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US loses EU over Ukraine: Hollande says NYET! to Obama, Cyprus offers Russia a military base

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Sunday, March 8, 2015 23:35
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Monday, February 9, 2015 12:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Steinmeier reiterates what Merkel said, UK Defense Ministry says arms to Ukraine a very bad idea, and now Merkel goes to plead with her boss (Obama)

Quote:

Following yesterday's summary of the utter farce that the Minsk Summit/Ukraine "peace" deal talks have become, the various parties involved appear to be fracturing even faster today. The headlines are coming thick and fast but most prescient appears to be: Despite John Kerry's denial of any split between Germany and US over arms deliveries to Ukraine, German Foreign Minister Steinmeier slammed Washington's strategy for being "not just risky but counterproductive."

But perhaps most significantly is France's continued apparent pivot towards Russia... Following Francois Hollande's calls for greater autonomy for Eastern Ukraine, former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has come out in apparent support of Russia (and specifically against the US), "we are part of a common civilization with Russia,” adding, "the interests of the Americans with the Russians are not the interests of Europe and Russia."

Even NATO appears to have given up hope of peace as Stoltenberg's statements show little optimism and the decision by Cyprus to allow Russia to use its soil for military facilities suggests all is not at all well in the European 'union'.

Quote:

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier doubled down on Germany's rejection of weapons deliveries to Ukraine in a speech here Sunday...

*GABRIEL SAYS GERMAN SPD WOULD NEVER BACK ARMS TO UKRAINE

*EUROPE SEES U.S. ARMS DELIVERIES TO UKRAINE AS BAD IDEA: LAVROV
"I see this, to say it openly, as not just for risky but for counter-productive," Mr. Steinmeier said at the Munich Security Conference. Mr. Steinmeier also hit back at open criticism of Germany's position on weapons deliveries from U.S. Senators and others here on Saturday. The White House is mulling delivering weapons to Ukraine to support the country's fight against pro-Russia separatists in the country's east.

"Perhaps we are so insistent because we know the region a bit," Mr. Steinmeier said.



But John Kerry says, everything's fine... as he denies any split between U.S. and Europe on Russia policy...

Quote:

Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday denied any divisions between the U.S. and Europe over how to handle Russia, as Germany announced another high-level summit aimed at stemming the crisis in Ukraine.

Kerry told a security conference in Munich that he wanted to "assure everybody there is no division, there is no split" between Washington and its European allies amid the crisis in Ukraine.

"We are united, we are working closely together," he told the conference following meetings with his French and German counterparts. "We all agree that this challenge will not end through military force. We are united in our diplomacy."



But perhaps most significantly is France's continued apparent pivot towards Russia... Following Francois Hollande's calls for greater autonomy for Eastern Ukraine, former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has come out in apparent support of Russia (and specifically against the US).

Quote:

“We are part of a common civilization with Russia,” said Sarkozy, speaking on Saturday at the congress of the Union for a Popular Movement Party (UMP), which the former president heads.

“The interests of the Americans with the Russians are not the interests of Europe and Russia,” he said adding that “we do not want the revival of a Cold War between Europe and Russia.”

“Crimea has chosen Russia, and we cannot blame it [for doing so],” he said pointing out that “we must find the means to create a peacekeeping force to protect Russian speakers in Ukraine.”



And then Cyprus joins the fracture party, offering to sign a military cooperation agreement on Feb 25th offering Russia the use of military facilities on its soil...

Quote:

The air force base at which Russian planes will use is about 40 kilometers from Britain's sovereign Air Force base at Akrotiri, on the south shores of Cyprus, which provides support to NATO operations in the Middle and Near East regions


Even NATO appears to know the "peace deal" is not coming...

Quote:

STOLTENBERG: 'IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY' IF MINSK PRODUCES CEASE-FIRE


But there is still hope.. as Germany's Vice-Chanceller hopes...

Quote:

*GERMANY'S GABRIEL `CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC' ABOUT MINSK SUMMIT

demands... *PUTIN MUST TAKE EU'S `OUTSTRETCHED HAND,' GABRIEL SAYS

But adds...*EU SEEKS POST-CRISIS PARTNERSHIP RENEWAL WITH RUSSIA: GABRIEL



We will know soon...

Quote:

*RUSSIA SAYS FEB. 9-10 UKRAINE MEETINGS TO PREPARE MINSK SUMMIT


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-02-08/europe-fractures-france-pivot
s-putin-cyprus-offers-moscow-military-base-germany-us-s




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Wednesday, February 11, 2015 1:03 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Germany (Steinmeier) threatens to sanction KIEV if they don't find a peace deal.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:17 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Pro-Russian media spread invented story about Germany preparing sanctions against Kiev:

http://www.interpretermag.com/johnsons-russia-list-spreads-invented-st
ory-about-germany-preparing-sanctions-against-ukraine
/

Quote:

At this point, it becomes clear that there is something wrong with the report, which is a faithful translation of the Ruposters original.

