FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

ARIEL

POSTED BY: EVANS
UPDATED: Saturday, November 30, 2002 07:13
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Saturday, November 16, 2002 8:34 PM

EVANS


Why does River say about the slashed Jayne, "He looks better in red"?

Enjoyed how Jayne complained about the siblings to Mal while the Doctor was stitching him up.

Jayne looked rather conspicuous as he signed off the Telefonix (after calling the Feds?) then as he waited, agitated, for the clothing and badges to be dropped off. He looked nervously up to no good.

When Jayne was shown slicing little pictures of the crew to stick onto the ident badges, I got a visual image of each crewmember sitting in a photo booth at the mall, four pics for a dollar, LOL.

When Mal got frustrated at himself at blowing his lines in practice, did you notice that he swore in Chinese but added "shiny" at the end?
"Ching-wah tsao duh liou mahng! Shiny."

Of course you must have noticed Kelly's "Blue Sun" advertisement on the Telefonix when Jayne went to call the Fed agent, from within the morgue.

I like someone else's comment that River's first words, "A copper for a kiss" (in Badger's accent), followed by Jayne's "Jesus!," called up Judas's betrayal of Jesus with a kiss, for thirty pieces of silver.

Mal claimed he and Zoe must have gotten turned around, to be going away from the morgue downstairs, rather than toward it. River, as she was being wheeled through the recovery room, said, "They're doing it backwards, walking up the down slide."

I loved that Mal had the names of the meds written on his arm.

River said, "They come out of the black. They come when you call." Was she referring to the Blue Gloves (probably), or perhaps to the Reavers, who live in "the black"?

She said to Jayne, "Your toes are in the sand."

Almost everything River says turns out to be significant. The writers are playing with OUR minds. What was all that about Christmas presents and not peeking in the closet? (other than the ho-yay factor). The black, coal, the closet. Hmm.

I like that the crew communicated with present-day style receiver-transmitters, not through bits of cardboard pinned to shirts.

Jayne's fight with the Fed, with both hands tied behind his back (!), was very good. No cables or somersaults through the air, no pause in the action for a beautiful pose.

Shrift calls Blue Glove's device a "supersonic boomstick." As good a name as any. The Blue Gloves are the one sour note in this splendid series, for me. Too other-realmish, too Buffy or Angel for a show that wants to show real people's struggles in a different setting.

Jayne's swearing to God that he did nothing, then admitting it while saying he was sorry, then asking Mal to lie about it for him, reminded me of Rhett Butler telling Scarlett that she was like a thief who wasn't sorry she had stolen, but was very, very sorry that she'd gotten caught.

m.

----------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:07 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Evans:
Why does River say about the slashed Jayne, "He looks better in red"?


Someone pointed out in another thread that River slashed Jayne because the Blue Sun logo was on his shirt! Same reason she tore the labels off the cans in "Shindig"(?). That blew me away. I'd missed that!

Quote:


I like someone else's comment that River's first words, "A copper for a kiss" (in Badger's accent), followed by Jayne's "Jesus!," called up Judas's betrayal of Jesus with a kiss, for thirty pieces of silver.


That was me, thanks.

Quote:


Mal claimed he and Zoe must have gotten turned around, to be going away from the morgue downstairs, rather than toward it. River, as she was being wheeled through the recovery room, said, "They're doing it backwards, walking up the down slide."

I loved that Mal had the names of the meds written on his arm.

River said, "They come out of the black. They come when you call." Was she referring to the Blue Gloves (probably), or perhaps to the Reavers, who live in "the black"?

She said to Jayne, "Your toes are in the sand."

Almost everything River says turns out to be significant. The writers are playing with OUR minds. What was all that about Christmas presents and not peeking in the closet? (other than the ho-yay factor). The black, coal, the closet. Hmm.


Yes! It's going to be a whole sub-industry for us fans, picking up on what River says, and figuring out what it means. I'm not sure everything she says has significance, but I could be wrong. Also sometimes she appears to be "seeing" something that's happening elsewhere ("They're doing it backwards", "Two by two, hands of blue") and other times she seems to be reading the mind(s) of people around her.

Quote:



I like that the crew communicated with present-day style receiver-transmitters, not through bits of cardboard pinned to shirts.


!!!
Quote:



Shrift calls Blue Glove's device a "supersonic boomstick." As good a name as any. The Blue Gloves are the one sour note in this splendid series, for me. Too other-realmish, too Buffy or Angel for a show that wants to show real people's struggles in a different setting.


