REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Our Summer of Climate Truth

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Friday, August 17, 2012 14:28
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2372
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Thursday, August 9, 2012 3:40 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


A good article - in case you're still not concerned about climate change:

Quote:


Jeffrey D. Sachs

Jeffrey D. Sachs is a professor at Columbia University, Director of its Earth Institute, and a special adviser to United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon. His work focuses on economic development and international aid, was he was Director of the UN Millennium Project from 2002 to 2006. His books include The End of Poverty and Common Wealth.


NEW YORK – For years, climate scientists have been warning the world that the heavy use of fossil fuels (coal, oil, and natural gas) threatens the world with human-induced climate change. The rising atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide, a byproduct of burning fossil fuels, would warm the planet and change rainfall and storm patterns and raise sea levels. Now those changes are hitting in every direction, even as powerful corporate lobbies and media propagandists like Rupert Murdoch try to deny the truth.

In recent weeks, the United States has entered its worst drought in modern times. The Midwest and the Plains states, the country’s breadbasket, are baking under a massive heat wave, with more than half of the country under a drought emergency and little relief in sight.

Halfway around the world, Beijing has been hit by the worst rains on record, with floods killing many people. Japan is similarly facing record-breaking torrential rains. Two of Africa's impoverished drylands – the Horn of Africa in the East and the Sahel in the West – have experienced devastating droughts and famines in the past two years: the rains never came, causing many thousands to perish, while millions face life-threatening hunger.

Scientists have given a name to our era, the Anthropocene, a term built on ancient Greek roots to mean “the Human-dominated epoch” – a new period of earth’s history in which humanity has become the cause of global-scale environmental change. Humanity affects not only the earth’s climate, but also ocean chemistry, the land and marine habitats of millions of species, the quality of air and water, and the cycles of water, nitrogen, phosphorus, and other essential components that underpin life on the planet.

For many years, the risk of climate change was widely regarded as something far in the future, a risk perhaps facing our children or their children. That threat would, of course, have been reason enough to act. Yet now we understand better that climate change is also about us, today’s generation.

We have already entered a new and very dangerous era. If you are a young person, climate change and other human-caused environmental hazards will be major factors in your life.

Scientists emphasize the difference between climate and weather. The climate is the overall pattern of temperature and rainfall in a given place. The weather is the temperature and rainfall in that place at a particular time. As the old quip puts it: “Climate is what you expect; weather is what you get.”

When the temperature is especially high, or rains are especially heavy or light, scientists try to assess whether the unusual conditions are the result of long-term climate change or simply reflect expected variability. So, is the current US heat wave (making this the hottest year on record), the intense Beijing flooding, or the severe Sahel drought a case of random bad weather, or merely the result of long-term, human-induced climate change?

For a long time, scientists could not answer such a question precisely. They were unsure whether a particular weather disaster could be attributed to human causes, rather than to natural variation. They could not even be sure that they could detect whether a particular event (such as a heavy rainfall or a drought) was so extreme as to lie outside the normal range.

In recent years, however, a new climate science of “detection and attribution” has made huge advances, both conceptually and empirically. Detection means determining whether an extreme event is part of usual weather fluctuations or a symptom of deeper, long-term change. Attribution means the ability to assign the likely causes of an event to human activity or other factors. The new science of detection and attribution is sharpening our knowledge – and also giving us even more cause for concern.

Several studies in the past year have shown that scientists can indeed detect long-term climate change in the rising frequency of extreme events – such as heat waves, heavy rains, severe droughts, and strong storms. By using cutting-edge climate models, scientists are not only detecting long-term climate change, but also are attributing at least some of the extreme events to human causes.

The past couple of years have brought a shocking number of extreme events all over the planet. In many cases, short-run natural factors rather than human activity played a role. During 2011, for example, La Niña conditions prevailed in the Pacific Ocean. This means that especially warm water was concentrated near Southeast Asia while colder water was concentrated near Peru. This temporary condition caused many short-term changes in rainfall and temperature patterns, leading, for example, to heavy floods in Thailand.

