REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Obama: We brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, February 9, 2015 16:45
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Sunday, February 1, 2015 8:23 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html


Really?? Who did they bargain with? What did they offer? What kind of deals were struck?

And does anyone still believe that the USA wasn't involved in the Ukraine coup?

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Sunday, February 1, 2015 8:51 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, February 2, 2015 12:15 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I noticed that the usual suspects are missing from this conversation: THUGR, G, KPO, MAL4, and (lately) GEEZER, who all like to believe that this was just a spontaneous cry from all Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (corrupt but elected) government.

The USA clearly had plans to make this go forward, and one of the critical points where I think the USA was involved was in the sniper-fire on the Maidan. And I'll bet if we could look into it (which of course we can't) that we would also find USA financial support and political cover for the nazis who formed the "shock troops" of the Maidan.

Color revolutions, such grand things! [/irony]

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, February 2, 2015 12:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their elected (true) Russian puppet (false) government."


Well, the election was observed by international observers who gave it THUMBS UP! I know I've posted the Guardian article on that 3 or 4 times so I'm not going to post it yet again.

But you and your ilk have posted this lie more than once, it's been refuted more than once, and yet - you just can't stop yourself from lying, can you?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, February 2, 2015 1:20 PM

JONGSSTRAW




Sniggy The Piggy: "I shouldn't have eaten all those corn cobs this morning."

Kiki The Old Sow: "I told you to go easy, but you never listen."

Sniggy The Piggy: "Ugh! I feel so gassy, like I'm gonna explode."

Kiki The Old Sow: "Okay with me. Your farts smell divine."

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Monday, February 2, 2015 1:31 PM

THGRRI


Putin is the first best reason for Ukrainians to strike a deal with the West.


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Monday, February 2, 2015 2:11 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, February 2, 2015 11:23 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
No surprise, given that Nuland's 'fuck the EU' conversation in which she discussed who should be in the next government happened sometime before Feb 6 2014, and Yanukovich wasn't deposed until Feb 14 2014. Either she was psychic or she was in on the plans.




Nice to see you're recycling, at least.




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 12:48 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It's an incontrovertible fact, and it informs the topic.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 5:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


Sniggy The Piggy: "I shouldn't have eaten all those corn cobs this morning."

Kiki The Old Sow: "I told you to go easy, but you never listen."

Sniggy The Piggy: "Ugh! I feel so gassy, like I'm gonna explode."

Kiki The Old Sow: "Okay with me. Your farts smell divine."



*SNORT!* Love these 2 - you need to start a web site, sell t-shirts, etc. It'd be huge.



A nice informative bio of Siggy and 1kiki would be helpful to explain and put into context why these are so funny.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One of the things that I thought was interesting is the other part of what Victoria Nuland said ... that the USA spent $5B in Ukraine since it achieved its independence in 1991.

Hmmm... $5B ... but over about 25 years. I dunno, doesn't seem like much, what might $5B buy?

Well, assuming that the USA spent equal amounts over 23 years, that's about $220M a year. If half of that went to buy off... er, I mean support ... various oligarchs and security groups, that would leave something like $110M for "the masses". Heck, you could have paid every person on the Maidan something like $1000 - which is a lot of money in the Ukraine!- and they could have stopped working and shut down their businesses for a few months on that money (How DID they manage to support themselves during the long-term demonstration, anyway?) and you would still have a few million left for coffee and donuts and posters and flags.


Yep, that $5B could have paid for a lot of people.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 2:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Imagine if the US had kept all the trillions spent in Iraq and Afghanistan! Yeah, it's mind boggling - we could all retire 10 times over.


You say that like it's a bad thing.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:18 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, I noticed that the usual suspects are missing from this conversation: THUGR, G, KPO, MAL4, and (lately) GEEZER, who all like to believe that this was just a spontaneous cry from all Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (corrupt but elected) government.




So what exactly is the sig troll's source for his/her/its brilliant insight in this thread? The source he/she/it trusts more than any other possible source in the whole wide world? Expand on this reference of yours, please sig. Do share its full background and those who created and support it. In full detail please. Leave nothing out.

Other posters: note that in this thread he/she/it right away relied on the bored indifference of actual discerning, intelligent people (like me) who long ago dismissed her as naught but a troll, as if getting us to blow off her babbling nonsense added up to support of her insanity.

