ACA by THGRRI

Where's the beef?

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Saturday, February 25, 2017 9:42 AM

Si Shen,

A little text in case people don't want watch or video won't play.

It's basically the GOP backing off of "Repeal and Replace" obamacare, to "Repair"

That said, Trump is still saying "Repeal and Replace" but I hope it's not "Health Savings accounts" like he said in the campaign. What a useless idea. I liked his "apply for state programs across state lines" within reason. You can't have all of America registered in Vermont. But being less locked in would be good.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 9:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

Si Shen,

A little text in case people don't want watch or video won't play.

It's basically the GOP backing off of "Repeal and Replace" obamacare, to "Repair"

That said, Trump is still saying "Repeal and Replace" but I hope it's not "Health Savings accounts" like he said in the campaign. What a useless idea. I liked his "apply for state programs across state lines" within reason. You can't have all of America registered in Vermont. But being less locked in would be good.

I would hope if the video doesn't work someone would say so. Anyway, thanks for explaining what it is about. I think it plays because it plays for me even when I am not logged in. The ACA detractors here are afraid to speak. The number one slam here against Obama was the Affordable Care Act. Now that the Republicans hold all three branches of government, they cower. They could end it tomorrow so why does it still exist?

The house voted like 60 times to repeal it. So repeal it. And all those here that wanted it done in the first week of Trumps presidency, are now silent on the subject.

As I said, where's the beef. I'll tell you. They won't repeal it. They'll work on it as the democrats wanted since it's inception and claim they did what they promised, repealed it, bullshit. The ACA will endure.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 10:26 AM

True, the same corporations rule both parties.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:03 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
True, the same corporations rule both parties.

This is what a Republican Congress wants you to believe, so that you will also believe that a Republican Congress is no worse than a Democratic Congress, yet better in other ways. Except there is a difference about ACA.

Republicans hate Obamacare for two reasons. It demonstrates that the government can make people's lives better, and it's paid for in large part with taxes on the wealthy. Republicans' overriding goal is to make those taxes go away. And if getting those taxes cut means that quite a few people end up dying, remember: freedom! And who thinks freedom and lower taxes for the wealthy (there is a special tax on the wealthy to pay for ACA) are same? Republican Speaker of the House Paul Ryan @Pryan , who tweeted:

Freedom is the ability to buy what you want to fit what you need. Obamacare is Washington telling you what to buy regardless of your needs.
12:38 PM - 21 Feb 2017
https://twitter.com/PRyan/status/834140136082284544

The entire point of health insurance is that you don’t know what your needs are going to be. Paul Ryan does not know your needs.

Technically speaking, no one “needs” insurance right up until the moment they get sick or injured. That’s the entire point of having it.

At the moment, I don’t “need” chemotherapy or expensive prescription medications…but some day soon I might. This isn’t rocket science.

If you left it up to people to “only buy what they need” for health insurance, most would probably choose crappy mini-meds like this: McDonald's”McCrew Care” benefits requires employees to pay $56 per month for basic coverage that provides up to $2,000 in benefits in a year. Wow, $2,000 in benefits per year? Awesome! That's enough to cover one day in the hospital per year, and absolutely nothing else whatsoever!

…so you end up with most people being severely underinsured, then not having any meaningful coverage at all when they actually need it.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
True, the same corporations rule both parties.
This is what a Republican Congress wants you to believe, so that you will also believe that a Republican Congress is no worse than a Democratic Congress, yet better in other ways. Except there is a difference about ACA.

Republicans hate Obamacare for two reasons. It demonstrates that the government can make people's lives better, and it's paid for in large part with taxes on the wealthy. Republicans' overriding goal is to make those taxes go away. And if getting those taxes cut means that quite a few people end up dying, remember: freedom! And who thinks freedom and lower taxes for the wealthy (there is a special tax on the wealthy to pay for ACA) are same? Republican Speaker of the House Paul Ryan @Pryan , who tweeted:

Freedom is the ability to buy what you want to fit what you need. Obamacare is Washington telling you what to buy regardless of your needs.
12:38 PM - 21 Feb 2017
https://twitter.com/PRyan/status/834140136082284544

The entire point of health insurance is that you don’t know what your needs are going to be. Paul Ryan does not know your needs.

Technically speaking, no one “needs” insurance right up until the moment they get sick or injured. That’s the entire point of having it.

