change the things I felt were horrible about the world I was experiencing, which only made things worse for the longest time.

Why you think I understand closet-kids so well, the severely neglected and abandoned, and know how to draw them out of it ?

This is also why I understand Hikikomori so very well, cause Japanese culture tends to content themselves with the lie that they withdraw from fear, because they cannot acknowledge the truth, that what turns them away from their own society is a deep and profound disgust, almost a hatred, and crosses over into something resembling PTSD if not in fact co-morbid with it, Zielenzigers book Shutting out the Sun delves into this, but not deeply enough, in my opinion - but the Japanese refuse to admit there's anything in their society to be disgusted WITH, so they call it fear and scorn them.
For all that the girl drives me up a wall, Yuriko knows this as well or better than I do, most of her Miko are kids who would have otherwise gone that route who found acceptance by choosing a path that offered something other than the crushing of their humanity, their soul...
(And not helping matters is that many are second or third children and culturally considered useless, which is a bitter pill to swallow for a kid, you know.)

Westerners do it too, call it fear when it's actually disgust, revulsion at a culture which does it's very best to destroy empathy, humanity - we do them no favors by allowing our own blindness to cloud the diagnosis - in fact most folks I call Dark Sparks don't have a social requirement, so much as they have a social tolerance, think of it like force fields, which get worn down with human interaction, and as such will retreat into their "Fortress", and not come out till recharged - woe unto the poor soul who does not have one, and if pushed past endurance by enforced socializing a Dark Spark can and will quickly turn bitter and angry, if not downright violent.

I think that is in part of what draws them to pull the concept of Knight Errant from external sources and include it into their own ethics, although in my case my mother rather deliberately nudged me onto that path cause she knew damn well I'd never be quite welcome in the society I'd be living within...
This is because it allows them to practice their own ethics since while perhaps dwelling with or aiding a community they are not part of it, nor will they be save in rare or extreme cases.

Come to think of it, it was one of those children which initially sparked my burning hatred for the Foster Care System too, probably the most extreme case of closet-kid ever known, the child known as "Genie".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_%28feral_child%29
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4804490&page=1
Butler actually tried, for all the wrong reasons, but she did - Rigler was an idiot, and only in it at all for prestige....

And then NIMH cut all funding, which was something unforgiveable since they should have at least continued to care for her as a humanitarian gesture and as "payment" for using her as a lab rat, for crying out loud, and Rigler bailed out immediately, thus dumping the kid back to her birth mother, who was totally unable to cope, and from there through a selection of progressively more abusive foster homes, and then finally a private foundation came through and placed her in long-term adult care facility, one of the members of that foundation was in fact the original Fremdfirma, and the guy who passed on his files on Synanon to me.

I don't trust NIMH, because there's too much political push to make their conclusions more socially palatable, and I was right not to even then cause they've also been involved in this push towards made-up disorders which serve mostly as excuses to shove psychotropic drugs on everyone and anyone, which doesn't even make any medical or psychological sense in most cases cause the primary use of the damn things is symptom abatement, which is used (theoretically) WHILE the underlying causes are being treated, instead of endlessly treating the symptoms over and over.
Of course, there's exceptions, and Siggy can tell you more about that sort of thing, where folks with actual damage need long-term correctives or support via chems, but that's a different sort of thing.

And my opinion of the Foster Care meatgrinder is about the same as it ever was, since that's the primary source of where closet-kids come from, obviously - while it does happen otherwise, sadly enough, it's far, FAR more common in a Foster setting than elsewhere since in most cases there's less attachment.

So yeah, I understand there's a Feral spectrum there, from the full-on maximum case closet-kid like Genie, all the way to the socially and emotionally distant kid with the so-called normal life who just has the psychological equivalent of transplant rejection towards our society.

But there is one "tell" that never goes away, watch them interact, and look for it, you will see.
They're watching the other persons posture, stance, movements, what they *DO*, and react to that rather than words because language holds less meaning for them, and they know humans lie.

-Frem
PS. Apparently one factor of closet-kid syndrome actually has a name and classification, finally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogenic_dwarfism
Although they've still got about nothing on the eyesight problems from extended light deprivation.

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Monday, September 12, 2011 10:15 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, September 13, 2011 4:35 PM

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Frem, I'm quite familiar with Jeni and how she was dumped when people didn't get the results they wanted from her. That's cool that you know someone (a nice someone) connected with that case, I would have loved running across you nine or ten years ago when I was really into studying this sort of thing. I hope she is well loved and looked after, perhaps you know and can reassure me on that point. When I was in high school wiki didn't exist yet in its full form so I had to do research elsewhere, I found a very helpful site whose author answered my questions sometimes, he was just a person who was interested in it though, didn't have the personal experience with it.

I'd call you more of a street kid Frem, fending for yourself etc. but I'm sort of a persnickety person about definitions. For instance, duh, not everyone with mental health differences or developmental differences is touched and I don't call folk touched when they aren't, its inofficient and inaccurate.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:25 AM