The kiki-sock tried to manage the same by attempting to sell me as mentally deficient--get this--because I find screaming children annoying. Really? Any follow up on that Sig/Kik troll? Please. Try it again. Try to dismiss me--on topic. Give it a go honey.

Siggy.*sigh* Just like Rap, all you do is illustrate the madness of your way of [that thing that other people call thinking but for you... it's not so much...] *thinking*.

This is fun. Let's do it some more.


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


GeeWhiz

I hear it like it's a good thing. I'd be all for it. Cut the military. Bring all our troops home, and dismantle our overseas bases. Reduce our fleets. Stop funding offensive weapons systems. Just because we threw away trillions before doesn't mean we have to keep doing it now. It's not too late to stop repeating the same mistakes.

Would you be for that?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2015 10:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So anyway, back to the topic.

I think the fact that Nuland was talking about replacement government before the old one was deposed in a coup indicates US involvement. I think it's a significant piece of information. Anyone interested in discussion?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2015 11:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


No, nobody want to know how Obama wound up picking the PM (who has persisted in unelected position ever since the coup) well before Yanukovich ever fled the capital. That would be an admission that the USA was propelling this thing along, even AFTER a negotiated settlement had been reached on Feb 21. (Feb 22 was the day of the coup)

I just got a transcript of the entire conversation between Ashton and Paet, where Paet lays the blame of the Maidan snipings on someone other than Yanukovich. Unfortunately, the person (or machine) who transcribed the conversation didn't think to label with who was saying what, so once I add that info, I'll post it here.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2015 10:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So it WASN'T a spontaneous expression of Ukrainians yearning for i-pods and lattes. I mean, freedom.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Thursday, February 5, 2015 5:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I listened to the recording of the leaked conversation (didn't you?) when it first came out, and since the transcript follows the rough outline of the conversation, along with key points and unusual phrases I'm not worried about the provenance.

Also, it's a very different thing to say that you were "involved in" Ukraine versus saying that you "brokered a deal to transition power" ... the second sentence does put the USA in the position of determining who would take power in Ukraine after Yanukovich was driven from office, which is exactly what happened: "Our guy" became PM and in fact "our guy" is STILL PM.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, February 5, 2015 11:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I noticed I missed this:



Well, the election was observed by in international observers who gave it THUMBS UP. I know I've posted the Guardian article on that 3 or 4 times so I'm not going to post it yet again.
But you and you ilk have posted this lie more than once, it's been refuted more than once, and yet - you just can't stop yourself from lying, can you?



What lie exactly? Seriously, I want to see if you know what that word actually means.



The lie that a valid democratic election should be thought of as "democratic", as if Yanukovich was president without actual popular support, a lie that you repeated yet again. And you use that lie to pretend it was OK to have a coup against a democratically elected President, be cause, yanno, it was only "democratic".



..."this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (elected Russian puppet) government."


So, yes I'm quite familiar with what the term "lie" means, if for no other reason than you present so many fine examples. What I'm curious about is if you're acquainted at all with the concept of "truth", as in, "correspondence to reality".




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:19 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html



It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters, killing dozens of them. And then the next day, suddenly, Yanukovich's security services stop answering to him, and pull back from their positions, allowing Maidan protesters to occupy public buildings. Yanukovich flees, and his own party votes to remove him from office.

Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt, murdering president was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections. That to me sounds like brokering well done.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 11:47 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Obama: "...we brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/obama-theres-no-formula
-in-which-this-ends-up-being-good-for-russia-video-379148.html

-SIGNY
It's an interesting admission. I hadn't really thought about it before, but someone behind the scenes does deserve great credit for the way Yanukovich left power. The way that Yanukovich lost power surprised everyone - with its suddenness, and cleanness and peacefulness. One day Yanukovich is ordering his security services to fire on unarmed protesters

Yet another unproven allegation, and probably wrong. Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)

Quote:

In April, prosecutors arrested three suspects, members of an elite unit within the “Berkut” riot police. Senior among them was Dmytro Sadovnyk, 38, a decorated commander, who was accused of ordering his men to fire on the crowds on the morning of Feb. 20. The three stand accused of massacring 39 unarmed protesters.

... A Reuters examination of Ukraine's probes into the Maidan shootings - based on interviews with prosecutors, defence attorneys, protesters, police officers and legal experts – has uncovered serious flaws in the case against Sadovnyk and the other two Berkut officers.