At the moment, I don’t “need” chemotherapy or expensive prescription medications…but some day soon I might. This isn’t rocket science.

If you left it up to people to “only buy what they need” for health insurance, most would probably choose crappy mini-meds like this: McDonald's”McCrew Care” benefits requires employees to pay $56 per month for basic coverage that provides up to $2,000 in benefits in a year. Wow, $2,000 in benefits per year? Awesome! That's enough to cover one day in the hospital per year, and absolutely nothing else whatsoever!

…so you end up with most people being severely underinsured, then not having any meaningful coverage at all when they actually need it.

Yep, and with the Republicans facts like there were 40 million Americans going without health care was acceptable. The proof is in that they didn't seem to want to do anything about it. Since Hilary they would sit and wait and then smack down any attempt to change that. Sorry wrong, it's really for the past 80 years.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 1:31 PM

Second,

this is a deeply personal issue for me so apologies in advance for the rant, but just read what I have to say, rather than treat it like an enemy at the gates. I might lose might life on this issue, and have already lost someone very dear to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by second:

This is what a Republican Congress wants you to believe

If so, I never hear it. unless it's posted here. I never see it on FB or Twitter. I have no TV, and they don't cover it either.

Quote:
Except there is a difference about ACA.

Republicans hate Obamacare for two reasons. It demonstrates that the government can make people's lives better

It's evil. I'm a democrat, and I've been calling it Mengelecare since my sister's death, now it's killing me too.

Quote:
and it's paid for in large part with taxes on the wealthy.

?? No, it's not. Not at all. Not even a tiny bit. It's a corporate financial product you're forced to buy. It replaces govt. funded point of service medicaid. I lost my healthcare under obamacare, and now I have an obamacare package, and I cannot get healthcare. Denial of care, bureaucratic nightmare.

Quote:
Republicans' overriding goal is to make those taxes go away.

Not those taxes. But yes, taxes are something they want rid of. They're right about that. We used to have no taxes.

Quote:
And if getting those taxes cut means that quite a few people end up dying,

sure, but not from that. repeal of obamacare is something i wholeheartedly support. I also support getting rid of federal taxes. nothing comes from it but war.

Quote:
Paul Ryan @Pryan , who tweeted:

Freedom is the ability to buy what you want to fit what you need. Obamacare is Washington telling you what to buy regardless of your needs.
12:38 PM - 21 Feb 2017

He's right about that, he's a douche, but he's right, it's forced consumerism.

Quote:
The entire point of health insurance is that you don’t know what your needs are going to be. Paul Ryan does not know your needs.

No, it's a corporate financial product. It's about making money. I remember before insurance, and a doctor's visit was no more expensive than a restaurant.

Quote:
Technically speaking, no one “needs” insurance right up until the moment they get sick or injured. That’s the entire point of having it.

No one needs it. We need rid of the system

Quote:
At the moment, I don’t “need” chemotherapy

No one does. I've done years of cancer research. Chemo is a scam. It's not the way to treat cancer. If you know someone with cancer who needs help, ask me. I know a ton about the subject. That's sincere. I started this post thinking you had cancer, and that worried me, that you would be putting your faith in obamacare, insurance and chemo. All of which are financial schemes. Republicans would love them if they had thought of them themselves.

See, I have to disagree: republicans do not want me to think they're democrats, the same as, owned and corrupt like democrats, they want me to think they're religious people bound to values. The democrats want me to believe they care about me, and everyone, are not not corporate pawns. They're both lying. They're all corporate pawns. That's how they got the millions and billions to run candidates for office.

Quote:
or expensive prescription medications…but some day soon I might. This isn’t rocket science.

No, I know a fair amount about rocket science, but this is economics.

I can't stress this enough: Read some books on economics. Everyone, esp. people on the left. Political ideologies are based on faith in politicans, liars, and you don't need that faith if you actually understand their game. Politicans control one thing: how we spend money. So, who else would pay to get the job but some sort of financial schemer. Trump will probably be good at it, for that reason. That's who he is. But will that good be good for us, or just good for him? I suspect the latter, but I'm willing to wait and find out.

Quote:
If you left it up to people to “only buy what they need” for health insurance, most would probably choose crappy mini-meds like this: McDonald's”McCrew Care” benefits requires employees to pay $56 per month for basic coverage that provides up to $2,000 in benefits in a year. Wow, $2,000 in benefits per year? Awesome! That's enough to cover one day in the hospital per year, and absolutely nothing else whatsoever!

