FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Someone please break Joss' fingers! [spoiler]

POSTED BY: TOADSMOOTHY
UPDATED: Friday, December 31, 2010 15:04
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12035
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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:22 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


...so he can't write and destroy any more of his characters!

I just came to fully realize what he has planned for Inara and what she's been going through this whole time and I am not happy about it.

Of course, I'm not happy about him terminating Wash. Book was unfortunate, but I never really connected to him.

It seems Whedon is like a little boy. He sets out these wonderful characters like so many toy soldiers and then gleefully bashes them to hell.

I'm sure this is drama. It's supposed to make it seem more real if beloved characters get killed off but, if I want reality all I have to do is read the paper or just look around me. I don't think that's what we come to entertainment for. I'm not sure that's the purpose of entertainment. Even Greek tragedies had some moral attached. What are we supposed to learn from Wash's death?...avoid Reaver projectiles? Sudden, brutal, meaningless death of loved ones might be realistic but I'm not sure it's entertainment.

I know this world and these characters sprang from Joss' head but I'm not sure he can be trusted with them anymore. For me, Wash isn't dead. He fought at the last stand with the others and survived. And I refuse to accept that Inara must die.

EDIT: I'm kinda sorry I wrote this now. It was an emotional outburst after hearing about what's coming for Inara. I need to learn to wait before I post.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:34 AM

STORYMARK


Joss' fingers, and what he chooses to write with 'em are just fine by me.

I'm in the camp that believes Wash's death was an excellent storytelling choice because it hurt so much.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:42 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Wash's death did have meaning....of a sort. Remember, his terrific skills as a pilot enabled him to land Serenity safely after it was hit and disabled by the e.m.p. He saved all their lives with his miraculous landing, so it was quite Shakespearian for his heroic actions to be rewarded with an unexpected demise. No Browncoat liked seeing it, and to this day I have to turn away at that moment. But I do not ever bite the hand (Joss) that feeds me.








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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Haha.

I think I'll just watch and sit this one out. I've gotten into arguments myself about whether Wash dying was entirely necessary or not. There's points I can make on both sides, yes and no; It develops Zoe as a character, it's Joss' way vs. it was a shock tactic and people are maybe becoming jaded to that kind of thing.

The one thing I will give Joss is that even if he puts the characters through hell, he will correspondingly write one hell of a story.

(I have hopes for Inara too, but if it goes the other way, well, I'm kinda bracing myself for that)

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:05 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I'm hopeful Simon will figure something out and save her.

As with Wash, to me it all depends on how the story continues. If we get to see Zoe develop more as a character, than his death is good story telling. If the story continues and nothing much changes (which I doubt will be the case) than Wash dieing was a bunch of bull done for the shock value. I'm not big on excessive realism in my fantasy's. Things can work realistically, but each character in my mind has a purpose and a heroic (or villainous) destiny shouldn't just die because real people die.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:40 PM

BYTEMITE


Nicely said! That's kind of where I am and how I feel about it.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:40 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

I'm in the camp that believes Wash's death was an excellent storytelling choice because it hurt so much.



That seems kinda like my Dad repeatedly telling me:

"Join the Army! It'll make a man outta' you."

I decided that becoming a "man" wasn't worth a violent death in some meaningless ginned-up conflict on the other side of the world. ;)

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:43 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wash's death did have meaning....of a sort. Remember, his terrific skills as a pilot enabled him to land Serenity safely...



I know this'll sound lame but: Luke Skywalker got a parade, a medal and a kiss from a princess for his flying skills! George Lucas didn't impale him with a shard from the exploding Death Star! haha

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:47 PM

SPELLINGFAIRY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
If the story continues and nothing much changes than Wash dieing was...


then Wash dying

Quote:

I'm not big on excessive realism in my fantasy's.

fantasies.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:48 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Haha.
I think I'll just watch and sit this one out.



Just as well. I've embarrassed myself again.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:54 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
...If we get to see Zoe develop more as a character, than his death is good story telling...



That's like God coming to my wife and saying: "I'll give you a great career but I'll have to brutally kill your husband to do it."

Geesh! Maybe I should be worried!

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:06 PM

INVADERPET87


As long as River doesn't get killed off, I'm good.

This is the comic books right?

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:15 PM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.


