REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

CIA does a major walk-back on Russia being at fault

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, July 26, 2014 01:49
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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Meanwhile, the USA intelligence agencies do a major walk-back from the assertions they were making, oh just a few short hours ago, when they had proof... PROOF, I TELL YOU! VIDEOS! ... All over the media!..... that Russia gave missiles to the separatists

US: No direct link to Russia found in MH17 attack
http://nypost.com/2014/07/22/us-no-evidence-of-direct-link-to-russia-i
n-mh17-attack
/

U.S.: No evidence of Russian government in plane downing
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/us-evidence-direct-russian-link-pl
ane
/


US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing
http://news.msn.com/world/us-no-link-to-russian-govt-in-plane-downing

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:24 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Meanwhile, the USA intelligence agencies do a major walk-back from the assertions they were making, oh just a few short hours ago, when they had proof... PROOF, I TELL YOU! VIDEOS! ... All over the media!..... that Russia gave missiles to the separatists

US: No direct link to Russia found in MH17 attack
http://nypost.com/2014/07/22/us-no-evidence-of-direct-link-to-russia-i
n-mh17-attack
/

U.S.: No evidence of Russian government in plane downing
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/us-evidence-direct-russian-link-pl
ane
/


US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing
http://news.msn.com/world/us-no-link-to-russian-govt-in-plane-downing



All they are doing is suggesting what can be done at this point in a court of law. They know what happened and who did it. They just can't point to an individual or prove that the missile that was used was one of the ones they observed being sent in and then out again by Russia. They know it is but just can't prove it.

Let's not forget they destroyed the integrity of the crime scene. It is five days later and the world is just being allowed in. You keep trying though Signym. This is one of those you lost before you even started and definitely shows you to be if nothing else someone who moved here for a better life that just can't stand to admit this is a much better place that whence you came.


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


U.S. Finds No Direct Link to Russia in Downing of MH17
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/u-s-finds-no-dire
ct-link-russia-downing-mh17-n162426


Quote:

The United States has found no direct link between the Russian government and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last week, three senior intelligence officials said Tuesday.
So, that so-called missile that they said was trundled back and forth over the border, that there were videos of...?

Quote:

The officials repeated their belief that pro-Russian separatists fired the missile that took out the jetliner over Ukraine, killing 298 people, but they said they could not say definitively that the separatists did it.
And that trajectory that they said they had which "showed" who did the shooting...?

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:32 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
You keep trying though Signym. This is one of those you lost before you even started and definitely shows you to be if nothing else someone who moved here for a better life that just can't stand to admit this is a much better place that whence you came.


Please, the Rappy impression is getting old.
Or is just an impression-?

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 11:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


(five days ago) U.S. Sees Evidence of Russian Links to Jet’s Downing
Quote:

WASHINGTON — The United States government has concluded that the passenger jet felled over Ukraine was shot down by a Russian-made surface-to-air missile launched from rebel-held territory and most likely provided by Russia to pro-Moscow separatists, officials said on Friday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-plane
-ukraine.html?_r=0


So much for the lapdog media!
BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 8:51 AM

MAL4PREZ


Strawman. No one here (that I've seen) said Putin pulled the trigger, or ordered the shot. I certainly never did. From the beginning all I've claimed is that separatists did it by mistake using a weapon provided by Russia.

Russia bears some responsibility for supporting the rebels and keeping this war going, just as the US bears responsibility for the grief we cause when we support rebels. Funny how you are all over the West when we do this evil shit, but you invent wild conspiracy theories to excuse Russia when they do it.

But, in case you missed it, Russia bearing responsibility is not Russia doing it *directly*

Try and keep up.



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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 8:59 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Yeah. Major walk-back. Right.

The articles you cite say that there's no proof Russia shot down the airliner (were there ever any U.S. government claims that they did?). They just provided the missile systems and training to the Ukrainian separatists who did shoot it down.

Then there's this, published this morning.

Quote:

The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.

Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites.

The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine even after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which killed 298 civilians.

Analysts at the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are continuing to examine information about the crash, but the officials said the intelligence assembled in the five days since the attack points overwhelmingly to Russian-backed separatists in territory they control in eastern Ukraine.

The senior intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.

That is not a plausible scenario,” said one senior U.S. official, who noted that American intelligence agencies have confirmed that Ukraine had no antiaircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-discloses-int
elligence-on-downing-of-malaysian-jet/2014/07/22/b178fe58-11e1-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html?hpid=z1




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Please, the Rappy impression is getting old.
Or is just an impression-?


