REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Greece may reject austerity; does a Grexit follow?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, May 29, 2017 14:56
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Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:56 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The Greek economy has been waterboarded by the troika (European Commission, International Monetary Fund and European Central Bank) for six years now. Having gone foolishly and massively into debt at the urging of Goldman Sachs (which was betting against the very Greek bonds that they birthed), the troika imposed harsh austerity measures in return for rescue loans. But the austerity measures tanked the economy, leading to unemployment and poverty levels unheard-of since the Great Depression, and made Greece even less able to pay back on its loans.

The was done with the approval of Parliament, despite demonstrations and riots in the capital. The government has routinely bent to the will of the troika. Meanwhile, an opposition party - Syriza- has grown from nonexistence to being a political threat. The current troika-friendly Samaras government is in a throw-down with Tsipras (head of Syriza) over whether to accept Samaras' choice of President. If the Parliament doesn't agree to Samaras' choice, new elections must be held - elections which Syriza is likely to win.

Samaras chose this moment for the throw-down because Greece is one "tranche" away from exiting the troika's austerity program. With another round of austerity measures will come the last $7 billion loan, then Greece will be shifted from "emergency loan" status to "line of credit" status. But without the austerity and loan, the Greek government's cost of borrowing will zoom up. (It already has.) So, are Greeks willing to risk being cut adrift with high interest rates for less austerity? Or will they prefer ONE MORE round of austerity because the bailout exit door beckons? Or do they see this as a useful opportunity to renegotiate?
http://www.france24.com/en/20141217-greek-government-faces-major-test-
presidential-vote-samaras-syriza%20
/

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Saturday, December 20, 2014 3:38 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


waterboarded ?

So, no real lasting damage then, what so ever.


That's a good thing !

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Saturday, December 20, 2014 3:42 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Why should anyone pay attention to anything a perv and liar like you posts?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, December 23, 2014 11:50 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Greek parliament fails to elect president in second round vote

Quote:

Greece’s parliament failed to elect a new president in Tuesday’s second-round vote, increasing the chances of an early general election in February that could bring the anti-bailout Syriza party to power.

Stavros Dimas, the governing coalition’s candidate, won 168 votes, eight more than in last week’s first-round ballot, following a last-ditch appeal for consensus by Antonis Samaras, the prime minister.

But the former European environment commissioner now appears unlikely to capture the 180 votes needed in the third and final ballot on December 29. Lawmakers from two small opposition parties that could make up the shortfall are expected to abstain.

“This is all about the third round. That is when parliamentarians will have maximum leverage to extract as much as they can from the government in exchange for their support,” said Mujtaba Rahman, head of European analysis at the Eurasia Group risk consultancy.

The additional support for Mr Dimas came only from independent MPs, while the moderate Democratic Left and rightwing Independent Greeks resisted the appeal for consensus to complete talks on leaving Greece’s four-year bailout and securing a new credit line from international borrowers.

Both parties have reportedly been in contact with Syriza with a view to co-operating with a future leftwing government although no details of a specific agreement have emerged.

Syriza has kept a steady lead in opinion polls over the governing centre-right New Democracy party since coming first in European parliamentary elections held in May.

Alexis Tsipras, its leader, has vows that, if elected, he will demand a sizeable write-off of Greece’s sovereign debt and revive the economy through increased public spending — putting Athens on a collision course with its international creditors.

“Markets are seeing right through this presidential process to early elections next year and the implications of a Syriza-led government,” Mr Rahman said.
In depth

Greece struggles on with drastic austerity as eurozone leaders continue to argue over how to help the country cope with its debt mountain

Greece has already lost access to borrowing on international capital markets amid fears of mounting political instability, while its fragile economic recovery this year would be at risk if a leftwing government chose to confront the EU and International Monetary Fund over economic reforms voted for under the Samaras government.

Greek 10-year bonds moved fractionally higher after the result but remain below 10 per cent.

Mr Samaras on Sunday offered to bring forward a general election to late 2015 and open up his coalition government to smaller parties as a way of persuading recalcitrant MPs to back Mr Dimas for the presidency.

In an unscheduled television address on Sunday, Mr Samaras called for a “consensus” vote for Mr Dimas, urging MPs to “listen to the voice of conscience, national interest and common sense”.

Only a successful presidential election would restore stability, enabling Greece to end its unpopular bailout and negotiate a credit line from international borrowers on less onerous terms, Mr Samaras said.

Some analysts argued the prime minister needed to notch up at least 170 votes in Tuesday’s second-round vote to give him a reasonable chance of winning the final ballot on Monday.



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/130dc19a-8a90-11e4-8e24-00144feabdc0.html#ix
zz3MjvAoDu1


Parliament has one more vote to go. If the current goverment's choice of President isn't approved, general snap elections will follow.

I think this is more important than people give it credit. Secession votes - both official and unofficial in Scotland, Catalonia, and Venice - as well as the rapid rise of anti-EU parties in the UK (UKIP), France (Front Nationale), Spain (Podemos) and Greece (Syriza) indicate extreme dissatisfaction with the "technocrats" in the ECB, the bureaucrats in Brussels, and the Germans specifically.

Greece, in particular, faces an interesting choice. If it chooses to exit the EU, it could ask to join the CIS. Once a member, the new Blue Stream pipeline which currently is planned to transit Turkey and the Bosporus Straight could be extended thru Greece. Not sure how the Greeks feel about being downstream of their mortal enemy, Turkey.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 23, 2014 4:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Why should anyone pay attention to anything a perv and liar like you posts?




You forgot war mongering , racist, misogynist and homophobe in w/ your trolling of ANYTHING I post, as you fail to pay attention.


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Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:40 PM

WHOZIT


Who the fuck cares?

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Saturday, December 27, 2014 6:11 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GREEKS DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' DEMOCRACY- Samaras
(Sounds like rappy)

Quote:

It's not a question of what's good for me or New Democracy. It's best for the country that there are not snap elections.- Samaras

Translation: you don't need no stinking democracy, trust us - your benevolent rulers - to do what's best for the Greek people.

*SNAP ELECTIONS WILL THROW GREECE INTO TURMOIL, SAMARAS SAYS (and the ECB)
*GREECE'S BIGGEST PROBLEM IS POLITICAL UNCERTAINTY: SAMARAS (not record youth unemployment, povrty, and suicide rates, and surging youth emigration)
*SAMARAS SAYS NOW IS TIME FOR LAWMAKERS TO DO THEIR DUTY (ignore the people's pleas and pain, vote for EU bureaucrats)

And with Greece's (anti-EU) Syriza party now leading by 2.5pts in the latest polls, it is hardly surprising Samaras is pulling out all the 'turmoil' threats.

"Greek people don't want elections," he chides.

By 'Greek people', we assume he means 'unelected European bureaucrats'.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-27/greek-prime-minister-its-best
-country-do-away-democracy


Monday is the day of the third vote.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 11:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


GREEKS REJECT SAMARAS AND THE ECB

Merkel, Juncker, and the financial classes have been busy warning Greeks not to "vote wrong", but despite the looming prospect of no more loans, skyrocketing borrowing costs, bank runs, and an intransigent European Central Bank (ECB)/IMF, the legislature turned down the Prime Minister's presidential candidate, requiring that a whole new government be elected.

Greece is already feeling the immediate effects of the vote, as the Athens stock market has fallen by 10% after the vote (after previously falling 10% in anticipation). Greek bond yields are drastically higher as buyers perceive greater risk of default. Because Greece doesn't have its own currency but uses the Euro, it's currency has not fallen, however, it's possible that bank runs may be in the future.

Why did the Parliament vote this way?

Probably because if they had not, there would have been a revolution. 6 in 10 young adults are out of a job and the overall unemployment rate is 26%. Most people- even the former middle class- are in or near poverty. Greece does not have "safety nets" like many other developed nations. All of these consequences are widely and correctly seen as a result of ECB/ IMF/ German bank policy.

Compared to hunger and homelessness, the prospect of bank failures can't frighten anyone who doesn't have a bank account, and by now only the very wealthy are exposed to risk. That's what happens when you destroy the middle class.

If the ECB/ IMF/ EC are as intransigent as Merkel says they will be, then the attempt by a new Greek government to renegotiate their loans (renegotiate along very modest lines, btw, I've read the proposals and they seem very reasonable) will fail. Greece will then have no choice but to exit the EU. IF they do, Greece may request to be part of the Russian customs union (CIS) as it is nearly impossible for a small nation to "go it alone" economically. Alternatively, Greece may follow the path of Iceland, and find that China is a ready and willing lender.

And one wonders, is this the first crack in the EU dam?


Greek Vote for President Fails, Reviving Uncertainty
http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-to-face-early-elections-after-presi
dential-vote-fails-1419850337


When Fearmongering Goes Bad: Greece Scrambles To Prevent Deposit Run Goldman Warned About In Its "Worst Case"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-29/when-fearmongering-goes-bad-g
reece-scrambles-prevent-deposit-run-goldman-warned-abou


Middle-class Greeks at risk of poverty and unemployment
http://www.cctv-america.com/2014/12/23/middle-class-greeks-at-risk-of-
poverty-and-unemployment



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


In general I hope Greece does bail out of the EU. And that others follow shortly, who are being poorly served by a structure that does NOT have their interests at heart. (With any luck a flood of exits would keep Germany/ EU from focusing retribution strategies too highly on any one country.) In any case, it's far better to be dealing with your own problems than dealing with your own problems AND a system intent on bleeding you dry.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, January 18, 2015 1:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Greece's Syriza party widens lead over conservatives: poll

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/17/us-greece-election-poll-idUS
KBN0KQ0OX20150117



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, January 18, 2015 1:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


FWIW last I read Yanis Varofarkis does not support an exit.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, January 19, 2015 3:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


You're right, he doesn't. OTOH, it might happen anyway. Germany really doesn't want to shell out more $$ for Greece. The German powers-that-be really, really hate the Greeks. I think they want the Greeks to leave.

I heard an interesting interview with somebody named Paul Schulte (Keiser report EP 706) and one of the things he said was that Greece was small potatoes. According to him, the worst corporate balance sheets IN THE WORLD are Spain, Italy, France, and Germany. If the EU doesn't get it's economic act together bad corporate debts are going to spread to the banks, which themselves are kind of wobbly.

One of the reasons why I'm thinking in this direction is that Russia (and China) might want to retaliate against the west, and I was looking for the biggest weakness in the western financial system. Obviously, the EU is in bad shape and the Euro is losing value, so if you want to push on the weakest point, that might be one place to push. Still thinking out loud.


