REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What would you keep, what would you change?

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Saturday, July 2, 2022 08:15
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Thursday, February 20, 2014 12:52 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig posted in another thread:
Quote:

Specifically, I'd like to know which aspects of the USA you think are worth keeping, which ones you'd like to change, and how far is "too far" in terms of change in the USA.

She suggested we start a new thread, so I'm game, we'll see if it goes anywhere. Here's my contribution:

I guess I'd start, for one thing, with redistricting, that's a real biggie for me. The parties should never be in charge of it. If we changed just that, I think we'd at least have a more representative form of government, tho' it wouldn't make a gigantic difference.

Term limits--for ALL government offices. I watched our Willie Brown control this state for decades from various offices, and it taught me a lot. It's a two-edged sword, unquestionably, because it takes time to accomplish anything in government, but the way it is now doesn't work very well.

Election reform, that's a biggie. The 501c-3 thing is a travesty; thus far JUST money hasn't been enough to buy everything, but given time, it'll just get worse. There's a lot more to election reform, but that would be a start.

Lifetime appointments to the Supreme Court. Another double-edged sword, but one that, the way it's become now, is really screwing us. And the involvement of Supreme Court Justices in politics, which is wayyyy out of hand right now.

Lobbyists, and the revolving door of politics/lobbying. None of these would be easy to fix, even if there was the will to do so, and I don't know how they could be fixed, but they're working against us as a country.

Organizations like ALEC being able to dictate to politicians. NO idea how you fix something like that, but the way it is now, with them WRITING our fucking laws, is abominable.

A real biggie for me--and you can't "make" it happen, would be more than just the two-party system. I think more VIABLE parties with power would go a ways toward improving what's happening today.

That's off the top of my head, nothing more, and I haven't the vaguest idea how to change any of that, all I've done for years is just try to bring things to peoples' attention, I don't know what more can be done.

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 1:14 PM

CHRISISALL


Take money out of politics- all candidates get free air time equally, get a European healthcare system & forget all this private medicine/Obamacare junk.

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:36 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

what would you change?


...



EVERYTHING

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:39 PM

WISHIMAY


I done that already...

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=11&tid=56659&mid=9
53794#953794


I've thought of a dozen others since then, but I can't 'member them now...

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 4:02 PM

CHRISISALL


I would make "V For Vendetta" required viewing for all Americans.

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 8:18 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Wish, thank you for that link. It was interesting...I liked quite a bit of what you had to say.

My first question, tho', was "who is Gwek and how do we get him/her into RWED?" A lot of it was silly, but I saw some of the same impulses from several people. I just liked what Gwek had to say:
Quote:

I respectfully disagree about a lack of thought going on on Election Day. There are multiple factors in play. One is that our system is not supposed to change easily, so there are a ton of checks and balanced to keep things "neutral."

Another issue is that many local voting lines have been gerrymandered into ridiculousless, subverting the will of the people. For example, in the 2012 House elections, Democrats got more votes (approximately 49% to 48% -- but remember, on the national stage, a 1% swing IS decisive), yet Republicans still hold a 54% to 46% advantage in terms of seats.

Does that seem right to you?

Fact is, we live in an unprecedented era of ungentlemanly lack of compromise. (You already know this to be true if you are liberal/Dem and have hit "reply" to support me, or if you are conservative/Rep and hit "reply" to tell me how wrong I am).

People tend to forget that Obama spent the better part of his first year or two in office trying to reach across the aisle, only to have his hand slapped away repeatedly by Congressmen with a STATED top priority of making sure that he would't be reelected. Although politicians (on both sides) are generally egotistical and of questional ethics, in my lifetime I've never seen it instititionalized and accepted on such a horrifying scale.

In days gone by, we would not have seen this ridiculous crusade to bring down The Affordable Care Act, because, guess what? If polled on what it accomplishes, a majority of Americans support it. A majority of self-reported REPUBLICANS support it. Something of this scale takes fine-tuning to get right (and anyone with any ounce of common sense knew it wasn't going to come out of the game perfect), yet rather than try to fix it, one party is dedicated to destroying it... simply because the other party created it.


Just found it interesting.


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Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:14 PM

BYTEMITE


GWEK IS MY NEMESIS! Along with dozens of other people. He also used to write one of the more popular firefly episode fanfic series.

