FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Map of the Verse discussion

POSTED BY: JEWELSTAITEFAN
UPDATED: Monday, April 29, 2024 22:33
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Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I think I see what you're saying, and how you see what I was saying.
I don't have a problem with your view.
An additional possibility for calculation (since we're trying to simplify things) is something I just thougth of. Consider if Red and Georgia were dually orbiting each other, without White's presence. The barycenter woulod still be White's position. Each of Red and Georgia require adequate velocity to not have orbit decay, to maintain gravitational distance.
Now add in White Sun, and the velocity required to not have Georgia or Red fall into White's grav well.
Should we just add the 2 velocities to approximate the real world?

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Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:06 PM

CITIZEN


I reality the barycentre would be shifted toward Georgia because it is more massive.

In our simplified terms (assuming that the masses of Red Sun and Georgia were equal), the Barycentre of their theoretical binary system, would be at the position of White Sun.

Assuming we keep the orbits as they are, and just solve for the three masses, you get an orbital velocity of 8260m/s.

For curiosities sake I ran a few simulations of variations of the White Sun, Red Sun, Georgia trinary system to see how they came out.

White Sun's orbit is in Yellow, Red Sun's is Red, Georgia's is Blue:
Georgia orbiting White Sun alone

Red Sun orbiting White Sun alone

Georgia and Red Sun orbiting White Sun, assuming balanced masses

The orbits using figures given


Realistically the orbit is completely unstable. It's somewhat stable if we assume the masses of Georgia and Red Sun systems cancel out, in which case we get an exaggerated elliptic for both stars centred on White Sun. Since these are orbiting at the same mean distance from the centre of Gravity, they should be at the same velocity, and therefore shouldn't collide, even though their orbits cross.

A quick word on the instability. Since Georgia is more massive, the barycentre of White Sun, Red Sun and Georgia, will lie between White Sun and Georgia. Red Sun will then have a slower orbital velocity, because it's distance is greater and the apparrent mass is the same.

The result is that the bary centre gradually wanders closer to Georgia, and away from Red Sun, it's a feedback mechanism that sees Georgia and White Sun become a closely looping unstable binary system, and Red Sun ejected from the system altogether. Note this isn't because the bodies are being acted on by gravity from different masses, but from different distances.

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Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:58 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I can understand that Red and Georgia cannot have stabel orbits around White, being different masses, according to astrodynamics.
Let's go with the fictional concept of a stable orbit. What do you think is the best guess for velocity and duration for Red & Georgia? Do you think Kalidasa and Blue Sun orbital calculations should consider the mass of all three to be the central body mass, while ignoring the effects of nearer Georgia and Red, or just consider White to be the sole central mass for the calculation?
What figures do you think are best, for the sciency version of figures?

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Monday, June 15, 2009 1:39 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I can understand that Red and Georgia cannot have stabel orbits around White, being different masses, according to astrodynamics.
Let's go with the fictional concept of a stable orbit. What do you think is the best guess for velocity and duration for Red & Georgia? Do you think Kalidasa and Blue Sun orbital calculations should consider the mass of all three to be the central body mass, while ignoring the effects of nearer Georgia and Red, or just consider White to be the sole central mass for the calculation?
What figures do you think are best, for the sciency version of figures?


I think it would probably be best to ignore the difficulties, and assume that the Georgia and Red Sun system's gravity cancel out, (since they're on opposite sides of the system), and that only White Sun's gravity is pertinent.

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Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Based upont the revised information above, we can now review the itineraries of the Verse.

Let's start with BDM Serenity.
Lilac to Beaumonde to Haven to Training House to Haven to Miranda to Mr. Universe's place.

Beaumonde in 15th orbital ring around Kalidasa, which is 121Au from White Sun. Beaumonde is about 13.4Au from Kalidasa Sun, so Beaumonde's farthest distance from White Sun is about 134.4Au.

Lilac, second moon on New Canaan in 2nd orbital ring around Blue Sun, which is 180Au from White Sun. New Canaan is about 2.39Au from Blue Sun, so the nearest distance to White Sun that New Canaan and Lilac get is about 177.6Au.
Therefore the shortest distance that Lilac and Beaumonde can get is about 43.2Au, or about 23-30 hours at max Serenity acceleration.

Haven, 1st moon on Deadwood in 7th orbital ring around Blue Sun. Deadwood is about 14.0Au from Blue Sun, so nearest disance to White Sun would be 166Au. Shortest distance from Beaumonde to Haven would be about 31.6Au, or about 20-26 hours at max Serenity accel/decel.

Miranda orbiting Burnham around Blue Sun isn't much distance from Haven. Miranda about 3.9Au from Burnham, and Burnham about 23.4Au from Blue Sun (8th orbital ring). So nearest that Miranda gets to Haven is about 5.5Au and farthest apart is about 41.3Au (about the saem as Lilac to Beaumonde closest range).

So, does this seem reasonable? Or is the Beaumonde distance out of wack? Does it seem reasonable that it took a day to get from Lilac to Beaumonde, and another day to get back to Haven (a short ways from Lilac)?
I didn't get that impression from film and scripts, how about you?
The travels to and from Training House are not a problem, nor are trips to and from Miranda.
Lemming has admitted that not all of the Map of the Verse is vetted within the series and BDM travel itinerary, so should we decide that this placement of Beaumonde in the Kalidasa System is one of these anomolies?
It would seem that if Beaumonde was in the Blue Sun system, or at least the same system as either Lilac or Haven, then the travel tiems would seem more in line with what the BDM showed.
Anybody else?

One wrinkle to consider is the upgrades to Serenity after TLB and before BDM. Apparently the proceeds from the fencing of the Lassiter paid for all the Serenity upgrades, like more blinking lights around the cockpit, and the new mule. Did they include speed/performance upgrades? Is their travel time quicker now? If so, it's also possible to consider one of the moons of Dragon's Egg as a
training House location.


Still seems clear that Beaumonde location is out of tolerance, it should be in Blue Sun System, based upon all BDH references to it.
Also, wanted to point out a reference I keep forgetting.
In Serenity Vis Comp (written by some Joss guy), on pg 114 Jayne says "Not one day ago" Mal was ready to get rid of River. This is after Training House, referring to Maidenhead on Beaumonde. So then from Beaumonde to Haven (and hours spent there) to Training House takes less than a day, and certainly less than 2 days. This line does not end up in the screen version.
There is also River's line on Miranda, that it will take 4 hours to get to Mr Universe's place from Miranda - this line also does not end up on film.
From Beaumonde in Kalidasa System to Mr. Universe's Comm Station is about 240Au distance, and adding a flyby of Haven in Blue Sun System makes a minimum of 420Au distance. Even if Serenity were able to travel at the Speed of Light, and achieve that velocity very quicky, that's still about 55-60 hours of travel (or 2.5 days). Not even counting all the hours of screen activity. Take a "couple hours" each way from Haven to Training House, this makes 60-65 hours of travel, with Speed of Light Travel. If only half the Speed of Light, this is 115-125 hours. This does not mesh with the time period written by Joss in Jayne's line.
I do understand this is not the greatest reference, but it does show the intent of time displacment intended by Joss.
If Beaumonde is located in Blue Sun System, all these discrepancies disappear and dissolve.


While watching CSTS this weekend past, I noticed a line which left me baffled about how I've missed it all these times. After the Barnswallow, Simon says we'll get off, and Mal says you can get off at Beaumonde, in 10 hours time.
This means from Lilac in Blue System to Beaumonde is 10 hours. In the Red Sun system, Mal said it takes 10 hours from Jaingyin to Greenleaf in Safe, while Book is bleeding to death (implying max speed). At this rate, 10 hours from Lilac cannot even get to Burnham, and certainly cannot get out of Blue Sun system. So in accordance with all other indicators, this further shows that Beaumonde is in the same system as Lilac, Haven, Training House, Miranda, and not opposite the verse from Mr Universe (which Kalidasa is). All these other locations are in Blue Sun, except Mr Universe, and so Beaumonde is misplaced in Kalidasa system.