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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Sunday, January 25, 2015 11:52 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Published On: Sun, Jan 25th, 2015
News | By nsnbc
Greek Election: Syriza poised for Victory

http://nsnbc.me/2015/01/25/greek-election-syriza-poised-for-victory/

Largest group, but not a majority government

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Sunday, January 25, 2015 1:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


NOPE! I was wrong!

Syriza will apparently win an absolute majority.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-25/greek-exit-polls-hint-massive
-victory-syriza-live-webcast


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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, January 30, 2015 9:28 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Greece holds tense meeting with eurozone finance chief

Quote:

The meeting between Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis and eurogroup finance chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem ended in a tense press conference (coverage of the conference starts from here). Varoufakis rejected any extension to the country’s bailout and refused to co-operate with the troika of lenders (the ECB, EU and IMF).

Dijsselbloem criticised “unilateral” moves and said a decision on Greece’s 28 February deadline with its lenders would be reached before then.

Helena Smith was at the press conference and reports:
Dijsselbloem and Varoufakis. Dijsselbloem and Varoufakis.

The battle lines between Greece and its creditors were drawn in Athens as the Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis announced that the new government would refuse to engage with officials representing the country’s hated “troika” of lenders.

Standing his ground after talks in the capital with the euro group chief Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the finance minister said Greece would not be pursuing further discourse “with that committee.” Nor would it be rowing back on the promises that had got it into power by asking for an extension to its €240bn bailout programme. “This platform enabled us to win the confidence of the Greek people,” Varoufakis told a press conference, insisting that the “logic” of austerity had been repudiated by voters when the far left Syriza party stormed to victory in Sunday’s election.

Meanwhile German finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said Germany was open for talks with the new Greek government but would not be blackmailed.

Which drew a predictable response from a Greek government spokesman.

The tensions between Greece and the rest of the eurozone sent the Athens market lower again and hit shorter dated Greek bonds.


http://www.theguardian.com/business/blog/live/2015/jan/30/greece-await
s-meeting-with-eurozone-finance-chief-live-updates



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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, February 6, 2015 1:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


In a cringeworthy (cringeworthy for the BBC, anyway) bit of reporting, Yanis Veroufakis calls out BBC reporter for being confrontational, interruptive, inaccurate, and rude



ETA: Oops! I'll try to find an updated version when one becomes available.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.


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Friday, February 6, 2015 2:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, Greece is part of THREE European organizations:

The monetary organization of the Euro
The political/parliamentary organization of the EU
The military alliance NATO

People- including me- tend to conflate the organizations, since they have considerable overlap. However, there are exceptions ... it's not as if the three organizations overlap 100%. It seems to me that a nation can belong to one, two, or all three of the above.

There is nothing preventing Greece from leaving the Eurozone (the monetary union) while staying in the EU. For example, the UK and Denmark have never adopted the Euro, while Sweden has yet to adopt it. So there are examples already of nations in the EU which have not adopted the Euro currency.

There is also nothing against a nation being in the EU and not in NATO - Ireland, Sweden, Finland, Austria, Malta and Cyprus are EU/ non-NATO members. (And on the flip side, there is nothing against being in NATO and not in the EU- Canada and Turkey, for example, are non-EU NATO members)

Theoretically, Greece could leave the Eurozone and NATO and still be an EU member. The politics and wrangling on getting there would be interesting, to say the least.

I think Greece would like to remain within the EU, but leave the Eurozone. I wonder about their position on NATO.

I heard many months ago that a breakway nation can't make it on its own without a larger sponsor. South Sudan and the various Yugoslavian remnants had the USA and the EU. Crimea has Russia. Greece will have to reach out to some other nation - probably Russia- for support. I wonder what kind of deal-making is going on. Russia has already announced that it would make an exception for Greece from its ban on agricultural imports, and the Greek National Defense Minister Panos Kammenos was invited to Moscow for talks. And then, there is that pipeline which is planned to end right on Greece's border. Merkel and the German banks and the ECB are playing hardball. The first real showdown is expected Feb 15.


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Sunday, March 8, 2015 4:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


To catch everyone up to speed:

Syriza was elected. But despite all of the heated rhetoric about ending austerity, harsh words about the troika, and tremendous outflow of money (which Syriza failed to stem using capital controls) the new Finance Minister, Yanis Veroufakis, folded like a cheap suit in talks with the EU. The only changes in the "agreement" between Greece and the EU were changes in wording: the troika was no longer referred to by name, but as "the institutions", a recommitment to paying the debt in full (instead of the "haircut" originally proposed), and an acceptance of whatever conditions "the institutions" require for the last tranche of loans (i.e. more debt for a bankrupt nation).

Greece has been in the throes of trying to come up with a "non-austerity" austerity plan which will satisfy the troika. And the troika, having given Syriza enough rope with which to hang itself, at the last minute imposed yet ONE MORE condition on any Syriza proposals .... the proposals must be ratified by the Greek Parliament and implemented by the government. Clearly, this is a condition which would never be able to be met in time for Greece to meaningfully receive additional loans, and is an indication that the troika never intended to accept a ANY plan from Syriza, and only intends to destroy the party (or have the party destroy itself). The latest article from Zerohedge on this moment is below.

I have been getting emails from my email group on this. Here are two particularly prescient emails from a person who has been following this closely:

This is a good demonstration of how capitulating to the banks does not mean that they will ease tensions on you. Yanis capitulated in order to get some stabilization in Greece's currency and bank liquidity. The result? Absolutely no relief. In fact an acceleration of the problem. Bank liquidity is falling like a rock and further austerity measures will now be demanded by the Troika. Nice job Yanis. I wonder how he is going to spin this. They have to get to the point where they understand a very simple fact. In order to get out from under the boot you do not negotiate you just bite the bullet and get out from under. If they do not get up the nerve to do that they are going to end up worse than Ukraine.

-sent on 2/26.

Yanis went into this struggle with the Troika with the naive notion that he had no need for a plan B. His belief in the 'exceptional' society was absolute. He could not conceive of the possibility that the Troikas response was going to be so completely intransigent. There is no such thing as economics but only political_economics. If he would have analyzed the motives driving the Troika he would have understood that there was no such thing as the "Good EU", the exceptional society. He has now received an education.

What the plan B should have been:
Immediately put in monetary controls. Print Drachma as fast as possible. Swap the Drachma for Euros on a one to one basis in the banks. Transfer all Euros to the central back to act as reserve. Now they can go and negotiate. The Troika would have at this point understood that Syriza was totally prepared to drop the Euro. If the Troika was intransigent immediately switch to the Drachma officially. Talk to the Chinese and Russians about currency swaps. Apply for membership to the Bricks, EEU, observer status to the SCO and accept the membership already offered by Russia to the CIS. Exit NATO since if they stay a member of NATO their application for membership in the SCO and EEU would be summarily rejected. And prepare yourself for the possible instigation of a color revolution using Golden Dawn (NAZI). From here on out further steps are too conditional on the Troika's response for me to be able to discern what would happen. But instead he went into the negotiations with belief in the reasonableness of his fellow Europeans and Atlanticists. He was in other words a damned fool.

Freedom is a choice. It is not negotiable and it has consequences. To be free means to take responsibility for yourself. It does not mean begging the slave master for your release. Where he to grant it you would still not be free. It has to be your choice with the full willingness to accept the consequences.


- sent on 2/24.


The article from Zerohedge

Greece "Risks Bankruptcy" As Europe Rejects Varoufakis Payment Plan; Another Referendum Fiasco Ensues

Quote:

There was one reaction by the Eurogroup following the (delayed) submission of the Greek 7-point reform proposal - which includes the brilliant idea to use foreign tourists as wired, part-time tax spies - in advance of the latest Monday finmin meeting: laughter.

Financial Times reports that the reaction from eurozone officials to the tourist plan was received with humor. They thought the proposal was hilarious and even laughed when they read it. “It’s quite hilarious, if it were not so tragic, that this is what a government in an industrialised country comes up with,” said one eurozone official involved in the talks.

There will be little laughter in cash-strapped Greece, however, if the Sunday Times is correct in its report that the "Eurogroup finance ministers are to reject radical reform proposals from Greece at a meeting in Brussels tomorrow."

The Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis will present a seven-point plan in a desperate attempt to unlock a €7.2bn (£5.2bn) cash injection — the final payment under a bailout plan agreed three years ago. According to a source close to the discussions, European officials believe Greece needs to do more “on the ground”.

As the Times concluded, Greece is hoping for a favorable response because unless the cash injection is approved, Greece faces a "full-scale default."

Unfortunately for Greece, moments ago Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung confirmed the bad news, when it said that the EU commission has rejected the Greek request for speedy aid payments, cites Valdis Dombrovskis, EU commissioner for the euro. The commissioner adds that the Varoufakis letter "lacks specific enough action plan and that the reform steps must be approved by Greek parliament and be implemented." In other words, as we reported before, Greece is back to square minus one, where first Europe will send the dreaded Troika inspectors "on the ground" in Athens to catch up to everything they have missed in the months they have been absent and then, and only then, does Greece have any chance of even being seriously considered for more aid.

The problem is that this will come far too late to satisfy not only the upcoming IMF payments (as a reminder these are due as follows: €350 million on March 13, €580 million on March 16 and another €350 million on March 20), but now that Greece no longer has access to the various pension and social security funding "swaps" it may even be unable to rollover its next T-Bill maturity.

Recall Greece has a total of €2 billion in debt-servicing payments, including T-bill redemptions and IMF obligations coming due on Friday.

Bloomberg adds:

In the absence of bailout funds, Tsipras said in an interview with Der Spiegel magazine that he planned to use short-term treasury bills to cover any cash shortfall in the coming weeks. The ability of Greek banks to buy these securities is constrained by a deposit outflow and the ECB’s refusal to accept more so-called T-bills as collateral for financing the country’s lenders. ECB President Mario Draghi poured cold water on Greek lobbying for the government to be allowed to issue more short-term debt, and for Greek banks to be permitted to buy it.

“The ECB is a rules-based, not a political institution,” and can’t provide monetary financing to governments, either directly or indirectly, [UNLESS WE ARE DOING QUANTITATIVE EASING, WHICH WE WILL EXTEND TO EVERY NATION EXCEPT GREECE- SIGNY] “when banks bring collateral in order to buy that debt,” Draghi said on Thursday.