Among the evidence presented against Sadovnyk was a photograph. Prosecutors say it shows him near Kiev’s Independence Square on Feb. 20, wearing a mask and holding a rifle with two hands, his fingers clearly visible.

The problem: Sadovnyk doesn’t have two hands. His right hand, his wife told Reuters, was blown off by a grenade in a training accident six years ago. As prosecutors introduced the image at a hearing in April, said Yuliya Sadovnyk, her husband removed a glove and displayed his stump to the courtroom.


There are other flaws with the prosecution case, please read the article
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/10/us-ukraine-killings-probe-sp
ecial-report-idUSKCN0HZ0UH20141010



Quote:

Powerful people turned against Yanukovich, and undermined his power. A corrupt
yes

Quote:

murdering
probably not

Quote:

democratically elected president
I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part
Quote:

was ousted and within months the country had free and fair democratic elections.
Just like the PREVIOUS election, only not as democratic, because your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders of a violent coup.

Quote:

That to me sounds like brokering well done.
Well, that's the USA and Britain's "exceptionalism" all wrapped up in one sentence: "We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons, and then we get to pat ourselves on the back for a "job well done". No wonder you're hated by so many around the world.

Quote:

It's not personal. It's just war.
Be careful what you wish for.
--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 11:56 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MRG
Quote:

I think you meant "not democratic" whatever...
WHAT does it take to have a democratic vote?

You and KPO seem to be extremely confused about the topic.

So, why don't you explain to us why one election -the one that elected Yanukovich- was not "democratic" while the one that "elected" Poroshenko (the one that excluded a significant minority of Ukrainians) is seen as democratic? What flaws were present in the first election that were remedied by the second?

Be specific.




--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 12:12 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Here is the transcript. The comments in [] aren't mine, but the underlines are.

Quote:

buzz
buzz
hello
good afternoon madame.
this is again the center action service …
should we go, do you think it is going to be possible straight away?
to connect Mr. Katz … yes sir.
so please go on, I’m connecting with the Lady Ashton cabinet.
yes thank you.
you’re welcome.
buzz
yes hello this is Mian speaking.
yes it is for the conference with the Estonian foreign minister, they are online.
hello.
yes hello can you put me through please?
yes i’ll connect you to Mr. Katz, one moment.
thank you.
hello minister.
hello.
hi I’ll put you through, thank you very much.
thank you.
buzz
hello.
buzz
hello.
hello.
hello how are you?
I am fine.
good. I’m good.
and you?

Ashton - good. I just wanted to catch up with you on what you thought when you were there.

Paet - yes, I returned last night already, so that I was one day.

Ashton - yes. Impressions?

Paet- Impressions are sad. I met with representatives of Regions Party [the Party of the just-ousted President Yanukovych], also new coalition representatives, and also civilian society, there is this lady called Olga, who is head of the doctors, yes, you know her.

Ashton yes, I do,

Paet - so that yes, whew, my impression in this is sad, that there is, well, no trust, that there was the sense that there was those politicians who will return now to the coalition, well, people from Maidan [the anti-Yanukovych demonstrators] and from civilian society [non-governmental leaders in Ukraine], they say they know everybody who will be in your [whatever the Maidaners install as constituting the new] government, and all these guys have dirty past [i.e., even the Maidan leaders know that everyone who stands even a chance to be installed into the new government has a “dirty past”]

Ashton -yes,

Paet - So that they, well, they made some proposals to this same Olga and to others from civilian society, that they join new government, but this Olga, for example, says directly that she’s ready to go [in]to the government only in the case if she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms, so that, oh, basically that the trust level is absolutely low; on the other hand all the security problems, the (inaudible) problems, Crimea, all this stuff, Regions Party was absolutely upset, they say that well they accept this now, that there will be new government and there will be external [for-Yanukovych’s-replacement] elections, but there is enormous pressure against the members of parliament [from his Regions Party], that there are uninvited visitors [Ukrainian nazis] during the night, to [Regions] Party members, well, journalists, some journalists who were with me, they saw during the day that one member of parliament was just beaten in front of the parliament building, by these guys with the guns on the streets [the highly organized Ukrainian nazis, beating those Parliamentarians, to terrorize them into not resisting the coup],