Andrii Olefirov is, as these recent Ukrainian government statements indicate, the Ukrainian ambassador to Finland, not the deputy foreign minister.

He was, however the deputy foreign minister earlier, before he was assigned his ambassadorial post in October last year.

Two reports, one from RIA Novosti’s German-language service (now rebranded as Sputnik) and another, in Russian, from TASS, appear to show the true story.

Both these reports bear a close resemblance to the paragraphs quoted above, but they date from February 4, 2014, when Olefirov was indeed the deputy foreign minister, in the government of Viktor Yanukovych.

What Steinmeier is referring to here then, is the possibility of sanctions against the Yanukovych regime, which was, at that time, brutally cracking down on the EuroMaidan protests.

...

This piece appears therefore to be a carefully constructed assembly of part-truths and inventions designed to mislead readers. The entire article falls apart under the most basic scrutiny...



Another example of the Kremlin's 'war on information'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 9:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well!

Harrumph!!!

The nerve!

*taps foot*

That explains why I couldn't second source that article. (I always try to go to another website with another source to verify. I actually went to ARD and tried a search on Steinmeier, but my German is about 40 years old and wasn't very good to begin with, so I was excellent at finding thing like "these German (something) war (something) Kiev (something)" ... not very helpful.

What references I came up with was indeed from previous years. So I sat on the article for a couple of days, waiting for it to be either retracted or amplified, and when it was expanded on I assumed it was vetted.

My bad!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, February 15, 2015 11:04 PM

REAVERFAN


Looks like Russia has their version of Fox, too.

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Monday, February 16, 2015 12:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



"former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has come out in apparent support of Russia ..."
This is true, with extended quotes here:
http://www.theautomaticearth.com/2015/02/behind-the-global-game-of-thr
ones
/

"not just risky but counterproductive. ... Perhaps we are so insistent because we know the region a bit," Mr. Steinmeier said.
I couldn't independently source the first part of the quote, but the intent was verified and the second part of the quote was sourced elsewhere:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-talks-to-continue-in-minsk-on-wedn
esday-1423389379?tesla=y


The section about Kerry came from NBC news.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/kerry-insists-there-no
-split-europe-russia-ukraine-n302351


The quote from Sarkozy is part of an extended quote referenced above.

The item about Cyprus offering Russia use of its military facilities was found many places, first on the page was Chinese news.
http://www.china.org.cn/world/Off_the_Wire/2015-02/07/content_34758866
.htm


The item about Stoltenberg is too short to search, but it echoes his heavily caveated sentiments about prospects for a ceasefire expressed elsewhere.
http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2015/02/06/ap-interview-nato
-head-says-ukraine-ceasefire-top-priority

/news/world/articles/2015/02/06/ap-interview-nato-head-says-ukraine-ceasefire-top-priority+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/12/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0LG
0FX20150212


I don't find references with quotes about 'GERMANY'S GABRIEL `CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC' ABOUT MINSK SUMMIT ' but there are many references to 'cautious optimism' including in Germany.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/12/europe/ukraine-conflict/

But as I was looking for the other items I got derailed by news that never made it into western media:
Further sanctions will destabilise Russia: Germany
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/germany-russia.zcq
Merkel and Gabriel offer Russia free-trade agreement
http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/germany-russia.zcq

Anyway, this item is a mix of things I could find quoted elsewhere, and things that were congruent with what I could find elsewhere, with the exception of one phrase.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 1:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


NOTE TO SELF: THE HEAD OF THE EU COMMISSION PROPOSES A EUROPEAN ARMY THAT IS NOT NATO


Commission chief Juncker calls for EU army
Quote:

08 March 2015, 16:08 CET
— filed under: Commission, Defence

(BERLIN) - European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker on Sunday called for the creation of an EU army in the wake of rising tensions with Russia.

Juncker said the force could help counter new threats beyond the bloc's borders and defend European "values", in an interview with Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

"You would not create a European army to use it immediately," he was quoted as saying.

"But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union."

He said a joint EU force would also lead to more efficient spending on military equipment and drive further integration of the bloc's 28 member states.

"Such an army would help us design a common foreign and security policy," the former Luxembourg prime minister said, but added that the force should not challenge NATO's defence role.

"Europe's image has suffered dramatically and also in terms of foreign policy, we don't seem to be taken entirely seriously."

The proposal is likely to rile opponents of deeper EU integration such as Britain but won some support from Germany.

Welt am Sonntag quoted the head of the German parliament's foreign policy committee, Norbert Roettgen, as saying that an EU army "is a European vision whose time has come".

Germany's Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen said in a statement that "our future as Europeans will one day be a European army" although she added "not in the short term".

She said such a move would "strengthen Europe's security" and "strengthen a European pillar in the transatlantic alliance".