I found them interesting. But we'll see where they go with this.


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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:23 PM

KEF


Also, when they wheeled her past that post-op guy in the hospital (that Simon ended up saving), she knew he was about to die.

It's obvious why the Alliance wants her. At least it would seem to be. But do they want to use her? Or destroy her powers? Or did they help create them? It would appear Simon interupted the proccess of what they were doing to her, one way or the other, when he originally rescued her.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:34 PM

JAYNESGIRLFRIEND


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:

It's obvious why the Alliance wants her. At least it would seem to be. But do they want to use her? Or destroy her powers? Or did they help create them? It would appear Simon interupted the proccess of what they were doing to her, one way or the other, when he originally rescued her.



If they created the powers in her I can't imagine how they planned to use them after they've also taken her sanity. Some of her predictions are fairly obvious even if they are misinterpreted at the time('fire' in OoG) and others sound like the ravings of a looney to everyone but the audience who already know what's up('copper for a kiss') and even those can have multiple interpretations('they took Christmas away'.) If they do plan to use her powers for some nefarious purpose, maybe they know exactly what to do to make her well. That could be an interesting dilemma for Simon in the future, crazy River on the run in Serenity with him or sane River working for the evil Blue Hand Group.

"I was gonna get me an ear, too." - Jayne

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 9:49 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynesGirlfriend:
If they created the powers in her I can't imagine how they planned to use them after they've also taken her sanity.



I don't think they created her powers so much as helped them along, if that's what happened. Maybe her unbalanced mind is a side effect of the process, or rather the fact that it wasn't finished because Simon snatched her in the middle of it. She has all these thoughts, etc. entering her brain from "outside" and she doesn't know how to process the information. Maybe if they had been able to complete their work on her, she would have become an obediant tool. Just one theory.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:44 PM

MOPBUCKET


According to the show (and I'm not too sure how accurate the info is) they removed the Amygdala (sp?) or the "filter" for the brain. I think the idea is that those of us with special powers like River automatically shut down those powers as a coping mechanism. After all if we started hearing voices in our head wouldn't we want them to shut up? So, in order to bypass this sanity defense system they destroyed the Amygdala. Besides, I think in the West it's almost a paradigm that crazy people often have powers to see beyond the veil of reality. You can see numerous examples in stories, poems, movies, etc. Sorta like subconsciously we all believe that losing our inhibitions will allow us to see and feel more...but at the same time we can cross the line of sanity.

Anyhow, that's just my take. Anyone else?

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:19 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Evans:
Almost everything River says turns out to be significant. The writers are playing with OUR minds. What was all that about Christmas presents and not peeking in the closet? (other than the ho-yay factor). The black, coal, the closet. Hmm.


Just watched it again and "They took Christmas away . . . Nothing left but coal." refers to the fact that Jayne wasn't getting the big payoff he expected for turning them in. For that matter, neither was the Fed officer who doublecrossed Jayne- the Blue Hands were going to kill him. "They" are the Blue Hands.
"Don't look in the closet either, it's greedy." would seem to refer to Jayne; i.e. the skeleton in his closet is the fact that he turned them in. Jayne's reaction when he hears her say this would seem to confirm that he realizes that she's talking about him.

"Two by two, hands of blue" -for some reason I love the sound of that.


Quote:


Jayne's fight with the Fed, with both hands tied behind his back (!), was very good. No cables or somersaults through the air, no pause in the action for a beautiful pose.


Fight scenes bore me to death. You seen one, you seen 'em all as far as I'm concerned. They're like the drum solos of film. Even more so fight scenes with ridiculous, unrealistic martial arts. (apologies to Buffy- loved Dawn's line at the beginning of this season when she referred to "those fancy martial arts moves that they (vampires) inevitably seem to pick up"!) Anyway, Jayne's simple brute overpowering of the guard fit in well with the show's "realism", if that's what you mean.

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Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:29 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Mopbucket:
According to the show (and I'm not too sure how accurate the info is) they removed the Amygdala (sp?) or the "filter" for the brain. I think the idea is that those of us with special powers like River automatically shut down those powers as a coping mechanism. After all if we started hearing voices in our head wouldn't we want them to shut up? So, in order to bypass this sanity defense system they destroyed the Amygdala. Besides, I think in the West it's almost a paradigm that crazy people often have powers to see beyond the veil of reality. You can see numerous examples in stories, poems, movies, etc. Sorta like subconsciously we all believe that losing our inhibitions will allow us to see and feel more...but at the same time we can cross the line of sanity.