Yet, even after carefully controlling for such natural year-to-year shifts, scientists are also finding that several recent disasters likely reflect human-caused climate change as well. For example, human-caused warming of the Indian Ocean probably played a role in the 2011 severe drought in the Horn of Africa, which triggered famine, conflict, and hunger, affecting millions of impoverished people. The current US mega-drought probably reflects a mix of natural causes, including La Niña, and a massive heat wave intensified by human-caused climate change.

The evidence is solid and accumulating rapidly. Humanity is putting itself at increasing peril through human-induced climate change. As a global community, we will need to move rapidly and resolutely in the coming quarter-century from an economy based on fossil-fuels to one based on new, cutting-edge, low-carbon energy technologies.

The global public is ready to hear that message and to act upon it. Yet politicians everywhere are timid, especially because oil and coal companies are so politically powerful. Human well-being, even survival, will depend on scientific evidence and technological know-how triumphing over shortsighted greed, political timidity, and the continuing stream of anti-scientific corporate propaganda.


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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:14 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


KPO, I guarantee they will not read it.


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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:18 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Why read it?

I already saw that movie with Charlie Sheen and Ron Silver about it.

Since then, Charlie has paid as much as 40ka night on hotels to regularly bed a woman I'd kill to be with and Ron Silver has died.

The times, they are a-changing!


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


NIKI< people generally do not change their beliefs and habits until they are forced to change by circumstance. The obese person doesn't lose weight until a heart-attack scare, the heavy drinker doesn't stop drinking until he/she winds up attempting suicide, and the energy-guzzlers don't stop guzzling... and don't try to even understand WHY they are guzzling... until they have to pay a price.

Now, if people were to think proactively, they might see that our energy wastage is based on a number of false assumptions; that our energy use can be cut in half and still maintain a high standard of living. They might also see that changing policy to achieve that goal would require cutting across the bow of a number of powers-that-be, including the military, which would lose its relevance if it was not mucking about in the mideast protecting "our" oil.

Change is scary, and messing up the plans of the rich and powerful is even scarier.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:40 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
NIKI< people generally do not change their beliefs and habits until they are forced to change by circumstance. The obese person doesn't lose weight until a heart-attack scare, the heavy drinker doesn't stop drinking until he/she winds up attempting suicide, and the energy-guzzlers don't stop guzzling... and don't try to even understand WHY they are guzzling... until they have to pay a price.

Now, if people were to think proactively, they might see that our energy wastage is based on a number of false assumptions; that our energy use can be cut in half and still maintain a high standard of living. They might also see that changing policy to achieve that goal would require cutting across the bow of a number of powers-that-be, including the military, which would lose its relevance if it was not mucking about in the mideast protecting "our" oil.

Change is scary, and messing up the plans of the rich and powerful is even scarier.



Exactly... and that's why you all hate the rich.

Even though they're only 1% and shouldn't be counted lol....

If the other 99% were doing as bad as you were, then everyone would LOVE MOTHER NATURE, right?

Maybe you're just worse off than most of the 99% since you're the 1 in 1,000,000 bitching, right????

You're surely in the minority of people who give two shits to change anything.......

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You're surely in the minority of people who give two shits to change anything..
Still drunk, still miserable I see. How far do you think we would have gotten had the Founding Fathers decided against change?

Lay off the sauce, Jack.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:07 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

You're surely in the minority of people who give two shits to change anything..
Still drunk, still miserable I see. How far do you think we would have gotten had the Founding Fathers decided against change?

Lay off the sauce, Jack.



I guess because I don't join in the Lefty orgy against the rich I'm depressed and drunk and miserable....

Did it ever occur to you Signy, that it's been about 5 days since I've posted here?

Further than that, did it ever occur to you that Jack might just be sober?

It's sure as hell been several fortnights since I've said a needless derogatory word against a female, let alone a male.

I don't remember DC making it a point in his book in the 30's but if he wrote it today I'm guessing he would have told people to stop drinking so much if they wanted friends.





Touche.....

Fair enough, that you would use my own self admitted faults against me....

But i only plan to be here once and a while....

I'm getting off the sauce.

Funny how it seems to my pshycatrist that the darkest people I know are in the RWED, on either side.