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Wednesday, August 12, 2009 9:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Just announced today, astronomers have found the first Retrograde Planet, orbiting in the opposite direction of it's star's rotation.
Named WASP-17, it has half the mass of Jupiter but twice the size.

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Wednesday, September 30, 2009 10:53 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


It looks like I have forgotten about Space Bazaar from Message, and the empty rock from Trash. They feel by the wayside and I forgot to get back to them.
Empty rock had gravity enough for Mal and YoSaffBrig to fight and not fly off planet, and there was some vegitation I think, so terraforming had been done. "Empty" must have been a relative term rather than absolute, for the terraforming crews alone made up 5,000 people. But apparently not so populated that Alliance has a base there. And, of course, not far from Bellerophon.

Space Bazaar does not really look like Core to me, anybody else? Tracey & Womack likely came from the Silverhold Colonies, and the Bazaar is 2 days ride from St Albans, so maybe the Bazaar is in Red Sun system.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 5:24 AM

BYTEMITE


The barren moon might be one of the moons of Santo in the Qin Shi Huang system, both are sparsely population, considered. Tethys in particular only has 27,000 people. The Qin Shi Huang system is a protostar system in the White Sun system, but being that the crew has visited Santos before, apparently it's not close enough to the core to give them much alarm.

Or, it could have happened on some rock out in the Halo asteriod belt that someone tried to terraform, then abandoned.


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Thursday, October 1, 2009 9:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
The barren moon might be one of the moons of Santo in the Qin Shi Huang system, both are sparsely population, considering. Tethys in particular, only has 27,000 people. The Qin Shi Huang system is a protostar system in the White Sun system, but being that the crew has visited Santos before, apparently it's not close enough to the core to give them much alarm.

Or, it could have happened on some rock out in the Halo asteriod belt that someone tried to terraform, then abandoned.



Here are my thoughts so far on the "empty rock" of Trash.
The episode spans 72 hours from meeting Monty on the empty rock to Mal nekkid in the desert. I conjure about 2hours on Bellerophon, doing the heist, latching YoSaff into the garbage, locating nekkid Mal in the desert. I conjure about 2 hours of Mal with Monty, then Serenity arrives, then Mal interacts with the crew before re-introducing her to the crew where she explains her gig and they start to travel with some direction. So roughly estimate 68 hours of travel time to arrive on Bellerophon, planning (for the heist) could be done enroute.
Accel and deccel to 2.5Au/hr cruising speed is about 20 hours covering 25Au, or else about 17 hours to cover about 20Au. Another 48 hours at 2.5Au/hr gets another 120Au (120Au + 25Au = 145Au). Or 51 hours at 2.5Au/hr is 127.5Au (127.5 + 20Au = ~147Au). Total of 145-147Au distance, unless my conjuring is off - anybody think I estimated times wrong?

If it is about 145Au to get from the empty rock to Bellerophon, then Red Sun system and Georgia System (and the Core) are both too close (max of 105Au from Bellerophon). If Bellerophon is in the quadrant near Georgia System, then Kalidasa System is centered 140Au away, so that's a good candidate, and Blue Sun would be about Centered about 160Au away, so Deadwood could be about 145Au. If Bellerophon is nearer to Red Sun System, then Blue Sun is too far away, and Kalidasa is too close, so we have just narrowed the obrital position of Bellerophon.

So now to look in those for low-populated rocks which are terraformed.

If the preceding episode was OiS (original episode sequence), then they went to New Melbourne about 3 days after booting Jubal. So Red Sun System was where they were, and Kalidasa is next nearest, and our top candidate for Empty Rock locale.
If the preceding episode was War Stories (rearranged episode sequence), then they were at Ezra at the center of Georgia System, and so next nearest would be Blue Sun System, and our top candidate for Empty Rock location.

It'll be a few days for me to look up those, so input for those would be cool. I'm assuming it's not large, as well as being sparsely populated, so the moons like you found in Core would be about right, just find the same thing in other systems. Would not be asteroids - they would not be terraformed with all those collisions in the asteroid belts.

Unless somebody can point out errors in my reasoning.

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Thursday, October 1, 2009 11:21 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Similar reasoning for Space Bazaar.
Mal says it's not a 2 day ride to St Alban's after leaving the Bazaar.
48 hours makes it about 95-100Au distance. Georgia System is too far away (minimum of 122Au), as is Blue Sun System. Kalidasa could be, with 75Au maximum distance and conjuring that "2 days" would mean 40 hours. Also, the far side of the Core, near Persephone, could be about that distance for Albion, Ariel, Bellerophon, Valentine.

Last episode was Trash, where they left Bellerophon, so that area seems a good candidate.
By "that area" I mean Albion, Ariel, Valentine if they are on the same side of White Sun as Bellerophon, and the space around them or Bellerophon. I am clarifying this in June 2010, sorry for the delayed edit.

Any problems seen there?

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Friday, October 2, 2009 6:52 AM

BYTEMITE


Ah, didn't realize there was 72 hours. Been a while since I've seen the episodes, gave my DVDs away and haven't gotten them back, plus I want to keep the episodes fresh.

I agree with your reasoning in that case. It brings up a good question, for the sake of the science, should we use the original show order or the rearranged?

There should be a preference for canon, I assume, and the rearranged version is now canon. But, on the other hand, the rearranged version could mess up the science.

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 8:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ah, didn't realize there was 72 hours. Been a while since I've seen the episodes, gave my DVDs away and haven't gotten them back, plus I want to keep the episodes fresh.

I agree with your reasoning in that case. It brings up a good question, for the sake of the science, should we use the original show order or the rearranged?

There should be a preference for canon, I assume, and the rearranged version is now canon. But, on the other hand, the rearranged version could mess up the science.


The superscript in the transition from nekkid Mal to Mal & Monty on empty rock said "72 hours earlier" as I recall.

I should have clarified my explanation of the nearest system to Red Sun system.
OMR requires that Triumph and Beaumonde be at opposite ends of the verse.
If we take as accurate that Map of the Verse has Beaumonde in Kalidasa, then Kalidasa is opposite of Red Sun, and is closest to Georgia system. This assumption disregards all the BDM evidence that Beaumonde is actually in Blue Sun system, not in Kalidasa.
This assumption still requires that Blue Sun is almost opposite the verse from Kalidasa, due to the proximity of Miranda and Mr Universe. So Blue Sun is closer to Red Sun under this scenario.
If we understand that the evidence of BDM shows Beaumonde is in Blue Sun system, and not Kalidasa, then the OMR evidence has Red Sun (Triumph) opposite the verse from Blue Sun, and Kalidasa system is the closest to Red Sun.

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 10:00 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


While reviewing the other items, I happened to suss out where Saffron went in OMR after leaving Serenity on Shuttle II. The rustic luxury place.

In OoG the shuttle has limited range in the flashback - can break atmo from a wide orbit. When using them as lifeboats, they can't get anyplace, but the heat and air will last longer than what Serenity has. Figuring Wash spent a couple hours doing th nav computations after leaving their last stop, apparently the shuttles have not the capabitlity to travel back there.
In OMR Mal says he found Saffron's hideout because it is the only place the shuttle could have reached. So the location is isolated by distance from other nearby bodies (terraformed anyhow).