Second, you're missing the point by a mile. I remember the system that you bought what you needed. We were extremely poor, family of 5 living on $7/day, in new york. We never had a problem where we could not afford healthcare. Because there wasn't any insurance, so it was in the doctor's interests to sell their services and fill their calendar, and there were a lot more doctors per person because there was less money, and so there was no added benefit for doctors lobbies like the AMA to block people from the profession.

That isn't healthcare that McDonald's is selling, it's insurance. But before insurance, sure, $2000 would have been plenty. $7/day is not much of $2000 a year. Mind you, none of us had any insurance. My sister had a life threatening neurodegenrative disease that required constant medical attention. And the hospitals would sell it to us. It was illegal for them to turn us away, because that would be reckless endangerment of human life (a supreme court decision of maybr 1955? something like that) And anyway, they therefor had to make the best out of the situation, but it wasn't a cut rate for us. the nation was like that. Our doctor's visits started at $3.

What went wrong? Insurance. Get the financial sector into anything, energy, education, healthcare, housing, prices go through the roof, so to speak. It's that rent-a-center mentality.

Anyway, here I am, with a terminal illness, treating myself, with alternatives, and my own knowledge, because I cannot get healthcare because of Obamacare. It's probably irreversible at this point, but could have been treated easily if I'd had access. my sister would still be alive if she'd had access. She also wasn't poor and obscure, she was a VA hospital admin. and had been an ardent Obama supporter. And he killed her anyway.

So, sure, I'm still a democrat, I don't spend a lot of time listening to republicans in congress. Give me a Bernie Sanders, sure, give me a Jimmy Carter, and I'm happy. But no more corporate pawns, warmongers, just generally evil people, I have no use for them. I don't need pirate pasta to show me them in a satanic ritual, I can tell they're evil from their policies.

While I was typing this I was listening to Trump on Siggie's thread. I heard
Trump say he would undo obamacare and get me back my plan. I doubt it, I don't think he can. New York state cancelled my plan because it was a budget cut Cuomo thought he could get away with because Obamacare would pick up the slack. I don't see how Trump can make Cuomo do something, but maybe Trump'll do what said on the campaigntrail, and let us apply across state borders. I like that. I don't like the thing he said about health savings accounts. what, take my money annd then give it back to me if i'm sick? that's worse than nothing. just "don't take my money" in the first place.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 1:32 PM

Si Shen

Don't confuse healthcare with health insurance. that's like conflating driving with car insurance. You can't hop in your car insurance and take it to california.

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 3:08 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Yes. So good to see somebody who gets it. If insurance was never in play, doctors could only charge what people could afford.

I said it before, but I'll say it again. My brother had a massive brain hemmorage and suffered multiple strokes when he was 6 years old. He spent almost six months in the hospital after having the best neurosurgeon in the country operate on him. Not just room and board, but physical therapy included every day he was there after waking up from the coma. The entire bill to the insurance company for that in 1989? $200,000.

Fast forward to 2010 and he swallows a bunch of anti-depressant pills. Not only would they not have killed him, but they didn't even pump his stomach. He spent 10 days in the hospital for what was essentially baby sitting duty with a few IV bags. What was the bill? $80,000.

Don't tell me that was inflation. If the inflation rate was that high, you'd be paying $30-50 for a gallon of milk.

And it's not the rich that pay for obamacare. My parents aren't anything close to rich. Their premiums have gone up nearly about 250% and their deductibles have doubled since the ACA was passed.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 3:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Yes. So good to see somebody who gets it. If insurance was never in play, doctors could only charge what people could afford.

I said it before, but I'll say it again. My brother had a massive brain hemmorage and suffered multiple strokes when he was 6 years old. He spent almost six months in the hospital after having the best neurosurgeon in the country operate on him. Not just room and board, but physical therapy included every day he was there after waking up from the coma. The entire bill to the insurance company for that in 1989? $200,000.

Fast forward to 2010 and he swallows a bunch of anti-depressant pills. Not only would they not have killed him, but they didn't even pump his stomach. He spent 10 days in the hospital for what was essentially baby sitting duty with a few IV bags. What was the bill? $80,000.

Don't tell me that was inflation. If the inflation rate was that high, you'd be paying $30-50 for a gallon of milk.