Ashton - yeah,


Paet -so that all these messages is still there, and of course this Olga and others from civilian society, they were absolutely sure that people will not leave the streets before they see that the real reforms will start, so that it is not enough that there is just change of government. [He now changes totally to what the EU’s and his own country’s leaders care the most about, which isn’t at all “she can take with her her team, call in experts to start real healthcare reforms,” but instead:] There is the main impression, so that from EU’s and from Estonia’s perspective of course, they should be ready to put this financial package together [for their aristocrats’ Ukrainian bondholders], also together with others, this very clear message is needed that it’s not enough that there is a change of government, that the same real reforms, re. an election, to increase the level of trust [is needed], otherwise it will end badly [those loans won’t be repaid]. Because the Regions Party [the people now afraid] also said that then you will see that if the people from the eastern part of Ukraine [which they represent] will really wake up, and start to demand their rights [as the Maidaners in the west had been demanding theirs], some people with me were in Donetsk [in the east] their people said, well we can’t wait, how long still the occupation of [by] Ukraine lasts in Donetsk [i.e., they were already so alienated by rule from the west so that, even under Yanukovych, they considered it to be “occupation”], that it is real Russian ship city and we’d like now to see that Russia will take over [and any such breakaway would remove from Ukraine assets that otherwise could be available to pay back EU loans]. So that those are [my] short impressions.

Ashton -Now very very interesting. I’ve just had a big meeting here with Olli Rehn and the other [EU] commissioners. We are working on financial packages, short, medium, long term, everything from how we get money in quickly, to how we can support the IMF [guarantor of international loans], and how we can get the kind of investment packages and business leaders, and so on. On the political side, we’ve worked out resources we’ve got and I offered to civil society and to Yatsenyuk [the banker whom Obama’s agent was now actually choosing to run the country] and Klitchko and everybody I met yesterday, we can offer you people who know how to do political and economic reform [i.e., to make whole the bond-bets of Europe’s aristocracy]. the countries that are closest to Ukraine have themselves been through dramatic changes, and have done big political and economic reform, so we’ve got loads of experience to give you, which we have to give. I said to the people in Maidan, yes, you want real reform, but you’ve got to get through the short term first, so you need to find ways in which you can establish a process that will have anti-corruption at its heart [this need reflecting the interests of both Europe’s aristocrats who have loaned money to Ukraine, plus of the Ukrainian public, so that Ukrainians won’t continue to be robbed blind by Ukraine’s own oligarchs — benefiting both the EU’s aristocracies plus the Ukrainian public], that will have people working alongside until the elections, and that you can be confident in the process. I said to Olga, you may not be health minister now, but you need to think about becoming health minister in the future, because people like you are going to be needed to be able to get to make sure that things will happen. But I also said to them, if you simply barricade the buildings now, and the government doesn’t function, we can’t get money in, because we need a partner to partner with [in order to get those European loans paid back]; and I said to the opposition leaders, shortly to become government, you need to reach out to Maidan, you need to be, you know, engaging with them; you also need to get ordinary people back on the streets under a new sense of their role, so that people feel safe. I said to the Party of Regions [Yanukovych’s] people, you have to go and lay flowers where the people died, you have to show that you understand what has happened here, because what you are experiencing was anger, of people who have seen the way that Yanukovych lived and the corruption, and they [Ukrainians] assume you’re all the same; and those are the people who’ve lost people, and who feel that he [Yanukovych] ordered that to happen; there’s quite a lot of shock, I think, in the city, a lot of sadness and shock, and that’s going to come out in some very strange ways if we’re not careful. I think all of this we’re going to have to work on. We’ve done a big meeting here today, to try to get this in place. But yes, it’s very interesting, your observations. [Ashton is expressing the general impression given to the west that Yanukovich was responsible for the Maidan sniping, and that many Ukrainians believe that]

Paet - It is, and actually the only politician the people from civilian society mentioned positively was Poroshenko [who was soon to become the ultimate winner in the May 25th Presidential “election,” which was held only in Ukraine’s northwest, because by then the regime’s massacres of people in the southeast had already begun and so the residents there knew that they didn’t want to be ruled any longer from Kiev], so that he had some so to say trust among all these Maidan people and civilian society; and [NOW COMES THE BOMBSHELL] second, what was quite disturbing, the same oligarch [Poroshenko — and so when he became President he already knew this] told that well, all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers, from both sides, among policemen and people from the streets, [this will shock Ashton, who had just said that Yanukovych had masterminded the killings] that they were the same snipers, killing people from both sides [so, Poroshenko himself knows that his regime is based on a false-flag U.S.-controlled coup d’etat against his predecessor]

Aston- Well, that’s yes, …

Paet - So that and then she [Dr. Olga Bolgomets] also showed me some photos, she said that as medical doctor, she can, you know, say that it’s the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition that they don’t want to investigate, what exactly happened; so that now there is stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition. [Notice here that Paet had tactfully avoided saying that Ashton’s assumption that it had been Yanukovych was false; instead, he totally ignored her having said that, and he here simply said that the evidence went totally the opposite direction, the direction that Poroshenko himself knew to be true.]