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Thursday, February 20, 2014 9:59 PM

OONJERAH



"Firefly" is stillflying.net! by Gwek
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=2&tid=16588#231422

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Friday, February 21, 2014 2:19 AM

SHINYGOODGUY


That's the way to go............


SGG


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Take money out of politics- all candidates get free air time equally, get a European healthcare system & forget all this private medicine/Obamacare junk.


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Friday, February 21, 2014 1:17 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Lesseee...

Corporate Personhood - first and foremost, that's gotta go.

Alphabet goons - gone, replaced with an observation ONLY group reporting directly to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and strictly limited to passive collection while being open at every point to public scrutiny.

Deployment of US Armed Forces outside our borders for any purpose other than embassy security - verboten.

Socialize the friggin healthcare system, basing initially on the existing Medicare infrastructure, yes, it's crap, but the foundation is there and can be built on - and its expansion would handily employ a lot of people who'd be displaced from existing employment with the rapacious private enterprise cretins.

That's just a quick four off the top, but even THAT would be such a substantial improvement as to be immeasurable.

-F

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Friday, February 21, 2014 3:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I would rewrite the law defining corporations... and define them out of existence. (Remember, the only reason we have corporations is because they're allowed and defined by law.) Every business entity would become a cooperative, where everyone who worked in it would become a part-owner.

Too big to fail banks, which are corporate entities? poof! (Credit unions are in fact owned by their depositors, so credit unions would continue.)
Corporate control of the media! POOF!
Corporate control of the internet? poof!
The stock market, that effing casino of speculation? POOF!
Insurance companies? Private hospitals? POOF! poof!
Interlocking directorates? Supersized influence on government? POOF!

Wow! I feel freer already!

I would eliminate The Fed, and place the responsibility for printing money back in government hands.

I would return our aircraft carriers and battleships and drones back to our borders, close our foreign bases, and bring our soldiers home. I would put them to work, fire-proofing our forests, rebuilding our wetlands, insulating our buildings, fixing our bridges, and other useful investments for our future.

I would suspend our so-called free trade agreements.

I would require each media outlet to represent state- and Federal-level candidates without charge.

I would require an education commission to develop a curriculum which teaches CRITICAL THINKING, and implement it as soon as possible.

I would add/ modify several Constitutional amendments:
An Equal Rights Amendment, not just for women but for everyone.
I would add a "vote of no confidence" to our process.

I would seriously look at changing our governmental structure. It's apparent that the balance of power among the three branches has become seriously overweighted towards the President.

I would eliminate the whole "born in the USA" 14th amendment, and make English the official language.

In return, I would provide a path forward to citizenship for all illegal residents, provided that they could prove residency for ten (15?) years, were not convicted of any crime other than illegal immigration, and learned to speak English FLUENTLY. After that?? NO MERCY to illegals, and no more anchor babies!


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Friday, February 21, 2014 7:11 PM

CHRISISALL


Signy for Prez.

I think I've said that before....

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Friday, February 21, 2014 9:28 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

and no more anchor babies!


Wait what?

That could potentially murder kids, if it involves deporting them back into a clusterfuck. And what about the contributions of children of hard scrabble immigrants to society?

And why is english speaking so important? That's would ruin cultural enclaves in America that spice up our country and force everyone to be assimilated. There's a reason the Borg were bad guys.

I agreed with pretty much everything you said up to that, since razing the existing economic power structures to the ground and going back to the very basics seems the only way to fix the current problems. But then it went somewhere strange.

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Friday, February 21, 2014 9:29 PM

BYTEMITE


And also, I didn't really want to get into this much, but... What about targeting the inherent concepts that cause the flaws and discrepancies in society? Like money itself. Or what about SCIENCE as solutions to some problems? Like mortality?

I mean you ask a question like this, you gotta think BIG.

I'm talking uploading my brain into a robot, and crazy stuff in a similar fashion. I said EVERYTHING because at that moment there were so many potentials and possibilities that it was impossible to articulate.

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Friday, February 21, 2014 9:47 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
What about targeting the inherent concepts that cause the flaws and discrepancies in society? Like money itself.

I like your style, Byte.
Money is so early 21st.
We need to evolve beyond that. Seriously.
Chuck Capitalism. Chuck Socialism.
Humanism. We should take care of our own.
Humanity.

BUT.

What's life without anger & hatred? Happiness?
Mankind would never go for that at this stage. Conflict is just TOO interesting. We're like a dude with a gambling addiction; we want to see how stupid choices play out.
Sadly.