And it's not the rich that pay for obamacare. My parents aren't anything close to rich. Their premiums have gone up nearly about 250% and their deductibles have doubled since the ACA was passed.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

Thank you. ya'know, 6, sometimes you make me redunant. I had my face ripped off in that accident in '89. I had to have reconstructive surgery and insurance existed but wouldn't cover it. I had to shell out the eighty bucks myself.

The system has gotten out of control. Someone posted it here earlier, but everyone should look up the chemo scam. Chemo and radiation are the only things the doctors are allowed to sell you themselves, and insurance covers very little. With complete us govt worker coverage, which is the same plan congress gives themselves, my sister was paying 48,000 a year out of pocket for chemo. that was the co-pay, out of the $250k. Here's what they didn't tell us: the doc buys the chemo for 4-5 grand and sells it himself at a profit. The second, the insurance company never paid the other 200k and everyone knew they wouldn't, it was only there to justify the copay. And everyone knew that the treatement would make her worse. Worse than that, they experimented on her with drugs that were not tested, not approved, and that's what did her in, despite our complaints to the docs, the hospitals, and going directly to the head of oncology at the NIH headquarters in DC in person to complain. Nada.

Keep it Shiny

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 4:40 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

... republicans ... want me to think they're religious people bound to values. The democrats want me to believe they care about me, and everyone, are not not corporate pawns. They're both lying. They're all corporate pawns. That's how they got the millions and billions to run candidates for office.

Give me a Bernie Sanders, sure, give me a Jimmy Carter, and I'm happy. But no more corporate pawns, warmongers, just generally evil people, I have no use for them. ... I can tell they're evil from their policies.

Oh hallelujah! DT.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 5:00 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I've been pretty agnostic about Obamacare, because I couldn't predict how it would work out where it counts - for people.

It had some hideous parts - like people being forcibly shoveled into paying an insurance company for an insurance plan, and the fact that screening was free BUT TREATMENT WASN'T NECESSARILY COVERED. It had some mediating parts, for example 85% of insurance premiums had to go for actual healthcare, and that pre-existing conditions couldn't be denied. But in terms of predicting how that would work out overall, there were too many unknowns to even guess.

But the results are in. As an aside, I want to point out that for sure the government has ALL the numbers. Average premiums, average copays, number of people receiving care, total of payments by private citizens, total government payments, numbers and types of care received, etc. And I guarantee they've crunched them every way from Sunday. But they're very hard to find, and that makes me think right at the start, that things aren't going well.

But there are SOME publicly available numbers.

For example, major insurers are leaving the market because they can no longer make money.

Premiums and copays for people who can least afford it are going beyond reach.

And, AFTER OBAMACARE, JUST AS MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING BANKRUPT DUE TO MEDICAL EXPENSES AS BEFORE.

Does that sound like it's doing what was promised? Or needed?

Having looked at the available figures at length (and posted elsewhere, with links), I've concluded that there are fatal issues with Obamacare.

One is that the backlog of needed medical care far outstripped any savings Obamacare might have generated to pay for them.

The other is that the medical system itself is built to GENERATE PROFIT at every step of the way - doctors, hospitals, pharmacies, pharmaceutical manufacturers, medical equipment, medical supplies, laboratory testing, high-tech imaging, insurance - rather than provide actual care.

What was needed was a wholesale rebuilding of the medical system. What we got was wallpaper.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Si Shen

Don't confuse healthcare with health insurance. that's like conflating driving with car insurance. You can't hop in your car insurance and take it to california.

Not confusing it. I know there are a lot of problems with the ACA. Just like there was with SSI and Medicaid. It took time to work out the kinks. The Republicans blocked any chance of tweaking it to make it better. Instead they worked with all their might to prevent it from working.

When Bush created an unfunded 1.2 trillion dollar drug prescription plan that started falling apart, Democrats stepped in and helped fix it. See the difference?

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 7:05 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Just like there was (a lot of problems) with SSI and Medicaid.

cite?

Quote:
an unfunded 1.2 trillion dollar drug prescription plan that ... Democrats stepped in and helped fix

cite?

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Sunday, February 26, 2017 10:00 PM

In the way that this is not trolling, 1kiki has a valid point that I'm in agreement with.

I know that the left liked to call Bush policies unfunded mandates, but he actually did budget a trillion dollars to Prescription D, which I would call pretty well funded.

As for medicaid and SSI, I did not notice any issues with those programs.
Still actually dying over here as a result of the replacement of SSI with Obamacare, so I'm not neutral on the topic.

