FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Punching somebody with a closed fist?

POSTED BY: RAIFTEL
UPDATED: Saturday, June 15, 2024 15:12
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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 4:25 AM

RAIFTEL


Not so much an episode query.

In the Train Job Mal says to the doctor something along the lines of "They say to never punch somebody with a closed fist, but on occassion it is damned amusing" (sorry for the brutalised quote )

Anyways I am not a fighter at all so was wondering why you should not punch somebody with a closed fist and Mal would find it amusing to do now and then.

From a pure psyhics level I am assuming it is because a closed fist would break the hand...but I honestly don't know.





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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:00 AM

KNIBBLET


It was a joke, raiftel. From beginning to end, a joke. Mal was making a funny.

As for breaking the hand, you're much more likely to do it if you have a loose fist than a proper closed fist. To make a perfect fist (perfect for punching, that is):
1.Start bending your fingers at the 1st (topmost) knuckle, then the 2nd, then roll them into your palm.

-- Do NOT have your fingers flat against your palm - they are rolled. People with long nails find this uncomfortable because the nails dig into the hand. This is why fighters don't have elegant manicures. If you have your fingers flat when you punch, ensure you have a friend ready to drive you to the St. Lucy's emergency room. --

2. Your thumb wraps around and the tip tucks over the index and middle fingers between the 1st and 2nd knuckles. Tight tight tight

3. Your stricking point is the flat surface created by your index and middle fingers between the 2nd and 3rd knuckles. The 3rd knuckle is where the finger meets the hand. Hit with that board.

-- do NOT hit people with your knuckles ... remember the trip to St. Lucy's --

Quote:

Originally posted by raiftel:
Not so much an episode query.
Anyways I am not a fighter at all so was wondering why you should not punch somebody with a closed fist ... From a pure psyhics level I am assuming it is because a closed fist would break the hand...but I honestly don't know.



"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:00 AM

BEATLE


Yeah you can break it(the skull is very hard and teeth are very sharp), the most commom break is called a "boxers fracture". The reason boxers tape their hands up is to align the wrist in a proper way so to try and prevent this.


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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:22 AM

PURPLEBELLY


My reading of They tell you never hit a man with a closed fist is that, in a pre-wushu Firefly, the alternative to the closed fist is a slap with the open palm. So the fist is dangerous to the recipient, the palm merely insulting. I'm surprised that fight-ready-Reynolds hasn't gone prepared with a pair of snug gloves to protect from abrasions and provide some elementary strapping.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:24 AM

RAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
It was a joke, raiftel. From beginning to end, a joke. Mal was making a funny.



I know it's a joke, I know it's funny, I know it makes me laugh, what I don't know is why.

-Ratboy

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:25 AM

STATIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
It was a joke, raiftel. From beginning to end, a joke. Mal was making a funny.

As for breaking the hand, you're much more likely to do it if you have a loose fist than a proper closed fist. To make a perfect fist (perfect for punching, that is):
1.Start bending your fingers at the 1st (topmost) knuckle, then the 2nd, then roll them into your palm.

-- Do NOT have your fingers flat against your palm - they are rolled. People with long nails find this uncomfortable because the nails dig into the hand. This is why fighters don't have elegant manicures. If you have your fingers flat when you punch, ensure you have a friend ready to drive you to the St. Lucy's emergency room. --

2. Your thumb wraps around and the tip tucks over the index and middle fingers between the 1st and 2nd knuckles. Tight tight tight

3. Your stricking point is the flat surface created by your index and middle fingers between the 2nd and 3rd knuckles. The 3rd knuckle is where the finger meets the hand. Hit with that board.

-- do NOT hit people with your knuckles ... remember the trip to St. Lucy's --



"Just keep walkin, preacher man."




Oh. .

wow.

A woman who knows the physics and mechanics of a punch.

I think I love you.


==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:28 AM

STATIC


Quote:

Originally posted by Beatle:
Yeah you can break it(the skull is very hard and teeth are very sharp),



That is why the best place to punch, when aiming at the head/face is square on the nose. Getting hit in the nose causes more immediate pain than anywhere else, and a square hit will also produce lots of blood, which panics your opponent.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:32 AM

STARRBABY


Wow. I'm learning all sorts of things today.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:41 AM

KNIBBLET


Perhaps if he'd said, "They tell you that when you're navigating through an asteroid belt to never mix your sake` with Everclear..." ? The joke is, "If the deed is inappropriate, it doesn't matter how you alter the doing."