So with its back against the wall, and with its funds lower than ever, Greece had no choice but to resort to warnings/threats that either Europe steps up or the government will directly to the people, with another referendum. Which led to the latest "lost in translation" fiasco involving Greece (the latest of very many in the past few weeks), in which Italy’s Il Corriere della Sera quoted Varoufakis as saying Greece may call new elections, and hold referendum on the euro if European finance ministers reject reform proposals.

Greece, without any leverage left, was then quick to point out that it wasn't trying to give Europe merely another ultimatum, and a Greek government official said in e-mail to reporters that Varoufakis "never said that referendum would be held on country’s euro membership." Instead, the referendum would be on the government's policy. As Bloomberg adds, "Varoufakis never said or meant that the country’s membership in the euro area would be the subject of a hypothetical referendum in his interview with Corriere, the country’s finance ministry said in an e-mailed statement. Implementation an agreement extending the country’s bailout loans proceeds normally, and Greece will repay all financial obligations on time and in full, the ministry said."

With what money? Quote the NYT:

Jens Bastian, a financial consultant based in Athens and a former member of the European Commission’s task force on Greece, [said] “The situation is dire, and this government is finding out in real time how difficult it is to meet its multiple obligations,” he said. “It tells you something about the sheer level of desperation they face to identify any funding resources wherever they can pinch pennies.”

Reuters add:
Former Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, who is now head of the main opposition party, said a referendum would be "a very bad development" and allow the government to shrug off its responsibilities.
The now much-diminished Greek Socialist PASOK party, also in the opposition to Tsipras' radical left alliance, said in a statement that Varoufakis's statement was "irresponsible, thoughtless and contradictory".


As for the semantics of the referendum, they all boil down to the same thing: Syriza would be asking the voters to resolve two contradictory ideals: either the Greeks concede to austerity, or they agree to exiting the Eurozone. Because for Greece there no longer is a compromise, middle ground.
Sadly, there is no money either.
“I can only say that we have money to pay salaries and pensions of public employees,” Varoufakis told Corriere. “For the rest we will see.”

Still, despite all the posturing and the return of quasi-threats on both sides, the fate of Greece may now be sealed:
ECB Governing Council member Luc Coene said some comments by the Greek government have left him wondering whether the country belongs in the European economic and monetary union.
“When I hear certain declarations of the Greek government, I ask myself: ‘what are they still doing in this mechanism?’” he is quoted as saying in an interview with Belgian newspaper Le Soir.


Right about now, as the Greek deposit flight is almost certain to resume on this latest escalation in rhetoric is set to resume, Greeks are likely asking themselves the same question. As for Syriza, its days may indeed be numbered if the following graffiti are indicative of the rapidly shifting popular mood, whose brief infatuation with the new ultra-left and "reformist" government is now only a distant memory. And if indeed Syriza's days are numbered, is the neo-nazi Golden Dawn up next to rule the battered Eurozone member?



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-08/greece-risks-bankruptcy-europ
e-rejects-varoufakis-payment-plan-another-referendum-fi



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Sunday, March 8, 2015 4:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hm. Thanks for the update.




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Monday, April 6, 2015 12:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Greek Minister Slams Troika's "Unbelievable Prejudice" As EU Proclaims Tsipras' Government "Cannot Survive"

Quote:

The rhetoric, threats, and promises continue to increase as Greece, its international creditors (i.e. Troika), and its potential pivot partners from Russia to China to Iran all vie for attention.

Greek FinMin Varoufakis 'promised' Christine Lagarde this morning that Greece will repay the IMF loan on April 9th (though was unable to explain how)...


Though it is unclear where he will get the cash from...

Even as energy minister Panagiotis Lafazanis denounced Greece’s international creditors for treating the country with "unbelievable prejudice and as a colony." As The Guardian reports,

With Greece's cashflow problem deteriorating with every passing day, rumours of Athens' overtures towards the unlikeliest of sources have the sprung up. The latest comes from the country's former prime minister, Atonis Samaras.
Mr Samaras has accused the current incumbent of “sending his cousin to Iran to ask the Tehran government to buy Greek bonds”.
"When you are in Europe and ask Chinese, Iranians, Russians to finance your deficit, don’t you send a signal to the rest of Europe that you are not really a serious pro-European?," was the refrain of the leader of the much diminished New Democracy party.
The rumours remain unsubstantiated for now. An official Greek visit to Tehran is not yet in the pipeline, but the search for foreign bondholders is likely to continue. The European Central Bank has banned domestic banks from increasing their holdings of government debt - a stance that pushed Athens to seek out alternative willing investors.
With the clock ticking on its cash crunch, both sides will be hoping for a denouement to the saga before Mr Tsipras returns to Moscow in May. The Greek premier will be marking Russian Victory Day - a celebration of the capitulation of Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union in the Second World War.


EU officials have suggested privately that Greek prime minister Tsipras should jettison the far left of his governing Syriza party to make a bailout agreement possible with one senior official exclaiming "this government cannot survive." As The FT reports,

Eurozone authorities’ frustration with Greece has grown so intense that a change in the current Athens government’s make-up, however far-fetched, has become a frequent topic of conversation on the sidelines of bailout talks.
Many officials — up to and including some eurozone finance ministers — have suggested privately that only a decision by Alexis Tsipras, Greek prime minister, to jettison the far left of his governing Syriza party can make a bailout agreement possible.
The idea would be for Mr Tsipras to forge a new coalition with Greece’s traditional centre-left party, the beleaguered Pasok, and To Potami (The River), a new centre-left party that fought its first general election in January.
“Tsipras has to decide whether he wants to be prime minister or the leader of Syriza,” said one European official.
A senior official in a eurozone finance ministry added: “This government cannot survive.”
Members of Syriza’s moderate wing admit there is a problem with the Left Platform, the official internal opposition that represents about a third of the party and controls enough MPs to bring down the government if it were to rebel in a parliamentary vote.


With 68% of Europeans seeing Greece as a drag on the EU economy...


Perhaps Greece's last best hope is the pivot to an increasingly interested Russia or China (or even Iran) because even the rost case scenario inside the EU could make Brussels very uncomfortable...

One person briefed on the EU’s negotiating stance said concern was rising in Brussels that if the continued stalemate forced Greece to impose capital controls to prevent a bank run, this could strengthen Syriza’s populist appeal rather than sparking disillusionment among voters.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-06/greek-minister-slams-troikas-
unbelievable-prejudice-eu-proclaims-tsipras-government
-


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Monday, April 6, 2015 2:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


I have a bit of a bad feeling about the way all this is going for the Greeks, despite your enthusiasm Sig.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Saturday, May 16, 2015 11:25 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Without further ado ....

Greece Will Default On June 5 Without Deal, IMF Leaks
Quote:

Another week came and went with no breakthrough in negotiations between Greece and its creditors. The IMF is now fed up and has reportedly refused to be a part of any new bailout program for Greece, after Athens drew down its SDR reserves to makes its latest payment to the Fund. That money will now need to be repaid and in a move that surely marks the new gold standard for absurd circular funding schemes, Greece will likely look to use the next tranche of IMF money to payback its IMF SDR reserve which it tapped to pay the IMF. The country’s public sector employees live in limbo, not knowing from one week to the next whether they will be paid and commuters are now subjected to a 50 second looped highlight reel of the Nazi occupation meant to rally the country behind the government’s quarter trillion euro war reparations claim (they might as well just ask for a 'gagillion') on Germany which has now become the symbol of tyranny and debt servitude for many Greek citizens.

Given the situation, one would be inclined to think that Alexis Tsipras would be falling all over himself to cut a deal with creditors because while giving up on campaign promises to voters isn’t ideal, it’s better than going down in history as the PM who sent the country careening into a drachma death spiral, and besides, giving up on campaign promises is something most politicians do all the time (it’s a job requirement for the US presidency). Alas we were back to the now ubiquitous ‘red line’ rhetoric on Friday as Tsipras continued to employ the “tell EU officials one thing behind close doors and tell the public the exact opposite a day later” negotiating technique. Here’s more from Bloomberg:

Greece won’t cross its red lines in negotiations with international creditors just because time is pressing to close a deal, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras said.

“Those who think that our red lines will fade as time goes on would do well to forget it,” Tsipras said at a conference in Athens late Friday. “I want to assure the Greek people that there’s no way the government will back down on the issue of pension and wage cuts,” he said. “A deal must be reached but it must be mutually beneficial.”



More at
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-16/greece-will-default-june-5-wi
thout-deal-imf-leaks


First of all, it appears that the IMF intends to continue to waterboard Greece pretty much the same way it intends to waterboard Ukraine. I just read the provisions that the IMF have placed on a loan to Ukraine; basically the IMF expects the government to impoverish its people and sell off its assets to international bidders, pretty much the same way that the IMF is controlling Greece. But unlike Ukraine, Greece has been offered a home with the BRICS bank, so even if a Grexit occurs, it will be very very painful but probably not fatal.


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Monday, June 8, 2015 2:41 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The EU "Institutions" (the Troika by another name) has played some pretty dirty pool during the negotiations.

For example, during the supposedly confidential initial negotiations between Varoufakis and Schauble, information leaked out that the EU negotiators thought that Varoufakis was "a time-waster, a gambler, and an amateur"
http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis
-accused-of-being-a-time-waster-a-gambler-and-an-amateur-at-eurogroup-meeting-2015-4


and that he had been "sidelined" by Tsipras, the Greek Prime Minister. Those leaks were repeated faithfully and generously by the European and American MSM.

It wasn't until Varoufakis revealed that he RECORDS all of his meetings (to accurately report back to the PM) that the story began to change, because all of those "leaks" were LIES, and the various EU negotiators had libeled Varoufakis in the press.

Anyway.

What we are seeing is very, very hard public bargaining. The Greeks asked to "bundle" their IMF payments so they wouldn't be due until the end of this month (June), putting off the moment when they officially can't pay. Juncker re-set the deadline for agreement to just a week from now, reminding the Greeks that there needs to be at least a week to craft the official agreement and to transfer funds, even after agreement is reached in principal.

I believe there will be a Graccident, a messy default. The Germans seem to be hanging tough. They can't possibly give in to Syriza because it would encourage Podemos (Spain) and the Five Star Movement (Italy) to bargain for better terms as well. So the Germans have an interest in a VERY messy default, and by stretching out the process until well in the summer, Greece will still be in the throes of a crisis (and a good example to all leftists) by the time elections roll around in October.

Timing is everything!