Anyhow, that's just my take. Anyone else?


Exactly what I was getting at.
Simon: She feels everything. She can't not.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 4:45 AM

DELVO


Quote:

Jayne's simple brute overpowering of the guard fit in well with the show's "realism"
To me, the cool thing about that isn't the "brute force" aspect, but the efficiency of technique. People who say it's technique that matters, not strength, are right, but they're not talking about kickboxing. If you learn a martial art that's really designed for actually fighting, and then use it in a fight, you'll just look like you're fighting, or maybe even like you're just evading and doing little-to-nothing to the opponent, but never dancing (kickboxing). To me, taking out the kickbox-dancing doesn't say Jayne's an uncoordinated behemoth who wins just because he was born to, it says that he learned how to handle himself in a straightforwardly practical way.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 4:48 AM

DELVO


Remember that River's flashbacks seem to mostly pertain to medical procedures, and Simon said they'd done multiple procedures on her head. To me, that doesn't say that the Alliance people in charge knew what to do and how to do it and were targetting their efforts at a specific goal. It says "experimentation". They caught on that there was something special about her mind, and they were fiddling around with it to try to learn more about it and see what happened.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 6:05 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED


Yes, ME is certianly very fond of crazy people. And as with River, if you anaylize what they say, you can find some pretty neat stuff. For instance in "Crush," when Dru has buffy by the throat, she says:

Quote:


"Hear the pretty music? It's a dirge I think... For your funeral... (a quizzical look) But it's not here..."



Essentially, she felt that Buffy was going to die, and soon, just not that day. She predicted the end of "The Gift."

And it's not only "physic" characters. After being brain-sucked by Glory, Tara had preminitions as well. She said to Giles: "You're a killer," shortly before he killed Ben. Even Spike, who has been able to see Morphy when others can't. And remember how only the insane could see the key?

Quote:


DAWN: "The Key is not directly described in any known literature, but all research indicates an energy matrix vibrating at a dimensional frequency beyond normal human perception. Only those outside reality can see the Key's true nature." Outside reality? What's that mean?

SPIKE: Second sight blokes, maybe. Or even just your run-o'-the-mill lunatics.




It appears that in the Whedonverses, insanity isn't so much losing your grip on reality, but altering your perception of it.



________________

Still unhappy? Okey-doke. I've got two words that are going to take all the pain away: Miniature. Golf.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:02 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
Remember that River's flashbacks seem to mostly pertain to medical procedures, and Simon said they'd done multiple procedures on her head. To me, that doesn't say that the Alliance people in charge knew what to do and how to do it and were targetting their efforts at a specific goal. It says "experimentation". They caught on that there was something special about her mind, and they were fiddling around with it to try to learn more about it and see what happened.



That's a good theory too. Although if they were simply experimenting with her and had no specific goal, (and it's implyed that they were "experimenting" on plenty of others back at that place Simon rescued her from) why are they so hell-bent on getting her back?

All just speculations here.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 7:11 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
That's the impression I get too.

As for Jayne I love him. He adds so much realism to the show. If there was no other reason to like this show he would be enough. And his fight with the Alliance dude looked so realistic it made me cringe. In most other shows, when the bad guy starts drawing blood that's generally a queue for the good guy to jump back with a quaint yelp to draw sympathy from the audience. But in reality, adrenaline usually mutes much of the pain one feels in fighting, especially if one is fighting for one's life, which is why fights can often become very bloody.

Jayne is one of the best rounded characters on the show. He is extremely arrogant, selfish, insensitive and even a little sadistic, yet at the same time we see him as one of most courageous and often practical members of the crew. He even possess some level of compassion and empathy, as we see in Ariel when he dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated. However, even Jayne's courage has limitations. This is why, despite his strength, he will never be a leader. It's obvious that he fears Mal. And this is actually very typical of domineering men. They very often avoid confrontation with similarly strong men, especially where they perceive those men as having a moral authority. Jayne can't understand why Mal is so protective of his crew, because in Jayne's mind this is a sign of weakness, yet obviously Mal is not weak. And this will forever baffle Jayne. This is the inferiority complex that comes from Jayne's deep-rooted self-consciousness. Almost in the same way wolves concede authority to the alpha male, Jayne concedes authority to Mal. Yet probably most interesting of all is the way Jayne so frequently comes across as the guy you want on your side. Despite his brutal criminal tendencies, his ability to willingly kill with his bare hands actually makes him a valuable asset. There's a very realistic dichotomy at work in here.


