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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
GM chief Wagoner ousted by Obama
Monday, March 30, 2009 2:18 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:The chief executive of struggling US car company General Motors has been ordered to step down by US President Barack Obama. Rick Wagoner will leave immediately, a government official confirmed. Mr Obama is preparing to outline terms for offering more help to GM and fellow car giant Chrysler. The two firms have already received $17.4bn (£14.4bn) in bail-outs. Chrysler has requested a further $5bn while GM says it needs $16.7bn more. Plans rejected Reports have suggested that a frustrated Mr Obama will reject GM and Chrysler's turnaround plans as unrealistic, raising the risk of the carmakers' bankruptcy.
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:29 AM
SERGEANTX
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: It seems a violation of the basic American principle that you should be able to work where you can and earn what you can.
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:31 AM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:34 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:45 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SergeantX: And here's what scary about that. Thinking people are able to maintain the distinction between companies that throw away their right to self-determination by asking for government handouts, and those that do not. But "thinking people" are a minority. For the rest, this will establish precedent for the government as the final "decider" in business. SergeantX "Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:51 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Are you saying that if you go begging the government for money, they shouldn't have ANY say in how you spend it or what you do after that?
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:57 AM
WULFENSTAR
http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg
Monday, March 30, 2009 3:59 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Wulfenstar: How is that right?
Monday, March 30, 2009 4:01 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Wulfenstar: Does this gall anyone else? That while "we the people" will be footing the bill for these companies, GM and all the others who asked for a handout, will still be charging the same price to the American consumer? So, on top of being forced to pay for it through your taxes, if you wanted to buy one of their shitty cars...you'd still have to pay full price. How is that right?
Monday, March 30, 2009 4:19 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 4:21 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Also, as I understand it, it's pretty common for a company to be placed into receivership when it goes bankrupt, and a court or a bank will typically oust the chairman and the board of directors and install their own picks, in order to gain better custodianship of their money and their investment.
Monday, March 30, 2009 4:25 AM
WASHNWEAR
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by Wulfenstar: Does this gall anyone else? That while "we the people" will be footing the bill for these companies, GM and all the others who asked for a handout, will still be charging the same price to the American consumer? So, on top of being forced to pay for it through your taxes, if you wanted to buy one of their shitty cars...you'd still have to pay full price. How is that right? If I didn't know better, I'd say you were arguing FOR socialism or communism right there. If "we" own the means of production, should "we" just get to stand in line for free cars?
Monday, March 30, 2009 4:55 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 5:05 AM
Quote:Originally posted by WASHnwear: Yeah, but we shold at least get a mug...or a crappy 50-50 t-shirt that says "I helped bail out the Big 3 and all I got was this crappy 50-50 t-shirt!" Ya know - somethin'...
Monday, March 30, 2009 5:08 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 5:32 AM
PHOENIXROSE
You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: I find the concept that the PRESIDENT can fire an employee of a private business, coupled with the Administration's demonstrated will to punish anyone they think is making too much money, troubling.
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:01 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by WASHnwear: Yeah, but we shold at least get a mug...or a crappy 50-50 t-shirt that says "I helped bail out the Big 3 and all I got was this crappy 50-50 t-shirt!" Ya know - somethin'... How 'bout? "I kept a million auto workers, engineering and design techs, parts company employees, and auto dealer mechanics out of the unemployment lines...and all I got was this crappy t-shirt" "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:06 AM
Quote:Originally posted by PhoenixRose: Punish anyone making too much money? Are you serious? Have they started stringing up the guys at Microsoft? Google? Coca-cola?
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:17 AM
ANTHONYT
Freedom is Important because People are Important
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:24 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:27 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by PhoenixRose: Punish anyone making too much money? Are you serious? Have they started stringing up the guys at Microsoft? Google? Coca-cola? Not yet, but now they have precedent - the foot in the door, as it were. In another thread, an article about the Tesla Motor Company's new car mentioned that Tesla is getting a grant from the Dept. of Energy. So is it now all right for the government to step in and remove Tesla management and control company salary? If Microsoft or Google (or even Coke) sell to the government, does that give the government a say in their businesses? "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:30 AM
Quote: What we are watching here is the government taking control of private enterprise. It is rather much akin to going up to a vagrant on the street, putting twenty dollars in his hand, and saying, "All right, bum. Now you're going to do what I say."