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Monday, June 8, 2015 7:20 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


FWIW what I've read - and you have to understand this is the msm with a paradigm to flog - Syriza is supposedly split between the 'we need to knuckle under' opinion and the 'f*** this s***' opinion. What I don't understand is why Tsipras is hesitating to make the exit. I don't see a viable economic answer for Greece in the EU. And Tsipras has a place to go. Granted it may not be his ideal place, but it seems economically survivable. There must be factors I don't know about.

Also, I too read about the dirty tricks played by the EU against Varoufakis. But for all the noise that was made in the msm, once the secret was out that the meetings were recorded, the whole topic disappeared into a deep dark media silence. It's as if it never happened. POOF! Like magic.




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Saturday, June 13, 2015 12:02 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I have to say that either the Greeks are crazy like a fox ... or they're just crazy.

Germany isn't going to relent on its demands that its bankers and bond-holders be paid, and even if Germany wants to give Greece a little wiggle room, the IMF seems ready to break Greece on the wheel.

So, these negotiations haven't been conducted in private. Not really. The German/EU negotiating team leak information out (some of it libelous) about the Greek negotiating team. The Greek negotiating team's responses are "out there" for the public so see, which is "We won't cross our red lines".

At this point, popular sentiment in both nations have been hardening, making ANY sort of concession very difficult for either side. So the publicity seems to be driving the bargaining partners further and further apart. (I guess that means if you really want your negotiations to succeed, you talk in private!)

Since Varoufakis works in "game theory", I'd supposed he'd recognize that game that they seem to be playing is "chicken" .... when both parties speed toward their mutual doom, believing that they can force the other party to veer aside.

But neither side looks willing to make that move.

IF that is the sum total of Syriza's negotiating strategy .... making Germany blink first ... I think it's doomed to failure. The OTHER part of that strategy is that Syriza promised to stay in the Euro. Well, if the Euro nations kick them out, it's not Syriza's fault, right?

Still, getting kicked out of the Euro and being able to "blame" someone else ... while being short-term political solution ... won't help Greece recover economically. In the long run, people will expect someone to save them from the disaster of a Grexit. So, does Syriza have a super-secret "plan B"?

If they do, they've been very quiet about it. They've made no moves towards capital controls- in fact, it seems as if they almost want to wring Euros out of their financial system. But a few meetings with Putin, the Russian military, and an offer to join the BRICS bank are all very well, but none of that is going to help Greece pick up the pieces from a Euro defection. Unless the deal is that Greece just gets a boatload of yuan as its foreign currency reserves, by pledging future gas transit fees back to China. Or something!

Very hard to figure out, but if Greece has a "Plan B", it's a very deep level plan.

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Monday, June 15, 2015 12:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Greece, creditors dig in after debt talks founder

Quote:

Greece and its creditors stuck to their positions on Monday after the collapse of talks aimed at preventing a default and possible euro exit, while Germany's EU commissioner said it was time to prepare for a "state of emergency"


WHO is preparing for a state of emergency? Is Germany preparing for a "state of emergency" in Greece? Then, look out, Greece: Germany is about to invade you- again!

Quote:

Germany and other major creditor countries demanded that the Athens government come to its senses and offer new proposals.

"It won't work that Greece sets the terms and says 'everyone has to dance to our tune'. Greece needs to get back to reality," Volker Kauder, parliamentary floor leader of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives, told ARD television.



The Greeks have been living their reality for six years now. And the reality is that Greece is broke. The previous Greek governments have wrung as much money as possible out of the poorer Greeks to pay German banks, and have pretty much destroyed the Greek economy. Germany, the EU, and the IMF have discovered the limits of "how much money you can suck out of an economy", and "extending and pretending" only gets you so far. This is, I think the end of the road.

Quote:

Despite the deepening crisis, Sakellaridis said Tsipras was going ahead with a planned visit to Russia from Thursday, the day euro zone finance ministers hold a crucial meeting in Luxembourg to review the standoff with Greece. He is due to stay till Saturday, attend an economic forum in Saint Petersburg and meet President Vladimir Putin.
So while Brussels, Merkel, and the IMF are cooling their heels from Thursday to Saturday (and, if you'll notice, all of the important negotiations happen on the weekend) ... Tsipras will be in Russia.
I hope they're planning on blunting a "police action" by the EU.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/15/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0O
S0E020150615


My guess: Greece is going to get Chinese financing in some way.

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Sunday, June 21, 2015 12:27 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Greece Told To Have A Deal Ready Before Monday Meeting; Tsipras Submits Revised Plan With No Pension Cuts

"Update: the farce must go on because according to Bloomberg the "final final" Greek proposal never made it, and was, ahem, lost in tranmission: EU HAS RECEIVED NO NEW PROPOSAL FROM GREECE YET: EU DIPLOMAT - BLOOMBERG"

* * *

Quote:

With just under 24 hours until Monday's final summit after which even JPMorgan now agrees the ECB will be forced to use a nuclear option and limit or cut Greek ELA thus imposing capital controls as a "negotiating tactic", earlier today both France and Germany told Greece it must have a reform deal agreement with the Troika finalized and delivered before a crucial leaders’ summit between Athens and its creditors on Monday; in other words before trading opens on Monday.

According to the FT, with the Greek cabinet meeting on Sunday to consider compromise proposals, François Hollande and Angela Merkel both telephoned Alexis Tsipras, the prime minister, to remind him he needed a “staff level” agreement with the European Commission, IMF and ECB ahead of the summit.

They told him the summit was not for “negotiations” — which anyway would be all but impossible in a forum including all 19 eurozone members — and urged him to reach a deal with the institutions.... If a deal is reached, the two leaders said the parties could then start discussing a third bailout at the summit. France is believed to be open to discussing debt relief and restructuring for Athens, a top priority for Mr Tsipras, whose radical leftwing government won office in January setting Greece on a collision course with its creditors.

As a result, the Greek cabinet has been summoned to a meeting at Tsipras’ Maximos Mansion residence on Sunday morning for a last-ditch meeting to hash out the government’s strategy. Here they are expected to discuss how Mr Tsipras can bridge his two seemingly intractable electoral mandates: to end austerity and block further cuts in spending while also satisfying creditors’ demands for reform to keep Greece in the Eurozone.

And while the Greek negotiating position is one where any spending-cut compromise will be seen as a defeat for Tsipras - just yesterday the Minister of State Nikos Pappas used an interview with the country’s Ethnos newspaper to reiterate the government’s firm opposition to cuts to pension plans or wages - moments ago the Greek Prime Minister presented Greece's proposal for a deal during phone talks on Sunday with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, French President Francois Hollande and EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, according to Reuters.

"The prime minister presented the three leaders Greece's proposal for a mutually beneficial agreement that will give a definitive solution and not postpone addressing the problem," it said in a statement.

Bloomberg has the bulk of the proposed details:

> Greek plan to unlock bailout funds includes proposal to eliminate early retirement options starting from Jan. 1, 2016, a Greek government official says, asking not to be named.
> Plan includes levy on companies with more than €500,000 in annual profits
> Plan includes increase in “solidarity levy” for individuals earning more than €30,000/yr
> Creditors ask permanent fiscal measures equal to 2.5% of GDP, Greece proposes measures equal to 2%/GDP; proposes to cover difference of 0.5%/GDP with “administrative measures”
> Greek govt would agree to target demanded by creditors for 1%/GDP primary budget surplus
> Greek govt insists on 3 bands for VAT rates; creditors want 2 bands; Greek govt proposes to move more products to higher band of 23%, in order to cover fiscal gap
> Greek govt has proposed zero deficit clause, debt break for Greek budget; clause would include automatic spending cuts in case threshold is breached
> Greek govt would be willing to adopt additional fiscal measures, if agreement with creditors includes commitment to debt relief


...

For Tsipras pension cuts are clearly a non-starter because as we said last week "he would almost certainly be promptly swept from power as Syriza renegs on its most solemn pre-election vow."

This is what else we said:

With Greek tax revenues imploding and the hope of even a 1% primary surplus long gone as a result of the Greek economy grinding to a halt. Which in turn means that in order to be sustainable (and whatever happened to the IMF's "sustainable" 2022 Greek debt/GDP forecast anyway), Greece has no choice but to cut both wages and pensions.

Only the Greek government knows that such a move would be the start of the endgame, and will lead to either another technocratic government, a puppet of the Troika, or to an even more extremist government, this time from the ideological right.


Overnight, Germany's FAZ agreed with that assessment, noting that Greece creditors estimate country’s budget gap of €2b to €3.6b this month. The shortage won’t allow Greek government to repay IMF (even with a new injection of cash by the IMF) unless it cuts pensions, salaries as expenses amount to €2.2b by end of June.

Based on the "final final" Tsipras proposal, these cuts are still missing,which in turn is a basis for a "non-starter" response by the Troika.

As a result, Greece just played its final bluff. And now, as Yanis Varoufakis also wrote in in Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Angela Merkel faces "a stark choice" ahead of the crucial summit of European leaders in Brussels on Monday.

In other words the Greek parliament has washed its hands of the Greek fate, and a Grexit - if it happens - will be blamed on Merkel, if only in Greece.



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-21/greece-told-have-deal-ready-m
onday-meeting-tsipras-submits-revised-plan-no-pension-c


Both sides SAY they want to stay in the Euro/keep the Eurozone together.

HOWEVER, the negotiating stances of both sides, and the official press coverage in all nations, is driving public opinion against any sort of compromise: In Greece, the press is full of (government) statements that "the Institutions" (Troika) are trying to humiliate Greece, and Germany the press is full of (among other things) officially-crafted and leaked libel, for example, that Varoufakis is an amateur, gambler, and time-waster who had to be sidelined by Tsipras.

What a way to improve negotiations: Libel your negotiating partner!

I guess my point is that neither side appears to be ready to compromise, and the only thing they want to do is to avoid being blamed for the breakup of the eurozone. Neither side will openly say "that's it", which is why Merkel keeps throwing deadlines on the table and Tsipras keeps re-presenting the same things over and over, making a "graccident" passively inevitable but certainly not accidental.

In the meantime, although Greece has followed the IMF's "austerity" program to the letter (up until now) which has completely destroyed the Greek economy, leading to 25% official unemployment and 50% unemployment among the young, frank poverty among many, and a decline of Greek GDP at least as bad as the Great Depression, the IMF is giving NO WIGGLE ROOM for Greek repayments.

On the other hand, the IMF is providing Ukraine with all kinds of delays and assistance, despite the fact that Kiev has met NONE of the conditions required for IMF a bailout: for example, Kiev is still at war internally, has made no moves to negotiate with the Donbas (although that is required as part of the Minsk agreement), declared a "moratorium" on all international debt, and has made little progress in "reforming" its government-economy interface. Clearly, political considerations are foremost in the IMF, and very heavy thumb is placed on the weigh-scales in Ukraine's favor, relative to Greece.