.

Y'all don't know what to do with just one of me !


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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 9:47 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Are you saying The Western Media (whoever that is) is not on a short gov leash? I thought that was one of your things? This might be a watershed moment.




Does the media still even have watershed moments? I thought they stopped doing that when journalistic integrity died.

I mean there was a lovely funeral, with clowns and everything, Rupert Murdoch and Piers Morgan had a brawl in the lobby, they served little cakes afterward.

As for all of this, I dunno. I've no doubt the American media is manipulating us, but at the same time, Putin really is a scumbag and he's been leading his country into somewhat questionable actions with Ukraine. And that's even with me thinking that Crimea might be somewhat possibly legitimate due to all the ethnic Russians there.

This is one of those things where I don't think it's going to be possible to know who to believe and we may never know for sure. Probably time to visit the fringe sites and start piecing together our own narrative.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I agree with the problem of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, in terms of ethnic Russians who want to live under Russian rule. Isn't there another way to solve that problem without tanks and rockets?


You would THINK. Like maybe we could get together the leadership of America, and the leadership of Russia, and give them a combination metric yard stick and some privacy, and maybe settle this nonsense once and for all.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


GEEZER
Quote:

The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.
Trained and supplied with BUK anti-aircraft rockets? Or just generally "trained and supplied"? Because, in the same breath, they go on to say that there will never be "a Perry Mason moment" and "we may never know for sure". Apparently, they're willing to make very definitive-sounding statements, which seem to be rather carefully crafted to avoid saying anything definitive at all. So which is it? Do they know for sure? Or not?

Quote:

The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov
For those not familiar with geography, Rostov-On-Don is a Russian city which about 120 miles from Donetsk, or about 60 miles to the Ukrainian border. Would be interested to know how they came up with THAT conclusion. Satellite photos?

G, are you being simple on purpose?
Quote:

Just to clarify: I was speaking of Signym having a watershed moment. She used to say how the Western press was bought and paid for by the Gov., and yet to make her point in this case, she's fine quoting some pretty tired, main stream western press outlets. Now they're bad, now they're fine - eh?
The USA press follows the WH line, The WH has every reason to pin this on Russia, because they want the EU to impose bloody SANCTIONS, damnit! Undercutting their own case means that this statement has to be taken more seriously than the usual propaganda that they spit out.

Let me frame this in a way that even you might understand:

Russia has been making a case all along it wasn't them. They have thrown all kinds of chaff into the air, so to speak: it was a Ukraine jet fighter, it was Ukraine shooting at what they thought was Putin's plane. Even their very official, Defense-Ministry statements are circumspect: Ukraine had BUK missiles in the region, Ukraine's missile radar went active before and during the incident, a radar screen grab showed a military jet in the same horizontal flight path as MH17. There have been no DEFINITIVE statements that Ukraine did it, just circumstantial ones. I think you would agree that Russia has a POV which it intends to promulgate in it's press. (You may think I'm not sensitive to Russian propaganda, but I am. I note very carefully the exact borders of a nation's definitive statements, and those that are made by innuendo. The most important information is almost always the information that's left out.)

Now, if RUSSIA were to come out and flatly say... we have ruled out Kiev's involvement because of such and such data *... that would be counter to what they have been suggesting all along. And because it is RUSSIAN administration that is saying it -not the WH which has every reason to make that statement- then it has more credibility.

If THAT kind of statement came from Russia, would you not trust it more than the USA absolving Kiev, which it's been doing all along?

I've tried to made this pellucidly clear. Do you understand now how different statements from the same outlet may be given more or less credibility?


Select to view spoiler:


*Not an exact analogy, because an exact analogy would be Russia accusing the USA of supplying a government which is killing its own civilians, and fostering a climate of violence, while Kiev is merely the trigger finger. But I don't want to confuse the issue by making an exact analogy, just to point out that the first example isn't a 1:1 representation



Am I being snarky??? YOU BETCHA! For someone who likes to think of themselves as a superior intellect, this should not have been past your capabilities. But apparently, it was.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:25 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Trained and supplied with BUK anti-aircraft rockets? Or just generally "trained and supplied"?



Considering that the U.S. can identify what type of missile was used and where it was fired from by its radar emissions and the damage to the aircraft, seems that they can say that... and they have.

Of course if they don't repeat every specific thing they've released in every single one of their news releases or reports, you look for anything that was left out of one report as evidence that it wasn't reported at all.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 1:34 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
For those not familiar with geography, Rostov-On-Don is a Russian city which about 120 miles from Donetsk, or about 60 miles to the Ukrainian border. Would be interested to know how they came up with THAT conclusion. Satellite photos?