The last episode was Jaynestown where they left Higgin's Moon, which is in Red Sun system. They are heading to Bernoulli by the end of the week, so that coud be anyplace in the verse. In OMR they are heading to Beaumonde, and they left Triumph. It will take 5 days of travel, according to their schedule before Saffron altered it. This means they are going to the opposite side of the verse to require 5 days, and Triumph must be on the outside (away from the White Sun) of the Red Sun, about 87 Au from White Sun. They must cut across Red Sun system, and after about 18 hours will have travelled about 33-35 Au.
After getting plastered the previous night, Mal & Co board Serenity and depart the next morning. Saffron waits until most are asleep, and Mal is ready to go to bed, so this is likely about 18 hours after leaving Triumph.
33-35Au does not get them into the Core, it just gets Serenity about tot he other side of Red Sun system. There is only one inhabitable body in Red Sun which is not within shuttle distance of another inhabitable body, and that is Jubilee. Some confusion might arise because Jubilee is listed in the White Paper as uninhabitable, but the Map of the Verse clearly labels it Terraformed and Inhabited. It's moon is not yet terraformed, so no other body near it is within Shuttle range. The farthest distance Triumph and Jubilee are apart is about 32Au.

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 11:26 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Ah, didn't realize there was 72 hours. Been a while since I've seen the episodes, gave my DVDs away and haven't gotten them back, plus I want to keep the episodes fresh.

I agree with your reasoning in that case. It brings up a good question, for the sake of the science, should we use the original show order or the rearranged?

There should be a preference for canon, I assume, and the rearranged version is now canon. But, on the other hand, the rearranged version could mess up the science.


Other fans can use the info in whatever way they choose, and we can inform them under which conditions each answer is correct. I understand some fanfic writers use this information, and it is for them to decide which is canon as applied to the fic they are working on.

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Sunday, October 4, 2009 11:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

So now to look in those for low-populated rocks which are terraformed.

If the preceding episode was OiS (original episode sequence), then they went to New Melbourne about 3 days after booting Jubal. So Red Sun System was where they were, and Kalidasa is next nearest, and our top candidate for Empty Rock locale.
If the preceding episode was War Stories (rearranged episode sequence), then they were at Ezra at the center of Georgia System, and so next nearest would be Blue Sun System, and our top candidate for Empty Rock location.

It'll be a few days for me to look up those, so input for those would be cool. I'm assuming it's not large, as well as being sparsely populated, so the moons like you found in Core would be about right, just find the same thing in other systems. Would not be asteroids - they would not be terraformed with all those collisions in the asteroid belts.

Unless somebody can point out errors in my reasoning.


To list the candidates and compare to current perceptions, I'll list some population densities. Since Earth is 2/3 covered by water, I'll divide by 3 to use the figures as comparison.
To start, there is desert in Arizona, I think.
Arizona = 21.5 per sq km, or 7.2 comparative.
Montana = 2.5 per sq km, or .8 comparative.
Wyoming = 2.1 per sq km, or .7 comparative.
Alaska = 0.46 per sq km, or .15 comparative.

The candidates: Name, pop, diameter, pop density.
Kalidasa.
Wadd, 20,000; 1,905 km; .0018
Isabel, 60,000; 1,000 km; .0191
Illat, 47,000; 1,450 km; .0071
Huan Lo, 75,000; 1,030 km; .0225

Blue Sun.
Haven, 78,000; 3,012 km; .0027
New Omaha, 50,000; 1,025 km; .0151
Glynis, 1,000; 990 km; .0003
Sahadeva, 8,000; 1,392 km; .0013
Bhima, 46,000; 1,160 km; .0109
Blackwood, 48,750; 1,001 km; .0155
Ugarit, 46,000; 1,123 km; .0116

Georgia.
Ahnodie, 525,000; 1,000 km; .1671
Eris, 38,000; 1,321 km; .0069
Branson's Mark, 1,317; 1,397 km; .0002

Red Sun.
Farraday, 200,000; 2,158 km; .0137
Dora, 250,000; 1,430 km; .0389


In Kalidasa, Wadd seems the best candidate due to low density, and position of outer orbit of an outer orbit body.

In Blue Sun, it seems Mal would not act that way on Haven, nor the near moon New Omaha. The top candidates would be Glynis and Sahadeva, the outermost 2 orbits of Dragon's Egg, itself an outer orbit body of the system.

In Georgia, Eris is off Hera, and Branson's Mark is off Shadow, both orbiting Murphy, so it seems unlikely Mal would act like he's never been there before.

So the best candidates, by far, for the Empty Rock in Trash, is Wadd in Kalidasa (original episode sequence), or in Blue Sun would be Glynis or Sahadeva (for rearranged episode sequence). Glynis would be the greater candidate by having the farthest outward orbit, and small size.

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Monday, October 5, 2009 1:32 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Other fans can use the info in whatever way they choose, and we can inform them under which conditions each answer is correct. I understand some fanfic writers use this information, and it is for them to decide which is canon as applied to the fic they are working on.



I'm one of them, so thanks. :)

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Monday, October 5, 2009 9:48 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Other fans can use the info in whatever way they choose, and we can inform them under which conditions each answer is correct. I understand some fanfic writers use this information, and it is for them to decide which is canon as applied to the fic they are working on.



I'm one of them, so thanks. :)


You are welcome. That is why I post this stuff instead of just figuring it out for myself and keeping it to myself.
I also hope it can enhance the enjoyment of the Map of the Verse product.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:25 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I keep forgetting to look this up:
In the Train Job, Hands of Blue claim they traveled so many million miles. Assuming this is from Osiris to Ezra.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:19 AM

BYTEMITE


It could be that the names of the moons hold some sort of significance, in regards to trying to determine which might be important locations to episodes.

Wadd is another name for a Sumerian moon god named Sin. Guess what the Hebrews personified him as.

The other possibility is a little more weak, the Devas in Hindu are angellic/god figures, and Sahadeva was an important one, but it's likely the sanscrit word deva influenced the semite and gentile words for devil.

I agree with you on Osiris, that's Blue Sun's new headquarters after they moved from Sihnon, but I thought Paradiso was on Regina. In the RP manuals it's listed as a world that has a problem with Bowden's. There might be something on the Serenity Blue Ray, too.

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Saturday, June 26, 2010 12:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:

I agree with you on Osiris, that's Blue Sun's new headquarters after they moved from Sihnon, but I thought Paradiso was on Regina. In the RP manuals it's listed as a world that has a problem with Bowden's. There might be something on the Serenity Blue Ray, too.


I do not propose that Bowden's is not a problem on Regina.
Likewise, I do not propose that only one world in the verse has a problem with Bowden's. Therefore, we need not assume that the world Paradiso and Hancock are on, in great proximity to Ezra if not Ezra, could only be Regina.

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Saturday, June 26, 2010 4:17 PM

BYTEMITE


Yeah, except none of the other planet descriptions I've seen include that mention. I think it was included for a reason.

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Monday, March 10, 2014 7:07 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


bump

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Sunday, May 18, 2014 9:33 PM

ELECTRICLION


Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.

How about this? Think of Kalidasa on the opposite side of its orbit around White Sun, if not actually placing it there. Remember that it's going to be there in 665.5 years anyway. And this makes sense for a number of reasons:

1. It's the star's existing orbital path. It's still 121 AU from White Sun. This just puts it 59 AU from Blue Sun, instead of 301 AU from Blue Sun.

2. The actual geography of the Verse doesn't change. Remember that the whole Verse is in constant motion. While these large and very large orbits might as well be thought of as fixed for story/episode/RPG campaign purposes, the bodies in these orbits are moving through their orbits.

3. Relevant to #1 and #2, none of the planets' orbits will change. No changes will need to be made to TVIN, other than perhaps the picture on the cover. But then that could remain and we (Yellowjacket and I) could add a page or two in the first part (before White Sun) or at the end before the Afterword, describing Kalidasa's "new" position.