Quote:

Originally posted by InvaderPet87:
This is the comic books right?


Nope, statement from Miss Baccarin.


Facts are stubborn things.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Nah, we've all engaged in this argument at some point or another, and it's a good one. People are all kinda divided on it.

I don't think anyone minds discussing it, just you didn't know the history of it.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:18 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by InvaderPet87:
As long as River doesn't get killed off, I'm good.

This is the comic books right?

"She understands. She doesn't comprehend."



>_>

<_<

Judging by Crystal, it could be either River, Mal, or Inara next. The symbolism surrounding all three of them is pretty substantial.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:23 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:

I'm in the camp that believes Wash's death was an excellent storytelling choice because it hurt so much.



That seems kinda like my Dad repeatedly telling me:

"Join the Army! It'll make a man outta' you."




Then you're missing the point.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:24 PM

MOOSE


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:

I know this'll sound lame but: Luke Skywalker got a parade, a medal and a kiss from a princess ...



That wasn't a big deal, it was like getting a kiss from his sister...

This 'Verse is Joss's, he can do whatever he wants to with it.

Doesn't mean I have to like it, though.


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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:25 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Wash's death did have meaning....of a sort. Remember, his terrific skills as a pilot enabled him to land Serenity safely...



I know this'll sound lame but: Luke Skywalker got a parade, a medal and a kiss from a princess for his flying skills! George Lucas didn't impale him with a shard from the exploding Death Star! haha



The part you're missing is that Luke is the main character. Mal and River.... still standing.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:25 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Originally posted by SpellingFairy:
Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
If the story continues and nothing much changes than Wash dieing was...


then Wash dying

Quote:

I'm not big on excessive realism in my fantasy's.

fantasies.



haha, yeah I'd love to blame my spelling on this temporary illness and distracting medicine, but I really am bad about it, and sometimes spell check points me in the wrong direction.

As for Toady, or Smoothy? which would you prefer? I think it's shiny that your bring this stuff up, beats the crap out of lurking and walking on eggshells. I'm only a few months old here, and too shy to start these discussions, but I enjoy entering them! lol

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:32 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Then you're missing the point.


haha I guess I am because I'm still in the dark! X)

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Let's go with TS, because that brings to mind some awesome poets and writers.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:35 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:


That wasn't a big deal, it was like getting a kiss from his sister...



haha This is true! Thank God he didn't slip her the TONGUE!!! hahaha

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:38 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:


The part you're missing is that Luke is the main character. Mal and River.... still standing.



He is in my book! "Ah! curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!" hehehe

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:44 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:


As for Toady, or Smoothy? which would you prefer?



Toady will catch my attention but either would be fine. :)

Quote:

I think it's shiny that your bring this stuff up, beats the crap out of lurking and walking on eggshells. I'm only a few months old here, and too shy to start these discussions, but I enjoy entering them! lol


Well, I've reached that magical age where I'm too old to give a shit about how stupid I sound.

Senility is the key. ;)

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:05 PM

CHRISISALL


Battlestar Galactica killed Serena; Star Wars killed Ben Kenobi & Biggs Darklighter. These seminal influences on Joss stuck.




The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:11 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


But Toadsmoothy.
You care so much because you know they could die. Were these plot points not played out you would not be as involved in the characters or their story.

Just watch the A-Team. After a handful of episodes you realise they're bullet proof and waiting for a story outcome becomes redundant because you know EXACTLY where it's going. Tension drops, interest in the characters drop and ultimately the story is less engaging.

If you take your characters into dangerous situations and expect your audience to follow those characters through those dangers then you have to respect the various possibilities of those dangers. So Kaylee being shot has to be loaded with enough reality to make you feel for her predicament or else it's all just meaningless.

Personally I'd prefer it if Joss' fingers remain unbroken...

Fellow knows how to churn out cracking stories.


Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:28 PM

STORYMARK


Excellent points.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:37 PM

MINCINGBEAST


I second the motion to break Mr. Whedon's fingers. Moreover, I propose an ammendment to extend the scope and reach of said motion. All of Mr. Whedon's digits must be broken. Most especially his toes. Maybe his nose, too.

I do not envision this methodical, and very severe breaking, as punishment so much as motivation.