Still, I guess is this opinion or fact?

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Monday, February 27, 2017 12:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Quote:
Just like there was (a lot of problems) with SSI and Medicaid.
cite?
Quote:
an unfunded 1.2 trillion dollar drug prescription plan that ... Democrats stepped in and helped fix
cite?

Don't need cites. Just cut and paste into a search what you quoted and you'll get pages of sites ( articles ) to pick from.

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Monday, February 27, 2017 2:48 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

THUGGER admits he's a troll
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61371&p=1#1
024017
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61329&p=3
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61343
and
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61366

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, February 27, 2017 3:19 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

DT

FWIW you're the second person I know from NYS that got screwed with Obamacare.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Monday, February 27, 2017 8:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
DT

FWIW you're the second person I know from NYS that got screwed with Obamacare.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

We used to have a great healthcare system. Now we have national Auschwitz. Cuomo is equally to blame.

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Monday, February 27, 2017 8:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
THUGGER admits he's a troll
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61371&p=1#1
024017
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61329&p=3
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61343
and
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61366

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

1kiki

I try to avoid comments about users, but I clicked.

The first thread, he's not even on. You might want to see to that.
Second, there's okay a couple of posts that are tacit admissions to being a troll, I'll grant, and a fair amount of posts that seem to have no other purpose. But if so, why feed him at all?

My summation from scanning those, and others, is that he's the Citizen here. But you have ask yourself why you're being the Kwicko?

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Monday, February 27, 2017 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
THUGGER admits he's a troll
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61371&p=1#1
024017
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61329&p=3
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61343
and
here http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61366

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

1kiki

I try to avoid comments about users, but I clicked.

The first thread, he's not even on. You might want to see to that.
Second, there's okay a couple of posts that are tacit admissions to being a troll, I'll grant, and a fair amount of posts that seem to have no other purpose. But if so, why feed him at all?

My summation from scanning those, and others, is that he's the Citizen here. But you have ask yourself why you're being the Kwicko?

Great dreamtrove, lets see the posts by me that shows what you and 1kiki claim. I too followed the links and there's nothing there. Send your sockpuppet there as well. Maybe she can find something we all missed.

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Thursday, March 2, 2017 1:30 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
1kiki

I try to avoid comments about users, but I clicked.

The first thread, he's not even on. You might want to see to that.
Second, there's okay a couple of posts that are tacit admissions to being a troll, I'll grant, and a fair amount of posts that seem to have no other purpose. But if so, why feed him at all?

My summation from scanning those, and others, is that he's the Citizen here. But you have ask yourself why you're being the Kwicko?

Whatever. I really don't care what you think because you seem to think it's ok that THUGGER has followed me from thread to thread calling me a Russian troll for YEARS because of the things I don't post.

But you get tweaked when I return the favor one time.

BTW, my opinion of Kwicko was extremely high.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Thursday, March 2, 2017 2:33 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

On another topic, your idea that insurance (money) distorted the medical marketplace and turned it into 1) a big-money racket and 2) screwed the consumer with only a consumer's ability to pay is interesting.

For myself, I'd need to see that insurance coverage (numbers of people, dollar amounts, services covered) went up first, followed by prices. But like a lot of other interesting things, I don't have the time to do the research. So unless you or someone can provide me with supporting information, I'm going to put that into the 'interesting/ waiting for information' bin.

How did your beloved 'democratic' party fuck up so badly?

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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 10:44 AM

The most salient political point concerning the ACA is, if the Republicans pass this new health care bill, the Democrats will win back the House and Senate in the midterm elections.

The second most important political point is that Trumps support system will shrink by %15%. Tolerance for his lying and destructive behavior concerning our democratic institutions will wane.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 12:12 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
The most salient political point concerning the ACA is ...

...different than what you might expect. The CBO's other bombshell: the Affordable Care Act is NOT imploding.

Trump can “fix” Obamacare by doing nothing.

Beyond its eye-popping findings on higher premiums and large-scale coverage loss, the Congressional Budget Office’s official score of the American Health Care Act also quietly demolishes the central publicly stated rationale for repealing the Affordable Care Act (ACA). The key passage is a somewhat jargon-full sentence on the second page of the report that says, “In CBO and JCT’s assessment, however, the nongroup market would probably be stable in most areas under either current law or the legislation.”