4. Right now, with the Map configuration, Blue Sun isn't just on the Rim. It's practically in interstellar space. It's so far from the rest of the systems that ships must have one hell of a fuel capacity if they want to travel from Blue Sun to any other Verse destination.

5. Since Beaumonde is an outer planet of Kalidasa, it's much closer to Blue Sun through half its orbit cycle (23 of 46.06 years). For "story" purposes, Beaumonde's position is essentially fixed. Would it help the travel estimates if we said it was at its closest approach to the Blue Sun system at the time of "the present?"

How does that sound?

J. Chris Bourdier
The Verse In Numbers

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Monday, May 19, 2014 7:33 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


I don't have my Map handy. Can you check what is the minimum distance from Beaumonde to Lilac or Haven? With Beaumonde at max orbital distance from White Sun and Lilac/Haven at closest distance to White Sun? And also from Beaumonde to Miranda? BDM had BDH traveling Lilac to Beaumonde, then to Haven, then Miranda, then Mr. Universe.

IIRC Mr. Universe is still in between them.

From Mal's line in BDM they need 10 hours to get from Lilac to Beaumonde, at velocity/acceleration possibly less than max - not really a hurry, right? In Safe, 10 hours is the time needed to get to Greenleaf at max accel/decel (Book is bleeding out). Is your new Beaumonde position near enough to Lilac to be less than or approximately close to this distance?
Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.

How about this? Think of Kalidasa on the opposite side of its orbit around White Sun, if not actually placing it there. Remember that it's going to be there in 665.5 years anyway. And this makes sense for a number of reasons:

1. It's the star's existing orbital path. It's still 121 AU from White Sun. This just puts it 59 AU from Blue Sun, instead of 301 AU from Blue Sun.

2. The actual geography of the Verse doesn't change. Remember that the whole Verse is in constant motion. While these large and very large orbits might as well be thought of as fixed for story/episode/RPG campaign purposes, the bodies in these orbits are moving through their orbits.

3. Relevant to #1 and #2, none of the planets' orbits will change. No changes will need to be made to TVIN, other than perhaps the picture on the cover. But then that could remain and we (Yellowjacket and I) could add a page or two in the first part (before White Sun) or at the end before the Afterword, describing Kalidasa's "new" position.

4. Right now, with the Map configuration, Blue Sun isn't just on the Rim. It's practically in interstellar space. It's so far from the rest of the systems that ships must have one hell of a fuel capacity if they want to travel from Blue Sun to any other Verse destination.

5. Since Beaumonde is an outer planet of Kalidasa, it's much closer to Blue Sun through half its orbit cycle (23 of 46.06 years). For "story" purposes, Beaumonde's position is essentially fixed. Would it help the travel estimates if we said it was at its closest approach to the Blue Sun system at the time of "the present?"

How does that sound?

J. Chris Bourdier
The Verse In Numbers


Not changing the subject at all. That's what this thread is for, for everybody to learn what we can from the evidence.
I'm curious, did you read this whole thread?

1. If 59Au is the correct distance.... Looks like it would take about 13.5 hours at Serenity's maximum acceleration rate to travel about 29Au, and then the same to decelerate, making it about 27 hours IF Serenity can hit velocity of 3.7Au/hr or about half the Speed of Light. 27 hours does not really conform to Mal's quote of 10 hours (on Lilac, telling Simon he'll be able to get off Serenity on Beaumonde in 10 hours time).
To conform to 10 hours, it looks like about 2 - 2.4Au distance with Serenity achieving 2.4Au/hr, or about 1/3 Speed of Light.

4. I disagree. Fuel is only needed for acceleration, up to max speed, which is thought to be about 1/3 Speed of Light. Same fuel is needed for deceleration. In between is coasting. IIRC the chart/table I made at the start of this thread (actually, Jan 23 post, updated with Feb 17 post and march 9 post) showed max velocity after about 4-4.5 hours of max acceleration. Another 4-4.5 for deceleration would give us 8-9 hours. So any distance or travel time over that would be the same fuel if maxxing the accel/decel. Less fuel would be used for more relaxed accel/decel, I would conjure. Speed of Light is about 7.2Au/hr, so max speed of Serenity is conjured at about 2.4Au/hr.

From what I posted earlier in this thread, 10 hours would not be enough to get to Burnham, let alone out of the Blue Sun System, from Lilac. Is Lilac farther than 2.4 Au from the outermost orbit of Blue Sun System? Again, I don't have my Map handy. If Lilac is not that close to the outermost orbit, then that would argue for Beaumonde to be within Blue Sun, not just nearest to it while still in Kalidasa. Does this make sense to you?

BTW, thanks for making the effort to rectify this item.
Did you ever find a location for Bernoulli (where Mal was heading by the end of the week in Jaynestown)?

Also, we might venture to think Serenity's upgrades after sale of The Lassiter increased her acceleration since Safe. But it seems that would still be pushing the parameters of the performance envelope and travel times/distances.

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Monday, June 2, 2014 1:05 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Not to change the subject, but Yellowjacket has been telling me about a discussion concerning Beaumonde, and its position in the Verse -- namely that many think it should be in Blue Sun instead of Kalidasa. He asked me what I thought about moving it to Blue Sun. Well, I can't. That's an authority level way above me. If it was a fan-created world, it would just be a matter of getting the creator's permission. But Beaumonde is an "official" world that was created by Joss & Co., placed by QMx, and approved by Joss & Co. It would take that level of approval to relocate it -- and that would throw a serious monkey in the wrench of the set that is the Map, the Atlas, and TVIN.



The only way to match what is in the movies is to move Beaumonde to the Blue Sun System. The map can't be changed because that is a licensed and it is being sold. However why can't TVIN and the Atlas be changed and an entry be added to explain the mistake on the map?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 2:44 PM

ELECTRICLION


1. The actual distance is about 46.15au. That's measuring from Beaumonde's orbit to Blue Sun, assuming that we've moved Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit around White Sun. Remember that the plane of the Blue Sun system is perpendicular to the plane of the Verse. While there will be some small variation due to parallax, all the Blue Sun planets can be thought of as being the same distance from the rest of the Verse.

4. A ship that was making very long journeys would want a higher cruising speed than one making shorter journeys. Also remember that the space between individual star systems will be relatively empty, and therefore safer at higher speeds. This means that the boost and braking phases of the voyage will be longer, or the thrust will be higher. That translates into more fuel being used. Hence, a larger fuel capacity.

I'm at work, so I don't have the Atlas of the Verse, Vol. 1 in front of me, but I remember Beaumonde being one of the worlds in it. Apologies if I'm incorrect. But assuming I'm right, moving Beaumonde from Kalidasa to Blue Sun will not only break the connection between TVIN and the Map, but it'll break that between TVIN and the Atlas as well. The Verse In Numbers will become a completely standalone document with no ties to canon. I don't have the authority to make that call. That's a Joss & Tim decision. Of course, if they approve it, I'll move Beaumonde where-ever they want it to be.

I want to write science fiction. I've wanted to since I was a teenager. But I never finish anything because I get bogged down in details. How big is the ship? How far is it from pilots' quarters to the fighter bay? What would you see if you were looking out the starboard landing deck? What's the room layout of the captain's quarters? What is the combination of the captain's safe in This Side of Paradise? How many people and what supplies will fit in a lifeboat? What will happen to a Kryptonian if he's without sunlight for a week? What do the main characters floating van and motorcycle look like? What can the ship's autodoc not do? And so on...