Quote:

Originally posted by Rat:
I know it's a joke, I know it's funny, I know it makes me laugh, what I don't know is why.
-Ratboy



"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:45 AM

KNIBBLET


Damn good thing I'm in your harem then, Flyboy, Sir
Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
Oh. . wow.
A woman who knows the physics and mechanics of a punch. I think I love you.



"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 5:47 AM

KNIBBLET


Not to mention, if the nose breaks, you get the bonus points for instantly creating two black eyes. *shoulda seen the other guy*
Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
That is why the best place to punch, when aiming at the head/face is square on the nose. Getting hit in the nose causes more immediate pain than anywhere else, and a square hit will also produce lots of blood, which panics your opponent.



"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 6:41 AM

SHINYSEVEN


What Mal said is "but it is occasionally hi-larious" (which, I was just musing, shows what a flair he has for language).

I think the question is not closed fist vs. loose fist or a slap, but using your hand rather than a table leg or baseball bat or something like that--or just showing up for the meet early and having a sniper posted.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 7:26 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL


4. Do not hold your fist parallel to the ground, like boxers do. Instead hit with a fist that is perpendicular to the ground. The reason for this is that a parallel fist means you are likely to hit with the second knuckles of the fingers, easily breaking your hand. A hit with a perpendicular fist is more likely to include first knuckles and therefore the support of your hand, wrist and arm.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 7:32 AM

REAVERMADNESS


Quote:

Originally posted by raiftel:
Not so much an episode query.

In the Train Job Mal says to the doctor something along the lines of "They say to never punch somebody with a closed fist, but on occassion it is damned amusing" (sorry for the brutalised quote )



Everybody is getting into how to properly hit someone if not with/or with a closed fist. With the thought of my patron saint (Jayne) in mind... the best way to hit someone is in the neck from 300 yards.


When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 8:21 AM

STATIC


Quote:

Originally posted by ReaverMadness:

Everybody is getting into how to properly hit someone if not with/or with a closed fist. With the thought of my patron saint (Jayne) in mind... the best way to hit someone is in the neck from 300 yards.


When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not screaming and yelling like everyone else in the car he was driving.



Which brings me to my favorite little rule. . .

Never bring a knife to a gunfight. . .ALWAYS bring a gun to a fistfight.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 2:07 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by Knibblet:
It was a joke, raiftel. From beginning to end, a joke. Mal was making a funny.


The biggest part of that joke was lost on us the first time we saw "The Train Job," since we had not yet seen the two times Mal hit Simon with a closed fist in the original pilot.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, March 2, 2005 2:39 PM

THEGREYJEDI


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:

Which brings me to my favorite little rule. . .

Never bring a knife to a gunfight. . .ALWAYS bring a gun to a fistfight.



I'd bring a knife to a gunfight. I'd have a suitably large gun, too, but I'd still bring the knife.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Chief Engineer - USS SereniTREE.
http://www.jed-soft.com Gamer Rigs, Budget Prices
http://tomeofgrey.blogspot.com
Real Fans Wait - 09/30/05

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Friday, March 4, 2005 9:17 PM

NEEDLESEYE


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:
Getting hit in the nose causes more immediate pain than anywhere else, and a square hit will also produce lots of blood, which panics your opponent.



Oh such a lovely discussion!

A palm heel strike in the nose is nicer.
OK, well, not nice for the recipient, but it spares your knuckles and your nails, ladies.
Just sayin'

... then you can scratch their face with your nails, if you hung around to see if they passed out.
I think I'd run, but not until after I kicked the groin and maybe elbowed them in the throat, y'know for good measure. The butt end of a big stick is quite handy, same results, keeps some distance...

Oh, OK, back to my demure self...




Keeper of Jayne's goggles. 8)

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Friday, March 4, 2005 9:51 PM

CALHOUN


Around 15 yrs ago I was walking home from my friends house late at night when I was attacked by a group of drunken thugs. I tried to talk my way out of it but it became obvious I would have no alternative except to defend myself. The main thug charged at me I punched his head knocking him out cold. The other guys stepped back eyeing me warily as I started walking away.