I'll be happier in the 23rd Century....

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Friday, February 21, 2014 9:50 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'll be happier in the 23rd Century....

Wait another two hundred years and you can bang Erin Gray.

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Friday, February 21, 2014 11:01 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wait another two hundred years and you can bang Erin Gray.

Silly silly British man.

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 10:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
I would make "V For Vendetta" required viewing for all Americans.



My only problem with that is that it depends on which side of the fence one's standing. Hate to interject it here, but in The Phantom Menace, the Senator Palpatine does make a valid point to trick Aniken, when he points out the lawlessness of the Jedi. They couldn't go through the proper channels, because HE had rigged the system. So, if they go rogue, and try to take matters into their own hands, THEY are the lawless rebels. Aniken was naive and young. He wanted to believe in a system that wasn't broken, so when Palpatine painted a half accurate picture of events, omitting the fact that he himself was trying to rule and do away with the Republic, it was convincing enough.

As Obi Wan aptly put..."Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view "

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:01 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


A lesson you could learn, rappy.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



RUSH LIMBAUGH is a BLUE PILL ADDICT!
As evidence of "rape mentality"
Tuesday, July 30, 2013 8:11 PM
MAL4PREZ
And just remember, according to Rappy, the term befitting a women who wants the insurance she pays for to cover medications affecting her reproductive organs is
whore

Wednesday, July 31, 2013 4:23 PM
little rappy
The term applies



And this is Geezer being non-partisan ... HAHAHA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ...
Dem Super Pac slams Obamacare because it really sucks and will cause herpes
Geezer
So some Democrats are running on pointing out that the Healthcare.gov rollout was an unmitigated disaster

I feel so vindicated.

"Just glad that some Democrats are acknowledging the bad job done in developing Healthcare.com." "it'll be interesting to see if these same Democrats acknowledge" "these Democrats seem to understand what the real Obama Kool-Ade drinkers still won't address" " it's about Democrats using criticism of the rollout in their campaign ads".




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Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:02 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Sig posted in another thread:
Quote:

Specifically, I'd like to know which aspects of the USA you think are worth keeping, which ones you'd like to change, and how far is "too far" in terms of change in the USA.

She suggested we start a new thread, so I'm game, we'll see if it goes anywhere. Here's my contribution:

I guess I'd start, for one thing, with redistricting, that's a real biggie for me. The parties should never be in charge of it. If we changed just that, I think we'd at least have a more representative form of government, tho' it wouldn't make a gigantic difference.

Term limits--for ALL government offices. I watched our Willie Brown control this state for decades from various offices, and it taught me a lot. It's a two-edged sword, unquestionably, because it takes time to accomplish anything in government, but the way it is now doesn't work very well.

Election reform, that's a biggie. The 501c-3 thing is a travesty; thus far JUST money hasn't been enough to buy everything, but given time, it'll just get worse. There's a lot more to election reform, but that would be a start.

Lifetime appointments to the Supreme Court. Another double-edged sword, but one that, the way it's become now, is really screwing us. And the involvement of Supreme Court Justices in politics, which is wayyyy out of hand right now.

Lobbyists, and the revolving door of politics/lobbying. None of these would be easy to fix, even if there was the will to do so, and I don't know how they could be fixed, but they're working against us as a country.

Organizations like ALEC being able to dictate to politicians. NO idea how you fix something like that, but the way it is now, with them WRITING our fucking laws, is abominable.

A real biggie for me--and you can't "make" it happen, would be more than just the two-party system. I think more VIABLE parties with power would go a ways toward improving what's happening today.

That's off the top of my head, nothing more, and I haven't the vaguest idea how to change any of that, all I've done for years is just try to bring things to peoples' attention, I don't know what more can be done.



Ironically, everything you posted I would agree with and most of them would make it on my top of the list to do if we actually had any pull.

My number one thing would be to find out a way to make a politician PAY for not living up to their promises. Fucking Tide gets sued if their top-shelf product doesn't clean clothes or it cleans them but makes mothers bear children with birth defects. Why should GWB be able to lie to us for 8 years straight, followed by 8 years of Obama lying to us?

Glad to see you finally thinking Third Party Niki.

Welcome to the club ;)


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Saturday, February 22, 2014 11:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Signy for Prez.

I think I've said that before....



Commie bastahd.

` Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Saturday, February 22, 2014 12:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


BYTE
Quote:

That could potentially murder kids, if it involves deporting them back into a clusterfuck. And what about the contributions of children of hard scrabble immigrants to society?
Illegal laborers are low-wage laborers. Saying that illegals have contributed (or are contributing) to our society is like saying that low-wage Chinese labor is contributing to our society. The only people who really win in that scenario are business owners.

Quote:

And why is english speaking so important? That's would ruin cultural enclaves in America that spice up our country and force everyone to be assimilated. There's a reason the Borg were bad guys.
A friend of mine once said There are no nations, only language groups. The longer I've thought about it, the more correct it seems. What makes "Poland" a self-identity? It's borders have been here, there, elsewhere, and nowhere. At times, it occupied parts of the Ukraine and Lithuania, at times it was wiped entirely from the map. The reason why that identity was preserved was because the language persisted. The Brits knew this: they attempted to wipe out the language of the Irish, the Scots, and the Welsh; and where they couldn't wipe out the native languages they made English the official language. My point is, you can't have a national identity unless you have a common language.

We can discuss whether maintaining the concept of "nations" is even reasonable, but if you're going have a nation, then you need a common language- one that everyone is expected to know fluently.

Quote:

I agreed with pretty much everything you said up to that, since razing the existing economic power structures to the ground and going back to the very basics seems the only way to fix the current problems. But then it went somewhere strange.
There's something in my proposals for everyone to hate!

Quote:

And also, I didn't really want to get into this much, but... What about targeting the inherent concepts that cause the flaws and discrepancies in society? Like money itself.
Money is a big problem, but I haven't figured out a replacement. As soon as I figure out what to replace it with (either back to barter, or allow the development of regional/ local currencies) the only thing I can do is attempt to manage its distribution.

Quote:

Or what about SCIENCE as solutions to some problems? Like mortality?
Science is a whore. Or, I should say technology is a whore.

Besides, our existential problems- the problems that threaten our very existence as a species - aren't technological. Our biggest problem is OURSELVES. We're the ones who've caused the very disasters that we're facing, and until we take a long, hard scientific view of ourselves, and understand why we create such self-destructive clusterfucks and how we can prevent that in the future, we will continue to be a threat to ourselves.

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Tuesday, February 25, 2014 10:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Illegal laborers are low-wage laborers. Saying that illegals have contributed (or are contributing) to our society is like saying that low-wage Chinese labor is contributing to our society. The only people who really win in that scenario are business owners.


But what about LIVING in our society? They left their old society behind for a reason. Some of them did have to do things we would frown upon (like smuggling) just to get here because they were poor. It seems inhumane to just toss people for that.

Only the business owners win because they're free to exploit the laborers. Your solution is don't let the business owners exploit them by KICKING THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

Hey yeah, what other things can we punish victims for because they have a less-than-legal status? I know, let's deport all the prostitutes even if they've been passed around by the trafficking rings or if they're children.

Quote:

but if you're going have a nation, then you need a common language- one that everyone is expected to know fluently.


Hell with nations. Nations is how you get pride and NATIONALISM. Know what Nationalism causes?

Intolerance and war.

Quote:

We're the ones who've caused the very disasters that we're facing, and until we take a long, hard scientific view of ourselves, and understand why we create such self-destructive clusterfucks and how we can prevent that in the future, we will continue to be a threat to ourselves.


Hmm.


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Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:17 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Byte, I'm right there beside you on these two issues. In the greater scheme of things, illegal immigrants and "English as a national language" are, in my opinion, waaaay down the list of what's wrong with America.

That comes from someone who feels her hackles rise when in a department store and the clerk starts jabbering away with another employee in Spanish--it bothers me, I know it, but I don't accept that my being bothered is "right". The vast majority of Americans (especially traveling Americans!) frigging refuse to learn any language BUT English, the world has been taken over BY English, and I'm offended that we should try to insist that everyone speak it...which is merely personal opinion and because I feel cultures should be maintained. That too many immigrants don't learn English is a problem, but I don't agree with penalizing immigrants when we have so many other, far more serious in my opinion, problems. Ditto the immigrant problem, which you covered perfectly.


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Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:47 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I was amazed in Europe how people switched from one language to another effortlessly. Only the French resist it, and they really do have a bug up their collective asses about language.