What I STILL don't understand are Greece's options. The only explanation for Syriza's behavior is that they have an ace in their pocket, something which will enable them to make the IMF repayment at the last possible moment while they drag out the drama in an effort to win more concessions. Greece owes $1.8 b. In international finance terms, that's chump change (for example, compared to the roughly $16 billion that Ukraine owes Russia.) Perhaps someone (Russia, China) has floated them a loan to cover their IMF repayments, a loan based on the anticipated revenues from a gas agreement that Greece and Russia just signed.

I have my popcorn out. This is interesting.


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Thursday, June 25, 2015 7:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Still interesting.

It seems as if Tsipras' "plan B" was moderated capitulation, but the IMF will have nothing of it. There seems to be a split between Germany (which seemed to be ready to make concessions) and the IMF (which will make no concessions at all ... but certainly provides a much softer home for Kiev than for Athens!). I can't tell if this is just "good cop/bad cop", but my feeling is that this is a real discrepancy. Germany has managed - thru the eurozone/ECB mechanism - to create its own little fourth reich in Europe, but it almost looks like the IMF wants to take that apart. Well, its certainly confusing!

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Thursday, June 25, 2015 12:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And Merkel sets a new deadline to NEXT Monday. IMF expects Tsipras to slit his own wrists politically, and Merkel follows suit.

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Thursday, June 25, 2015 1:14 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Breaking Greece by P Krugman
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/breaking-greece/

I’ve been staying fairly quiet on Greece, not wanting to shout Grexit in a crowded theater. But given reports from the negotiations in Brussels, something must be said — namely, what do the creditors, and in particular the IMF, think they’re doing?

This ought to be a negotiation about targets for the primary surplus, and then about debt relief that heads off endless future crises. And the Greek government has agreed to what are actually fairly high surplus targets, especially given the fact that the budget would be in huge primary surplus if the economy weren’t so depressed. But the creditors keep rejecting Greek proposals on the grounds that they rely too much on taxes and not enough on spending cuts. So we’re still in the business of dictating domestic policy.

The supposed reason for the rejection of a tax-based response is that it will hurt growth. The obvious response is, are you kidding us? The people who utterly failed to see the damage austerity would do — see the chart, which compares the projections in the 2010 standby agreement with reality — are now lecturing others on growth? Furthermore, the growth concerns are all supply-side, in an economy surely operating at least 20 percent below capacity.

Talk to IMF people and they will go on about the impossibility of dealing with Syriza, their annoyance at the grandstanding, and so on. But we’re not in high school here. And right now it’s the creditors, much more than the Greeks, who keep moving the goalposts. So what is happening? Is the goal to break Syriza? Is it to force Greece into a presumably disastrous default, to encourage the others?
At this point it’s time to stop talking about “Graccident”; if Grexit happens it will be because the creditors, or at least the IMF, wanted it to happen.

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Saturday, June 27, 2015 11:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


TSIPRAS PUNTS

PM Tspiras has called for a referendum (a nationwide vote on this specific issue) for Jul 5, when the Greek voters get to decide if they stay in the Euro and bend to even more austerity, or they go their own way with even more turmoil ahead. The initial problem is that Syriza made an election promise: to stay in the Euro AND to end austerity. But the "troika" (IMF, ECB, EC) were never going to let that happen. Syriza took that game as far as it would go, and now the Greek people have something specific to vote on, which is the troika's "last, best, and final ... take it or leave it" offer.

There's two problems with the referendum. The first problem is that it is to take place AFTER the troika-mandated deadline of June 30. It seems that whatever the referendum decides, the Greek government, under constraint by the IMF, has to declare bankruptcy at the end of the month no matter what.

The other problem is that there's nothing to decide. The troika's final offer will no longer even be available, and the Greek government itself isn't even offering a "plan B". SO the referendum would be: Would you rather have a proposal from the EU which is no longer available, or split from the EU under a plan that is equally murky?


Anyway, Zerohedge has a pretty good summary


"This Is A Sad Decision": Europe Responds To The Greek Referendum, Which Has One Massive Problem

Quote:

In the aftermath of yesterday's "nuclear option" announcement by Greece, when in a dramatic after-midnight speech Greek PM Tsipras announced that Greece would hold a referendum next Sunday, the day after the US independence day, the same Greek government made it very clear how it wants the Greeks to vote.

First, it was the Greek Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, head of the Left Platform movement of Syriza, who said in comments broadcast on state-run ERT TV that a no vote by the Greek people in July 5 referendum “will open the road for a new future for the country" adding that "the dilemma facing Greeks is “whether to live better or not. Greek people are aware of difficulties of a new starting point, they’re ready to support new national effort."

Then the alternate health and social security minister Dimitris Stratoulis doubled down telling ERT-TV that Greeks are being given the opportunity to decide the way forward and “I’m optimistic” that they will give a “resounding” no to the “provocative” demands of the country’s creditors. The only issue is the question being put to the people in the referendum." It got better when he said that "Greeks are being asked to vote whether the country should be a colony, or not, of creditors."

Well, if that's how the referendum question is indeed phrased then yes, it is clear how the Greeks will vote.

As was to be expected, the Greek opposition parties, except for the Nazi-inspired Golden Dawn, expressed horror at the referendum. Conservative main opposition leader Antonis Samaras accused Tsipras' radical left government of advocating an exit from the eurozone and the European Union. "Mr Tsipras has led the country to an absolute impasse," he said. "Between an unacceptable agreement and leaving Europe."

Why? Because they know that despite the referendum move, which is clearly just a last ditch attempt by Tsipras to save his political career by punting the decision straight to the people, if there is a "Yes" vote to the proposed bailout, then Syriza is out and new elections have to follow.

As for the reason why Tsipras had to punt, it is a simple one: at the core of the ongoing Greek negotiation debacle is the inability of the local people to decide what they want: according to various recent polls 80% of Greeks want to stay in the Eurozone and keep the Euro currency, the problem is that 80% also want an end to austerity. Two conditions which are mutually exclusive. It is no surprise then that Tsipras had no clue how to proceed based on his mandate.

So with all that in place, the question was how would Europe respond to this shocking after-midnight (both literally and metaphorically as July 5 comes after the June 30th deadline by which Greece needs to have a deal in place) announcement. Conveniently we had just the soundbite venue today when the European finance minister met once more in Brussels to finalize the Greek deal, which is now clearly moot, and instead were asked for their reactions to the referendum proposal.

Here are some of the key responses:

First, the take of Finnish finance minister Alexander Stubb who said "we’re basically closing the door for any further negotiations,” Stubb says to reporters in Brussels before a meeting of euro-area finance ministers adding that most of the Eurogroup opposes a program extension adding the ominous: "Plan B is fast unraveling and becoming plan A. We cannot extend the program as it stands. There is nothing else on the table. We will have to see what the next step entails for Greece."

When asked if Europe will impose capital controls on Greece after last night's dramatic footage of long ATM lines following Tsipras' announcement he said that "We are in no position to announce bank holidays in Greece nor are we in any position to announce capital controls in Greece"

Then it was the turn of Varoufakis' old nemesis, Dijsselbloem, who said that the Greeks "seem to have taken a negative stand on the last proposal by the three institutions, and basically reject those proposals."

"That is a very sad decision, because the door in our mind was still open to finalize talks,” Dijsselbloem also said to reporters in Brussels before a meeting of euro-area finance ministers. "And now, given their decision, they are now proposing to hold a referendum, again with the negative advice to the Greek people, and that is a very sad situation."

"We will hear from the Greek minister today whether all of this is correct, whether we understand that correct, and then we will talk about the consequences that will have."

Of course, no response would be possible without the German finmin Schauble pouring the usual glass of cold water on the face of Greece and he did so promptly when he said that "we no longer have a basis for negotiation."

“We actually came today to try to negotiate a unified position with Greece, but the Greek government, if I understand it correctly, has unilaterally ended the negotiations. We have to look at what the situation is. The program ends on June 30. We know the situation with the Greek banks. That’s an issue of talks between Greece and the ECB. But we’ll also discuss that. But right now we have to discuss everything, that’s why we’ve agreed to meet this afternoon."

On the question of Plan B: “What does Plan B mean? The negotiations have been abandonded by Greece, the negotiating table. So we’re in a situation in which the program ends Tuesday, because there’s no other negotiations on anything else."

There was a brief comic interlude when the Slovenian finmin Peter Kazimir responded to what he expects from Yanis Varoufakis saying "more lecturing" before making it also clear that if the Greek government rejects the proposal, which it effectively has done with the referendum, then the "programme is over."

But the biggest problem for Greece was phrased as follows by an unnamed EU official cited by Bloomberg who said that Euro-area finance ministers are unlikely to extend Greece’s aid program while Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras considers a referendum adding that "some nations won’t accept such an extension."

Belgian finmin Van Overtveldt confirmed as much saying that "we don’t have three weeks, but three days. So that is something that everybody and the Greek government should be aware of. They have wasted so much time in the last weeks and now we have come to the point that we have just three days left. We can no longer prolong whatever action we want to take, because June 30 is there, it is very much there. June 30 is the end of the program. We will have to decide on issues today." Alas, that is now impossible as per the events Greece has set in motion.

When asked about a possible extension of the Greek program beyond June 30, Van Overtveldt says: “I don’t think so.”

And so we reach the massive problem facing the Greek people and the way the referendum is proposed: because it takes place 5 days after the June 30 expiration of the extended bailout program, there won't be an actual program to "refer" on, especially once Europe makes it clear today that unless a deal is reached today, which now appears impossible, then there won't even be the offer of a program on July 5.

As a reminder, this is what the Greeks would be voting for: according to the cabinet proposal, posted on the parliament’s website, voters will be asked to respond to the following question:

Greek people are hereby asked to decide whether they accept a draft agreement document submitted by the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund, at the Eurogroup meeting held on June 25 and which consists of two documents:

The first document is called ‘‘Reforms for the Completion of the Current Program and Beyond’’ and the second document is called ‘‘Preliminary Debt Sustainability Analysis.’’

- Those citizens who reject the institutions’ proposal vote Not Approved / NO

- Those citizens who accept the institutions’ proposal vote Approved / YES.



Sure enough moments ago Varoufakis was quoted as saying he would ask the Eurogroup for a bailout extension of a few weeks to accommodate the referendum.