Not to mess with your admiration of Jayne, but he didn't "dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated." He continued to purposely lead them into the place where he knew the Feds were waiting, even after Simon had diagnosed what had been done to River. He may or may not have have felt some compassion, but he still went trough with the plan to turn them in. He then "rescued" them ONLY after he'd been doublecrossed and it was clear he wasn't going to get any reward.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:09 AM

DELVO


Quote:

He continued to purposely lead them into the place where he knew the Feds were waiting
It looked more to a bunch of us like he was trying to slip them through BEFORE the agents would get there... although his motivation might not have been compassion for River anyway even in ithis case; it could also have been a rekindled hatred of the Alliance, or a new respect of Simon for the only thing he finds respectable (being good at one's job), or having coincidentally reconsidered the finances and decided that long-term gig on the ship was better than a one-time windfall...

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:21 AM

KEF


If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:23 AM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
He even possess some level of compassion and empathy, as we see in Ariel when he dismissed his plot to sell out River when he discovered how wrongly she had been treated.


Disagree! He still led Simon and River to the Feds after he'd seen Simon save the man and Simon explain the holograph. When he was handcuffed, he still believed it was part of an act, and didn't kick into "self-preservation" unitl he realized he himself was in the soup. He did unlock the cuffs from the siblings, but by that time it was clear that Simon was going to cooperate.
Quote:

Despite his brutal criminal tendencies, his ability to willingly kill with his bare hands actually makes him a valuable asset. There's a very realistic dichotomy at work in here.

Agree. In "Out of Gas," Mal said to Inara, "Jayne'll be worth something if you run into trouble. But don't trust him, and don't let him take over. You're paid up through the end of the month. It's still your ship."

m.

"But ... not boring, like she made it sound. " Wash, in ARIEL

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 9:40 AM

DELVO


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.

I think you're getting the story mixed up. He took them out from the scanning room the way the plan was originally to be: the front. Simon was concerned only about the rush, not the changed route, because it wasn't changed. They hadn't gotten moving in time, so they got caught. After escaping, they had a scene in a hallway where Jayne was going to take them out the front again; he responded to Simon's objection that that way was guarded by saying that they already knew that way out and wouldn't get lost, implying that he figured he could get them through the guards. They only ended up going out the back because River ran off (seeming to know the way, or so one of the guys at least muttered he hoped was the case) and the guys followed her to avoid breaking up the group.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:11 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
If he changed his mind about turned them over to the Feds, why did he continue to take them out "the back", where he knew the Feds were waiting, instead of taking them out "the front" as was Simon's/Mal's original plan? Mal and Zoe had just taken the drugs out "the front" and were waiting for them to come out the same way. All Jayne had to do was turn River's wheelchair around! Sorry, I don't buy it.

I think you're getting the story mixed up. He took them out from the scanning room the way the plan was originally to be: the front. Simon was concerned only about the rush, not the changed route, because it wasn't changed. They hadn't gotten moving in time, so they got caught. After escaping, they had a scene in a hallway where Jayne was going to take them out the front again; he responded to Simon's objection that that way was guarded by saying that they already knew that way out and wouldn't get lost, implying that he figured he could get them through the guards. They only ended up going out the back because River ran off (seeming to know the way, or so one of the guys at least muttered he hoped was the case) and the guys followed her to avoid breaking up the group.



What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
1) They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room. In any case the Feds were already waiting for them, in hiding, as prearranged. They didn't just happen to show up at the right time, which it sounds like you're saying.
2) After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route. Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".
I've just watched the tape AGAIN, this minute, to confirm what I'm saying.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:37 AM

DELVO


Quote:

What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
We're talking abou the same thing here, you're just not reading what I said right...
Quote:

They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room.
Right. Jayne wanted to get them out quicker. That's why I said it looks like this is when he's already un-betrayed them; there's no reason for him to be in a rush like that if he knows the officers are waiting for them anyway, or if they're coming to get them in the scanning room. Then he could just wait for them, or stick to the original plan and wait until Simon was finished to deliver them. Suddenly changing plans and being in a big hurry only makes sense if he's hoping to slip past the guards before they're in position. But he wasn't able to rush Simon out quick enough, so it didn't work.