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Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:05 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I was amazed in Europe how people switched from one language to another effortlessly. Only the French resist it, and they really do have a bug up their collective asses about language.



Everyone else in the world teaches English as a second language.

Here, we give bonuses if you speak Spanish too.

I'm sure even German has an "I get a tax break if I cater to white-hating Muslim Extremists" clause. Why else would they be twice as invaded as we are by towel-heads?


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Thursday, February 27, 2014 9:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Guys, I didn't say make other language illegal, I said make English the official language- EVERYONE has to learn it. If you know another language, good on you!

My dad cam from Poland. My grandparents on my mother's side came form Poland. My hubby (and of course his entire family) came from Hungary. The first thing they did was LEARN THE LANGUAGE. And if I moved to another nation, I would assume that I had to learn the language too.

Now, why do I insist on having immigrants learn the official language? Because if you cant' speak the language, you will be isolated form healthcare, from training, from police services, from politics, and from the million-and-one things that you personally don't encounter as a problem because you speak the language.

We've hired household help to watch our daughter when she was having a lot of seizures, and one of the things we insisted on was the ABILITY TO SPEAK ENGLISH. How could we communicate with her caregiver such complex topics as "what a seizure looks like", how could her caregiver communicate with EMS unless she had fluent command of the English language?
Watched as an A/C contractor could only give his very illegal work crew the most primitive of instructions. Same with painters. No training possible. Only the most slapdash work results.

And for all of the language here in the USA, you can't POSSIBLY have interpreters for every possible language! Seriously, guys, put on your thinking caps!


Quote:

But what about LIVING in our society? They left their old society behind for a reason. Some of them did have to do things we would frown upon (like smuggling) just to get here because they were poor. It seems inhumane to just toss people for that.

Only the business owners win because they're free to exploit the laborers. Your solution is don't let the business owners exploit them by KICKING THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY?

Hey yeah, what other things can we punish victims for because they have a less-than-legal status? I know, let's deport all the prostitutes even if they've been passed around by the trafficking rings or if they're children.

As long as legal control is maintained within national boundaries (ie no one-world government!) the only solutions that can be applied effectively are within borders.

And, I propose, a nation can't effectively solve its own problems unless it controls its borders. I did a thought-experiment a number of years ago which convinced me of this.

The idea was... assuming that the USA is a nation with ONLY the welfare its citizens at stake.... health care, jobs, the environment are all being addressed.... even if immigration is allowed, there are only so many people an economy can integrate every year. Only so many people can be taught the language, only so many people can find housing AND WATER, only so many people can be screened and treated for communicable diseases, and so forth. Unless an economy is willing to turn over a larger-than-sustainable percentage of its economy over to integrating newcomers, a nation simply can't integrate an endless influx. We're no longer a frontier economy, needing immigrants to fill up the land (that we stole from the Indians. Heck, look at what "the immigrants" did to THEIR economy!). IF we are going to control our economy. No, ESPECIALLY IF we intend to control our economy, our health care, our environmental sustainability, our culture, and all that good stuff, we MUST control our immigration rate. Just as the Costa Ricans... they're having a hard time with Nicaraguans sneaking across their border for free health care!

Now, the argument has been made that the USA created a lot of clusterfucks elsewhere. Interfered with the political and economic development of many nations, in service to our transnational corporations. They argue that the USA has a moral duty to take in immigrants to make up for the damage it has caused elsewhere.

I agree to some extent. As I see it, the USA has a moral duty to keep its nose out of everyone else's business, and in some way to repair the damage we have done elsewhere, if such is possible. By allowing development elsewhere, we reduce immigration pressure on our borders. I go partway to meeting that requirement by insisting that our military come home, because our transnationals would have never survived and thrived without our military backing them up in foreign lands. I also cut the head off the snake by elimination corporations, and suspending our "free trade" agreements, which have proved disastrous not only for us but for our participating partners.* Other than that, as far as I see it each nation is on its own, and each leader must face the will of his or her people without USA interference either for or against.

Quote:

Hell with nations. Nations is how you get pride and NATIONALISM. Know what Nationalism causes? Intolerance and war.
Right now the only thing standing between you and sheer, naked, global fascism is nationalism. Just like I think that economies should be able to be broken down into regional or local pieces and still survive, I think that political units and cultural expressions should be able to be broken down into sub-dividable units. It's a faustian bargain, but one I'm willing to make. If you have a better idea, let me know.