For me, these questions have to be answered before I start writing. So I spend ungodly amounts of time making notes, drawing deck plans, and making incomprehensible tables of figures -- and I don't write much. (For all of you, TVIN is a 350+ page book with beautiful page layouts designed by Yellowjacket. For me, TVIN is nothing more than a monster spreadsheet.) Joss and Tim don't have this problem. When they come to a detail, they make it up on the fly. If they can't remember that detail later on when they need it again, they make up a new one, and move on. In episode 1 of Serenity, Beaumonde is 10 hours from Lilac. In episode 7, it'll be a week. In episode 20, an hour. In episode 30, they'll be on opposite sides of the Verse, and months apart. And in episode 35, they'll be on opposite sides of the Verse, but only two hours apart for one of Serenity's shuttles. Joss has said (I think it was Joss) that the Serenity moves at "the speed of plot." Well, we tried, but we can't map "plot."

I think the best move is still to move Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit so that it's between White Sun and Blue Sun. That will cause the least disruption to the Verse's current layout. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Kalidasa to the worlds of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Blue Sun to those of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel Times and distances between the worlds of Blue Sun and those of Kalidasa will become reasonable.

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Thursday, June 5, 2014 7:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
1. The actual distance is about 46.15au. That's measuring from Beaumonde's orbit to Blue Sun, assuming that we've moved Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit around White Sun. Remember that the plane of the Blue Sun system is perpendicular to the plane of the Verse. While there will be some small variation due to parallax, all the Blue Sun planets can be thought of as being the same distance from the rest of the Verse.


Let's accept 46Au for now. That would make it about 24-27 hours at Serenity's maximum accel/decel rate.
Blue Sun would be only similar relative distance when it is positioned perpendicular to White Sun, which would be what? 500 years or so?
It would need to be close to the plane of the other orbits to be positioned closest to Kalidasa (or farthest, depending upon Kalidasa's position).
Quote:


4. A ship that was making very long journeys would want a higher cruising speed than one making shorter journeys.


Can't cruise higher than 7.2Au. About 23-28 hours is what Serenity would need to get near that, at her max rate of accel/decel, assuming she could attain a velocity near that. That covers a distance of 81-100Au. That leaves still a bunch of coasting time to get across the Verse before starting to decelerate. In this instance, anything between 200Au and the width of the Verse is using the same amount of fuel.
Quote:


Also remember that the space between individual star systems will be relatively empty, and therefore safer at higher speeds. This means that the boost and braking phases of the voyage will be longer, or the thrust will be higher. That translates into more fuel being used. Hence, a larger fuel capacity.



I think the best move is still to move Kalidasa through 180 degrees of its orbit so that it's between White Sun and Blue Sun. That will cause the least disruption to the Verse's current layout. Travel times and distances from the worlds of Kalidasa to the worlds of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same.


Kalidasa to Core, ok. Kalidasa to Georgia or Red will change to opposite, unless you bring Georgia and Red 180 degrees along with Kalidasa.
Quote:


Travel times and distances from the worlds of Blue Sun to those of White Sun, Georgia, and Red Sun will all remain the same. Travel Times and distances between the worlds of Blue Sun and those of Kalidasa will become reasonable.


From Blue Sun to Core, Red, Georgia, agreed no change.

46 Au from Beaumonde to Blue Sun worlds of Haven, Training House, Lilac for 24-27 hours doesn't exactly jive with 10 hours.

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Saturday, June 7, 2014 12:32 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The linkys I posted in the OP for The Verse In Numbers do not seem to get me there.
Does anybody have a current valid linky for TViN?

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Saturday, June 7, 2014 3:59 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The linkys I posted in the OP for The Verse In Numbers do not seem to get me there.
Does anybody have a current valid linky for TViN?

http://pics.fireflyprops.net/TVIN-2.01.pdf
Version 2.01 - July 2012 - Updates and corrections made to the ‘Timeline’. ‘KD-FA’ added to Dragon’s Egg L4 (Castaways) and numerous asteroids added to ‘Halo’ of the White Sun System

http://pics.fireflyprops.net/PACE-ARC-2.0.pdf
Astrogation Reference Charts carefully extrapolated from J. Chris Bourdier’s White Paper

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, June 8, 2014 11:51 AM

ELECTRICLION


You do know that according to QMx, the fastest ships in the Verse are the great big Dortmunders, and they can go only 10% of light? Serenity's top speed is supposed to be somewhere around 7%. The arks from Earth made the 40 LY journey in 120 years because they were frakking hauling some gorram ass at an unheard-of 34% of light.

And I need to remind you that for all the focus on Beaumonde, the only way to make Beaumonde-to-Lilac work is to break something else.

AND... Beaumonde is too populous to work as a rim world. The entire population of the Blue Sun system is only 15 million after the loss of Miranda.

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Monday, June 9, 2014 6:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The linkys I posted in the OP for The Verse In Numbers do not seem to get me there.
Does anybody have a current valid linky for TViN?

http://pics.fireflyprops.net/TVIN-2.01.pdf
Version 2.01 - July 2012 - Updates and corrections made to the ‘Timeline’. ‘KD-FA’ added to Dragon’s Egg L4 (Castaways) and numerous asteroids added to ‘Halo’ of the White Sun System

http://pics.fireflyprops.net/PACE-ARC-2.0.pdf
Astrogation Reference Charts carefully extrapolated from J. Chris Bourdier’s White Paper



Thanks a bunch!

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Monday, June 9, 2014 6:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
You do know that according to QMx, the fastest ships in the Verse are the great big Dortmunders, and they can go only 10% of light? Serenity's top speed is supposed to be somewhere around 7%. The arks from Earth made the 40 LY journey in 120 years because they were frakking hauling some gorram ass at an unheard-of 34% of light.

And I need to remind you that for all the focus on Beaumonde, the only way to make Beaumonde-to-Lilac work is to break something else.


Knew the Arks went at 1/3 SoL, from Serenity Companion. QMX must have provided that data after we were trying to conjure current potential. Thanks for the info.
After 300-400 years, space travel went backwards to slower. Putting a propulsion system from an Ark into a tiny Operative speedboat would not increase it's max velocity? Hard to believe. Not saying you have quoted wrong, but that seems retarded unless some external or artificial reason.

I have not been trying to fix Beaumonde. I was under the impression you were attempting to search for a remedy, or compromise, or such.
I had pointed out the errors in the data so that those interested could follow along with the inconsistencies, and decide how much they wish to invest in the various possibilities, and to help them avoid pitfalls in their fanfics. This thread used to have over 10,000 views, and I had been told it was partly due to writers using it as reference for their storymaking. I have told them I am fine with that, and they were welcome to use anything we resolved here. Or not.

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Monday, June 9, 2014 7:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


With the reference of TViN (thanks to second for linky), I see that the closest distance Beaumonde can get to Lilac is about 44Au. This is not possible in the 10 hours Mal claims, using episode Safe as the canon data, and assuming Serenity is capable of 1/5 to 1/6 Speed of Light. Top velocity is now claimed to be about 0.50Au/hr, so I will need to recalculate with this factor.

Lilac is second moon of New Canaan.
Closest distance Beaumonde can be to Haven is about 32Au. Haven is first moon of Deadwood.
Closest Beaumonde can ever be to Miranda is about 23Au. Miranda is first orbiting body of Burnham.

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Monday, June 9, 2014 8:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The claim of Serenity's top speed of 7% of Speed of Light (or 0.50Au/hr) is incompatible with canon of episode Safe.

In Safe, to get from Jaingyin to Greenleaf at top speed while Book bleeds to death, will take 10 hours.
Travel distance between these 2 planets, assuming not passing through the center of the Red Sun, is between 6.375Au and 7.312Au.
IF Serenity had instantaneous acceleration to top speed of 0.50Au/hr, then everybody here can clearly see that in 10 hours Serenity would cover 5.0 Au, which falls far short of 6.37Au - that would take at least 12.76 hours.
This claim is preposterous. Sorry.