And the punchline: if the Eurogroup says "Oxi", then the entire Greek gambit, which has been a bet that to Europe the opportunity cost of a Grexit is higher than folding to Greek demands, collapses.

If the Eurogroup declines Varoufakis' request, there simply can not be a referendum, as the "institutions proposal" will no longer be on the table. As such, the only question is whether the ECB will also end the ELA at midnight on June 30, adding insult to injury, and causing the collapse of the Greek banking system days ahead of a referendum whose purpose would now be moot.

But that would be suicide to the European project, as it sets the Grexit in play and with that the "European Union" becomes nothing more than Disunion and moving the crisis away from Greece to Italy, Spain and Portugal, the Greek game theorists would say, claiming that to the ECB this is the worst possible outcome?

After all even the former Greek prime minister, George Papandreou, who lost his job threatening to do just the referendum which Tsipras announced yesterday, came to twitter to blast the decision and saying it is irreversible.

Well, not really.

Recall what we said last week in "Goldman's "Conspiracy Theory" Stunner: A Greek Default Is Precisely What The ECB Wants" which we urge everyone to reread, especially those who think that the ECB and thus Troika, will cave to any last minute Greek demands. Because a Grexit, at least according to Goldman, may be just what Mario Draghi wanted all along, and the only question is who ends up getting the blame for Grexident. Conveniently, with the referendum announcement, Greece blinked in the game of blame, and now Europe can legitimately say it was the Greek's fault and they kicked themselves out of the Eurozone, which will then be a green light for the ECB to expand its QE, crush the Euro, and - supposedly - lead to even more growth for Europe as Greece is left to fend for itself outside of the monetary union.

All this, of course, assuming the Greeks do vote No on the referendum. And even if they vote Yes, which is a distinct possibility based on recent polls, it may already be too late, as it will unleash a political crisis even more delays and gridlock, new elections, and even more misery from inside the Eurozone. Assuming, of course, that the Troika will agree to have Greece back, without Syriza in power of course.

In any event, going forward the Greeks will only have themselves to blame for whatever the final outcome is. That, and the Greek tragicomedy which has now lasted for over 5 years, may finally be over.

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Sunday, June 28, 2015 2:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And the troika intercepts.

Eurozone Rejects Greek Bailout Extension: All Bailout Programs Expire On June 30, Referendum Moot
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-27/eurozone-rejects-greek-bailou
t-extension




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Sunday, July 5, 2015 11:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


For the past who-knows-how-many-years, Greeks have been living in a dream world. Since 2001, when Greece entered the Euro on the basis of cooked books (Goldman Sachs helped them hide their debt) through the winter Olympics in 2010, Greece has been living on borrowed money, and they were happy. (The closest analogy I can think of is Iceland. In 2008, it was polled as the happiest nation in the world. Of course, their total debt was 3X their GDP.)

Since the crash, Greece has been "saved" from bankruptcy three or four times by the intervention of The Troika (IMF, ECB, EC) ... allowed to drown just a little, then yanked up from the watery pit at the last moment with another bailout payment, attached to which were "austerity" measures (which caused the Greek economy to plummet).

I think Greeks in general have been conditioned to associated the Euro with pleasure, and then with rescue; and to think that they would forever be able to nestle - paying penance, but nestle nonetheless- in the armpit of the eurozone.

Which is why when Syriza ran and won, they won on the entirely unrealistic proposition that they could fulfill two contradictory promises at the same time: An end to austerity, and continued inclusion in the eurozone.

Now, some Greeks are finally (finally!) realizing that they were living in a pipe dream, that the Troika is not some benevolent uncle but a group of cold bankers, and the day of hard choices is upon them. The person who writes as a 21-year-old can barely remember a day NOT in the eurozone, since Greek entry would have happened when s/he was 7 years old. The future is a great unknown.

Quote:

Sir,

Memory. No memory of life before the financial crisis; politics has dominated it ever since. But now I can hardly remember life before Friday night.

Fear. I am terrified of tomorrow, all I now see is black. Uncertainty, leading us through our days, every remainder of hope for a brighter future being destroyed by the minute. I look at my three-year-old niece, I envy her ignorance, I envy her age. I am 21 years old and the past few days I feel tired by life. A referendum that supposedly gives me the right to define my future, seems to have taken it away.

There are hundreds of people queueing at the ATMs and petrol stations, there is silence in the streets, people’s faces are frozen. This is the reality since Friday night. There are, and have been for a long time, people literally starving. However, it seems that instead of their situation improving, the rest of us will have no different a fate.

Families and friends divide in Yes and No camps. We are called to exercise our democratic right by voting on a referendum while having no tangible explanation of what will follow each decision. I see everyone I know ready to take this huge responsibility without even being prepared to do so. I notice us, arguing endlessly, everyone supporting their stance fervently, ego dominating minds and words, while having no clue as to what is really at stake.

We all want the crisis to end, we all crave growth and happiness. I do not remember my parents being free of stress and anxiety in the past years. I do not remember not noticing shops closing every month, or the rapid increase of beggars in the streets. People that, before the financial crisis, never had to beg for anything. However, the past five days have been worse than all that has been so far. They say that all we hear is propaganda; but we have lost our trust in all sides, now everything seems to be lies.

It feels like an end. The end of our lives as we knew them. Yes, the lives that, before Friday, we already thought could be better; now we realise they were better then. The only thing we truly wish for is that the worst is not yet to come.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-04/21-year-old-greek-unloads-i-a
m-terrified-tomorrowit-feels-end


Confusingly (to English-speakers), OXI means NO, and NAI means YES.


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Sunday, July 5, 2015 11:44 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And in the meantime, there seems to be some tussling between Germany and the IMF.

Quote:

Euro zone countries tried in vain to stop the IMF publishing a gloomy analysis of Greece's debt burden which the leftist government says vindicates its call to voters to reject bailout terms, sources familiar with the situation said on Friday.

The document released in Washington on Thursday said Greece's public finances will not be sustainable without substantial debt relief, possibly including write-offs by European partners of loans guaranteed by taxpayers.

It also said Greece will need at least 50 billion euros in additional aid over the next three years to keep itself afloat.

Publication of the draft Debt Sustainability Analysis laid bare a dispute between Brussels and the Washington-based global lender that has been simmering behind closed doors for months. ...

t a meeting on the International Monetary Fund's board on Wednesday, European members questioned the timing of the report which IMF management proposed at short notice releasing three days before Sunday's crucial referendum that may determine the country's future in the euro zone, the sources said.

There was no vote but the Europeans were heavily outnumbered and the United States, the strongest voice in the IMF, was in favor of publication, the sources said.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-eurozone-greece-imf-idUSK
CN0PD20120150703


Christine Lagard (IMF) has been the spoiler so far. It's almost as if the IMF wants Greece to exit, which would mean that the USA wants Greece to exit.

With the anti-Russian sanctions hurting Europeans businesses far more than they hurt the USA, and the EU having to deal with two bankrupt nations (one in civil war thanks to USA "help") it looks as if the USA is determined to sacrifice the EU economy and the euro currency in favor of its own agenda (whatever that is. So far, it seems to be "nation destruction".) One interpretation that I read which sticks in my mind is that the USA wants to destroy other currencies so that it will be the dominant remaining currency. (I know for sure the USA tried to destroy the ruble, and they seem to be doing a good job grinding down the euro, while Japan is killing its yen all by itself, thank you.) You'd think the Europeans would get wise to the fact that the USA doesn't exactly have their interests at heart.



Ultimately, it doesn't matter if the Greeks vote "yes" in today's election, because Greece will be back in the same situation six months from now, when they can't pay the IMF (again).

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Sunday, July 5, 2015 4:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I've read so many contradictory stories about the 'troika' - each one of them has been reported at some point to have been in favor of a haircut - or not. So as I see it, this is how it goes despite the blah blah people have been reported to have said: It's been a known fact for some time that Greece could never be able to pay the debt back, no matter what conditions were imposed, unless investors took a 'haircut'. So the 'troika' had a choice to make: keep Greece in and write off debt, or let it go and potentially destabilize the EU. (Though, as far as I can tell, since the EU is a voluntary association maintained by mutual agreement, any country is free to leave at any time.)

As far as I'm concerned, in terms of international finance, the cost of keeping Greece in is trivial, if you assume governments will step in and make the banks whole. After all, what's less than a billion when you're willing to spend over a thousand times more on a pointless war over non-existent WMDs in vast amounts of sand? Or pour twelve thousand times more into banks and investment firms to keep them from going under? So the cost of keeping Greece in is supportable. Therefore, the 'troika's' imposition of entirely unacceptable terms, and the intransigence over the write-offs, is nothing else than a political decision on the part of the governments.

I'm guessing that THEY'RE thinking a Grexit will leave the drawn and quartered* Greek economy at the Euro gates as a lesson for all. Stay and be slowly but ultimately bled to death on EU/ (US) terms, or leave and die sooner and horribly. Catastrophically, and with fatal economic pain for masses of real people.

As far as I can tell, the only country benefiting economically is Germany. Maybe that's the soto voce agreement for Germany pitting its economy against Russia's.

With any luck Greece will find a sane Russia willing to invest enough to keep it from sinking into the hell that is Ukraine, and not be quite the lesson the US imagines.

* fastened to a hurdle, or wooden panel, and drawn by horse to the place of execution, hanged almost to the point of death, emasculated, disembowelled, beheaded and quartered - chopped into four pieces




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, July 6, 2015 1:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, as KIKI alluded to, Greeks voted NO to the EU proposal (which was withdrawn before the referendum anyway.) It looked as if Greeks were getting a little weak in the knees, if the polls were correct, but perhaps the vote was swung to NO by the IMF report (which the EU desperately tried to suppress.) I still haven't figured out why; I'll have to watch what the IMF does now.

The EU did everything it could to swing the vote to YES. But with such bad grace, they probably did more damage to their cause than good. The European Parliament President Schulz
Quote:

told German daily Handelsblatt that the elected Syriza government should be replaced by “technocrat” government until stability is restored.


Well! So much for democracy! Eh, Herr Schulz?

And right before the referendum, Schulz said:
Quote:

“Without new money, salaries won’t be paid, the health system will stop functioning, the power network and public transport will break down and they won’t be able to import vital goods because nobody can pay”


---------
Or, as Zerohdge posted

Quote:

Theoretically if not all Greeks, at least these above mentioned could file a lawsuit against the President of the EP for violating his post’s “neutrality”, “for blatant intervention in internal political and fiscal affairs of a sovereign country” – how much more as the EP is not part for the creditors’ three-institutions – and for “causing moral damage and psychological distress” to at least several million Greek citizens.