Quote:

Hmm.
Yep. Hmmm. When I look to the source of all of our problems, 99% of the time it's not volcanoes or meteors or events out of our control, it's something we did or failed to do. We've moved into so many new lands, and re-created the same problems. The same thing will happen even if we move into space. Heck, we ARE in space. We just haven't realized it!


You see any exit signs?

Yeah, me neither. And yet, with the evidence staring us in the face that we have to LIVE HERE, we keep on doing as if we have someplace else to go.
"I've met the enemy, and he is us." Truer words were never spoken.

* Just as there is such a thing as "zero sum" (the pie is only one size, any increase in one quantity must be matched by a decrease elsewhere) there is such as thing as non zero-sum. Liberals and libertarians like to point to the idea that the pie can be made bigger. What I don't find is the corresponding realization that non zero-sum can work BOTH ways... yes, the pie can be made bigger. The pie can also be degraded, made smaller. Free trade (as currently practiced) manages to do that- make the pie smaller for everyone.

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Thursday, February 27, 2014 10:15 AM

BYTEMITE


I liked the US keep out of other people's business part, but then I think I just saw you approve of outsourcing manufacturing jobs to exploitative sweatshops.

And you also said that somehow international problems like immigration would be solved with a one world government.

I would have to seriously disagree on those points.

As for the language issue, I think the main problem is that we don't provide people enough opportunity in their immigrant enclaves. If most exchange and manufacture of goods and services were local, immigrants could provide for each other and their culture would thrive without having to interact outside of that world. Then they could learn whatever language they wanted to if they so choose to, instead of being forced to learn a language by economic pressures and the cultural oppression of the majority.

Quote:

Right now the only thing standing between you and sheer, naked, global fascism is nationalism.


No it's not. Nationalism is rapidly ACCELERATING the world in the direction of global fascism. The US is desperately trying to take over a lot of nations via economics and puppet governments in a bid to maintain superpower status. I'll grant you that China is trying to resist that for nationalist reasons, but if the US failed for whatever reason, you really think China wouldn't then try to take over the world themselves?

Not that they COULD, or that America could either, but nationalism is an inherent PART of that progression, not the counter to it. The counter to it is innate human resistance to being told what to do by strangers or authority figures or both.

Or maybe the Nazis weren't nationalistic fascists and didn't actually want to rule the world either.

Quote:

You see any exit signs?


...Yes?

I don't disagree with the whole live like we have to live here thing, but I always get a little skitchy when people seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't EVER leave. That way lies extinction whether we sort out our problems or not.

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Thursday, February 27, 2014 11:48 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

but then I think I just saw you approve of outsourcing manufacturing jobs to exploitative sweatshops.
And you also said that somehow international problems like immigration would be solved with a one world government.
I would have to seriously disagree on those points.

Me too! I guess I must not be communicating clearly.
Quote:

As for the language issue, I think the main problem is that we don't provide people enough opportunity in their immigrant enclaves. If most exchange and manufacture of goods and services were local, immigrants could provide for each other and their culture would thrive without having to interact outside of that world. Then they could learn whatever language they wanted to if they so choose to, instead of being forced to learn a language by economic pressures and the cultural oppression of the majority.
Why would we want to promote immigrant enclaves? I've seen immigrant enclaves here in LA County. They're like something in Juarez: cardboard and tin shacks with no sewage, no water, no electricity. Those problems can't be solved at the immigrant enclave level.

Yanno, I like the idea of devolving problems to the lowest level at which they can be solved, but there are some problems that can't be solved at low levels.

The other thing- there used to be computer games at U of Toronto exploring the relative successes of cooperation versus competition (part of game theory). When they got to pitting collective cooperation versus collective competition, they found that cooperation wins... but only if the collective is large enough. "Cooperative individuals" is something of an oxymoron. If you're going to create a new society, you have to be big enough to withstand the global force of corporatism. I think that means a national-scale effort.
Quote:

No it's not. Nationalism is rapidly ACCELERATING the world in the direction of global fascism. The US is desperately trying to take over a lot of nations via economics and puppet governments in a bid to maintain superpower status. I'll grant you that China is trying to resist that for nationalist reasons, but if the US failed for whatever reason, you really think China wouldn't then try to take over the world themselves?
And yet, other nations continue to plow ahead with their own economic and social experiments. This may be about as successful as a feudalist arguing capitalism, but nations are inevitably smaller than global corporatism. It it possible to turn nations around. It isn't possible to turn global corporatism around.
Quote:

The counter to it is innate human resistance to being told what to do by strangers or authority figures or both.
I have seen next-to-nothing of this.
Quote:

I don't disagree with the whole live like we have to live here thing, but I always get a little skitchy when people seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't EVER leave. That way lies extinction whether we sort out our problems or not.
At some point- yes- we really have to get off this rock as a form of ultimate self-preservation. But my point was that until we learn to solve ourselves, we'll take our self-destruction with us wherever we go.



