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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Are women people?
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:31 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:33 AM
BYTEMITE
Quote:Hello, I think the problem here is the attempt to use historical parameters to predict future behavior. When in fact I believe that if the future parameters change, the future behavior will change. Put everyone on an utterly even playing field, and they will all suck or shine at the same rate. --Anthony
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:38 AM
Quote: you end up sounding snarky, dismissive, even trolly. I agree with this. Even when I am arguing similar points of view, I find Byte to be a very angry and negative speaker. I assume this is especially true when she feels strongly about the subject matter. I have subjects I can be bloodthirsty about as well.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:47 AM
Quote:Of course your heart and your liver influence your psyche. How could they not?
Quote:This is shockingly specious coming from you.
Quote:I believe that these cultures are in part the result of local variation and in part universal, owing to the disparate aspects of the genders.
Quote:Well, sure, if one had no familiarity with human psychology.
Quote:If we must perpetrate a lie about gender equivalence in order to secure equal rights we don't deserve them, and good golly, we'll never get them. All humans deserve equal rights UNDER THE LAW. That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:56 AM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Quote:That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:09 AM
HKCAVALIER
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Quote: To answer your question. Absolutely not. We're talking about what gets integrated into "the self" and what gets projected onto "the other." The human who bleeds regularly, on a monthly basis, will tend to integrate bleeding into her own identity, her own sense of her own nature. It will be, relatively, destigmatized. And therefore, when that person feels enraged and wants to hurt or destroy "the other" the thought "make them bleed" is not going to be uppermost in her mind. See what I mean? Hello, I see what you are trying to say, but having encountered bleeding women on a few occasions, I can tell you that bleeding is not destigmatized, not transformed into some other experience. My empirical observations don't match your hypothesis.
Quote: To answer your question. Absolutely not. We're talking about what gets integrated into "the self" and what gets projected onto "the other." The human who bleeds regularly, on a monthly basis, will tend to integrate bleeding into her own identity, her own sense of her own nature. It will be, relatively, destigmatized. And therefore, when that person feels enraged and wants to hurt or destroy "the other" the thought "make them bleed" is not going to be uppermost in her mind. See what I mean?
Quote:Quote:Whereas, the human who has only bled as the result of some mischance, or as the result of violence perpetrated upon him, may, when wishing another person harm, come up with "make them bleed" a lot more readily. Your notion that the differing experiences of bleeding in men and women would lead women to be more violent doesn't make any kind of sense if you were to think about it for five seconds, far as I can see. Please, give me that much consideration when posting. I think it may be possible to look at this same information and come to different conclusions even after thinking past 5 seconds.
Quote:Whereas, the human who has only bled as the result of some mischance, or as the result of violence perpetrated upon him, may, when wishing another person harm, come up with "make them bleed" a lot more readily. Your notion that the differing experiences of bleeding in men and women would lead women to be more violent doesn't make any kind of sense if you were to think about it for five seconds, far as I can see. Please, give me that much consideration when posting.
Quote:You've clearly given this some thought, but that doesn't make you correct.
Quote:It's an interesting matter for contemplation, but drawing a firm conclusion from this idea would be premature. Treating it as an obvious truth derived from contemplation is flawed.
Quote:Quote:Similarly, the difference between one's entire biological contribution to a new life being the ejaculation of semen at the moment of orgasm and carrying a baby to term after 8 full months of symbiotic coexistence with the developing life, would naturally have profound consequences on a person's attitude toward the baby, no? At least statistically? The bare fact that a man can have a child without even realizing it and a woman will always know who the mother of her baby is has got to have some far reaching implications, no? This segment seems to deal with the comparative transformative effect of becoming a mother or a father, and not the difference between men and women. I agree that the process of being a mother can impact a woman. I'd also suggest that being an involved father and helping a pregnant wife can impact a man. These are major life events and should not be discounted. However, they are life events. Experiences. They do not speak to inherent qualities.
Quote:Similarly, the difference between one's entire biological contribution to a new life being the ejaculation of semen at the moment of orgasm and carrying a baby to term after 8 full months of symbiotic coexistence with the developing life, would naturally have profound consequences on a person's attitude toward the baby, no? At least statistically? The bare fact that a man can have a child without even realizing it and a woman will always know who the mother of her baby is has got to have some far reaching implications, no?
Quote:Quote:If you agree with me that gender differences having serious moral implications, what implications might those be? Actually, she agreed that imagining such differences could have profound cultural and moral implications. As in, if this is accepted, it will lead to a structure of society and common thought that may not be in her best interests.
Quote:If you agree with me that gender differences having serious moral implications, what implications might those be?
Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:19 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:Of course your heart and your liver influence your psyche. How could they not? Okay then. Tell me when you find brain wave patterns from either of them.