The newspaper said that former NATO secretary general Javier Solana would present a report on Monday in Brussels entitled "More Union in European Defence" calling for a new European security strategy including military capability to intervene beyond EU borders.


http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/military-ukraine.104r



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 3:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
NOTE TO SELF: THE HEAD OF THE EU COMMISSION PROPOSES A EUROPEAN ARMY THAT IS NOT NATO


Commission chief Juncker calls for EU army
Quote:

08 March 2015, 16:08 CET
— filed under: Commission, Defence

(BERLIN) - European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker on Sunday called for the creation of an EU army in the wake of rising tensions with Russia.

Juncker said the force could help counter new threats beyond the bloc's borders and defend European "values", in an interview with Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

"You would not create a European army to use it immediately," he was quoted as saying.

"But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union."

He said a joint EU force would also lead to more efficient spending on military equipment and drive further integration of the bloc's 28 member states.

"Such an army would help us design a common foreign and security policy," the former Luxembourg prime minister said, but added that the force should not challenge NATO's defence role.

"Europe's image has suffered dramatically and also in terms of foreign policy, we don't seem to be taken entirely seriously."

The proposal is likely to rile opponents of deeper EU integration such as Britain but won some support from Germany.

Welt am Sonntag quoted the head of the German parliament's foreign policy committee, Norbert Roettgen, as saying that an EU army "is a European vision whose time has come".

Germany's Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen said in a statement that "our future as Europeans will one day be a European army" although she added "not in the short term".

She said such a move would "strengthen Europe's security" and "strengthen a European pillar in the transatlantic alliance".

The newspaper said that former NATO secretary general Javier Solana would present a report on Monday in Brussels entitled "More Union in European Defence" calling for a new European security strategy including military capability to intervene beyond EU borders.


http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/military-ukraine.104r


So they want to control the US military via UN, and also have their own Army not under UN control. How interesting.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 3:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


THOSE RUSSIAN LOVERS! HOW DARE THE EU!

Controlling the use of military force via the UN! WHAT AN ABSURDITY! And countries voluntarily gathering together (and excluding others) for mutual military coordination. WHAT A PERVERSE IDEA!




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 5:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


An EU army is an interesting idea. It would mean that in future countries that joined the EU would not necessarily have to join NATO to guarantee their security from Russian aggression. This would be good for countries that want to be in the EU, but wish to stay neutral in the NATO v Russia rivalry, e.g. countries like Finland.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 7:12 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oh, I wanted to point out that NATO no longer considers itself under UN control. That went away with Kosovo. NATO engages in military action on its own behalf (though how it arrives at that decision is quite a secret), and will CONSIDER military action under UN auspices, but doesn't consider itself obligated.

As a result of that decision, NATO can, and has, engaged in offensive (in every sense of the word) military action for partisan political ends.

NATO should no longer be considered a UN (or any other) peacekeeping force, and hasn't been for two decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's (NATO) military operation against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia during the Kosovo War. The operation was not authorised by the United Nations and was the first time that NATO used military force without the approval of the UN Security Council and against a sovereign nation that did not pose a threat to members of the alliance.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 9:28 PM

THGRRI





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Sunday, March 8, 2015 10:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, it's an interesting proposition with perhaps unintended consequences.

It would eliminate the various national armies. Polish army? French army? phhhhtttt!

I would imagine, then, that the joint army would only take orders from a unified command structure. That means that individual "national army" actions (such as sending troops or weapons to Kiev) would be forbidden unless authorized by the EU version of Centcom.

What would the decision-making process look like? Would it require a consensus (100% agreement)? In that case, nothing would ever be decided. Would it require a majority vote? A super-majority? Who would the commander report to? The EU Commission?



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 10:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


How NATO seems to do it is like a bake sale looking for volunteers. It looks like the members decide if they want to participate in a NATO-initiated action. Then the country with the itch decides if there's enough resources to go forward. Tho it's hard to say because though I spent quite a while trying to find out its command structure, and who that command structure talks to, it seems to be a secret.

As you started discussing the joint army, it started to look like the euro group. A supra-national organization that doesn't answer to its members.

The resources, strategies, tactics etc - I'll think about it but I think that's the easy part. Deciding what to do when ... that would be trickier. FOR EXAMPLE - what if a member of this group had skirmishes on its borders. And this group decided that that was a threat to mutual security. So they decided to launch a military defense. Now the country on whose soil this little war would be fought - could kiss its economy goodbye. It would be sacrificed for mutual security (at best - it's also possible that this could be an aggressive war for political ends). But, the sacrificial country might not be too happy with that prospect.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, March 8, 2015 11:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Or, what happens if members decide to fight each other?

I thought for a rather long time about the statement by Juncker .... “But a common army among the Europeans would convey to Russia that we are serious about defending the values of the European Union.” It would help them be “taken entirely seriously”.

So what ARE the values of the EU? Are they the same as NATO? It appears not, otherwise Juncker wouldn't have proposed a EU military force to begin with.

I can't imagine it happening though. Neither the UK nor France would allow it.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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