Quote:

After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route.
Listen to yourself there; he said "plan". A plan includes timing. That's all that changed. Simon wasn't complaining about the route, only how little time he'd gotten. That's the only thing he specified. The two of them had no argument about which way to go at this point.

And think about why Jayne would even want them to go out the back at all anyway; he wouldn't have arrangd a meeting with the officers in a specific location that was OFF of the planned route and therefor likely to arouse Simon's suspicion; he would have had them wait right where they were going to be anyway according to Simon's plan, or had them come to where they were sitting still in the scanner room.

Quote:

Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".

Like I said, after they'd been caught and then escaped, they had to turn "back" because River ran that way while Jayne and Simon were trying to settle which way they should go. Jayne wanted to go out the way they'd come in, which was the front. Mal, meanwhile, knew that they were running away in an unplanned direction for one possible reason: because things hadn't gone smooth, and so he surmised that a betrayal by Jayne was the reason things hadn't gone smooth.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:20 AM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Delvo:
Quote:

What??? Are you watching the same show? Because I've rewatched it three times since last night (trying to pick up quotes) and your description of what happened when they left the diagnostic room is completely wrong!
We're talking abou the same thing here, you're just not reading what I said right...
Quote:

They didn't get caught because they took too long. Simon wanted to take longer but Jayne hurried them out of the diagnostic room.
Right. Jayne wanted to get them out quicker. That's why I said it looks like this is when he's already un-betrayed them; there's no reason for him to be in a rush like that if he knows the officers are waiting for them anyway, or if they're coming to get them in the scanning room. Then he could just wait for them, or stick to the original plan and wait until Simon was finished to deliver them. Suddenly changing plans and being in a big hurry only makes sense if he's hoping to slip past the guards before they're in position. But he wasn't able to rush Simon out quick enough, so it didn't work.

Quote:

After leaving the diagnostic room, Simon specifically said: "You should have let me know when the plan changed." Because Jayne DID change the route.
Listen to yourself there; he said "plan". A plan includes timing. That's all that changed. Simon wasn't complaining about the route, only how little time he'd gotten. That's the only thing he specified. The two of them had no argument about which way to go at this point.

And think about why Jayne would even want them to go out the back at all anyway; he wouldn't have arrangd a meeting with the officers in a specific location that was OFF of the planned route and therefor likely to arouse Simon's suspicion; he would have had them wait right where they were going to be anyway according to Simon's plan, or had them come to where they were sitting still in the scanner room.

Quote:

Furthermore, that's how Mal was able to figure out what Jayne did.
That entire area they were going through after they escaped- from where they were captured to were Mal found them- is "the back".

Like I said, after they'd been caught and then escaped, they had to turn "back" because River ran that way while Jayne and Simon were trying to settle which way they should go. Jayne wanted to go out the way they'd come in, which was the front. Mal, meanwhile, knew that they were running away in an unplanned direction for one possible reason: because things hadn't gone smooth, and so he surmised that a betrayal by Jayne was the reason things hadn't gone smooth.



I conceed. Yes, I WAS misinterpreting what you were saying. Your points made sense this time. Looking at the tape one last time with your interpretation, I see what you're saying. My apologies!

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:58 PM

VISIONARY


Anyway....

Continuing the "River Theory" side of this:

I think they were trying to turn River into one of their agents. Those Blue Hand fellows have a creepy edge to them, they are impervious to the effects if their little device, and they knew exactly which way River, Simon and Jayne ran.

I think that the Blue Hands are the end result of the experiments conducted on River...she just wasn't far enough along when she was rescued (she's kind of "half-baked" if you will).

Obviously she was chosen because she has some ability in her in the first place, the experiments (at the Academy, remember, which implies training) are to amplify her skills and remove her ability to suprress them.

Book: Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No they don't! Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:06 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Visionary:
Anyway....

Continuing the "River Theory" side of this:

I think they were trying to turn River into one of their agents. Those Blue Hand fellows have a creepy edge to them, they are impervious to the effects if their little device, and they knew exactly which way River, Simon and Jayne ran.

I think that the Blue Hands are the end result of the experiments conducted on River...she just wasn't far enough along when she was rescued (she's kind of "half-baked" if you will).