I'll do Her a favor and never introduce any of you to Her.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, essentially what I was referring to. I agree with everything you said, and as you can see, there is a perfect example right here. Hence my snark that the deniers wouldn't bother to read what KPO put up. Sadly...

Just like the fracking/earthquake connection I put up; trying to open the eyes of those determined to stay blind is a waste of time. I put this kind of stuff up for those of us who don't choose to be blind, and assume KPO did the same.


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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:24 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sig, essentially what I was referring to. I agree with everything you said, and as you can see, there is a perfect example right here. Hence my snark that the deniers wouldn't bother to read what KPO put up. Sadly...

Just like the fracking/earthquake connection I put up; trying to open the eyes of those determined to stay blind is a waste of time. I put this kind of stuff up for those of us who don't choose to be blind, and assume KPO did the same.




In the end, whatever you and KPO and Signy put up, is just as futile as any of us who loved Firefly and wanted it to continue....

Truth hurts, I know....

All we got was a shitty movie that wrapped up 3 to 5 seasons in a pretty Hollywood bow that Joss probably pukes on.

Trilogy my ass.... unless Inara is 80 some day and recounting her years on Serenity like it was that old bitch with the jewel on The Titanic.....

Even Inara will tell you today she's too old...

I know that sucks for women, especially the women that were already too old the first time around, but it is what it is....

I know things aren't as awesome for me as they were in my mid twenties either. Maybe they would be if I admitted to everyone I knew in "real" life that I had no bills and a house, but that's the last way I want to meet a girl.....






Don't try to change their minds Signy

Part of me wants to go there now....

I could make a fortune and keep it all to myself rather than run it up with tabs on the new-age whores in the area (seriously... with that much money, don't you think we could make an awesome narrative to a follow-up to Deadwood in this situation with our creativity?)

Tupac has been my compass for years...

MOB!



"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Did it ever occur to you Niki
Wrong person, Jack.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:27 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Did it ever occur to you Niki
Wrong person, Jack.



Hehe


I thought I might have fixed that before you saw it....

Sorry for insulting you like that. :)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, Niki and I don't see eye to eye on EVERYTHING. Plus, her posts tend to be a lot longer than mine.

I sense despair in you, Jack.

One thing I try to bring to the table is TRUTH. If we can be free anywhere, we should be free in our thoughts. If we can't even think the truth, then we are truly in prison.

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Friday, August 10, 2012 7:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



" Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so."

Self reinforcing delusions are all the rage with cults, since ... forever .

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, August 10, 2012 2:20 PM

STORYMARK


Suuuuure, Rappy. Science is just like a collection of mythology.

But your favorite talk radio hosts KNOW ALL.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 10, 2012 2:37 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Suuuuure, Rappy. Science is just like a collection of mythology.

But your favorite talk radio hosts KNOW ALL.



'Junk' science and science are not the same things.



Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, August 10, 2012 2:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Let's pretend that you're here for a real discussion, and you tell us... what distinguishes "junk" science from science?

Why don't you start out by defining "science" for us?

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Friday, August 10, 2012 3:54 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's pretend that you're here for a real discussion, and you tell us... what distinguishes "junk" science from science?

Why don't you start out by defining "science" for us?



No, I'll start by explaining junk science, pertaining to this issue.

Falsifying data, placing temp measuring stations in precarious locations, ignoring data which doesn't fit into hoped for results... stuff like that.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, August 10, 2012 4:00 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
NIKI< people generally do not change their beliefs and habits until they are forced to change by circumstance. The obese person doesn't lose weight until a heart-attack scare, the heavy drinker doesn't stop drinking until he/she winds up attempting suicide, and the energy-guzzlers don't stop guzzling... and don't try to even understand WHY they are guzzling... until they have to pay a price.

Now, if people were to think proactively, they might see that our energy wastage is based on a number of false assumptions; that our energy use can be cut in half and still maintain a high standard of living. They might also see that changing policy to achieve that goal would require cutting across the bow of a number of powers-that-be, including the military, which would lose its relevance if it was not mucking about in the mideast protecting "our" oil.

Change is scary, and messing up the plans of the rich and powerful is even scarier.



Exactly... and that's why you all hate the rich.