Wow!! 60 whole miles from the border!! Why that'd take a truck two whole hours, if it was slow. [sarcasm]Obviously it'd be impossible for a Russian-made truck to get a Buk-1 into or out of eastern Ukraine.[/sarcasm]

Not sure what you're trying to prove with this statement, SignyM, except that you have no idea how quickly modern mechanized forces can move on hard-surface roads.


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:12 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by BYTEMITE:
Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Are you saying The Western Media (whoever that is) is not on a short gov leash? I thought that was one of your things? This might be a watershed moment.




Does the media still even have watershed moments? I thought they stopped doing that when journalistic integrity died.

I mean there was a lovely funeral, with clowns and everything, Rupert Murdoch and Piers Morgan had a brawl in the lobby, they served little cakes afterward.

As for all of this, I dunno. I've no doubt the American media is manipulating us, but at the same time, Putin really is a scumbag and he's been leading his country into somewhat questionable actions with Ukraine. And that's even with me thinking that Crimea might be somewhat possibly legitimate due to all the ethnic Russians there.

This is one of those things where I don't think it's going to be possible to know who to believe and we may never know for sure. Probably time to visit the fringe sites and start piecing together our own narrative.



Just to clarify: I was speaking of Signym having a watershed moment. She used to say how the Western press was bought and paid for by the Gov., and yet to make her point in this case, she's fine quoting some pretty tired, main stream western press outlets. Now they're bad, now they're fine - eh?

I agree with the problem of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, in terms of ethnic Russians who want to live under Russian rule. Isn't there another way to solve that problem without tanks and rockets?


I'm not convinced at all that they do. Polls earlier this year showed that a majority of Russian speakers, while wary of the new authorities in Kiev, favoured a united Ukraine. The separatist movement started out with quite small protests in a few cities. Then it changed to small groups of suspiciously well-armed and well-trained men attacking police stations. I see no evidence that the separatist movement represents the population at large.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 2:44 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Please, the Rappy impression is getting old.
Or is just an impression-?



Some of you here need to broaden your horizons. You think there are two types in the world, You and rappy. If you only had a brain. Hey, maybe the wizard will give you one. You know Mal4prez. Both of you show very little nuance in your understanding of what makes people tick and what it is to be an individual. The two of you like to clump everyone into very small groups, one or the other. It shows you guys to be very limited.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 3:16 PM

REAVERFAN


Funny how reichwingers will breathlessly post articles thinking they're proving a point no one made.

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 6:09 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


What's a 'kingdom' or 'realm' winger again?

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Wednesday, July 23, 2014 7:44 PM

THGRRI


Here you go Sig, let me make a contribution to your thread. How's this?




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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:04 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, I looked through all the major US news sources: NYTimes, WaPo, CNN, NBC, and ABC and the only site that carried the US retraction of evidence up front was NBC. I have to say their coverage has been thorough, airing all vital info. Also searched google news and didn't find it within the first couple dozen or so links.

But it was quite a spectacular retraction.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/u-s-finds-no-dire
ct-link-russia-downing-mh17-n162426


U.S. Finds No Direct Link to Russia in Downing of MH17

The United States has found no direct link between the Russian government and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last week, three senior intelligence officials said Tuesday.

The officials repeated their BELIEF that pro-Russian separatists fired the missile that took out the jetliner over Ukraine, killing 298 people, but they said they could not say definitively that the separatists did it.

“There’s not going to be a Perry Mason moment,” one U.S. official said. “We don’t know who pulled the trigger.”

The White House stressed that it was not backing off what President Barack Obama, Secretary of State John Kerry and U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power have said for days — that Russia provided training and support for the separatists who PROBABLY shot down the plane, and therefore bore some responsibility.

Instead, the intelligence officials were “just saying that we don’t know if Russians pulled the trigger,” one administration official said. “That doesn’t absolve Russia.”

The officials cited several reasons they could not make a final determination about who fired. One was that U.S. officials have yet to see the plane wreckage in person.

The disclosures came a day after Russian officials challenged the United States to back up its finger-pointing with evidence.

The intelligence officials, summarizing the findings of American intelligence five days after the crash, said the most likely explanation was that the separatists hit the passenger jet by mistake. Separatists had boasted about shooting down Ukrainian military aircraft.

Andrea Mitchell of NBC News contributed to this report.



