FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Kaylee's Love Life

POSTED BY: TOADSMOOTHY
UPDATED: Thursday, December 16, 2010 17:38
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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:40 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Poor Kaylee's got it bad.

"For over a year I ain't had nuthin' between my nethers weren't run on batteries!"

hahaha Ouch!

As her exchange with Wash in "Heart of Gold" indicates, Kaylee is lonely and insecure and, as often happens, all that gets focused on sex. She mostly wants someone, Wash or Simon or someone to tell her she's pretty...and she's not embarrassed to ask for it.

Am I the only one who thinks Simon is wrong for her?

It's been my experience that opposites do attract and can produce some impressive sparks but, over the long run, compatibility makes for the sound relationship. Simon and Kaylee have nothing in common. Their backgrounds, interests, socio-economic status, their future goals, all are totally different. Simon wants off that ship, to return to his former life. Can you picture Kaylee in Simon's world? She would be miserable, as out of place as at the ball in Shindig. Eventually she would be an embarrassment, perhaps even a hinderance to him and he would regret it. The best one can hope for there is a hot fling (as indicated in the BDM) and they go their separate ways with some nice memories.

I am not entirely alone in this. Talking about another series, where her character has to choose between two men, one who promises hot sex and the other with whom she is more compatible, Jewel said she would choose the less sexy but more compatible guy.

Kaylee had more in common with the grease-monkey she was doing in the engine room. I mean, between the hot sex two people need something to talk about, right?...like grav-boots and such.

If Wash hadn't been married I kinda like him and Kaylee together. After all, he said he would take her "in a manly fashion" because he found her pretty. Their personalities, status and interests (the ship) are far more compatible. There is something balanced and comfortable in the idea of him in the bridge and her in the engine room. And I don't think him and Zoe were a great match. Love certainly and sparks but not much compatibility. Besides, she would always be joined at the hip with Mal.

I kinda like Kaylee and Jayne together. I know, that thought might turn some stomachs but I think Jayne cares about her. He kept watch as she was being operated on. He wanted to kill the man who shot her. Thats more concern than he showed any other woman. Sure he teases her, like one might do with a sister, but he doesn't mean any harm. I think she would be good for him, tame him as it were. And he wouldn't be the first wild lummox kept in check by a wife. Besides, he would go down protecting her. I like that idea.

If Jayne had been in that engine room with Jubal Early, Jayne would have torn him limb from limb.


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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:18 AM

JONGSSTRAW

We carry in our hearts the true country, and that cannot be stolen.


Seems to me that Jayne had ample time and opportunity to make his move on Kaylee long before Simon came on board. Must have been many long and lonely nights for both of them, alone in their bunks, but apparently nothing ever happened....or maybe it did happen a long time ago and we are never told about it. Jane sure seemed desperately concerned when Kaylee got shot in the Pilot, but the reason for that emotional display is never revealed.









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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:18 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:


Am I the only one who thinks Simon is wrong for her?



I think Simon might be able to help Kaylee validate her sense of self-worth, since she doesn't appear to have the ability yet to do that on her own for whatever reason.

Other than that, I have no particular opinion on the ship. I'm mostly a Mal/Inara shipper... which is why, you can imagine, I was so determined in our debate in the Gilded Cage thread. But, yeah, I did get a sense of you being a Mal/Nandi shipper there, which is consistent with your statements here.

I can't say I'm surprised, but I can be civil, see? :) We can all coexist around here.

One thing I'll say about the relationships, if you trade a canon Core x Rim for a Rim x Rim relationship, you have to be careful how you do it. If you're not careful, while a belief in having a similar background = stability is a perfectly fine and common sense approach, it can raise certain unfortunate implications about classism. The vague hints of Victorian England we get from some of the upper crust in Firefly makes this a little bit more pronounced.

Which, because I hate classism and other artificial wealth related social hierarchy nonsense, I kinda personally cheer for the opposite and unlikely couples, you know, to break glass ceilings and such. Plus the bickering is fascinating.

I actually toyed a little bit with putting some past Jayne x Kaylee in a fanfiction, but I changed it after people pointed out some inconsistencies to me. But I have nothing against Jayne x Kaylee, and nothing against Mal x Nandi.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:54 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Seems to me that Jayne had ample time and opportunity to make his move on Kaylee long before Simon came on board...