Even though they're only 1% and shouldn't be counted lol....

If the other 99% were doing as bad as you were, then everyone would LOVE MOTHER NATURE, right?

Maybe you're just worse off than most of the 99% since you're the 1 in 1,000,000 bitching, right????

You're surely in the minority of people who give two shits to change anything.......

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book



You just don't even try to make sense anymore, do ya?


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 10, 2012 4:02 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Let's pretend that you're here for a real discussion, and you tell us... what distinguishes "junk" science from science?

Why don't you start out by defining "science" for us?



What he is told is true by right wing media.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 10, 2012 5:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Exactly... and that's why you all hate the rich.-6IX
You just don't even try to make sense anymore, do ya?-STORY

Indeed. There are probably only three comfortably wealthy ppl here... rappy, who (because he never mentions a job and defends unearned wealth with a passion) is prolly a trust-fund baby, geezer and... me. Why would I "hate the rich"?

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No, I'll start by explaining junk science, pertaining to this issue.
Falsifying data, placing temp measuring stations in precarious locations, ignoring data which doesn't fit into hoped for results... stuff like that.

So, you don't have a definition for science?

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Friday, August 10, 2012 6:20 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

No, I'll start by explaining junk science, pertaining to this issue.
Falsifying data, placing temp measuring stations in precarious locations, ignoring data which doesn't fit into hoped for results... stuff like that.

So, you don't have a definition for science?



Yeah, I do, but I'm not playing that game w/ you. What's relevant to this issue is that data have been corrupted, conclusions have been erroneously arrived at well before adequate ( and honest ) evidence can be collected and studied. There are alternate views to some issues, yet the AGW crowd is stuck in a mantra which only acknowledges their view. Period, end of discussion. And I'd be fine w/ that, were it not such a damn coincidence that their 'solutions' to the problems JUST HAPPEN to be exactly the very things the Left wingers have been fighting for, all these years.

Seriously, what ARE the odds that the very things which Leftists say need to be stamped out - capitalism, industry, use of fossil fuels, so that wealth can be redistributed across the globe, are almost identical to the AGW crowds demands.

Gibb's Rule # 39 There's no such thing as coincidence.


Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Friday, August 10, 2012 9:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I'm not playing that game w/ you
Rappy, you claim to know what "science" is well enough to be able to distinguish "real" science from "junk" science, but you refuse to explain what you think of as "real science" because you think its "playing a game"???

How can anyone possibly have a conversation with you?

Let me fill in the part that you refused to explain, using your statement as a negative example. "Falsifying data, placing temp measuring stations in precarious locations, ignoring data which doesn't fit into hoped for results." Everything you point to is about mishandling data. Good data handling isn't the ONLY aspect of science, but it is one part of it, so let's accept that good data handling is part of "real science".

As it turns out, you're not the only one to have had these qualms about the data. As I recall, I went over the Vostok ice cores and Siberian tree rings with you in detail, but it apparently wasn't good enough or didn't stick. So let me introduce former skeptic Dr Muller, who - using money from one of the Koch Brothers- claims to have fixed all of that, and winds up with the same conclusion: That the earth is warming, and that none of the other possible causes (orbital wobble, volcanoes, etc) fit the warming curve except carbon dioxide.

http://berkeleyearth.org/results-summary/

If you have some SPECIFIC problem or question about the data, ask away. But be prepared to listen to the answer, and set your skepticism aside if your objections are met. Because part of "real" science means following the data.

Quote:

Seriously, what ARE the odds that the very things which Leftists say need to be stamped out - capitalism, industry, use of fossil fuels, so that wealth can be redistributed across the globe, are almost identical to the AGW crowds demands
Now, as far as what you think of as a grand conspiracy between leftists and scientists (that scientists follow the leftists' lead) have you ever thought that maybe you have the situation bass akwards? That leftists are following the scientists' lead, and are responding to what the scientists are saying?

And maybe the right wing is busy ignoring reality? After all, wasn't it Karl Rove who dismissed studying reality by famously saying
Quote:

That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.
So the right wing appears to have no interest at all in studying reality, which should be a prerequisite for science. I would say that the right wing is actually rather busy rejecting science, seeing as much of that end of the political spectrum believes that god created the earth 6000 years ago.