Compare that with Obama's earlier statement that they had 'confidence' the missile came from separatist-controlled areas: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-17/malaysia-jet-shot-down-in-ukr
aine-near-russia-ifx-says.html
starting @~ 10:15


And then there's the infamous video:



I read that the billboard was for a car dealership just a kilometer or two down the road in a town NOT controlled by the separatists. And it's not something I could hope to verify in YEARS - assuming I made it my life's work. But it seems to me there are many people who could, by tomorrow. That's what I find so frustrating. Is the video valid, or not? It seems simple enough to determine. Shouldn't somebody be on it?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:21 AM

THGRRI


I just gotta ask 1kiki, did you watch the video above your post or the story I posted by the associated press with the rebel leader? Both the video and news story goes a long way to show everything said about the shoot down was correct. Watch the video.

Some might even see it as a confession.


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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:24 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Naw, seriously, if you post more than a few words, reading your posts is far too much effort for too little gain. I don't bother.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:29 AM

THGRRI


You just can't stand the fact that the rebel leader just about copped to everything. Not to worry, the rest here will through it in your face till you acknowledge it. I gonna love that.


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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:44 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I've read several versions of the story. Other people said he was misquoted. HE said he was misquoted. He says a unit had BUKs, then (in your version, p3) he says he doesn't know for sure. It's a case of he said - he said. This is really just more blah blah blah - and very confused blah blah.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 6:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I just gotta ask 1kiki, did you watch the video above your post or the story I posted by the associated press with the rebel leader? Both the video and news story goes a long way to show everything said about the shoot down was correct. Watch the video.

Some might even see it as a confession.




If it goes against official Alliance propaganda, it must be false.

Really not sure why so much effort is being wasted by some trying to explain away what happened. Putin gave the separatist the BUK missile system, trained the soldiers, and they shot down a passenger airliner.

End of story.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 8:38 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
U.S. Finds No Direct Link to Russia in Downing of MH17

The United States has found no direct link between the Russian government and the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last week, three senior intelligence officials said Tuesday.

...

Compare that with Obama's earlier statement that they had 'confidence' the missile came from separatist-controlled areas: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-17/malaysia-jet-shot-down-in-ukr
aine-near-russia-ifx-says.html
starting @~ 10:15


So - you do understand that "separatist-controlled areas" are not Russia, right? A missile coming from the rebel controlled area is not coming direct from Russia.

And funny that you didn't put this part in a bright color: The White House stressed that it was not backing off what President Barack Obama, Secretary of State John Kerry and U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power have said for days — that Russia provided training and support.

Hey - if you want to prove that there's a major retraction, you have to find proof that the US admin ever said that Russia was *directly* involved.

Go. Find it. Prove it.

Quote:

I read that the billboard was for a car dealership just a kilometer or two down the road in a town NOT controlled by the separatists.
You read where? And you get down on me for not providing links!

I posted several links to sites where people geolocate the video and other photos, including shots from google map. Apparently you missed it. Here:

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-154-heavy-fighting-
in-donetsk/#3487


http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/locals-say-rebels-moved-missile-laun
cher-shortly-before-mala


This one is in Russian, but the photos show what people are doing:
http://avva.livejournal.com/2787603.html?thread=107583763#t107583763

ETA: cross post G. Ditto what you said. ;) And - headline! Major retraction! G said the Queen of England didn't do it! LOL!


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Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:26 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL



Pointless as usual.


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Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:49 AM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
And - headline! Major retraction! G said the Queen of England didn't do it! LOL!




Wait a sec - find where I said "The Queen of England shot down MH17!" Go ahead! I said she dated a Russian Separatist dude once and shot him down, that's hardly the same thing. :)

heh, I mock us.



*giggle*


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http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
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Thursday, July 24, 2014 10:51 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
I've read several versions of the story. Other people said he was misquoted. HE said he was misquoted. He says a unit had BUKs, then (in your version, p3) he says he doesn't know for sure. It's a case of he said - he said. This is really just more blah blah blah - and very confused blah blah.



Reuters have released a tape of the interview: http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-rebel-commander-buk-missile/2
5468569.html?nocache=1


Doesn't sound like he was misquoted.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 12:36 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

.....G

I sure hope that guy has a go bag.



Now that's funny.


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Thursday, July 24, 2014 3:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL



Pointless as usual.




Humorless as usual.

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Thursday, July 24, 2014 9:05 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
" Ditto what you said " ???

Omg, we have a Rush Limbaugh ditto - head among us!!! LOL



Pointless as usual.