Poor Merkel! Her fourth Reich is falling apart!

Brussels and Merkel aren't going to take this lying down, no siree! I'm sure that the EU will stir up as much trouble as possible to make Greece a negative example for the rest of the upstart political parties (Podemos in Spain, Five Star in Italy, and National Front in France). Maybe even an attempted color revolution!



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Friday, July 10, 2015 8:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Tsipras Sells Out Referendum 'No' Vote Ahead Of Weekend Deadline

Quote:

"We got a mandate to bring a better deal than the ultimatum that the Eurogroup gave us, but certainly not given a mandate to take Greece out of the eurozone,” Greek PM Alexis Tsipras reportedly told Syriza lawmakers on Friday, underscoring the fact that his government’s mandate is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to achieve.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-10/tsipras-sells-out-referendum-
no-vote-ahead-weekend-deadline


Well, it was from the start. Tsipras mis-judged the tenor of Germany: For a variety of historical (past experience with hyperinflation), geopolitical (southern European dominoes falling) and financial (German banks) reasons, there was no way that Merkel was going to bend, or in fact COULD bend. And yet, for a variety of cultural and historic reasons (Greece having enjoyed the benefits of the euro for so long, and having been bailed out several times before) Greeks believed they were in a privileged position that they could, in fact, have both the euro and a reduction in austerity.

The key signal that Tsipras was going to fold was that he didn't appear to have a credible Plan B. I couldn't tell if Plan B wasn't evident because it was a really well-kept government secret, or if one simply didn't exist. At this point, it appears as if the only plan was "hard negotiations with the EU".

What will happen, I expect, is that in return for slitting his wrists on the altar of the German (Finnish, Belgian etc) banks, Tsipras will be rewarded with Euros once again flowing to the Greek banks. But unless they restructure the debt, Greece will be back in the same spot six months from now, so the key question is whether there will be enough (if any) debt-restructuring to keep Greece from having to borrow even MORE money to pay its debts.

This is a lesson for the Greeks and all of southern Europe, although it may not be the lesson that Merkel intended. ONE of the lessons that may be drawn is that the EU is not the benevolent union that the Greeks believed it was. I've been frustrated watching the paradigm that the Greeks believed in - a kind of "cake and eat it too" belief - that they could remain in the eurozone and avoid austerity. Doods, it was either one or the other, not both. It was always going to be either capitulation or exit. Without a practical exit plan, only one choice was left.


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Saturday, July 11, 2015 1:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SYRIZA GOVERNMENT DOES WHAT ALL PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS IN GREECE DID WITH THE DEBT

Quote:

Early on Saturday morning, the Tsipras government passed the Greek bailout proposal which it told the Greek people to reject - which they did - less than a week earlier. The grotesque farce continued until the very end when 15 Syriza lawmakers who voted yes said they nonetheless are against the reform package and expressed their opposition to the government’s proposal in a joint statement issued immediately after the vote in parliament.

Seemingly unclear how this "democracy" thing works in the country that supposedly invented it only to spawn its biggest mutant yet, the "dissenters" added that they voted for the proposal in order not to give an excuse for the undermining of Alexis Tsipras government. What they really meant is what the angry people finally crack down on yet another government, they hope to have a get out of jail card. Literally.

Other were far more vocal in their condemnation of the capitulation: Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, Deputy Labour Minister Dimitris Stratoulis as well as the speaker of parliament, Zoe Constantopoulou, all called "Present", in effect abstaining from the vote and withholding their support from the government. "The government is being totally blackmailed to acquiesce to something which does not reflect what it represents," Constantopoulou said.



Apparently in Greece voting, demonstrating, and even rioting doesn't count. The government will ignore the people and pay attention to the banks instead. (Hmmm...sounds familiar! "Occupy" and "Tea Party", anyone?) However, even the submitted Greek plan (which was acceptable to Germany just two weeks ago) is no longer acceptable.

A faction in Germany (looking at YOU, Schauble!) is aiming for Grexit, no matter what Greece agrees to.

Quote:

... the Troika told Eurozone governments that proposals from Greece for a bailout loan are a basis for negotiation, an EU official said on Saturday...
Of course, nobody doubted that the proposal which falls back to what the Troika itself submitted two weeks ago, would be the "basis" for talks. The question is what the final draft will look like.

And it is here that the Troika will surely make Greek life a living hell as it returns with demands that force the government to shortly vote on a "deal" that has far greater austerity embedded in it.

First, Germany's Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung reported that Greece’s international creditors view the country’s reform proposals as insufficient to meet agreed budget surplus targets, citing assessment paper provided to euro-area finance ministers by the Troika. FAS adds that the "new plan insufficient in light of "significant deterioration of macro economic and financial conditions" in Greece. As a reminder, Greece hopes to achieve a 2015 surplus target of 1% in 2015 rising to 3.5% by 2018. This is not going to happen and everyone in Europe knows this.


The Netherlands, Finland, and Austria are also hardline Greek creditors, and likely to vote along Schauble's line when the council meets this weekend. According to this article, you can add Estonia and Ireland to the mix of skeptical/irate finance ministers. What they seem to want to add is greater "accountability" because- according to them- Greece simply hasn't implemented enough austerity in the past.

Quote:

Considering that as part of its Third bailout proposal [2011, 2012, and ... 2015?] Greece promised to implement reforms pledged in 2010, one can see why Europe is skeptical this isn't just another ploy by the Greeks to have the banks reopened so the depositors can withdraw the remaining money and then pull the plug on Europe once more.

And then, moments ago Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan said the Greece’s bailout request probably needs extra measures and proof that it can be implemented, adding
most importantly that "the Greek paper was silent on banking" which as we noted yesterday will require another €10-20 billion bailout.

But the most interesting narrative is developing within Germany itself where Bild repeated what we said about the view split between Merkel and Schauble, reporting that "a power struggle is brewing between German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble" over how to proceed with Greece. Bild said that it was Merkel who out of consideration for EU partners, especially France, backs new talks with Greece, while Schaeuble regards Greek reform proposals as "inadequate" and opposes further negotiations. ...



Nonetheless, if EUROFIN insists on even greater austerity and further "reforms" in Greece, the Greek economy will fall even further, and make it even LESS likely that Greece will be able to repay its debts. Not only that, but imposing even further sacrifices on the Greek people is likely to lead to an outright revolt by the population.

Quote:

But one thing that is certain: according to Dow Jones, as part of its Bailout Number 3, Greece will need €74 billion in fresh funding (i.e. debt), citing the Troika, of which €16 billion would come from the IMF.

Which means that Greek debt, already at 175% of GDP...


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-11/troika-says-greek-proposal-no
t-enough-meet-targets-serves-basis-negotiations


Furthermore, this "extend (loans) and pretend (that Greece can pay them back)" strategy only increases Greece's debt. The closest analogy to what Germany et al are doing to Greece is what Europe did to Germany before WWII... insist on endless unpayable reparations. Curiously, Germany seems to forget that it was given complete debt forgiveness after WWII.

Greece is bankrupt. Kaput. Stick a fork in it. Stop trying to wring blood from a stone. I can't imagine why Germany, Finland, etc can't see the obvious.

Here is an excellent background article on why Greece is where it is

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/6/8900659/greek-crisis-blame

However, they forgot to blame Goldman Sachs.


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Sunday, July 12, 2015 1:57 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


TSIPRAS WILL BEND OVER, AND THEN THE EU WILL NEGOTIATE THE MONEY THAT HE GETS FOR BEING SCREWED

That's my impolitely-phrased version of headlines that I expect to see by Wednesday. And, of course, without a credible Plan B Tsipras will have no choice, otherwise the banks won't re-open.

The interesting thing, I was looking into one specific provision (improve competitiveness following the Toolkit I provisions about labor "reform" and "regulation") and I got the impression that the issue that the Eurogroup is attempting to address isn't "too much regulation" (that, from one of the most tightly-regulated trade zones in the world, where toilet-seat heights and bathtub thicknesses are delineated to factional millimeters, all in the name of "harmonization"!). No, the REAL issue seems to be "corruption": When you get a job because your dad knows the mayor, or a contract because you have an "in" with the City Council.

Italy, I understand, is the same. I remember hearing a story about a man who tried to start a business in an Italian city, and he had to meet some phenomenal number of codes, regulations, requirements, and permits ... over 180, as I recall. Many of those regulations are holdovers from former times, or duplicative of national or eurozone regulations. But at almost every hurdle was a bureaucrat with their hand discreetly held out, to "smooth the process". In fact, the impression that I was left with was that nobody rationalized that bag of snakes because it was oh-so-profitable for the city and the city officials. And THAT was necessary because of the allergy that southern Europeans have to paying taxes according to some sort of rational tax code.

It seems to me that rather than attack the problem indirectly under the guise of "competitiveness", and impose a set of solutions that won't really solve the problem (and in fact make the economy worse-off) the Eurozone would have done better to tackle - or at least mention- the problem directly.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 7:51 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


From my (admittedly limited) understanding, the issues around this broadly are: there was no agreement on fiscal management within the EU, thus you have enormous differences in the way finances are managed and used, secondly there was only provision for prosperity, no contigency plan for if things go wrong. Another case of financial markets being overly optimisitic. Thirdly, no provision for exiting, that one is pretty hotel california in my view.

An interesting learning experience for all. I think a lot of countries were allowed into the EU that were not in a financial/political state to do so and there is where the problem lies...

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Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:59 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Now that all of the parties have gone thru their negotiating steps, their cards are (mostly) laid bare.

There is no such thing as a "EU" position, as the EU was widely split on the issue. It turns out that Schauble was indeed the (German) driving force for a Grexit, and he still is. For Schauble, this is a visceral hatred of Greece and everything it stands for. No amount of "re-profiling" the debt would do, let alone an investor haircut. A number of other creditor nations (mostly northern European) wouldn't have been too sad to see Greece go either. France, Italy, and other EU nations were on the softer side, willing to "extend and pretend".

There wasn't a "Greek" position either. Yanis Varoufakis (former Greek Finance Minister) had been pushing (behind the scenes, and unsuccessfully) to implement a "Plan B" Gexit, while Tsipras (PM) under no conditions would consider it. Which hobbled the Greek's negotiating leverage considerably, especially when the EU refused to resupply Greek banks with cash Euros.

And there wasn't even a "bank" position. While the European Central bank (ECB) is willing to "extend and pretend", the IMF itself is vehemently against it, and attempted to torpedo any agreement along those lines by strategic release of internal reports. In the IMF's view, only a significant write-down of Greek debt would make it sustainable.