Maybe he just needed a little encouragement in that direction. Some guys are kinda slow upstairs, especially Jayne! haha The one thing Simon has is a modicum of intelligence, even though he doesn't "know how to talk to girls." But, as Inara pointed out, Simon doesn't know how to talk to anyone. I think the stick up his pigou runs right up his spine and is lodged in his brain. The only women Jayne is used to are whores. He's probably never had a girlfriend before. But, we know he loves his mother, and that's a start. I'd like to see him introduce Kaylee to his Mom some day. I'd bet they would get along famously. I think Jayne's a diamond in the rough...OK, VERY rough, but I think he might be worth the effort.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:10 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

I did get a sense of you being a Mal/Nandi shipper there, which is consistent with your statements here.



Well, I was in a marriage with someone very opposite to me. We attracted like magnets. There was love and massive fireworks but we fought constantly. Eventually we just wore each other out and divorced amicably. Several years later I found a woman with whom I have much in common, personality, background, interests etc. We've been together 18 years and seldom argue. So, I choose comfort over sparks in relationship matters.

Come to think on it, my wife reminds me a lot of Kaylee and my ex-wife reminds me of Inara. Interesting.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:46 AM

BYTEMITE


My parents argue every day and my dad's a relentless tease. They have nothing in common, they don't even really share similar interests, they aggravate each other constantly over little things, but they've been together 30 years.

Different strokes. *shrug*

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:03 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think Simon might be able to help Kaylee validate her sense of self-worth, since she doesn't appear to have the ability yet to do that on her own for whatever reason.



I hate to say it but I think I have to disagree here. Big surprise huh. haha

Kaylee's life was that ship and it was repeatedly made abundantly clear he had no respect for it. As she said to his face: "If you don't think much of this life you must not think much of them that choose it." The closest he came to praising her work was during a drunken night in Canton and that was just the mudder's milk talkin'.

Kaylee knows this relationship is hopelessly flawed. When they were alone in the room with the "alien" cow fetus Simon made it clear that the only reason he was interested in her is because she was the only available female in his life just then.

I can't see how any of this is going to help her self esteem. If anything this pretensious ass is making her feel worse about herself day by day. But, as often happens in sexually charged situations, people see the fault lines but charge ahead anyway only to have those faults destroy them later.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:19 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
My parents argue every day and my dad's a relentless tease. They have nothing in common, they don't even really share similar interests, they aggravate each other constantly over little things, but they've been together 30 years.
Different strokes. *shrug*



Yeah, I hear ya. My folks argued every day for over 50 years and died devoted to one another. But, I can't say they or my brother and I were happy about it. It was miserable. We wished they would divorce just to stop the fighting but we knew neither of them could emotionally survive apart. They came from an era when people just didn't divorce but lived their lives in turmoil and misery. Once they came to our house and started bickering at each other and I told them to leave, that we didn't do that in our home. So, I guess I have some strong feelings about it. But, everyone's situation is different. I just respect my wife too much. We have "discussions" but we never snipe at each other.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:51 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I can't see how any of this is going to help her self esteem.


Yeah, I know. The only reason I said what I did is because what I see as the reason Kaylee originally turned her eyes to him: he's a shuai gentleman from the core. Snatching him up probably would be pretty self-affirming for Kaylee... Unfortunately, things don't always turn out like that.

Which is why I've never necessarily thought they were "destined" or "soulmates" or anything. It has some potential MAYBE, but it's equally likely it won't go anywhere.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

But, everyone's situation is different.


Makes sense. If it had been upsetting for me, I'd probably feel the same way you do. But I always just got some entertainment out of it. Heck, I like to stir the pot.

We're a little dysfunctional.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:59 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:

Am I the only one who thinks Simon is wrong for her?

It's been my experience that opposites do attract and can produce some impressive sparks but, over the long run, compatibility makes for the sound relationship. Simon and Kaylee have nothing in common. Their backgrounds, interests, socio-economic status, their future goals, all are totally different.