Humorless as usual.


Yeah, you wore it out long ago. Make an effort to not be a dick, and you might earn back the right to be taken with a sense of humor.


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

Considering that the U.S. can identify what type of missile was used and where it was fired from by its radar emissions and the damage to the aircraft, seems that they can say that... and they have.
Considering that you accept innuendo like a form of proof, no wonder you don't notice its use.



Anyway, I have a real life, I really do. A job, a family, and all. Yes, I've seen most of the articles that you've linked. No, I don't consider them proof... just allegations and hearsay. At some point later, I'll respond to whatever survives the next few news cycles. Most of this is ghafla.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 9:22 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, I don't consider them proof...



Just out of curiosity, what would you consider "proof"?

Any photographs you would call fake (as you already have). Any message transcripts you would call fake (as you already have). Any radar data you would call fake (as you already have). A separatist commander saying SA-11 missiles were in Eastern Ukraine you would call fake (as you already have).

What would convince you that the airliner was brought down by a missile provided by Russia and fired by separatists?

Would anything?


"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, July 25, 2014 9:29 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Yeah, you wore it out long ago. Make an effort to not be a dick, and you might earn back the right to be taken with a sense of humor.




See, you're doing it again.

Lighten up, Francis.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 10:21 AM

THGRRI


Funny, again rolling on the floor.


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Friday, July 25, 2014 10:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Hmmm... what would I consider "proof"? Certainly not the kind of photo that THUGR just posted!

Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.

Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.

Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.

Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.

Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.

That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).

FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"

This kind of reminds me of how Hans Blix' UN team doing the inspection of Iraq was chased out by USA bombers. Because, yanno, who the hell wants the truth if all you want to do is go to war? Right?



I'm not a defense attorney nor a prosecutor, I'm sure they have their own yardstick. But in the data that I've analyzed, those would be fairly reliable, in my view.

Anyway, the reality is that Kiev continues to shell Donetsk and Luhansk AND areas near the crash site - making investigation impossible, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have fled over the border to Russia, (let the ethnic cleansing begin!), someone is shelling Ukrianian army positions, and...

"Yats" - Prime Minister that Victoria Nuland (State Department) wanted, the IMF's guy- has tendered his resignation. The new Kiev government, when it is re-formed, will probably give MORE power to the Nazis in government (Pravy Sektor and others) and then the situation in Ukraine will become more violent.

Collapse of Ukraine Government: Prime Minister Yatsenyuk Resigns amidst Pressures Exerted by the IMF
http://www.globalresearch.ca/collapse-of-ukraine-government-prime-mini
ster-yatsenyuk-resigns-amidst-pressures-exerted-by-the-imf/5393168


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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:05 AM

THGRRI


I would love to take credit for that picture Sig but alas that post belongs to G.

Sig, please, the reason I have had such a hard time dealing with your posts is because you post constantly how the west is up to this or that, has done this or that while showing little regard for and even dismissing the facts. I would love to see you hold to the same impossibly high standards when judging the rest of the world as when Russia is the one under the microscope.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Key Piece of Video “Evidence” for Russian Responsibility for Malaysian Plane Shootdown Debunked

Quote:

Jacob Dreizin, a US citizen who speaks Russian and reads Ukrainian provided this update three hours ago.

Hello Mish,

On Friday, the Daily Mail, one of the major UK tabloids carried photos and video of what was alleged to be a rebel “Buk” launcher heading back to Russia. The article carried a claim from some Ukrainian source that the launcher was missing several missiles after having shot them at the Malaysian 777. The article was prominently linked to the Drudge Report, and so was probably viewed by several million people.

Today, this meme made it into Uncle Sam’s official narrative, as per the following New York Times excerpt:

On the CBS program “Face the Nation,” Mr. Kerry referred to a video that the Ukrainians have made public showing an SA-11 unit heading back to Russia after the downing of the plane with “a missing missile or so.”

The video referenced by the New York Times was, in fact, posted on the Facebook account of the Ukrainian Interior Minister. The allegation was that the launcher was crossing the border with Russia.

However, going by the billboard and other features of the scenery, Russian bloggers and news sources claim to have identified the road in the video as having been taken in or near the town of Krasnoarmeisk (“Krasnoarmiysk” in Ukrainian), which has been under Kiev’s control since May.

In fact, the billboard is supposedly advertising a Krasnoarmeisk car dealership. Also, one of the structures in the background is said to be a construction materials store on Gorkii Street, Krasnoarmeisk.