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Friday, February 28, 2014 12:10 AM

OONJERAH



~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~

Quote Signym: "At some point- yes- we really have to get off
this rock as a form of ultimate self-preservation. But my point
was that until we learn to solve ourselves, we'll take our self-
destruction with us wherever we go."

~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~ : ~

I may be ignorant of politics, militarism, economics and so on ...
But the above is totally self-evident. Applies to the personal
level, too.

====================== :>

A man's gotta know his Delusions. ~Oonjerah

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Friday, February 28, 2014 10:18 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Free trade (as currently practiced) manages to do that- make the pie smaller for everyone.
Well, I was just meandering thru the internet and look at what I found:

Quote:

This paper compares the performance of the Mexican economy with that of the rest of the region over the past 20 years... it finds that Mexico ranks 18th out of 20 Latin American countries in growth of real GDP per person, the most basic economic measure of living standards; Mexico’s poverty rate of in 2012 was almost identical to the poverty rate of 1994; real (inflation-adjusted) wages for Mexico were almost the same in 2012 as in 1994; and unemployment has increased significantly. It also notes that if NAFTA had been successful in restoring Mexico’s pre-1980 growth rate – when developmentalist economic policies were the norm – Mexico today would be a relatively high income country, with income per person significantly higher than that of Portugal or Greece. It is unlikely that immigration reform would be a major political issue in the United States, since relatively few Mexicans would seek to cross the border.
That's why I hate "free trade"- it's just a bigger coliseum in which to make people compete for life.


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Friday, February 28, 2014 6:46 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Now, why do I insist on having immigrants learn the official language? Because if you cant' speak the language, you will be isolated form healthcare, from training, from police services, from politics, and from the million-and-one things that you personally don't encounter as a problem because you speak the language.


I live in land of immigrants too and have worked with many of them over the years. Some things I have observed.

First generation adults struggle to learn new languages and some factors make learning language almost impossible. The older you are and the less literate you are, the more you are going to struggle. I once met an Eritrean grandma, who was basically a tribeswoman, couldn't read and write and if I remember rightly, spoke an obscure dialect as her first language. She had been sent on one language course after another and was never going to master anything more basic than 'hello' and 'yes' 'no'.

First generation children can master language flawlessly and will speak as well as a native speaker. Second generation, same.

The problem, I suspect, is with Mexican immigrants, who perhaps are in US for economic reasons only. They cross the border to make some money and return to Mexico periodically. They are almost like illegal guest workers, am I correct?


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Friday, February 28, 2014 7:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, exactly like illegal guest workers. All of the exploitability of cheap foreign labor, conveniently in your own backyard! And absolutely no commitment from the other side, either!


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Tuesday, March 4, 2014 4:26 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I hope that as you watch Ukraine break apart into the Ukrainian-speaking part and the Russian-speaking one, you'll see the reason why I think that every nation needs an official language.


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Wednesday, March 5, 2014 11:30 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Right?


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Thursday, March 6, 2014 12:22 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:



You see any exit signs?

Yeah, me neither. And yet, with the evidence staring us in the face that we have to LIVE HERE, we keep on doing as if we have someplace else to go.]



I like it. Every once in a while I'll scan a thread and one of you says something sane. It's nice...I may steal that one for a project in the future though...

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Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:06 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ideas are like money: Best when exchanged!


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Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:15 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


stop trying to class islam as a religion instead class it as a weird demonic subversive cult

Iran turns off 2 of UN nuclear watchdog's cameras
https://apnews.com/article/united-nations-international-atomic-energy-
agency-iran-middle-east-58f6cd38ebbd1aa2c7cbdcad7dc210bf


end the Technocracy?

This is Extremely Dangerous to Our Democracy™: Part 3
https://euphoricrecall.substack.com/p/this-is-extremely-dangerous-to-o
ur-2ae

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