Since this is a score of a proposed bill, the rest of the discussion naturally focuses on the “legislation” side of the ledger. But the assessment that markets will stabilize under current law is critical. President Trump’s central argument for repeal and replace is that the Affordable Care Act is “imploding,” so some kind of radical change is necessary. But the notion of "implosion" has given the campaign for a massive rewrite a sense of urgency that, according to the CBO, is basically NOT warranted.

www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/14/14921594/obamacare-implosion
-ahca

But there is more! Republicans already managed to effectively repeal Obamacare without passing a single page of legislation. Even if the godawful Republican repeal effort fails, there's every reason to think that Congress will try again. What's more, it's clear that they'll do everything they can to undermine Obamacare along the way. In a few months, insurance companies have to decide whether they want to participate in the exchange market in 2018, and I wonder what they'll decide? The uncertainty is sky high now, and that means they have little incentive to continue. Remember, most insurers swallowed big losses early on in hopes of building a stable, profitable market later. But what's the point of absorbing losses if it looks like—at best—years and years of chaos ahead?

It may be that 2018 is safe. The exchanges are pretty close to profitable now, and it's probably worth it for most insurers to stay on board for at least another year to see what happens. Still, I wonder. Merely by upending everything and making it clear just how dedicated they are to cutting taxes on the rich and cutting health coverage for the poor, have Republicans already managed to effectively repeal Obamacare without passing a single page of legislation?

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/03/obamacare-already-dead

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, March 14, 2017 9:32 PM

Trump loyalists sound alarm over ‘RyanCare,’ endangering health bill

A simmering rebellion of conservative populists loyal to President Trump is further endangering the GOP health-care push, with a chorus of influential voices suspicious of the proposal warning the president to abandon it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-loyalists-sound-alarm-ov
er-ryancare-endangering-health-bill/2017/03/14/cfc187e6-08dc-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html?utm_term=.0224f700d2ae

---------------------

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Wednesday, March 15, 2017 4:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:

Whatever. I really don't care what you think because you seem to think it's ok that THUGGER has followed me from thread to thread calling me a Russian troll for YEARS because of the things I don't post.

But you get tweaked when I return the favor one time.

BTW, my opinion of Kwicko was extremely high.

So was mine, but i can snark mike in his absence, because he's the reason i left. A bunch of lefty trolls were dogging me on some issue, and i said something about not being in any mood for a debate, and mike said something about oh, look DT is hiding behind his dead sister. That was enough for me.

Similarly, it was Mal4Prez and Byte who kicked CTS off, for all that she says it was Sig. I checked the logs. The fact is, we can't be emotionally affected by people whose input we *don't* care about.

It's like here, the above, discussion defending Mengelecare. Why argue?

If someone defends the indefensible, or promotes something on that level of pure evil, then they probably wouldn't acknowledge the truth if it were beating them to death with a led pipe.

If I explained that comment, some troll would just ask me to waste my time proving the obvious, rather than ever spend their time in search of the truth. If someone is already not reading both a left and right perspective on an issue, they're willfully ignorant and probably psychologically invested, and no amount of evidence or investment would ever sway them from their protective bubble.

My point is, who really suffers and who really benefits from trying to correct immovable objects.

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Wednesday, March 15, 2017 8:46 PM

Lets see if Republicans kill the Trump/Ryan replacement health care bill. If they do it's because their constituents don't want it. That will be the proof it sucks. No need for me to debate the details.

If they do manage to pass it. Goodbye house and senate in 2018 and presidency in 2020.

---------------------

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Friday, March 24, 2017 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:
Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:

Si Shen,

A little text in case people don't want watch or video won't play.

It's basically the GOP backing off of "Repeal and Replace" obamacare, to "Repair"

That said, Trump is still saying "Repeal and Replace" but I hope it's not "Health Savings accounts" like he said in the campaign. What a useless idea. I liked his "apply for state programs across state lines" within reason. You can't have all of America registered in Vermont. But being less locked in would be good.

I would hope if the video doesn't work someone would say so. Anyway, thanks for explaining what it is about. I think it plays because it plays for me even when I am not logged in. The ACA detractors here are afraid to speak. The number one slam here against Obama was the Affordable Care Act. Now that the Republicans hold all three branches of government, they cower. They could end it tomorrow so why does it still exist?

The house voted like 60 times to repeal it. So repeal it. And all those here that wanted it done in the first week of Trumps presidency, are now silent on the subject.