About 20 mins later I guess when the adrenaline wore off I noticed a great deal of pain and swelling in my hand. It turns out I completely snapped the 4th metacarpel requiring surgery and a metal plate... So Mals statement about how you should never punch a man with a closed fist holds special meaning to me.

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Saturday, March 5, 2005 7:41 AM

DARKJESTER


Many many years ago, while I was taking a style of Japanese martial art, I was taught a simple mnemonic key on how to strike - hard to soft, soft to hard.

You don't use a hard fist to strike a hard target, like your opponent's jaw or elbow. That's a good way to break the tiny bones in the hand. Instead, you use the heel of your palm, or a "chop" with the fleshy part of the side of your hand. A closed fist works better on more forgiving surfaces like the abdomen, ribs, and muscle tissue.

And I don't know about the biology or the physics, but we were taught to make a fist at about a 30 degree angle. To see the angle, make a "thumbs up" sign with your arm extended, tuck your thumb over the end knuckles of your index and second fingers, and rotate your fist about 30 degrees, top inward. That provides a "natural" striking angle, and good support for the wrist so you don't sprain it.

Of course there are many schools and theories, but I'd agree the NOT striking someone's face with a closed fist is very good advice. But could be, depending on the outcome, hilarious.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Sunday, April 3, 2005 5:05 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.


I can't believe I missed this thread. Sigh, always late to a party.

Anyways, the step by step instructions Knibblet posted are really good. I always found that it didn't matter much if you turned your wrist over or kept it perpendicular to the ground, as long as you kept your wrist flat and pushed the two big knuckles (middle and index foward. This keeps you from injuring your wrist. Try not to target the mouth directly, the teeth can cut you, anywhere else is pretty much fair game as long as you make contact with the big knuckles and yor wrist doesn't bend on impact. Boxers break their hands because they do not practice hitting without tape and gloves, also they have a tendency to land a punch with the two smaller knuckles(especially if they throw a lot of hooks).

A lot of karatekas try to build up the bone round the big knuckles by doing pushups on their knuckles and striking a makiwara board. These types are easy to pick out because their knuckles are oversized and have heavy callouses.

edited for spelling

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Monday, April 4, 2005 9:20 AM

HARDWARE


Quote:

Originally posted by Static:

That is why the best place to punch, when aiming at the head/face is square on the nose. Getting hit in the nose causes more immediate pain than anywhere else, and a square hit will also produce lots of blood, which panics your opponent.




If you can get to oblige you and turn their head so you are striking across their face, the tip of the chin is also an exceptionally good spot. Having your mandible shift side to side quickly is very disorienting.

Another good spot is the meaty joint of the jaw, just under the ear. There's a nerve cluster there and a quick, sharp strike with ring just about anyone's bell. Plus, if you miss you can rupture the cartilage in their ear and give them a permanent reminder of your fight in a cauliflower ear.

The legacy of a misspent youth.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, April 4, 2005 10:55 AM

CHRISISALL


I swear this is absolutly true...
I was asked about open hand vs. closed fist, and my answer was fist for body and open hand for neck and head. My co-worker asked about power in the open hand strike. We held a NY phonebook up against an oak door and I punched it as hard as I could with a left fist, I was meaning for him to hear the impact to get an idea how hard it was bein' hit.
Well, I broke my nuckle on the spot. Gorram did that hurt!! But as long as I was showin' him, I hit it again with a right open hand and the resultant "thud" was enough to prove that the open hand strike had signifigantly more force behind it.
Don't know how this plays here, but the dudes at my Wing Chun class were rollin'.

Chrisisall

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Monday, April 4, 2005 10:56 AM

CHRISISALL


I swear this is absolutly true...
I was asked about open hand vs. closed fist, and my answer was fist for body and open hand for neck and head. My co-worker asked about power in the open hand strike. We held a NY phonebook up against an oak door and I punched it as hard as I could with a left fist, I was meaning for him to hear the impact to get an idea how hard it was bein' hit.
Well, I broke my nuckle on the spot. Gorram did that hurt!! But as long as I was showin' him, I hit it again with a right open hand and the resultant "thud" was enough to prove that the open hand strike had signifigantly more force behind it.
Don't know how this plays here, but the dudes at my Wing Chun class were rollin'.