Ashton - I think that we do want to investigate. [That sentiment on her part lasted about one second.] I mean I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh? [Ashton here seemed to have felt embarrassed, and she thus ended in a “Gosh” that was almost inaudible, as if a question, and then she proceeded simply to ignore this crucial matter entirely. All of the evidence suggests that she was exceedingly reluctant to believe that the bad guys here had actually been on the anti-Yanukovych side. She didn’t want to believe that, perhaps because her supreme priority was getting Europe’s loans paid back.]

Paet - So that it was in this instance disturbing that if it’s us now to live its own life very powerfully, then it already discreditates from the very beginning also this new coalition.

Ashton -[At this point, Ashton noticeably jerks the topic back to the needs of her own sponsors, Europe’s lenders to Ukraine, who want to be paid back; and she suddenly sours on Olga, as being “not a politician.”] I mean this is what we’ve got to be very careful of as well, that they need to demand great change, but they’ve got to let the Rada [Parliament] function. If the Rada doesn’t function, then we’ll have complete chaos. [Ashton clearly wants now to sweep those bullets and blood under the rug.] So, being an activist and a doctor is very important, but it means you’re not a politician, and somehow they’ve got to come to a kind of accommodation for the next few weeks, as to how the country’s actually going to run, and then we get the elections and things can change. And that’s, I think, going to be quite pop[ular]. I’m planning to go back early next week, hoping on Monday [and the end of the conversation discusses the big EU names who will be coming to Ukraine the next week].



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 1:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


GeeWhiz

Right here, where I helpfully quoted it for you:

"...this was just a spontaneous cry from the Ukrainians, who wanted to be free of their (elected Russian puppet) government."

The Yanukovich government was freely elected, in an internationally monitored, legitimate, and democratic election, and Yanukovich was not there simply at the will of Russia to be a puppet. Your parens around 'elected Russian puppet' means you really don't think it was a yanno - real election, nor a real national government.

Did you SAY exactly "it was OK to have a coup because it wasn't a real independent government"? No, you did not. Did you imply it, have you been implying it, and do you mean it? Yes, you do.

Are you Geezer, resorting to weak rhetorical squirms to claim you don't actually post what you post? Yes, you are.

Are you totally devoid of honor? Yes, you are.






SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 2:00 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)

I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically. No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html


Quote:

Quote:
democratically elected president
I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part


Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.

Quote:

your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders

The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy. There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.

Quote:

"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons

Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters. And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the proof of the pudding is in the free and fair democratic elections that took place just a few months later - where Ukrainians CHOSE THEIR OWN president. If that's meddling, that's very constructive meddling.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 2:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Did I say the Poroshenko vote was democratic? No? Were you wrong, lying or stupid?


So basically you're saying that the Yanukovich election was also undemocratic (as was Poroshenko's). A pox on both their houses, correct?

If that's what you're saying, please explain how both elections were non-democratic.

Be specific.

"Compare and contrast" would be nice, as well as reference to internationally-accepted norms for election operations.

--------------
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Friday, February 6, 2015 2:22 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

One doesn't have to read any further than, "so basically you're saying that..." to know how full of bias and negative spin what follows will be. Tragically dim.
Too bad you didn't get to the end of the sentence where I asked "correct"?

I DID ask for correction if my interpretation was correct or not. Without your clarification, how can I understand what you're saying?

As far as I can tell, the situation is that I'm seeking clarification and you're refusing to explain your detailed viewpoint on the flaws of both elections, about which you've been obdurately obscure.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 2:24 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Yanu was a Russian puppet, there to do Putin's bidding."

So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?

And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?

Are those your excuses to legitimize a coup?





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:02 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

So he WASN'T freely, democratically and legitimately elected by the Ukrainian people?

As I told Sig, being democratically elected does not forgive all the crimes Yanuk committed. Nor does it mean the people don't have the right to rise up against him.