A few things to note here:

The agreement only supplies Greek banks with emergency cash, so far. As much as I've read of how this is trending, the Greeks will NEVER be able to repay it. The IMF is correct. In six months, Greece will be once again in arrears to any number of creditors. Grexit, and Schauble, will rear their heads again.

Germany (Schauble) and the USA (IMF) have come to a significant parting of the ways on this issue. Germany "won" this round, altho Schauble would have really preferred a Grexit. (But that would have brought Greece's NATO membership into question, and the USA couldn't have that.)

The most interesting thing about this is just watching WHO has to approve the deal.

The Greek Parliament, for sure.
The EU FinMins, certainly.
But I noticed that this had to be approved by the German Parliament as well, but no other national Parliament.
Why?
Isn't this saying that there's no "EU", only Germany counts?
And although the IMF is integral to the deal, the IMF doesn't get a chance to naysay it either.
Hmmm...

Quote:

In a rare convergence of Greek and German viewpoints, overnight former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis told the BBC that "economic reforms imposed on his country by creditors are "going to fail", ahead of talks on a huge bailout. At the same time, Germany's most noted Eurosceptic, Hans-Werner Sinn, in an interview with the newspaper "Passauer Neue Presse" also earlier today warned that any new aid would be "totally worthless" and "would never come back."

In what was practically a race who can find harsher terms to describe the Greek bailout, Varoufakis said that Greece was subject to a programme that will "go down in history as the greatest disaster of macroeconomic management ever".

As reported yesterday, the German parliament approved the opening of negotiations of Greece's third €86 billion bailout when it rushed to vote through a bridge loan to Greece so the insolvent nation had some funds to repay the ECB's Monday debt maturity, as well as repay the roughly €2 billion for Greece is in default to the IMF. Of note was the jump in German MPs who voted "no" to 119 from just 32 in the February vote to extend the Greek bailout.

In a damning assessment, Varoufakis told the BBC's Mark Lobel: "This programme is going to fail whoever undertakes its implementation."

Asked how long that would take, he replied: "It has failed already."

He also said Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who has admitted that he does not believe in the bailout, had little option but to sign. "We were given a choice between being executed and capitulating. And he decided that capitulation was the ultimate strategy."

Which also happens to be Varoufakis' biggest failure: his strategy was accurate and his math was correct that to Europe a Grexit would be far more expensive than keeping Greece in the Euro, however Europe was just as accurate in realizing Greece has no Plan B for its banking system as Greece had never prepared either a plan for a parallel currency nor how to obtain Debtor in Possession funding, which is what a bankrupt Greece would need - ostensibly either from China or Russia - to fund it in the interim period in which it was ending its tumultuous relationship with Europe.

Understandably Greece did not want to push the Grexit line too hard for obvious reasons - it was all part of the "blame game" - however now that Germany itself has opened a Pandora's box it can't close ever again when it brought up the possibility of a temporary Grexit, Greece should most certainly prepare for the worst case the next time it has to rerun the entire bailout tragedy in 6-9 months, or perhaps sooner.

However, none of this will be Varoufakis' problem any more - instead we hope his successor learns from Yanis' mistakes. And speaking of his successors, late yesterday Tsipras has announced a cabinet reshuffle, sacking several ministers who voted against the reforms in parliament this week. But he opted not to bring in technocrats or opposition politicians as replacements.

As a result, it now seems that Tsipras will preside over ministers who, like himself, harbor serious doubts about the reform program. Which is why we truly hope they are prepared to implement the missing Plan B when the time comes next.

Finally, in what is perhaps the best anecdote about Greece right now, AFP reported that "embattled Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras eats and sleeps poorly and rarely manages to see his family, his mother told a tabloid on Saturday."

"Alexis lately does not eat, does not sleep, but he has no choice -- he has a debt to the people who put their faith in him," Aristi Tsipras, 73, told Parapolitika weekly.

"I rarely see him any more. He goes from the airport straight to parliament. He has no time to see his children, how can he see me?" Aristi Tsipras said.

"When we speak, I tell him to do the best for the country and take care of himself. He tells me not to worry, and that everything will be fine," she said.

Unfortunately it won't be, however that will only be revealed when not only the PM can "no longer eat or sleep", but the entire country of Greece, too.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-18/varoufakis-slams-bailout-3-gr
eatest-macroeconomic-disaster-history-while-tsipras-doe


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Friday, August 21, 2015 1:35 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:


Greece crisis: Syriza rebels form new party

Rebels from Greece's governing left-wing Syriza are to break away and form a new party.

Prime Minister and Syriza leader Alexis Tsipras stood down on Thursday, paving the way for new elections. The move came after he lost the support of many of his own MPs in a vote on the country's new bailout with European creditors earlier this month.

Greek media reports say 25 rebel Syriza MPs will join the new party, called Laiki Enotita (Popular Unity). The party will be led by former energy minister Panagiotis Lafazanis, who was strongly opposed to the bailout deal. At a press conference in Athens, Mr Lafazanis said he was ready to respect the result of a referendum held in July, in which 61% of Greeks said they would not support the terms of the bailout.

"If it is necessary for us to cancel the memorandum, we will follow the course of exiting the euro," he is quoted by Kathimerini newspaper as saying.
'Eurozone dictatorship'

Syriza won 149 seats in Greece's 300-seat parliament in the last election in January. The conservative New Democracy party came second, with 76 seats. The new Popular Unity party becomes the third largest in parliament.

25 votes, while significant, is too small to do anything unless this party can create a coalition with another party.

Quote:

In exchange for a new €86bn ($95bn; £61bn) from European partners, Mr Tsipras had to agree to painful state sector cuts, including far-reaching pension reforms - and keep Greece in the eurozone.

Close to a third of Syriza's MPs abstained or voted against the terms of the new deal last week. At the time, Mr Lafazanis said he was determined to "smash the eurozone dictatorship".

What is Laiki Enotita (Popular Unity)? The new left-wing party has 25 rebel Syriza MPs, who object to Mr Tsipras's acceptance of more austerity. Its leader, Panagiotis Lafazanis, argues that Greece would be better off leaving the euro and going back to the drachma.

What are Mr Tsipras's chances of re-election? Despite his dramatic policy reversal over austerity - an opinion poll last month gave him a 61% approval rating.

On the other hand, polls gave the "YES" vote in the EU bailout referendum the same odds, and yet the vote was overwhelmingly "NO" (60%). So I'm not sure hoe reliable the polls are.

Quote:

If elections are set for 20 September that deadline gives the new rival left-wing party very little time to organise and rally support to fight Mr Tsipras. Many observers expect him to be re-elected, with a stronger mandate to push through the reforms demanded by the creditors.
That is Tsipras' plan, and that's why it's a "snap" election. But the former government (Samaras) had the same idea, and he was voted out. So - the plan doesn't always work.

Quote:

How are people reacting to the latest developments?
Greece's eurozone lenders are being cautious. The chair of the Eurogroup (the eurozone finance ministers), Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said "it's crucial that Greece maintain its commitments to the eurozone".

Voters are also worried. One Athens resident told Reuters: "We will go through a period of insecurity and this is, of course, not the best thing to happen right now."

What next for Greece?
On Friday morning, the head of conservative New Democracy party, Vangelis Meimarakis, met Greece's president and he will now have three days to form a government.

Observers say he does not have enough support and elections will be called. Reports suggest the election - the fifth in six years - will be called for 20 September. If Mr Meimarakis fails to form a government, the chance will be given to the new party, analysts say, and then the far-right Golden Dawn party. They, too, are unlikely to be able to gain enough allies to establish a government. All parties can waive the right to negotiate and allow the president to approve a snap election. Mr Meimarakis, however, has said he will try and use his mandate to form a government in the next few days.

Dimitris Stratoulis, one of the new members of Popular Unity, told Reuters that his party would also try to use the mandate and put a government together.

Well, Syriza has finally split along the lines that divided it. Syriza was really an "umbrella" party ... a kind of label for a diversity of interests which allowed party members to formally meet the minimum threshold for a seat in Parliament. However, it was never unified and its platform - avoid austerity AND stay in the eurozone - was impossible.


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, May 29, 2017 2:31 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Greece will avoid default after bailout deal – but faces more austerity

Unions vow strike action after leftist-led government agrees to further slash pensions and cut tax breaks...

The breakthrough [in talks with the Troika] after marathon 12-hour talks, became apparent only when the Greek finance minister, Euclid Tsakalotos, announced in the small hours that “white smoke” had been achieved. “There is white smoke … The negotiation is finished with agreement on all the issues,” he said. “We now have a decision that the Greek government will be called to enforce with laws and decisions. [AND POLICE AND MILITARY- SIGNY]”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/02/greece-bailout-deal-aust
erity-strike-pensions-tax-breaks



Well, seven years in and the Troika - and Germany especially- are STILL waterboarding Greece.

The last event was rejecting the possibility that the Greek government might be forgiven part of its debt, in return for (YET ANOTHER) loan to keep the old loans floating!

Germany said "Nein", and that was that. German banks will insist on squeezing every last penny possible out of the Greek people until a revolt occurs.

In another thread, KIKI said that the Greek people have submitted without protest, that they laid their neck bare to the austerity measures that are required to make sure that German, Finnish, and Dutch banks (and bankers) remain whole. In disagreement, I posted a bunch of articles about violent protests that occur regularly in Greece, with more sure to follow.

Grinding poverty and unemployment are still widespread in Greece. Almost ten years of "austerity" - mandated in undemocratic fashion by outside banking interests - haven't revived the economy. Because they weren't meant to.

But the protests might be becoming more pointed:

Quote:

Greek Ex-Prime Minister Hurt as Letter Bomb Explodes in Car
Former Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos was injured after a letter bomb exploded inside his car in a central Athens, an attack that also left two Bank of Greece employees wounded.


https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2017-05-25/greek-ex-premier
-lucas-papademos-wounded-in-athens-bombing


TO ANYONE WHO HAS FOLLOWED THE IMF PLAYBOOK IN BRAZIL AND ELSEWHERE, THIS IS NOT NEWS.

The only difference is that international banks are not able to exploit third world countries any more, and so they are working their way in from the periphery.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Monday, May 29, 2017 2:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Quote:

The only difference is that international banks are not able to exploit third world countries any more, and so they are working their way in from the periphery.
And people wonder why the US economy has been a shambling zombie since 2008 - nether quite dead, nor quite alive ... with the chances of being restored to full life close to zero.




Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

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