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 2:48 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Credible scientist can have the exact same data and come to completely different conclusions. That there's disagreement, alone, isn't any basis for the claim of 'junk science' to be raised. What I'm talking about is the promotion of certain conclusions, like the snow line on Mt. Kilimanjaro, or the melting polar caps, as being exclusively caused by AGW, and nothing else.

Hell, even the idea that carbon is the cause of global warming, instead of the result, isn't settled.

And Karl Rove ? Seriously ? He was talking purely on politics in that quote. In politics, perception IS reality, and I think all will agree that 'spin' is often placed well above fact when it comes to being successful in politics.

But where's this leave us , if all we're gonna do is cut/paste this or that study, each claiming to be some objective arbiter in the debate over who is right? It's a never ending process, like two drunk fans in a sports bar, arguing over the designated hitter rule in baseball.

Only, in this case, buying into one position will cost us trillions of dollars, and have no real effect on anything. Even those who buy into global warming admit that to be the case.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Credible scientist can have the exact same data and come to completely different conclusions
It depends on how consistent the data is. There are no credible scientists who would argue gravity, none would argue that the world is flat, and none would argue evolution.

Of course, where the data is complex or incomplete (as in the case of evolution in the 1800s) there is room for interpretation and additional data-gathering. But taking the data as a whole, if scientists have a problem with a conclusion, they propose a new hypothesis which explains more of the data and which has a causal basis. They don't reject the bulk of the data in favor of a few selected tidbits, they incorporate it. That is how real science makes progress.

You and your so-called "real" scientists have done neither, and any of those "real" scientists that you keep pointing to who have decided to REALLY dig into the data have come over to the AGW conclusion. (Richard Muller, Bjorn Lomberg) That should tell you something.

So, is there ANY data or data analysis, or ANY person that you would trust to do the data analysis for you which would change your mind? If not, there is no point to this dsicussion, because it really isn't about the data.
Quote:

Only, in this case, buying into one position will cost us trillions of dollars, and have no real effect on anything
Logical fallacy, you are once again inserting your CONCLUSION (the very thing that has yet to be demonstrated) into the argument. Since you have not yet demonstrated the conclusion, I reject the entire sentence.

Quote:

Even those who buy into global warming admit that to be the case.
Not true. Putting (false) words in someone else's mouth. Straw man. Rejected.

Quote:

In politics, perception IS reality
In anywhere, perception is perception and reality is reality. Nowhere are the two automatically the same. You CAN fool some of the people some of the time, but if what you're doing cuts across reality's bow, sooner or later reality will run you over AND sooner or later most people will see that you're a fraud.

I see, though, that you have not addressed the idea that perhaps it is liberals who are paying attention to science, not the other way around, and I perceive that is the heart of your disquiet with the whole notion of global climate shift... not that the data is flawed or the conclusion is unsound, but that you find yourself on (what you see as) the losing side.

Rappy, there are no winners and losers in science. And in real life, losers tend to be those who mis-perceive reality and/ or those who fail to react accordingly.


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Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:40 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sorry, it's true. Not 'false', so not 'rejected'.

I also find myself on the losing side of a population of humans who believe in some sort of magical sky deity ( or deities ). The difference here is, with those who believe in God™, I'm not forced to pay a god tax or some absurd thing as the AGW nuts want to impose on all of us for the mere crime of living. ( Now, here in GA, we DID have no alcohol sales on Sunday, in grocery and liquor stores, but thankfully, that has been lifted ) The net effect of carbon credits and mandating we burn corn for fuel will be a huge drain on our economy and not a damn bit of difference in the climate.




Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
" We're all just folk. " - Mal

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, August 11, 2012 9:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I rejected your statements not because they were factually "false" but they were logically invalid.

As far as the rest of your post is concerned, you have not addressed the problems with the data which (you claim) are the basis of your disagreement, but (once again) have simply restated your conclusion. THAT kind disputation really is just one drunk in a bar. No further discussion is warranted.

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Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Seriously, Sig?