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:33 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Now, of course we all think, "This will never happen" but I honestly never thought the government would interfere with legal employment contracts either. There may be valid reasons to think that the government should tell you where you can work and how much you are allowed to earn. It may be a viable form of government. But it makes me uncomfortable. I don't think it's a form of government I want our nation to adopt. --Anthony "Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:47 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Obviously you were never an air traffic controller. What did Reagan do when he fired them for asking for more money and better working conditions? He used the government to void their contracts, he used the government to tell them where they could work and how much they could earn.
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:56 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: So if you're fine with watching it all fall apart, then that's okay. Also, if you're fine with watching your neighbor's house burn to the ground and not lifting a finger to help, then that's your right as well.
Monday, March 30, 2009 6:58 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:00 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:11 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:23 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: Hello, Some points I'd like to make. First, I never feel that the government should interfere with private contracts that don't include violations of law. Were I politically aware at the time that Reagan invalidated private contracts, I would have spoken out then, as well. Second, it is a false dilemma to suggest that this is an either/or situation. This is the falsehood that has been presented to us: That we must either aid these companies (and take them over) or watch America fail. Really? Are those honestly our only options? I can't say I agree with that reasoning.
Quote: Before I spend 100 billion dollars to prop up a failing industry, I would rather dole out a thousand $100 million government grants to start up a thousand new auto and/or banking businesses. I'm sure there are other good ideas not on the table. That frustrates me. --Anthony
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:26 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by WASHnwear: Yeah, but we shold at least get a mug...or a crappy 50-50 t-shirt that says "I helped bail out the Big 3 and all I got was this crappy 50-50 t-shirt!" Ya know - somethin'... How 'bout? "I kept a million auto workers, engineering and design techs, parts company employees, and auto dealer mechanics out of the unemployment lines...and all I got was this crappy t-shirt" Well, a t-shirt like that for everyone that contributed to the bailouts, would also keep a lot of t-shirt printers busy!
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by WASHnwear: Yeah, but we shold at least get a mug...or a crappy 50-50 t-shirt that says "I helped bail out the Big 3 and all I got was this crappy 50-50 t-shirt!" Ya know - somethin'... How 'bout? "I kept a million auto workers, engineering and design techs, parts company employees, and auto dealer mechanics out of the unemployment lines...and all I got was this crappy t-shirt"
Quote:As for discounts - Well, I saw a while back where the local Nissan dealer had a special going: $18,000 off the price of a Nissan Titan pickup! That's like saying, "Buy the pickup, we'll throw in a Versa for free!" And still, Nissan sales are down some 43%...
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:39 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:42 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:46 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 7:59 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 8:00 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Wulfenstar: How bout... "Please kill me for the benefit of future generations."?
Monday, March 30, 2009 8:27 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: WashNWear: Let's make a deal - NO 50/50 tees, please! Only 100% cotton, baby. 6.1 or 7-ounce tees. Preferably ring-spun. Beefy-Tees, LofTeez, of Jerzees ZTs, if you please.
Monday, March 30, 2009 8:38 AM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:"I don't give a fuck about employees who work for a company that can't produce a viable product."
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:01 AM
CITIZEN
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: What we are watching here is the government taking control of private enterprise. It is rather much akin to going up to a vagrant on the street, putting twenty dollars in his hand, and saying, "All right, bum. Now you're going to do what I say."
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:23 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:29 AM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Gov't control of private enterprise. Folks, THAT is fascism.
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:30 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:36 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 9:46 AM
STORYMARK
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Not that Mr. Waggoner has been doing a stellar job, but I find the concept that the PRESIDENT can fire an employee of a private business, coupled with the Administration's demonstrated will to punish anyone they think is making too much money, troubling. It seems a violation of the basic American principle that you should be able to work where you can and earn what you can. At this point no one will mind, because it's just "rich" folk having their rights tampered with, but is this just the camel's nose under the tent? "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, March 30, 2009 10:22 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Tesla is getting a grant from the Dept. of Energy. So is it now all right for the government to step in and remove Tesla management and control company salary?
Quote:Originally posted by AnthonyT: buy a voting interest in the company.
Monday, March 30, 2009 10:28 AM
Quote:Gov't control of private enterprise. Folks, THAT is fascism.
Monday, March 30, 2009 10:40 AM
BYTEMITE
Monday, March 30, 2009 11:11 AM
Monday, March 30, 2009 11:50 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SergeantX: fascism is in the eye of the beholder. SergeantX
Monday, March 30, 2009 11:58 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:Gov't control of private enterprise. Folks, THAT is fascism. I keep telling ya rapo, ya got it bass akwards. Fascism is private enterprise controlling government. And we've been there and done that already, especially under Bush. --------------------------------- It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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