I disagree with you for a variety of reasons.
1. Kaylee and Simon actually have a great deal in common - they are both "fixers" (him, people and her machines). They are both intensely compassionate people, both family-oriented, and both very giving, each in their way. Those are core qualities (and core values) that go beyond hobbies or other such interests. They are very compatible for each other, personality-wise.
2. As far as Simon wanting off the ship, there was another convo about this and how the fact that Simon is undergoing some culture shock is a bit of a hindrance up front, but Simon IS adapting, clearly throughout the series and film, and he is also learning to see the bright side of his new life, and he makes clear he thinks Kaylee is the best part of his new life. Kaylee is instrumental in helping Simon adjust, because frankly, he probably CAN'T go back, and he's learning to accept that.

Kaylee, I think, does not get enough credit for seeing the truth in people, and for being drawn to those good qualities. Take with Tracey, she was obviously drawn to him at first when she thought he was doing all he was for his family - note how she warms to him then. Kaylee likes people who are kind, selfless, and possess genuine courage and she sees those qualities in Simon which are what carries her past her "ooh shiny rich guy" initial attraction. Again, she's obviously going after something she knows is a good thing, fundamentally, and not just a shiny distraction, and its pretty patronizing to suggest Kaylee doesn't really know what she wants or needs. And knowing Kaylee, she's be the first person to tell you that, probably not in a very cheerful way.

Quote:

Kaylee's life was that ship and it was repeatedly made abundantly clear he had no respect for it. As she said to his face: "If you don't think much of this life you must not think much of them that choose it."

You totally misread that scene. Simon was VENTING, because his life was in the shiatter, he'd lost everything he'd ever had, known, or worked for, and the Captain had been harassing him all morning. It was pretty obvious it was not Kaylee he was putting down (or not intentionally) but Kaylee is very sensitive and read it differently. Over and over again in the series you see Simon display his respect for Kaylee, his admiration for her, and for her talents with engines. He specifically brings it up more than once. So you're way off here.

He may not like his current way of life, but he doesn't look down on those that have it - that was Kaylee's sensitive, knee-jerk reaction to an admittedly insensitive comment (and he deserved to get called out, and I think he realized that). And as I said before, over the course of the series he's adapting and growing...and frankly so is Kaylee.

Quote:

The closest he came to praising her work was during a drunken night in Canton and that was just the mudder's milk talkin'.
Actually that was a rare moment of uninhibited honesty. Simon is mostly focused on his sister and appears to make an active effort to not allow himself to get distracted, but Kaylee's breaking down those barriers, and this was a sign of that. As for her work, he compliments in in the pilot, watches her admiringly during Bushwhacked, and outright praises it for her again in the Message. So I don't know where you are getting that "he doesn't respect her work" thing from.

Quote:

Kaylee knows this relationship is hopelessly flawed.

I see no sign of that! ;p
Quote:

When they were alone in the room with the "alien" cow fetus Simon made it clear that the only reason he was interested in her is because she was the only available female in his life just then.

Simon got put on the spot. Pay attention to what he was saying to her right preceding that - that was Simon being wholly genuine and sincere, unprompted. But then she was all "Tell me more" and he practically started stuttering. He probably thought "you're the only girl in the world" was a good line! He likes her for HER though, and that's pretty obvious in the moments leading up to him being a doofus again. And from his behavior towards her in general.

Quote:

I can't see how any of this is going to help her self esteem. If anything this pretensious ass is making her feel worse about herself day by day. But, as often happens in sexually charged situations, people see the fault lines but charge ahead anyway only to have those faults destroy them later.

That's your take on it, but Simon is hardly a pretentious ass, nor does he look down on her. Quite the opposite. But Kaylee, while mature in many ways, is a tad immature about others - she doesn't pay attention to where Simon is coming from and often leaps to conclusions and reacts (as you did incidentally). She does, however, cool down afterwards, and seems to realize what Simon was really trying to communicate to her. Simon, I think, has a maturing effect of Kaylee, just as she is helping him adapt (and learn how to communicate, and opening his eyes to a different way of life).
They are very good for each other right now, and possibly into the future, although with Joss who knows.

As far as Wash goes, I could kind of see that maybe under different circumstances.