"I'm not playing that game w/ you." -

"How can anyone possibly have a conversation with you?" Obviously, one cannot, and never COULD.

"you have not addressed the problems with the data which (you claim) are the basis of your disagreement, but (once again) have simply restated your conclusion" -

"So, is there ANY data or data analysis, or ANY person that you would trust to do the data analysis for you which would change your mind? If not, there is no point to this dsicussion, because it really isn't about the data." Surely you already knew that....?

As you said, it's already been shown that an ACTUAL SCIENTIST, funded by the Koch Brothers, has reversed his stance and admits to global warming and that nothing but carbon dioxide explains it. How he can dismiss someone FUNDED by the biggest source of right-wing funding around has been "bought off" or isn't a "real scientist" or something, yet he will cling to his denial until the cows come home. When the cows do come home and we're all suffering the results, he'll probably STILL deny it's global warming...he'll come up with some kind of left-wing conspiracy intended to poison us all or something.

You're right, no further discussion is warranted. Nor was it warranted in the first place; the end result was a foregone conclusion. You already KNOW what Raptor is:



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Sunday, August 12, 2012 6:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


NIKI, roughly every two months I provide rappy with an opportunity for a real conversation. If all he ever gets here is derision, that's all he'll ever expect.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 12:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It seems to work for him.


SignyM: I swear, if we really knew what was being decided about us in our absence, and how hosed the government is prepared to let us be, we would string them up.

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Monday, August 13, 2012 1:42 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

So, is there ANY data or data analysis, or ANY person that you would trust to do the data analysis for you which would change your mind? If not, there is no point to this dsicussion, because it really isn't about the data.



Which is of course, the case. This is why he can respond to a well reasoned and sourced post like yours with "Nuh-uh. Yer wrong. I win!"

Your offering of honest discourse is noble, but pointless.


Note to anyone - Please pity the poor, poor wittle Rappyboy. He's feeling put upon lately, what with all those facts disagreeing with what he believes.

"Goram it kid, let's frak this thing and go home! Engage!"

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Friday, August 17, 2012 2:28 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER






Decimated kelp 'jungles' listed as endangered

THEY are the mighty rainforests of the ocean, towering up to 25 metres from the seabed. Like many forests on land, the giant kelp jungles in the waters off south-east Australia are gravely threatened by climate change, scientists say.

In some areas off the east coast of Tasmania they have shrunk by more than 95 per cent, according to CSIRO experts.

The threat is so serious Environment Minister Tony Burke has listed the forests as endangered - the first time a marine ecological community has been given such protection under federal environmental law.

''Giant kelp forests are being progressively lost due to a warming of the sea surface temperature caused by climate change, invasive species and changing land use and coastal activities that contribute to increased sedimentation and runoff and biodiversity loss,'' Mr Burke told The Saturday Age yesterday.
Advertisement

The forests are a rich ecosystem and habitat for important species, including black lip abalone and southern rock lobster.

His remarks came as the CSIRO released a marine health snapshot that provided evidence for what scientists have long suspected: climate change has strengthened the East Australian Current, which moves down the east coast, driving marine species south to seek colder waters.

The only remaining kelp forests are around south-east Tasmania, south-east South Australia and western Victoria.

Listing the forests as endangered means that restrictions could be placed on activities that exacerbate the threat, such as overfishing, dumping waste and land uses that wash too much sediment into the sea.

Karen Gowlett-Holmes, a marine biologist with the CSIRO and co-owner of Eaglehawk Dive Centre on the east coast of Tasmania, said the destruction of the kelp forests was having ''a huge impact'' on marine ecology.

''If you can imagine what happens in an area where someone comes in and clear-fells a rainforest, this is essentially what's happened,'' she said.

Dr Gowlett-Holmes said that the minimum winter water temperatures off south-eastern Tasmania had risen 20 per cent over the past two decades. Giant kelp need the cold winter waters to grow back after the natural cycle of destruction in sea storms.

Sea urchins, which devour the kelp, are at pest proportions, as they prefer warmer water and their natural predators, rock lobsters, have been overfished.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/environment/decimated-kelp-jungles-listed-as-
endangered-20120817-24e6n.html#ixzz23qvUKiGH


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