Quote:

And he DIDN'T have 50% popular support at the time of the coup?

Ha!

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:05 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"He was the Russian Puppet that won the election."

He was the legitimate elected leader - right?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, MRG are you saying that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet?

yes or no.

If yes, provide evidence.



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:22 PM

JONGSSTRAW






Kiki The Old Sow: "I read that Putin is trying to corner the hog futures market."

Sniggy The Piggy: "I seriously doubt that. Besides, how could he do it?"

Kiki The Old Sow: "RT said he's going to kill all the capitalist pigs in Ukraine and Poland."

Sniggy The Piggy: "So that'll leave just us commie pigs, right?"

Kiki The Old Sow: "That's what they're saying!"

Sniggy The Piggy: "I so love our little chats dear comrade."

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).


Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


G Not at all.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).


Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.


And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.














Locals say the man was killed by an air strike from Ukrainian forces in Luhansk Oblast’s Stanytsya Luhanska.


Ukrainian bombing of a residence suburb in Donetsk. Family inside killed by the shelling


















SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).


Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 3:46 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, MRG are you saying that Yanukovich was a Russian puppet?

yes or no.

If yes, provide evidence.



So what your saying is KPO totally gutted you 2 and now you have to run and hide. Is that what you're saying?

I replied to KPO in detail. I will reply to his response separately.

What I'm doing now is responding to YOU, and you are hiding behind KPO. Not only are you a nitwit, you don't have the courage of your convictions, nor the facts to back them up (but everybody knows that by now, because you are infamous for your allegations, for which you can't ever seem to provide actual evidence).

So, Yanukovich: Russian puppet or not? And evidence, please.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 4:06 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Kiev's case against the Berkut is widely seen as flawed, as reported by Reuters (you accept Reuters as a source, do you not?)- SIGNY

I said Yanukovich's security services were responsible, not the Berkut specifically.

Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?
Quote:

No, while some of the protesters died by AK-47 fire, probably from the Berkut, many more were killed by expert snipers with different bullets and more accurate weapons. Evidence points to an elite unit known as 'Alfa team', and the SBU (the Ukrainian secret service) - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs
-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html


That makes no sense at all. Why would a Russian-affiliated security agency inflame a situation leading to their "puppet's" immediate downfall, if a peaceful transition of power and early elections had not been agreed to the immediately preceding day? (Feb 21) I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

Quote:

"democratically elected president" I fixed that for you, since you forgot that part- SIGNY

Pro-Russians like to hammer on about Yanuk being democratically elected, as if that forgives him of all his sins. he was democratically elected but thoroughly undemocratic, and the people overwhelmingly turned against him - even his traditional supporters. His party turned against him, voting to remove him from office, but still got roundly trounced at the presidential elections that followed the revolution - receiving 3% of the vote. Such is the stain of Yanukovich - the man is reviled across Ukraine. Pro-Russians who talk about this deposed Russian puppet as if he is some kind of legitimate-leader-in-exile are living in a Russian propagandist's fantasy land.

So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

Quote:

your so-called "free and fair" elections did not include a significant portion of the nation which was unwilling to accept the undemocratically-appointed leaders-SIGNY
The elections did not include a small but significant part of the nation that had been invaded and occupied by a Russian proxy.

Bullshit. Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine. You (and MRG) have this idee fixe stuck in your heads... RUSSIAN INVASION!... which no lack of evidence will ever dislodge. You're as bad about this as RAPPY about Iraq's "WMD". I expect that a decade hence, you will still be obsessing about the "Russian invasion".

Quote:

There's no evidence that 'the people' in rebel-occupied Donbas rejected the Kiev government (and there still isn't). Many in fact would have voted in the elections, but the separatists STOPPED them.
Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

Quote:

"We" have the right to meddle on any nation, to depose elected officials for specious reasons- SIGNY
Not specious reasons - Yanukovich had started murdering unarmed protesters.

Bullshit. Your idee fixe again. What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs? That would be an idea you could not possibly tolerate, and so ... you won't.
Quote:

And yes, there is a degree of paternalism in the US, a mature (although not perfect) democracy helping a young democracy to replace an undemocratic leader and restart the democratic process. You can howl about the USA having a hand in the formation of the interim government, and to some extent you are probably right, but the proof of the pudding is in the free and fair democratic elections that took place just a few months later - where Ukrainians CHOSE THEIR OWN president. If that's meddling, that's very constructive meddling.
Except, of course, the several thousand civilians killed and million displaced.