Having seen, and read, Misery I suspect that such treatment is the only way to a) get Mr. Whedon to un-write Wash's death b) force Mr. Whedon to write lots of happy scenes of Mal and Inara smooching and c) keep the franchise around.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:51 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Battlestar Galactica killed Serena; Star Wars killed Ben Kenobi & Biggs Darklighter. These seminal influences on Joss stuck.




The laughing Chrisisall




Biggs Who?! :O

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:02 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
But Toadsmoothy.
You care so much because you know they could die. Were these plot points not played out you would not be as involved in the characters or their story...



I do understand your point I just don't agree with it *in my case.*

I watched the series before the movie and it never occurred to me that he would kill off one or more of them. Still, I found it engaging and fell in love with the characters. I could have watched a dozen seasons, until all the crew of Serenity were in diapers using walkers and I would have loved it. There's a comfort in knowing your fictional friends and heroes will always be around.

Perhaps I'm just simple-minded and I'm OK with that. I grew up watching Bonanza after all. Today's audiences may need the shock.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:09 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:

Biggs Who?!


Not a Star Wars fan I take it.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:18 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by mincingbeast:
I second the motion to break Mr. Whedon's fingers...to a) get Mr. Whedon to un-write Wash's death b) force Mr. Whedon to write lots of happy scenes of Mal and Inara smooching and c) keep the franchise around.



hahaha I dunno how much of this is tongue-in-cheek but I love it!!! :) We definately need snogging and perhaps petting! ...and Wash's death can be like one of those soap opera dream sequences! yeah yeah! ...and Firefly Forever gorrammit! X)

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:23 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Not a Star Wars fan I take it.



That guy?!! Shit, I had to look him up on Google Images to vaguely remember him. No man. A fan but not THAT deep of a fan! hahaha

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:38 PM

SPELLINGFAIRY


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
We definately need snogging


There is definitely no A in definite.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 5:24 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by SpellingFairy:
Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
We definately need snogging


There is definitely no A in definite.



I'll definAtely remember that! DefinAtely. :nods vigorously:

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 5:48 PM

GREENKA61


Ok. I am totally lost on the Inara dying thing. What...? Where did that come from? Somebody fill me in. Was that in the second comic book (the one I don't have)?

I do totally agree on their being more snogging, though. Perhaps if Inara showed Mal her guns....

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:16 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


greenka61, I'm copying from another thread:

Quote:

Originally posted by GWEK:
Apparently, Joss did mention it somewhere. Morena Bacarrin confirmed it at a convention, only after someone said that Joss had already spilled the beans.

“Wow! You're really putting me on the spot here. I could get into so much trouble for this, but . . .” said Morena Baccarin about Inara's Secret at Dragon*Con 2008. I don't think that Morena committed a sin against storytelling. She is telling us that there is a cliffhanger that most of us were unaware of, which makes the story better. (By the way, a cliffhanger is not a spoiler.)

Inara's fate is the cliffhanger. Since it's Joss Whedon's story, if he wants Inara to live, a cure will be found because it's Science Fiction. If he wants her dead, she dies before the Serenity Saga ends. I don't know which will happen, but I suspect Inara's fate has NOT been decided. We will have to wait for years to find out.

Knowing that there is something really big that hasn't happened, yet, will keep the audience interested while they wait for the story to continue. That is a great storytelling strategy Joss Whedon is using. An even better strategy would be for Joss to write that comic book NOW!

Morena spills the beans:



The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:38 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST


Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Quote:

I watched the series before the movie and it never occurred to me that he would kill off one or more of them. Still, I found it engaging and fell in love with the characters. I could have watched a dozen seasons, until all the crew of Serenity were in diapers using walkers and I would have loved it. There's a comfort in knowing your fictional friends and heroes will always be around.


Having read the support for the resurrection of Wash, I can safely say most of you are better off that the show was cancelled.


Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:42 PM

GREENKA61


Oh! This changes everything! Now I have to go back and rewatch the episodes again and rethink my assumptions.