Even if max velocity of Serenity was 10% of Speed of Light (0.72Au/hr), she would need near instantaneous acceleration to travel 6.375Au in 10 hours.
Unlikely.

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Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:52 PM

ELECTRICLION


I offered a compromise, to move Kalidasa around in its orbit so that it was between White Sun and Blue Sun, which would cut travel time from months to days, and your response was that it still wasn't 10 hours. My digression into why I never finish anything I try to write was an attempt to illustrate that Joss didn't create a map first. He pulled the number out of thin air. No, the number I gave you wasn't 10 hours. It will never be 10 hours unless I break something else to give that one nonsense number priority.

It's like the Constitution class blueprints that came out 6 years after Star Trek was cancelled. Franz Joseph tried to get things close. He had hours of interviews with GR. But in the end, he had to acknowledge that close was the best he could do. You conviced me: Kalidasa is in the wrong place. Not just for Beaumonde, but for the other worlds as well. Moving the system to the opposite side of its orbit makes a lot of sense. Blue Sun is still out on the Rim, but it's not so horribly isolated. It also puts the worlds of Kalidasa in reach of the Reavers. Considering that the Reavers reached as far as Whitefall, it makes sense that they should occasionally savage the worlds of Kalidasa.

The arks got to 34% of light by having monstrous engines, huge fuel supplies, and by boosting for years, instead of minutes or hours. It's my personal belief (nothing official to back it up, just my opinion) that the arks even dwarfed the Dortmunders. I use as my comparison the first stage of a Saturn V rocket compared to the Service Module. Granted that it's not a very good analogy, but it illustrates the difference between an interstellar drive and an interplanetary drive. Just imagine what you could do if the entire Saturn V rocket (fully fueled first stage included) was already in orbit.

As an aside: I've never liked the "When Worlds Collide" plot point where a tiny little ship goes and 99.9999999% of the planet's population is left to die. So I envision the trip from Earth as being a full-scale evacuation with the entire society's resources, moving tens or hundreds of millions of people, instead of tens of thousands. So these arks would be monstrous, like hollowed-out asteroids or some such. And there would be hundreds or thousands of such ships, along with unmanned cargo ships and automated terraformers sent ahead of the main fleet. It's estimated that our asteroid belt has somewhere around a million asteroids that are roughly 100-150 miles long. Neither Firefly, nor Serenity, has mentioned anything about any form of suspended animation, so I'm interpreting these ark as carrying living populations as well as millions upon millions of frozen ova, both of people and animals.

The ark engines still exist. No technology has been lost. In fact it's reasonable to assume that engine technology has improved in the past few hundred years. But does it make sense to use a full tractor-trailer level engine to move a lunchbox's worth of cargo amoung houses on the same street? Between neighborhoods in the same city? Sure, the big rig is a lot faster once it gets to cruising speed, but a bicycle or R/C drone could make multiple little deliveries while the big beastie is still accelerating.

I realize that my analogies may be more than a little silly, but right now, that's the best way I can think of to illustrate my point.

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Tuesday, June 10, 2014 7:34 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
I offered a compromise, to move Kalidasa around in its orbit so that it was between White Sun and Blue Sun, which would cut travel time from months to days, and your response was that it still wasn't 10 hours. My digression into why I never finish anything I try to write was an attempt to illustrate that Joss didn't create a map first. He pulled the number out of thin air. No, the number I gave you wasn't 10 hours. It will never be 10 hours unless I break something else to give that one nonsense number priority.

It's like the Constitution class blueprints that came out 6 years after Star Trek was cancelled. Franz Joseph tried to get things close. He had hours of interviews with GR. But in the end, he had to acknowledge that close was the best he could do. You conviced me: Kalidasa is in the wrong place.


I don't think I said Kalidasa is out of place. All the other bodies in Kalidasa seemed to fit all of the data from BDS, BDM, scripts, etc, or at least before Serenity only capable of 7% SoL - now practically nothing fits. Like Pilot Serenity - would have taken about 10 days to get to Whitehall from Persephone, not 2 days.
Quote:


Not just for Beaumonde, but for the other worlds as well. Moving the system to the opposite side of its orbit makes a lot of sense. Blue Sun is still out on the Rim, but it's not so horribly isolated. It also puts the worlds of Kalidasa in reach of the Reavers. Considering that the Reavers reached as far as Whitefall, it makes sense that they should occasionally savage the worlds of Kalidasa.

The arks got to 34% of light by having monstrous engines, huge fuel supplies,


Again, they don't need huge fuel supplies - just accelerate, then coast for 120 years, and decelerate. Other than collision avoidance, quantity of fuel should have been more closely proportional to top speed, or cruising/coasting speed.
Quote:


and by boosting for years, instead of minutes or hours. It's my personal belief (nothing official to back it up, just my opinion) that the arks even dwarfed the Dortmunders. I use as my comparison the first stage of a Saturn V rocket compared to the Service Module. Granted that it's not a very good analogy, but it illustrates the difference between an interstellar drive and an interplanetary drive. Just imagine what you could do if the entire Saturn V rocket (fully fueled first stage included) was already in orbit.

As an aside: I've never liked the "When Worlds Collide" plot point where a tiny little ship goes and 99.9999999% of the planet's population is left to die. So I envision the trip from Earth as being a full-scale evacuation with the entire society's resources, moving tens or hundreds of millions of people, instead of tens of thousands. So these arks would be monstrous, like hollowed-out asteroids or some such. And there would be hundreds or thousands of such ships, along with unmanned cargo ships and automated terraformers sent ahead of the main fleet. It's estimated that our asteroid belt has somewhere around a million asteroids that are roughly 100-150 miles long. Neither Firefly, nor Serenity, has mentioned anything about any form of suspended animation, so I'm interpreting these ark as carrying living populations as well as millions upon millions of frozen ova, both of people and animals.

The ark engines still exist. No technology has been lost. In fact it's reasonable to assume that engine technology has improved in the past few hundred years. But does it make sense to use a full tractor-trailer level engine to move a lunchbox's worth of cargo amoung houses on the same street? Between neighborhoods in the same city? Sure, the big rig is a lot faster once it gets to cruising speed, but a bicycle or R/C drone could make multiple little deliveries while the big beastie is still accelerating.

I realize that my analogies may be more than a little silly, but right now, that's the best way I can think of to illustrate my point.


Cop cars have truck engines, truck cams for low torque, and some performance trucks have sports cars transmissions. Hard to believe a Dortmunder power plant in a tiny sporty Operative cruiser would not go a bunch faster - or anything with less mass. I don't expect any Firefly to be all too fast, but I expect others to be a bunch faster.

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Wednesday, June 11, 2014 10:22 AM

ELECTRICLION


Faster than anything we can do today, definitely. Hundreds or thousands of times faster, but even a thousandth of the speed of light is screaming. Numbers in the 50%+ of light are the kind of magical speeds you see on Star Trek -- and that's just the impulse engines. Engines in Firefly are brute force engines. Serenity's side engines aren't much more than really advanced jet engines. Her main drive is a fusion powered pulse drive. But in all cases, it's still a matter of throwing something out the back so that the "equal and opposite reaction" pushes you forward. As your forward speed approaches the speed of the ejected matter (adjusted for mass), the efficiency of the drive decreases, requiring either stronger thrust, or longer acceleration times. Eventually, you'll reach a point where it's just not cost effective to keep the engine running.

In order to reach 50% of the peed of light, you either have to throw out a mass equal to that of your ship at that speed, or less mass at significantly higher velocities until you reach that speed. But if your thrust remains constant, your level of acceleration will decrease as the mass of the ship approaches the speed of your reaction mass.

I'm sorry, but I think we're back to "the ships move at the speed of plot."