There WAS a plan in place to replace the Yanukovich government. Early elections were set for not one month hence. All of this bloodshed and violence could have been avoided if TPTB had stuck with that plan. But the Maidan snipings happened the very next day, and the main beneficiaries were the US-backed politicians and the Nazis.

Quote:

It's not personal. It's just war.
Be careful what you wish for.

--------------
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Friday, February 6, 2015 4:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind. He's religious about his facts, and hews to a neo'liberal' sect.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 4:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I think the weight of evidence is that the US and Britain orchestrated a coup in the Ukraine that ousted a legitimate, democratically elected government, in order to install a more economically pliant one (all this happened after Yanukovich refused to sign the political association pact and restrictive free trade agreement with the EU).


Everything else is quibbling over meaningless decoys.

And apparently you both agree since neither of you can refute - or even address - the point.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 6:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Signy

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIK

Seriously???

Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 7:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 7:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.-KIKNo, he's kept that part pretty quiet. I don't think he wants to revisit the issue. Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.


So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

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Friday, February 6, 2015 7:37 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.razumkov.org.ua/eng/poll.php?poll_id=90

Mar 2013
Do you support the activity of Viktor Yanukovych? (recurrent, 2002-2013)
Fully support 14
Support certain actions 26.1
Do not support 56.4
Don`t know such politician 0.5
Difficult to answer 2.9



http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8886/

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_2_engl.JPG

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_3_engl.JPG

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
http://rb.com.ua/EmU_4_engl.JPG



http://www.ukrinform.ua/eng/news/survey_most_ukrainians_to_vote_for_ya
nukovych_in_first_round_311174


Survey: Most Ukrainians to vote for Yanukovych in first round



http://www.dw.de/ukrainian-support-for-eu-association-agreement-declin
es/a-17189085


Ukrainian support for EU association agreement declines Date 29.10.2013




http://www.dw.de/the-pressure-on-yanukovych-increases/a-17257434

The November poll of the Kiev International Institute for Sociology (KMIS), for instance, shows Ukraine as a divided country. According to the recent poll, 39 percent of Ukrainians would vote for EU accession, even if the issue is not yet on the agenda. But nearly as many Ukrainians - 37 percent – support integration with Russia and other former Soviet republics in the form of a customs agreement.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 7:39 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?

The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Quote:

I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?

A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world. There's no mystery here, or conspiracy theory.

Quote:

So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?

At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government, is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.

Quote:

"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - bullshit.

Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?

Quote:

Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.

Oh dear me.

Quote:

What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?

You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.

Quote:

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???

Kiki is unhinged.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 7:57 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests:

http://www.ifes.org/Content/Publications/Press-Release/2013/2013-Publi
c-Opinion-Survey-in-Ukraine.aspx

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/poll-yanukovych-to-lose-to-op
position-candidates-in-second-round-of-presidential-elections-334239.html


Then came the shootings in Kiev, and the discovery of all the grotesque extravagances at Yanukovich's private mansion, which now acts as a museum to his corruption. I'll say again, Ukrainians despise Yanukovich. In the May presidential elections Yanukovich's Party of Regions got 3% of the vote - and after that it DISBANDED. And yet to you, this man is somehow the 'legitimate' president.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 8:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Then why are the Berkut being blamed by the current government?-SIGNY
The Berkut are suspected of some of the shootings, but not most of them - I believe I said that.

Let me rephrase: Then why aren't so-called Russian-affiliated security agents being investigated?

Quote:

I understand that there are a lot of conspiracies behind events, but one of the prime tenets of putting up a conspiracy theory is that you have to show the the conspirators would actually benefit from their own plans. Qui bono? So, how would this help Yanukovich, or Russia?-SIGNY
A huge protest movement trying to unseat an undemocratic leader, and a violent crackdown. It's the same story we've seen played out many times around the world.

Where you will see the USA's hand quite often.

Quote:

So, because people don't like a President, and EARLY ELECTIONS ARE PLANNED for the near future, that means that they have the "right" to violently overthrow the government?-SIGNY
At what point someone has the 'right' to take up arms and try to overthrow a tyrannical government

Yanno, this is just fucking hyperbole. What did Yanukovich do that was so "tyrannical"? Did he jail and torture thousands? Outlaw opposition parties? Set thugs on Parliamentarians? Burn people in buildings? Drone them from the sky?