Hmmm.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:56 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


[quote=TheSomnambulist] Having read the support for the resurrection of Wash, I can safely say most of you are better off that the show was cancelled.


kieyra wrote “Indistinguishable From Magic” to resurrect Wash. It was written the week Serenity premiered. River knows that Miranda wasn't the only secret the Alliance had. I think it very good for how quickly it was composed. Were Zack Whedon to add some hard science to that story, it would make a hardcover comic better than any other Serenity comic.
www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=5185
http://kieyra.livejournal.com/186086.html

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:21 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Oh! This changes everything! Now I have to go back and rewatch the episodes again and rethink my assumptions.


Doesn't it? :) Sad as I am for Inara, I really have to give Joss massive props for a crazy plot twist. And crazy good character revelations long after the fact. You can think one thing about Inara one day, then hear this, and have your entire view of her turned completely around.

Also: she is so AWESOME. I mean she was always cool because she's so spirited and willing to be her own person IMO. But this makes her even more awesome. Not only is she all that, but she's all that even though she's going through something so tragic. Now that takes all kinds of strength.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 12:11 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by greenka61:
I do totally agree on their being more snogging, though. Perhaps if Inara showed Mal her guns....



Perhaps if she surprised him while he was cleaning his guns again there would be an accidental discharge!

Well, that was a Jayne remark...

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Friday, December 17, 2010 12:20 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by greenka61:
Oh! This changes everything! Now I have to go back and rewatch the episodes again and rethink my assumptions.Hmmm.



Yeah, like the syringe she pulls out when the Reavers were near. I thought it was a suicide dose in case they were boarded by the Reavers. Now I'm thinking it could have been medicine for her condition.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 1:30 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Battlestar Galactica killed Serena; Star Wars killed Ben Kenobi & Biggs Darklighter. These seminal influences on Joss stuck.
The laughing Chrisisall


You really are a cruel bastard for making me think about Serena's unbearable death right now, and during the holidays! That's something that Boxey, Hatch, and I have never gotten over.








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Friday, December 17, 2010 1:57 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
I watched the series before the movie and it never occurred to me that he would kill off one or more of them.


I take it you've not seen Buffy or Angel. Or Dr. Horrible.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 2:01 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You really are a cruel bastard for making me think about Serena's unbearable death right now, and during the holidays! That's something that Boxey, Hatch, and I have never gotten over.




Me either.

GRRRRRRRRR



The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, December 17, 2010 2:38 AM

DMAANLILEILTT


Everytime I see that shot refered to as some kind of medicine being administed it just makes it seem like clumsy writing. For one thing it makes no sense in the context of the montage: Everyone else is preparing for the reavers and Inara is thinking "Gotta take my pills"?

Maybe he just setting up a deus ex machina.

"I really am ruggedly handsome, aren't I?"

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:02 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Doesn't it? :) Sad as I am for Inara, I really have to give Joss massive props for a crazy plot twist. And crazy good character revelations long after the fact. You can think one thing about Inara one day, then hear this, and have your entire view of her turned completely around.

Also: she is so AWESOME. I mean she was always cool because she's so spirited and willing to be her own person IMO. But this makes her even more awesome. Not only is she all that, but she's all that even though she's going through something so tragic. Now that takes all kinds of strength.

There was an expression my great grandfather used for referring to my excessively pessimistic great grandmother (who is still alive!): Crepe paper hanger. When somebody died in their rural tradition, black crepe paper streamers were hung in the home where the corpse was displayed. (That could be Mal Reynold's tradition, if Joss wanted anachronism) On this thread, I am noting an excess amount of pessimism about Inara's fate. But she is not living now in this burnt-out cigarette butt of the 20th century. In the 26th century, there is hope for her. It is too soon to start mourning and hanging the crepe paper for Inara.

Also, it is not inevitable that Joss will have her illness kill her. Joss might surprise us with another plot twist.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:20 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:


I take it you've not seen Buffy or Angel. Or Dr. Horrible.



Actually, I did watch Dr. Horrible and thought it was a hoot! Doogie Howser threw me a bit but that Nathan...what a card! But, when I see the word "Vampire" I react the same way my wife reacts to "Sci-fi." ...um, no interest. I probably should try a few episodes though.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:28 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:


Maybe he just setting up a deus ex machina.



hmmm It seems like I remember this talked about in a Shakespeare Studies class, 30 years ago! haha Maybe you need to translate into "Captain dummy talk?"

The suicide notion still makes more sense, or perhaps for other crew members like Kaylee who no one would want to see eaten alive. haha

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