(this was a few years ago when I was young(er) and stupid(er) )

Chrisisall

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Monday, April 4, 2005 2:27 PM

JUKO


It all depends on the type of strike. A closed-fist punch typically tries to drive the fist through the target, whereas an open-palmed strike generally strikes the target and stops quickly, with the result that most of the force from an open-palmed strike is confined to the physical strike itself rather than the follow-through as in a closed-fisted strike.

Additionally, knuckle-punches are occasionally used in certain martial arts (a knuckle punch is made by bending the first and second joints of your fingers down, and contacting with the flat surface of the middle joints of the fingers). However, if you haven't been taught to punch in this fashion correctly, don't do it. If you do it incorrectly (such as striking with the points of your knuckles) you will break your fingers. Let me repeat: if you haven't been taught how to use this punch correctly, don't do it or you will break your fingers.



Personally, I think punching is over-rated. Nothing like a good, old-fashioned flying drop kick to stop a fight. :)

Does Blue Sun sponser the Blue Man Group?

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Monday, April 4, 2005 2:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Points well taken. It's my notion, however that a punch will break a nose, where a palm could break a neck (allowing for placement, timing, inertia, etc.)
And yeah, a good drop kick WILL end most trouble.( jus' not against them which see it a comin')

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 6:20 PM

MER


Oh! Not to mention kicking. Especially REALLY hard in the Shins and groin if necessary (sorry guys)

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 8:04 PM

FIGHTON4GOD


You guys should write a book:

"How to Properly Punch a Man With a Closed Fist"
By The Browncoats from FireflyFans.Net

Best seller, I'm tellin' you! Because, c'mon! Physics lessons from Browncoats? How shiny is that?!


Keep Flyin' Under the Radar!

~ Anna ~AKA~ FightOn4God ~


Stay tuned to FOX at 9/8 Central on Wednesdays for Adam Baldwin's new show, "The Inside".

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Wednesday, July 6, 2005 5:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Wow! Haven't seen this thread in a while!
Kicking in the groin works only if your attacker is relativly calm, that is if he's confident of overtaking you in a more or less planned way. If he's real angry you should always try to break something (finger, knee, windpipe), and quickly. It's amazing the level of pain that can be suppressed by a little anger and a lot of adreneline. If you can damage something, not just hurt for the sake of pain, you have a better chance of escaping (and that's the point, most of us can't take a fight to the end like Max or Buffy).

Fight instructor Chrisisall

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Wednesday, July 6, 2005 5:30 AM

CHRISISALL


A lot of books could be written by them on this board. Check out this thread here for some really good fighting Browncoat stories! http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=9357


Bruce is my hero Chrisisall

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 9:30 AM

MIMA


No one has mentioned that outside of the movies,
if you hit someone in the face with a closed fist, the skin of your knuckles *will* split, broken bones or not. That is the reason for the hard to soft rule mentioned above- open or edged against hard bone, hard fist against soft trunk.

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Thursday, July 14, 2005 11:18 AM

CHRISISALL


Very good point, see Mal's knuckles in Train Job, a little split, by the doc's question, but not too bad. I've punched trees and brick walls (long and uninteresting post-teen angst story) without too much in the way of blood escaping, however I favour Wing Chun punches, they don't lead with the center knuckle...

Technique followin' Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 12:54 PM

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL


I very badly want to contribute my two cents and look like Billy Badass, but damn. Y'all got it covered. Like the one guy said--always late to a party.

What the hell, here's my two cents anyway: knees and elbows. Max damage, minimum pain, range too close for effective counterattacks short of edged weapons and grappling.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 1:55 PM

CHRISISALL


Yes, Inevitable, knees and elbows are golden at close range, they indeed have a speed advantage as well as using the torso, involving larger, stronger muscles as their driving force. I love it when they get close.
I also love if they keep their distance; knees are fun to kick.
The only thing I don't like in an opponant is sheer size (in muscles), that forces me to move around a lot, and that wastes energy.

Hee-yah Chrisisall

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Saturday, June 15, 2024 3:12 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Rocky Marciano


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