As far as Jayne goes, no. Kaylee has no sexual interest him at all, as evidenced by their interactions in the series and the comic books - she sometimes even reacts with disgust or disdain, which you don't see her do with anyone else. Partly because of that, while I'm open to the idea that they MAY have had a brief fling early on (and I would be shocked if Jayne didn't at least try to get her in bed once) I kind of think not, because Jayne really just doesn't seem to be her type. She likes them "pretty", it would seem.
I think she's fond of him in her way though, certainly, and I agree with you that Jayne at least has big brother feelings of affection towards her. Plus he wants to fark everything female that moves, which brings me to my next point-

Why are people always trying to domesticate Jayne? Let Jayne be Jayne! There's a reason he whores it up - he likes variety in women, he likes sex, and he likes it better with no strings attached. He's an independent, out for himself, free-wheeling guy - that's just who he is. Maybe way WAY WAY down the road, as he ages and changes, that will change too, and THEN maybe I could see the potential for there to be the possibility of potential potential ;) but that's not Jayne now, or anytime soon I'm guessing. Plus, he's not a giver, as Kaylee is, and you can't have a giver and a non giver in a relationship, that just leads to huge problems.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:14 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Jayne is an amusing character for me, but not necessarily an interesting one. I'm not a big fan of fanfics that make him a very deep of a character all of a sudden. Now, I think he could be a deep and interesting character, but it would have to be a gradual thing that happens over time. As is, Jayne likes women, money and guns, with guns probably being his favorite. It is nice seeing him gradually become more loyal to the crew and seeing them all become part of the family, but I see Jayne as tough, dumb, blunt and amusing and there is nothing wrong with that.

Don't ya think your being a little hard on Simon though? I mean, he just got there and is clearly having a difficult (and amusing) time adjusting. We can't be sure how Simon's really going to feel about his situation yet because he's still pretty new to it. The only thing we can be sure of is he will doctor anyone that needs it and is completely devoted to taking care of his sister. River likes Serenity, so they ain't likely leaving (again). 'Sides, who's to say he's even wants to want to return to his former life by the end of the BDM. I got the impression from the flash backs in safe, that Simon didn't exactly fit in with that crowd either. Maybe Simon's found something more valuable here on the raggedy edge than the embarrassingly large stacks of money he used to make. Since all of this is still rather new to Simon, it's hard to tell.

I would much prefer the Kaylee Simon couple to a Jayne Kaylee couple for entertainment if nothing else. You have all manner of potential for amusing fights between Simon and Kaylee. Simon's bound to say something stupid, or Kaylee could crowd him so badly he has to escape occasionally and actually bonds with the other guys. You go Jayne and Kaylee and... what? An overdone lame romantic triangle? Then you have to give Jayne real feelings and that just isn't as fun. I like Jayne funny, crude, and irrationally smug and superior about everything he does. I don't think Jayne would survive a healthy relationship and still remain amusing.

Concerning Kaylee's view in all this, I'm really not sure. I tend to think of Kaylee as adorably optimistic and a mechanical genius. I'm not entirely sure of much more than that. She has an infatuation with the shiny core doctor, but will it last once she's had him? He may look shiny and rich, but he's got nothing to offer 'sides himself. Maybe not even that if he thinks his sister needs his attention more. Still, as has been said, Kaylee and Jayne have had a couple years longer than Kaylee and Simon have to get together and they aren't. (or maybe they have in the past?)

Concerning the class issue, you can't kill the Cinderella fantasy! The verse is already dark enough, don't take away the power of love to cross these social economic backgrounds. In a verse were the bad guys win the war and oppress good folk just tryin' to keep flyin' you have to have some kind of hope for something shiny, even if it's a frivolous notion called 'love.'


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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:17 AM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:



I disagree with you...

You totally misread that scene...

So you're way off here...

That's your take on it...




Yep. Everyone has their own opinions.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:21 AM

FEARTHEBUNNYMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Quote:

Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
Quote:



I disagree with you...

You totally misread that scene...

So you're way off here...

That's your take on it...




Yep. Everyone has their own opinions.



Which is why I made a point to back mine up with evidence from the show;)

But yes, I like Firefly b/c there's such a rich story and characters there, people get such different things out of it, which is fun.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 12:10 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Jayne is an amusing character for me, but not necessarily an interesting one. I'm not a big fan of fanfics that make him a very deep of a character all of a sudden...