Obviously she was chosen because she has some ability in her in the first place, the experiments (at the Academy, remember, which implies training) are to amplify her skills and remove her ability to suprress them.

Book: Folks like a man of God.
Mal: No they don't! Men of God make everyone feel guilty and judged.


That's been my pet theory as well. Exactly.

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 5:31 PM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
He didn't lead Simon and River to the Feds. He attempted to lead them out before the Feds arrived after hearing what Simon had to say about River's condition, but unfortunately he didn't make it in time.


I do not see where this comes from. I got the impression that he rushed the siblings out, so that he could get his ree-ward before Mal figured out that something was fishy. We, the audience, were startled, along with the sibs, when the Feds appeared. I don't think Jayne was surprised. His only surprise came when he was cuffed, and then he still thought it was an act. It wasn't until he realized he was losing his precious money that he started thinking about saving his own hide.

Other than money, he cares only for Mal's leadership (and good opinion? I can see hours of discussion or downright argument about it). He is coarse to the women and rude to everyone. He left his former employ for more money and creature comforts on Serenity. We've seen him polishing coins as lovingly as he sharpens his knives and cleans his guns. He was thrown, truly puzzled, by the young man's taking Jayne's bullet in Canton. Simon's actions may cause him to look at things in another way, but it is heavy going for a leopard to change its spots.

Back at Serenity with Mal's full fury in his face, Jayne still tried to lie. When that failed, he tried to hedge. When it appeared he would die in moments, he asked Mal to lie for him. It will be infinitely interesting to see how Mal treats Jayne in the episodes that are in the can or scheduled to shoot.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Sunday, November 17, 2002 6:05 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Thegn:
He didn't lead Simon and River to the Feds. He attempted to lead them out before the Feds arrived after hearing what Simon had to say about River's condition, but unfortunately he didn't make it in time. It wasn't self preservation that made Jayne change his mind, although as Delvo pointed out, it may not have been compassion. Read Delvo's response above. He has explained it well.

Compassion was my first impression, but it may have been any number of things. Owing to Jayne's characteristic dislike of Simon and the fact that Simon has already proven his worth as a doctor on several occasions I doubt that it was a renewed faith in Simon or his expertise. However, it could have been a hatred of the Alliance. That is true. Though I think that might suggest compassion as well. If the Alliance represents, in Jayne's mind, an absolute wrong, an "evil" as it were, then could not his desire to save River from that evil be interpreted as compassion?


You guys definitely have a strong argument for your case, no question! However I'm still not 100 percent conviced. Three things bother me:

1) While they were in custody, River went into her "They took Christmas away . . . nothing left but coal." rant. It would seem that she's talking about Jayne - referring to to the fact that Jayne lost his reward because the Fed officer stole it from him by doublecrossing him. This doesn't work if Jayne had already decided to forego the reward before they were captured. On the other hand, she could be referring to the Fed guy, who wasn't going to be getting the reward either. Except that we wasn't going to just lose it and be left with "coal" - he was going to be killed. Plus River is talking in the past tense- about something that's already happened. So it doesn't quite fit unless she was referring to Jayne. (And don't tell me she was just talking gibberish!)

2) I just don't buy the motivation(s) for Jayne changing his mind in the exam room. It just doesn't ring true to me. (it's simply my opinion)

3) If Jayne had changed his mind in the exam room, it kind of takes a bit of wind out of the final scene between him and Mal. It's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.

These are not the strongest arguments I admit, but they're enough to bother me. I'm sure you'll have plenty to say about them, and I'll be happy to read it all. I really don't mind when someone is able to convince me I'm wrong (and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong a lot!) in a good debate.

This is REALLY intriguing! Does anyone know how to get in touch with Jose Molina? I would love to know how he wanted us to see it.

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Monday, November 18, 2002 3:03 PM

SHINY


Quote:

Originally posted by Evans:
The Blue Gloves are the one sour note in this splendid series, for me. Too other-realmish, too Buffy or Angel for a show that wants to show real people's struggles in a different setting.



I don't really like the blue gloves either. I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy. The sonic brain melter device seemed unnecessary and inefficient, as if it is only there to add mystery and danger to the blue hands instead of for any practical reason (there are lots of faster ways and/or less traceable ways to kill)

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Monday, November 18, 2002 4:36 PM

EVANS


Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy.


I am tired, tired, tired of conspiracy theory TV shows.

m.