As I said, where's the beef. I'll tell you. They won't repeal it. They'll work on it as the democrats wanted since it's inception and claim they did what they promised, repealed it, bullshit. The ACA will endure.

---------------------

Told ya

---------------------

SIG says I'm a deep state troll.

oh me, oh my.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 7:15 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Trump said today, “I never said I was going to repeal and replace in the first 61 days.” In fact, Trump said repeatedly as a candidate and before his inauguration that he would work to repeal the ACA on his first day in office. And congressional Republicans have spent the last seven years campaigning to undo the law.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/house-republican-leaders-abruptly-pull
-their-rewrite-of-the-nation%E2%80%99s-health-care-law/ar-BByG2V1?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, March 24, 2017 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by second:
Trump said today, “I never said I was going to repeal and replace in the first 61 days.” In fact, Trump said repeatedly as a candidate and before his inauguration that he would work to repeal the ACA on his first day in office. And congressional Republicans have spent the last seven years campaigning to undo the law.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/house-republican-leaders-abruptly-pull
-their-rewrite-of-the-nation%E2%80%99s-health-care-law/ar-BByG2V1?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Yep, guess he's just a " LOSER "

---------------------

SIG says I'm a deep state troll.

oh me, oh my.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 8:08 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 8:44 PM

JO753

rezident owtsidr

Ryan sed "big stuf iz hard to do."

After laffing about that for a few owrz, I feel a litl sorry for him.

----------------------------
DUZ XaT SEM RiT TQ YQ? - Jubal Early

http://www.7532020.com

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Friday, March 24, 2017 8:49 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

I have no opinion on this. Obamacare is god-awful. Its replacement would also have been god-awful, but in a different way. There is no daylight between one kind of god-awful and another.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 9:35 PM

6STRINGJOKER

Obamacare was designed to fail, and quickly. It was unsustainable from the start. The Dems are probably thankful that they don't have power in any of the legislative branches at the moment so rather than be blamed for the failure, they can demonize the other side for getting rid of it.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 10:08 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
"I don't care so screw everyone else," says Kiki.

Actually 'G', I posted that I have no opinion because both plans were - I used this word - god-awful. You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere where I've indicated that I don't care.

In any case, YOU care so little that you've not posted one thing in this thread, except to troll. I guess trolling is all you care about.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Friday, March 24, 2017 11:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just as an aside, the failure to "repeal and replace" Obamacare just proves my earlier point about the limits of Presidential power:

The President of the USA has ONE .... repeat ONE ... area of strength:

FOREIGN POLICY.

TTP?

POOF!

TTIP?

POOF!

Domestic policy??? NOT SO MUCH!

That is why when "some" people (ahem!) were running at the mouth/ fingertips, breathlessly hyperventilating about Trump's fascist powers ... yanno, really, that is at the control of Congress.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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Friday, March 24, 2017 11:36 PM

RIVERLOVE

Ain't it a shame, to be shot down in flames..

Perhaps Paul Ryan can get his old soda jerk job back at the Kokomo Dairy Queen. They offer Dental now.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:18 AM

Well, tell "us" Kiki what are the publicly available numbers on just how many people are going bankrupt - you know, before O-Care and after O-Care.

Enquiring minds want to know.

What fatal issues? What exactly are those numbers you speak of?

"The other is that the medical system itself is built to GENERATE PROFIT at every step of the way - doctors, hospitals, pharmacies, pharmaceutical manufacturers, medical equipment, medical supplies, laboratory testing, high-tech imaging, insurance - rather than provide actual care."

The above existed long before the ACA came into being, hence the need for affordable care. Whereas TrumpCare was built solely for extreme profits and having the "poor schmucks" pay for said profits. Followed by actual death panels. Ahhhh, the glorious Death Panels, remember them!?

Well, despite it's flaws, it looks like it will be around for a while.
What I don't understand is what do the Russians have to do with the epic fail of TrumpCare. I guess that will remain a Deep State secret.

Wait, I just thought of something. Didn't Trump blame the Dems for the failure to Repeal and Replace the ACA? Funny, I thought he would have blamed Obama.

SGG

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:20 AM

A perfect sentiment! Bravo!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Ain't it a shame, to be shot down in flames..

Perhaps Paul Ryan can get his old soda jerk job back at the Kokomo Dairy Queen. They offer Dental now.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:22 AM

Kremlin spank!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Just as an aside, the failure to "repeal and replace" Obamacare just proves my earlier point about the limits of Presidential power:

The President of the USA has ONE .... repeat ONE ... area of strength:

FOREIGN POLICY.