BE SPECIFIC. Tell me about this "tyrant"!

Quote:

is an interesting ethical question. But in the case of Ukraine, we're not talking about a small band of people staging a coup, we're talking about hundreds of thousands if not millions
Ahem!
Quote:

of ordinary people taking to the street and demanding change. And yes, people have the right to do that, and to refuse to wait for Yanukovich to fix another election.
So, the violence was NOT precipitated by Russian-affiliated security agents (as you suggest) but by "the people"?

Yanno, your stories don't even form a coherent narrative. You can't even make it from one end of a post to another without contradicting yourself. That's what happens when you don't keep an eye on reality!

Quote:

"Even the Commanding General of the Ukraine forces clearly and unequivocally says that there are no Russian troops in Ukraine" - SIGNY
Fixed that for you. And what part of 'proxy' don't you understand?-KPO

So, the Commanding General has no idea what's going on? Seems to me that he's just saying something you don't want to hear.

Quote:

Polls and referenda, plus the rather robust volunteer force of residents tells an opposite story.-SIGNY
Oh dear me.-KPO

I posted several videos of DPR-LPR fighters. There are also many stories (in western press) which discuss who they are. Many of them are coal miners, farmers, drugstore technicians... people from the area. The articles make a point of it. You, OTOH, keep pointing to a "Russian invasion" that conveniently never actually appears.

Quote:

What would you say if it turned out that it really WAS US mercs?-SIGNY
You are right that whoever carried out those shooting is key to this whole debate. But you don't have evidence that the US carried out the shootings, you just have your worldview of the US as 'the great Satan', which is your guiding star.-KPO


Well, we did exactly the same thing in Venezuela.
Quote:

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???-SIGNY
Kiki is unhinged.-KPO

So you won't answer the question.

That's OK, you just answered the question.


Quote:

It's not personal. It's just war.
Be careful what you wish for.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 8:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Among other hilarities, KPO also believes Iraq manufactured and possessed WMDs. You're not dealing with a rational, evidence-based mind.     1Kiki

Seriously???
Wow, I thought KPO was only twisted about Russia!    SIGNY

Ask him yourself. I'm sure he'll be happy to tell you.     1Kiki

So, what about those Iraqi WMD, KPO???    SIGNY

Kiki is unhinged.    KPO



No, I'm not unhinged, it's just that he's a liar.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=58499&p=7

KPO

Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:30 PM

I never said anything about importing them - no, it manufactured them and hid the evidence. However, now that you mention it, I did also hear a theory that Saddam DID import WMD - secretly from the USA back in the 80s; and then when the US captured them in 2003 they covered it up. Personally I don't know if it's true or not, but I'm guessing you can't disprove it...



You see Signy, that's the kind of critter you're dealing with.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 8:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


so anyway krappy

"Kiki, Yanukovich's poll numbers were terrible, and had been for some time even BEFORE the Maidan protests"

But EVERYBODY'S poll numbers were low. It's not like Yanukovych was an exception. In you own post, he was somewhat better than average.



On the question of Euromaidan - since you didn't bother to click on the links

WHETHER UKRAINIANS SUPPORT EUROMAYDAN
Yes in general 45%
No in general 50%
Found it difficult to answer 6%

WHAT CONSEQUENCES WILL EUROMAYDAN HAVE FOR UKRAINE
Positive in total 31%
Negative in total 43%
Will have no effect 17%
Found it difficult to answer 10%

EVALUATION OF AGREEMENTS OF V. YANUKOVICH IN MOSCOW ABOUT PRICE REDUCTION FOR GAS FOR UKRAINE AND CREDIT GRANTING TO UKRAINE OF 15 BILLION DOLLARS
Positive in total 47%
Neutral/ indifferent 19%
Negative in total 27%
Will have no effect 7%
Found it difficult to answer 10%



The totality of the facts (in your own lying way you acknowledge them in the breach) is that Ukraine was divided over association with the EU, deeply distrustful of what Euromaydan would bring, and not at all united in a desire to get rid of Yanukovych or his government (or his agreements).




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 11:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Minis
try-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html



Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders

Leaked phone call suggests anti-government protesters hired the snipers
Call between EU's foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonia's foreign affairs minister Urmas Paet
Paet appears to claim opposition leaders hired the snipers that killed 94

By John Hall

Published: 13:14 EST, 5 March 2014

"(Olga) can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition that -- they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition," Paet told Ashton.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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