When I said that you had convinced me that Kalidasa was in the wrong place, I just meant that you've shown me that Beaumonde is mentioned too prominently in relation to Browncoat activities to be on the opposite side of the Verse from Blue Sun. I'll get with Yellowjacket about putting together a few pages to add to the new release of TVIN, along with some estimated travel times. As with all else in TVIN, the Atlas, and the Map, use or ignore as you see fit. Your enjoyment of the universe is the most important part.

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Wednesday, June 11, 2014 7:47 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Faster than anything we can do today, definitely. Hundreds or thousands of times faster, but even a thousandth of the speed of light is screaming. Numbers in the 50%+ of light are the kind of magical speeds you see on Star Trek -- and that's just the impulse engines. Engines in Firefly are brute force engines. Serenity's side engines aren't much more than really advanced jet engines. Her main drive is a fusion powered pulse drive. But in all cases, it's still a matter of throwing something out the back so that the "equal and opposite reaction" pushes you forward. As your forward speed approaches the speed of the ejected matter (adjusted for mass), the efficiency of the drive decreases, requiring either stronger thrust, or longer acceleration times. Eventually, you'll reach a point where it's just not cost effective to keep the engine running.

In order to reach 50% of the peed of light, you either have to throw out a mass equal to that of your ship at that speed, or less mass at significantly higher velocities until you reach that speed. But if your thrust remains constant, your level of acceleration will decrease as the mass of the ship approaches the speed of your reaction mass.

I'm sorry, but I think we're back to "the ships move at the speed of plot."

When I said that you had convinced me that Kalidasa was in the wrong place, I just meant that you've shown me that Beaumonde is mentioned too prominently in relation to Browncoat activities to be on the opposite side of the Verse from Blue Sun. I'll get with Yellowjacket about putting together a few pages to add to the new release of TVIN, along with some estimated travel times. As with all else in TVIN, the Atlas, and the Map, use or ignore as you see fit. Your enjoyment of the universe is the most important part.


So if the Arks could chuck stuff out the back at more than 1/3 SoL, surely after hundreds of years, the best Alliance can buy could do the same. Why would nothing else be able to approach 1/3 SoL?

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Thursday, June 12, 2014 1:46 PM

ELECTRICLION


I didn't say they couldn't do it. I said that the arks had huge fuel supplies, and boosted for years.

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Friday, June 13, 2014 8:58 AM

ELECTRICLION


If you want to get numbers happy on the subject, you can start with the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation:

Delta v = v(e) ln (m0/m1)

Delta v = change in velocity
v(e) = exhaust velocity
ln = natural logarithm function, or approx 2.718
m0 = starting mass of the ship (including fuel)
m1 = Mass of the ship after boosting (minus the fuel burned)

Simply stated, if you want to move forward at 5 miles/sec, you have to throw out a mass equal to the entire mass of your ship at 5 miles per second, or half your ship's mass at 10 miles/sec, or a quarter of your ship's mass at 20 miles/sec, and so on. The best exhaust for very high speeds is light itself because the light is moving at the speed of light. It just possesses so little mass that it'll take thousands or millions of years to get up to speed.

As a kid, I was excited when I first learned this because that meant that every time I turned on a flashlight, I was igniting a rocket engine powered by light.

The shape of your engine is importat because the faster your exhaust leaves the ship, the less reaction mass you need to get the same boost in speed. We've been using the bell-shaped deLaval nozzles for our rockets for decades because the shape accelerates the exhaust particles up to supersonic speeds. This design is great for a chemical rocket, but I have no idea what sort of shape would be used to get exhaust speeds up to measurable fractions of c.

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Friday, June 13, 2014 9:00 AM

ELECTRICLION


If I remember correctly, the Traveler RPG has these equations already simplified to a form that's easy to punch out on a calculator. Just plug in your starting numbers, and they'll spit out the result at the end.

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Saturday, June 14, 2014 8:13 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
As a kid, I was excited when I first learned this because that meant that every time I turned on a flashlight, I was igniting a rocket engine powered by light.

The closest Rocket to a glowing Firefly engine is this one:
http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/support/researching/aspl/vasimr.ht
ml

The company engineering that engine is here:
www.adastrarocket.com/aarc/VASIMR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Astra_Rocket_Company
Plasma Sensors Glowing Red Hot in Rocket Exhaust



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, June 14, 2014 2:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
If you want to get numbers happy on the subject, you can start with the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation:

Delta v = v(e) ln (m0/m1)

Delta v = change in velocity
v(e) = exhaust velocity
ln = natural logarithm function, or approx 2.718
m0 = starting mass of the ship (including fuel)
m1 = Mass of the ship after boosting (minus the fuel burned)

Simply stated, if you want to move forward at 5 miles/sec, you have to throw out a mass equal to the entire mass of your ship at 5 miles per second, or half your ship's mass at 10 miles/sec, or a quarter of your ship's mass at 20 miles/sec, and so on.


This formula defeats you claims of limited velocities. Your explanation states movement, or speed, but the formula defines acceleration, or change in velocity. So if you are at 10% Speed of Light, and you produce more thrust, not even as much as 10%, than you will continue to accelerate. Without checking to much, I can agree with this formula you provided, assuming it applies to the drive you specified. But your explanation is opposite of these facts, and there is no max acceleration other than approaching the limit of Speed of Light itself.

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Saturday, June 14, 2014 2:24 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
You do know that according to QMx, the fastest ships in the Verse are the great big Dortmunders, and they can go only 10% of light? Serenity's top speed is supposed to be somewhere around 7%. The arks from Earth made the 40 LY journey in 120 years because they were frakking hauling some gorram ass at an unheard-of 34% of light.



This sounds preposterous.
If Dortmunder is fastest at 10%, then the little speed racers or chase craft that come out of it to chase Serenity or others would immediately fall behind the mother craft, and never be able to catch back up until Dortmunder decelerated, and the little craft all would have run out of fuel and life support by the time that happened. All chase craft would be essentially discharged chaff or waste, and all pilots would be on suicide missions. Who can believe that is correct?

What canon reference do you have for this 7% and 10% data?
Firefly?
Serenity?
Official Companions (authored by Joss)?
The Verse in Numbers?
Where is the canon source?

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Monday, June 16, 2014 10:48 AM

ELECTRICLION


Your velocity isn't limited by your engine. It's limited by economics and fuel supply. IF you had an unlimited amount of time and an unlimited amount of fuel, you could accelerate up to within a small fraction of the speed of light. But you don't have either. Your engine is at its most efficient when your speed is 0. As your speed increases, the efficiency of your engine decreases. Remember Newton's law.

If your ship masses 1000 tons, and you want it to go 10 miles/second, you have to throw 1000 tons of propellant mass out the back at 10 miles/sec. Once you're at 10 miles/sec, however, your propellant mass has to be moving at greater than 10 miles/sec, or else, its more like just leaving mass in your wake. You get some speed boost but not much.. So your top speed is really limited by the speed of your propellant mass relative to your own.

I see what you're doing here. You're saying that if you have fuel, you should be accelerating. You aren't taking into consideration the mass of your propellant or the exhaust velocity. You know what? Go ahead. It's another one of those little things that if you go in too deep, you'll discover that it wouldn't work anyway.



I named my source in the very first sentence: "... according to QMx..." I never said anything about Joss, Tim, or any other document source. But those numbers are what the travel times in the "Atlas of the Verse, Vol. I" are based on.

There is a throw-away line in the Firefly pilot, "Serenity," that would seem to back this up. When Serenity runs from the Dortmunder in the beginning, and the commander is faced with catching Serenity or going to the distress signal... Remember his answer when the crew member asks if he should continue deploying the gunships: "They'd never catch us in time." This suggests that the bigger ships can really move if they need to. It also suggests that the gunships are very short range, about like a shuttle.