I'm not saying turn him into another Socrates. Just grow him enough morals so he loses the urge to sell out his friends for cash! hahaha

Quote:

It is nice seeing him gradually become more loyal to the crew and seeing them all become part of the family...


He still wants to turn the Tams off the boat, without the same hesitation Mal has. Difference? Mal has a sense of moral responsibility which, if Jayne does it is still rudimentary.

Quote:

but I see Jayne as tough, dumb, blunt and amusing and there is nothing wrong with that.


I really like Jayne! Actually, I'm more like Wash and guys like Jayne used to bully me at school, but I like him nonetheless! hahaha

Quote:

Don't ya think your being a little hard on Simon though?...


No. ...hahaha

I hope the Tams can enter a witness protection program where he can practice medicine and she can be crazy ad infinitum. hahaha I've never been able to warm to him and, as Jayne says, River "disturbs my calm."

Quote:

'Sides, who's to say he's even wants to want to return to his former life by the end of the BDM. I got the impression from the flash backs in safe, that Simon didn't exactly fit in with that crowd either.


Actually, examining the fu*ked-up relationship between the elder and younger Tams is the most interesting aspect of their story now.

Quote:

Maybe Simon's found something more valuable here on the raggedy edge...


eh, maybe. I guess I'm of the school of thought that people don't change, not essentially. He will always be a pampered rich boy at heart. Unless Joss convinces me otherwise.

Quote:

I would much prefer the Kaylee Simon couple to a Jayne Kaylee couple...


Perhaps you're right. I would rather see Kaylee in a relationship where she is appreciated by someone more like herself. I think she deserves to be happy. I know there's no drama in that but I'm neither a writer nor a critic.

Quote:

I don't think Jayne would survive a healthy relationship and still remain amusing.


Again, you're probably right. I guess I just see Jayne as this big lummox, old Jaye to everyone else, but doting on Kaylee like a schoolboy. I know that's lame.

Quote:

Kaylee and Jayne have had a couple years longer than Kaylee and Simon have to get together and they aren't...


Are we sure it's been that long? In the BDM she says it's been over a year since she's had sex not more, and I assume that refers to Serenity's first mechanic she did in the engine room. I'm not sure when in the timeline Jayne switched sides and joined the crew.

On Kaylee's intentions, I think she's just desperate for romance and has limited choices. When Tracey came on board she was ready to strip and mount him! The only reason Simon and Kaylee are together is because of these same limited choices.

Quote:

you have to have some kind of hope for something shiny, even if it's a frivolous notion called 'love.'



It's been my experience that love does not conquer all. Star-crossed lovers are surely as rare as Klingons in this 'Verse.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 1:40 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Are we sure it's been that long? In the BDM she says it's been over a year since she's had sex not more, and I assume that refers to Serenity's first mechanic she did in the engine room. I'm not sure when in the timeline Jayne switched sides and joined the crew.


I was under the impression that the BDM happened 2 months after 'Objects in Space' and I thought the flashbacks showed Kaylee at lease a few years ago, but I don't remember that well. And besides, this is free spirited Kaylee. I'm sure she's gotten some on shore leave before, probably hasn't since the series started on account of the Tams making everything a mite more dangerous and/or her infatuation with the young doctor.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:21 PM

SHINYSEVEN2


Let's hear it for Mal/Kaylee. They both love Serenity and both want to stay out in the Black forever. Mal and Inara do NOTHING but hurt and insult each other. Simon never wants to hurt Kaylee's feelings, he just completely fails to understand her, and she completely fails to cut him any slack.

Mal is NOT Kaylee's father or older brother--at the time of the series, I figure she's about 19 and he's about 32.

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 5:30 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by shinyseven2:
Let's hear it for Mal/Kaylee...



"Now something about that is just downright unsettling."

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Thursday, December 16, 2010 5:38 PM

TOADSMOOTHY


Quote:

Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
...And besides, this is free spirited Kaylee. I'm sure she's gotten some on shore leave before...



haha Yeah, I caught her and Book having it off behind some crates at Eastdown Docks!

...and all he gave her for the privilege is some strawberries! hahaha

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