Quote:Quote:This is shockingly specious coming from you. Then, as Anthony said, maybe you shouldn't be equating an individual experience to a universal constant.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:32 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Quote:That has nothing to do with the facts of gender and identity and everything to do with the APPROPRIATE LIMITS OF STATE POWER. Hello, I don't think 'gender and identity' is an issue of discussion and perhaps you meant something else.
Quote:In any event, we treat cows different from humans because of perceived differences between cows and humans. Byte is concerned about this simple reality, and I think justifiably so given some recent conservative lawmaking.
Quote:She is concerned that if we perceive strong inherent differences between women and men, then as in other aspects of life where differences are perceived, different standards will be enacted in our society. This ranges from accepted social behavior to our actual legislation.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:49 AM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:30 AM
PIZMOBEACH
... fully loaded, safety off...
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: She is concerned that if we perceive strong inherent differences between women and men, then as in other aspects of life where differences are perceived, different standards will be enacted in our society. This ranges from accepted social behavior to our actual legislation. This isn't a theory. This has happened before, and is happening right now.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:45 AM
Quote:Are women (gender) people (identity)? The subject is absolutely gender and identity, and their socio-political ramifications. What do you think the subject is?
Quote:So, because conservative lawmakers tell lies about gender differences, we must throw out the very notion of gender differences as inherently unjust?
Quote:But different standards ARE enacted every day and twice on Sundays. Seems to me it's crucial that we get to the reality of these differences, and not simply pretend they don't exist in the interest of political expediency or correctness. Until we do, the regressive and oppressive forces in the world--and in our own psyches!--will always have a trump card they can play.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 10:56 AM
Quote:And this seems to be it; that you're afraid if we conclude there are differences then seriously bad consequences may happen for women? So that potential for a negative outcome influences how the data is interpreted. That's not very good social science in my opinion, even on an amateur forum level, even seems like politics influencing science. And that does feel like what's happening and not just from you.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 1:38 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Teach them something different, and many of the inherent qualities we assumed to be gifted by nature and ancient history or evolution will suddenly be proven to be purely environmental learned behaviors.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 2:58 PM
OONJERAH
Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:16 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:53 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:16 PM
Quote:Okay, that scares the heck out of me. When you say "teach them something different," and therefore essentially: "my premise will be proven," you are sounding like someone who is determined to change education to fit your program. You sound no different to me than these bastard republicans, "truth through re-education camps" I recall you using the word "indoctrination" earlier, and that also gave me the creeps - seems so out of character to me.
Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:21 PM
Quote:you keep clinging to this unreal, theoretical, what if, "If we alter the experience, new differences will present themselves."
Saturday, March 10, 2012 4:32 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 5:45 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:25 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:38 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:39 PM
Quote:How about hormones and other "organic" chemicals? - what the organs add to the blood ... Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?
Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:48 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 6:50 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:13 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Magonsdaughter: So are you trying to say that there is NO difference in aggression levels between males and females? That the fact that most violence acts are committed by men is purely cultural?
Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:48 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:50 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: "Heart, liver, kidneys, colon, etc., can they affect brain chemistry or mood?" Absolutely. Why else do you think loss of interest in cigarettes is the first symptom of hepatitis? Nausea of renal failure? Sleepiness of heart failure? If the blood/brain barrier is so good, why do people swallow, inject and smoke drugs?
Saturday, March 10, 2012 7:57 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:02 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:28 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:32 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 8:55 PM
Saturday, March 10, 2012 9:33 PM
Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:05 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Pizmo: there is plenty of science to support my position. There is NOT much support anymore for for the belief that men and women start out particularly different, and that includes on a psychological level. Grey matter and white matter function is poorly understood, and differences develop as the infants mature, which suggests to me that except for the odd outliers everything else comes from environmental pressure and culture that moulds the person and gender roles.
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: About the only differences I see are physiological sexual dimorphism, but even a lot of that might be an issue of culture. Women might gain more muscle or even release more growth hormone based on diet and activity, which can be cultural. If you want to argue bias on my part, it is because my experience as a very masculine female is probably very different from the rest of you, except perhaps Niki, but even then I seem to out-masculine her. I don't support this because I'm so scared that they're going to pass laws against me, otherwise I wouldn't have bitched out Niki early on. I don't care what they pass. Good luck enforcing it against ME and good luck making it stick for the rest of the population. I'm sure it would be as successful as prohibition. I support this interpretation because it makes the least assumptions about the way humans were early on, and doesn't base those assumptions on what we see NOW. Removing assumptions is very important to my method.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:10 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Our whole lives are education camps. And you worry about me imposing my dangerous values? What values? The value of equality? If this is your monster, then our views are wide apart. I hope we do create a society that regards women as the true equals of men. I expect that will mean they will share in all the dreams and nightmares that entails. Including every grace or sin.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 4:28 AM
Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:34 AM
Quote:Not sure if you read the posts between Anthony and myself where I suggested after Anthony's posts about physical differences between genders (as well as obvious birthing and feeding responsibilities), that those could easily explain differing, adapted behavior over time.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:40 AM
Quote:Absolutely. Why else do you think loss of interest in cigarettes is the first symptom of hepatitis? Nausea of renal failure? Sleepiness of heart failure? If the blood/brain barrier is so good, why do people swallow, inject and smoke drugs?
Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:44 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Sunday, March 11, 2012 5:59 AM
Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: To no one in particular: I'm absolutely speechless to see these responses, especially from females on the board. Men have raped and beaten women in their homes, sold them into slavery and prostitution, paid them less for their work, murdered their husbands by the millions, indoctrinated their children into female hate, and when marriage goes bad and there are children women end up more than 80% of the time being the responsible, full time parent. By an overwhelming majority men break laws and commit violence and more civil unrest than women, and mutilate their bodies so they can't enjoy sex, and when these things are pointed out what do women on this board say by a surprising percent? "naw, we're just as bad..." !!! And the irony continues, it's all within a thread that started with the latest male perpetrated evils upon women including state sponsored rape. Hey guys! We can't lose! We can step on them and they'll defend us! Is that like the nurturing thing? Like when you see the mother of a serial killer say, "I don't think he did it, he's really a nice boy." If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.
Quote: I'm glad you admit your bias and fear - I think it definitely colors your objectivity.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:28 AM
Quote:Geezus Anthony, over-wrought and condescend much? Can you do me a favor and not make these grand pronouncements
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:29 AM
Quote:Oh, Anthony, if you're around, they LOVED your sign idea. It got many honks and thumbs-up from passers by, and two women actually leaned over as they walked past and said "Thank you!"
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:38 AM
Quote:I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.
Quote:If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:50 AM
Quote:To me, it's transparent, and the question isn't whether women and men differ, it's the "Are Women People" question which is apropos to how white, male legislators seem to be viewing us nowadays. As in "Are women people with the same rights as men?"
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:52 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:Originally posted by pizmobeach: To no one in particular: I'm absolutely speechless to see these responses, especially from females on the board. Men have raped and beaten women in their homes, sold them into slavery and prostitution, paid them less for their work, murdered their husbands by the millions, indoctrinated their children into female hate, and when marriage goes bad and there are children women end up more than 80% of the time being the responsible, full time parent. By an overwhelming majority men break laws and commit violence and more civil unrest than women, and mutilate their bodies so they can't enjoy sex, and when these things are pointed out what do women on this board say by a surprising percent? "naw, we're just as bad..." !!! And the irony continues, it's all within a thread that started with the latest male perpetrated evils upon women including state sponsored rape. Hey guys! We can't lose! We can step on them and they'll defend us! Is that like the nurturing thing? Like when you see the mother of a serial killer say, "I don't think he did it, he's really a nice boy." If you can't get outraged by the differences in our inhumane behavior, especially toward you - I give up, I think maybe you're getting what you deserve. Yes, because women taking pot shots at the mental stability of men is entirely necessary for women to achieve equal rights with men. We must prove women are more awesome than men or we'll never get the respect we deserve. Also, my viewpoints are exactly the same as condoning men beating on their wives, and I love the transvaginal ultrasound.
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote: I'm glad you admit your bias and fear - I think it definitely colors your objectivity. Why do I keep talking to you? Your theories are outdated, you pretty much ignore everything I have to say or misconstrue me when you address it, and that last response was entirely irrational. Not only that, but our personalities appear to conflict in a major way, two times before I've really wanted to never talk to you again - and I've only wanted to pursue a non-violent resolution simply because we aren't having these conversations in person and I can't throw you through a window.
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Even with Sig, who I disagree a lot with, I've managed to find some realm where we can have some civility. And with HK, I actually feel a little bad when I outright dismiss her mysticism ideas, though not enough to change my mind on anything. But you? Not at all. I'm not going to make an idle threat this time about how I'm not going to talk to you. Instead, I'm going to ask YOU to not talk to ME. Is that too whiny? Is that too wishy washy and reliant on a man's condescension? How about I rephrase that. Don't talk to me. Ever again.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:53 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:To me, it's transparent, and the question isn't whether women and men differ, it's the "Are Women People" question which is apropos to how white, male legislators seem to be viewing us nowadays. As in "Are women people with the same rights as men?" That's fair. This topic has gone a little out of the way.
Sunday, March 11, 2012 6:57 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Quote:Geezus Anthony, over-wrought and condescend much? Can you do me a favor and not make these grand pronouncements Hello, You don't get to bring in re-education camps and then gasp about my over-wrought and grand pronouncements. My response was very much tonally in line with the remarkable post that preceded it, and assumed as much about your position as you did about mine. Really, now.
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