The gunships would only be left behind if the Dortmunder was under acceleration. If she was cruising, the gunships would start with the bigger ship's current velocity. Their smaller engines would enable them to maneuver as usual, but they wouldn't have enough power to shed the velocity imparted on them by the Dort. But, yes, if the Dort was under acceleration when she deployed her gunships, they would fall behind and not be able to catch up.

The real problem with that scene is another one of Joss' throwaway numbers that he didn't think about. The signal is supposed to be coming from a personnel carrier 13 klicks (or kilometers) ahead. But 13km in space is a naked-eye-object. The commander should have raised his head slightly, looked out the front window, and said, "Where? I don't see it."

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Monday, June 16, 2014 8:56 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
Your velocity isn't limited by your engine. It's limited by economics and fuel supply. IF you had an unlimited amount of time and an unlimited amount of fuel, you could accelerate up to within a small fraction of the speed of light. But you don't have either. Your engine is at its most efficient when your speed is 0. As your speed increases, the efficiency of your engine decreases. Remember Newton's law.

If your ship masses 1000 tons, and you want it to go 10 miles/second, you have to throw 1000 tons of propellant mass out the back at 10 miles/sec. Once you're at 10 miles/sec, however, your propellant mass has to be moving at greater than 10 miles/sec, or else, its more like just leaving mass in your wake.


Does Newton define outside a gravity field, like Earth?
Anyway, this contradicts your previous formula. CHANGE IN VELOCITY is equal to multiplication of factors including velocity of ejecta. If you are at 10 miles/sec in a vacuum and you eject no more, are you saying you slow down? Does not ejecting at 5 miles/sec INCREASE your VELOCITY, or positively CHANGE your VELOCITY? Ejecting more propellant at 10 miles/sec should still CHANGE your VELOCITY at the same rate, otherwise the prior formula you quoted would have a starting velocity or current velocity included in the formula. It does not, from what I saw, correct?
Quote:


You get some speed boost but not much.. So your top speed is really limited by the speed of your propellant mass relative to your own.

I see what you're doing here. You're saying that if you have fuel, you should be accelerating. You aren't taking into consideration the mass of your propellant or the exhaust velocity. You know what? Go ahead. It's another one of those little things that if you go in too deep, you'll discover that it wouldn't work anyway.



I named my source in the very first sentence: "... according to QMx..." I never said anything about Joss, Tim, or any other document source. But those numbers are what the travel times in the "Atlas of the Verse, Vol. I" are based on.

There is a throw-away line in the Firefly pilot, "Serenity," that would seem to back this up. When Serenity runs from the Dortmunder in the beginning, and the commander is faced with catching Serenity or going to the distress signal... Remember his answer when the crew member asks if he should continue deploying the gunships: "They'd never catch us in time."


It's not really a throwaway line, it is critical to the plot direction. Serenity is going the opposite way, Dortmunder is going to the fake SOS signal, that's why the gunships can't go in the opposite direction at Serenity's velocity and have fuel to get back to the mothership - that was the entire point of the Crybaby. If your claim that the gunships were not as fast as the mothership, then this situation would be the case every single time, not just when an evading ship is heading away from the fake signal.
Quote:


This suggests that the bigger ships can really move if they need to. It also suggests that the gunships are very short range, about like a shuttle.

The gunships would only be left behind if the Dortmunder was under acceleration. If she was cruising, the gunships would start with the bigger ship's current velocity. Their smaller engines would enable them to maneuver as usual, but they wouldn't have enough power to shed the velocity imparted on them by the Dort. But, yes, if the Dort was under acceleration when she deployed her gunships, they would fall behind and not be able to catch up.

The real problem with that scene is another one of Joss' throwaway numbers that he didn't think about. The signal is supposed to be coming from a personnel carrier 13 klicks (or kilometers) ahead. But 13km in space is a naked-eye-object. The commander should have raised his head slightly, looked out the front window, and said, "Where? I don't see it."


Is Atlas of the Verse a sale item? or an online linky?

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:56 AM

SAKURA


I really enjoyed what you had to say, and more than that. Thank you


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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:56 AM

SAKURA


I really enjoyed what you had to say, and more than that. Thank you


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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 10:06 AM

ELECTRICLION


JSF, if you're going to quote my emails, please quote the relevant part. Throwing my entire email up there is just wasting space.

I did not contradict my previous formula. All I said was that if you start with a big boost, you'll get a big acceleration. Any smaller boost will also increase your speed. It just won't be as much. The same rules apply whether your ship is in a gravity field, or at a speed of 0 in space. In fact, the explanations above are assuming a speed of 0 (starting) with no gravity field present. I'm just talking about the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation and Newton's laws, which are all very basic.

Anything you throw out the back will increase your speed. If you stand at an open rear-facing port and throw out a baseball (ala "Defying Gravity") you will get a positive change in speed. It will just be very small.

I said nothing about braking or slowing down.

The "Atlas of the Verse, Vol I" is a commercially available product:

http://store.qmxonline.com/Atlas-of-The-Verse_p_86.html

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:07 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
The claim of Serenity's top speed of 7% of Speed of Light (or 0.50Au/hr) is incompatible with canon of episode Safe.

In Safe, to get from Jaingyin to Greenleaf at top speed while Book bleeds to death, will take 10 hours.
Travel distance between these 2 planets, assuming not passing through the center of the Red Sun, is between 6.375Au and 7.312Au.
IF Serenity had instantaneous acceleration to top speed of 0.50Au/hr, then everybody here can clearly see that in 10 hours Serenity would cover 5.0 Au, which falls far short of 6.37Au - that would take at least 12.76 hours.
This claim is preposterous. Sorry.


Even if max velocity of Serenity was 10% of Speed of Light (0.72Au/hr), she would need near instantaneous acceleration to travel 6.375Au in 10 hours.
Unlikely.



Mal might be estimating about 10 hours. He could be rounding 12.76 hours down to 10. Only River would really be so exact as to call it 12.76 hours.

I don't really have anything we could use to quick-patch the Beaumonde thing though. Moving it to the other side of it's orbit is a start, but 10 hours is a pretty set in stone number. And at these speeds relativity isn't really going to shave off much time.

Could they have used a grav slingshot to increase their velocity instead of just engine acceleration? That might be a pittance compared to being able to manage multiple AU per hour just by the engines, but we really need something to bridge this gap.

Maybe the 10 hours Mal says to Beaumonde is really kinda a cruel comment/threat to Simon about kicking Simon off the ship before they get there? Sort of like in the pilot episode when he makes a similar threat that Simon "will be getting off a mite sooner" if he doesn't save Kaylee.

Or, he could just be underestimating the travel time by about half. Maybe if they had to make any stops on their way to Lilac after their meeting with Fanty and Mingo that set up the bank heist he doesn't know off hand the amount of time it'll take.

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Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:46 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by ElectricLion:
JSF, if you're going to quote my emails, please quote the relevant part. Throwing my entire email up there is just wasting space.


Sorry, I had planned to respond to more, ran out of time.
Quote:


I did not contradict my previous formula. All I said was that if you start with a big boost, you'll get a big acceleration. Any smaller boost will also increase your speed. It just won't be as much.


No, you said that the same boost would produce less acceleration, based upon your existing velocity, or that at the start of the acceleration period according to the formula you provided. The formula does not include coefficiant for starting or ending velocity.
Quote:


The same rules apply whether your ship is in a gravity field, or at a speed of 0 in space. In fact, the explanations above are assuming a speed of 0 (starting) with no gravity field present. I'm just talking about the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation and Newton's laws, which are all very basic.

The "Atlas of the Verse, Vol I" is a commercially available product:

http://store.qmxonline.com/Atlas-of-The-Verse_p_86.html


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