------------------------------------------------
"But ... not boring, like she made it sound." Wash, in ARIEL

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Monday, November 18, 2002 5:34 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Evans:
Quote:

Originally posted by Shiny:
I'm worried that plot-line will go down some drawn-out, unnecessarily complicated X-files-like conspiracy.


I am tired, tired, tired of conspiracy theory TV shows.


Particularly after the X Files conspiracy paid off so handsomely after eight years. Ouch.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:11 PM

SPACECOWBOY


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
2) I just don't buy the motivation(s) for Jayne changing his mind in the exam room. It just doesn't ring true to me. (it's simply my opinion)

3) If Jayne had changed his mind in the exam room, it kind of takes a bit of wind out of the final scene between him and Mal. It's here at this point that I see, in Jayne's face, the change take place inside him. I didn't see that in the exam room.



I agree with you here. Jayne was def intent on selling the sibs down the river up until he knew the feds were double crossing him.
I don't believe he even felt bad about his treachery when Mal confronted him on Serenity. It seemed to me that after his initial panic, he accepted the fact that Mal had busted him, and accepted his fate. He just wanted Mal to preserve his sense of honour with the rest of the crew, which proved to Mal that he had a sense of honour, and thus Mal spared him. Course I would'a still flushed him!

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 1:48 PM

RHEA


Quote:

Originally posted by kef:
River, as she was being wheeled through the recovery room, said, "They're doing it backwards, walking up the down slide."




Hmm...I assumed she meant that they were breaking her *into* the hospital instead of out of it.

River often sees things that aren't there. Remember Bushwhacked, when she was hearing the screams of the people who had already died?

I love Riverspeak. When all else fails, I can entertain myself by listening to what River says and trying to figure out what the hell it means.

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Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:02 PM

KEF


Quote:

Originally posted by Rhea:
I love Riverspeak. When all else fails, I can entertain myself by listening to what River says and trying to figure out what the hell it means.


Same here!

I tried starting a thread devoted to Riverspeak (great term!) yesterday. It's called "They took away Christmas . . . " It's probably listed in the General Discussions list. Everyone check it out and add your thoughts!

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Tuesday, November 26, 2002 10:56 PM

MORWYND


He tried to rush them out of there. Why else would he change the time from 20 minutes to 5 minutes? It's not like they had to hurry or the feds would leave! The only explanation for Jayne shortening the time, is if he wanted to get out before the Feds were ready. Someone posted that he hurried to he could get his reward before Mal found out? I don't think so... first of all, 15 minutes would not be enough to get paid and find a way to convince Mal that River and Simon were arrested and he was not. Hell, he probably knew Mal would realize he called the Feds, afterwards. Also, he expected to be "very wealthy", do you think he would go back to work for Mal after? This was an out for him.

I'm not sure whether he expected the Feds to (eventually) be waiting out back, or out front. It really doesn't matter, although it is what aroused Mal's suspicions.

As for him playing along with the arrest like it was an act... well of course! This is JAYNE. He failed to get them out, but still sees a way to save his own skin, and make money too, he's going to go for it! But... no Christmas.. for anybody. Only coal.

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Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:13 AM

STRAYCAT


Quote:


I don't believe he even felt bad about his treachery when Mal confronted him on Serenity. It seemed to me that after his initial panic, he accepted the fact that Mal had busted him, and accepted his fate. He just wanted Mal to preserve his sense of honour with the rest of the crew, which proved to Mal that he had a sense of honour, and thus Mal spared him. Course I would'a still flushed him!



I think one of the chief keys to Jayne is his relationship with Mal. He seems utterly loyal to Mal - note the care with which he made preparations for Mal's stay on the ship in Out of Gas, his refusal to betray Mal in an earlier ep - the strong impression I get is that he'd walk through fire for Mal.

OTOH, he doesn't understand Malat all - it makes no sense to him that someone who shows the kind of sensible ruthlessness that Mal does (example: the thug's fate near the end of The Train Job) would do something as dangerous as harbouring Simon and River if there was no payoff (the obvious one being to sell them)

I really don't think he thought Mal would be that ticked off by what he did. The look on his face was like a small child that suddenly realises they've done something to be ashamed of.

And it's only when Mal realises that Jayne is more concerned about what everyone thinks of what he's done, than about the fact that he's about to *die* that he changes his mind. I don't think this concern is quite advanced enough to be called a 'sense of honour' - but it's maybe the start of one

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