TTP?

POOF!

TTIP?

POOF!

Domestic policy??? NOT SO MUCH!

That is why when "some" people (ahem!) were running at the mouth/ fingertips, breathlessly hyperventilating about Trump's fascist powers ... yanno, really, that is at the control of Congress.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR IS A DEEP-STATE TROLL

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 4:23 AM

OMG! He's on to us!

Ha!

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Obamacare was designed to fail, and quickly. It was unsustainable from the start. The Dems are probably thankful that they don't have power in any of the legislative branches at the moment so rather than be blamed for the failure, they can demonize the other side for getting rid of it.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 7:48 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Well, tell "us" Kiki what are the publicly available numbers on just how many people are going bankrupt - you know, before O-Care and after O-Care.

Enquiring minds want to know.

Google is useful if you REALLY want to know.
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/03/08/468892489/medical-
bills-still-take-a-big-toll-even-with-insurance
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5019364/
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100840148
There's plenty more if you search.

Quote:
What fatal issues? What exactly are those numbers you speak of?

In 2011 the CDC said there were 18.8 million people diagnosed with diabetes and 7.0 million people were undiagnosed. In 2014 the CDC said there were 21 million people with diabetes and 8.1 million undiagnosed. https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/pubs/pdf/ndfs_2011.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/diabetes/data/statistics/2014statisticsreport.html
Since screening is free - why has the number of undiagnosed people gone up?

The other thing about Obamacare is that, while health screening is free, treatment is not. And since co-pays and deductibles are going up, it means that people may not be able to afford treatment. In 2011 73,282 died due to diabetes, a chronic but manageable disease. In 2014, that number went up to 76,488. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf

But if you look at ALL manageable chronic diseases: Diseases of heart, Chronic lower respiratory diseases, Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis, Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis, and Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease, and yes, diabetes - deaths have ALL gone up by the thousands in 3 short years.

65,274 MORE people died of treatable chronic disease in 2014 than 2011. Does that indicate Obamacare is bringing people better medical care?

And then of course, there are all the insurers who've left the market because the deep, deep well of unmet medical need was far more expensive to fill than anyone guessed.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 8:12 AM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Leave it to you to take your boy Trump's defeat and 24 million people not losing their coverage and turn it into something about you and how right you were. G@ddamn priceless.

And yet not a single post from you about all those people dying from lack of medical care. ALL you seem to be interested in is trolling.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 8:19 AM

6STRINGJOKER

I'm glad the current proposal was shot down. All it really was doing was eliminating the tax you have to pay for not having healthcare. Since the only reason the Supreme Court passed the ACA in the first place was because the deciding vote was granted by a Republican judge on the grounds that ACA was a tax.

Take away that tax and not only is ACA unconstitutional, but basically it doesn't even exist anymore and all that was accomplished in the last few years was that we managed to double the price of healthcare across the board and double the deductibles.

Something will be done about it.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 10:00 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
I'm glad the current proposal was shot down. All it really was doing was eliminating the tax you have to pay for not having healthcare.

It really did $600 billion in tax breaks from 'Trumpcare'.
www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/mar/21/mark-pocan/america
s-wealthiest-get-600-billion-tax-breaks-rep/

$600 billion in tax breaks is a much bigger deal than $695 fee for not having health insurance in 2016 & 2017.
www.healthcare.gov/fees/fee-for-not-being-covered/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 10:08 AM

6STRINGJOKER

Either way, it was bad news. I didn't agree with it. It was doing as much to fix the actual problem as the ACA itself did, which is nothing.

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 10:22 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two

Quote:
Originally posted by 6STRINGJOKER:
Either way, it was bad news. I didn't agree with it. It was doing as much to fix the actual problem as the ACA itself did, which is nothing.

There is a list of things that could be done to improve Obamacare, without repealing it. Nothing on the list will be done because everything on the list costs money and money makes the world go around.
https://qz.com/941364

The real justification for Trumpcare is tax cuts. There can't be tax cuts if federal government spends more money on health care, leaving us where we started, except Trump already signed an executive order to sabotage Obamacare before repealing it.
www.csmonitor.com/Business/Saving-Money/2017/0125/What-Trump-s-executi
ve-order-on-Obamacare-repeal-means-for-your-health-care-coverage

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, March 25, 2017 10:35 AM