Please note that this town is (very roughly) 120 kilometers from the Russian border and 80 kilometers from where the Malaysian 777 went down. And again, it has been under Kiev’s control since May.

At least one other clip of the “Russian Buk” that has been made available also suggests that the Ukrainians are showing their own equipment. I’m still working on researching that one for you.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/key-piece-of-video-evidence-for-russian-r
esponsibility-for-malaysian-plane-shootdown-debunked/5392624

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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:32 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2




U.S. Government Lied to Pretend that Accidental Russian Shootdown of Commercial Plane Was Intentional … Three Decades Ago

Quote:

Falsifying the Case

To make the very blackest case against Moscow, the Reagan administration suppressed the exculpatory evidence from the U.S. electronic intercepts. The U.S. mantra became “the deliberate downing of a civilian passenger plane.” Newsweek ran a cover emblazoned with the headline “Murder in the Sky.”

“The Reagan administration’s spin machine began cranking up,” wrote Alvin A. Snyder, then-director of the U.S. Information Agency’s television and film division, in his 1995 book, Warriors of Disinformation.

USIA Director Charles Z. Wick “ordered his top agency aides to form a special task force to devise ways of playing the story overseas. The objective, quite simply, was to heap as much abuse on the Soviet Union as possible,” Snyder recalled.

Snyder noted that “the American media swallowed the U.S. government line without reservation. Said the venerable Ted Koppel on the ABC News ‘Nightline’ program: ‘This has been one of those occasions when there is very little difference between what is churned out by the U.S. government propaganda organs and by the commercial broadcasting networks.’”

On Sept. 6, 1983, the Reagan administration went so far as to present a doctored transcript of the intercepts to the United Nations Security Council (a prelude to a similar false presentation two decades later by Secretary of State Colin Powell on Iraq’s alleged weapons of mass destruction).

“The tape was supposed to run 50 minutes,” Snyder said about recorded Soviet intercepts. “But the tape segment we [at USIA] had ran only eight minutes and 32 seconds. … ‘Do I detect the fine hand of [Richard Nixon's secretary] Rosemary Woods here?’ I asked sarcastically.’”


http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/u-s-government-lied-accidental-
shootdown-commercial-plane-3-decades-ago.html



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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Quote:

I would love to take credit for that picture Sig but alas that post belongs to G.
Oh, so it was "G" that's posting of of his ass again? Apologies!

Quote:

Sig, please, the reason I have had such a hard time dealing with your posts is because you post constantly how the west is up to this or that, has done this or that while showing little regard for and even dismissing the facts.
We haven't even established "the facts" yet. Yes, the plane was shot down. That's the only fact so far that's been established, as far as I can tell.

Quote:

I would love to see you hold to the same impossibly high standards when judging the rest of the world as when Russia is the one under the microscope.
I would love to see you hold up the USA to the kind of standard that you expect of Russia.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:37 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.



And the Russians would of course be completely honest and forthcoming about such verification. Riiiggghhhttt.

Quote:

Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.


Like reports by several different media outlets about materials in the crash site, such as luggage and parts of the plane, being moved or removed?

What if the U.S. provided copies of radar tracks of the airliner and the missile? Would you consider that "a wealth of detail...hard to fake"?

Quote:

Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.


What do you consider "Both sides"? If you're correct, Russia and the Separatists weren't involved at all, so why should they care?

Quote:

Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.


Like the separatist leader saying SA-11 missiles were in rebel-held territory when the airliner was shot down?

Quote:

Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.


Cute, after the separatists had control of the black boxes for several days before turning them over. Plenty of time for movement, sabotage, alteration of data, etc. Not to mention the lack of chain of custody of the rest of the aircraft and credible reports that parts were moved or removed.

Quote:

That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).


U.S. intelligence has reported that the recordings of Separatists claiming a shoot-down match voiceprint analysis of those same individuals at other times. Not verifiable enough for you, I'd bet.

Quote:

FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"


There is kind'a a war going on there. separatists have been shooting down aircraft and firing rocket artillery at the Kiev forces as well. Think the separatists would go for a cease-fire so the investigation teams can come in? The Netherlands have asked Putin to try to influence such a cease-fire. Do you know if he has done so?




"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

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Friday, July 25, 2014 11:57 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Yanno geezer, I'm not going to discuss this too much with you, because you're clearly an ass, like so many others, with a vested interest in not finding the truth, merely confirming your own biases.

Quote:


Anything evidence that would be made available to the "other side" to be subject to verification, as the Russians have offered.-signy

And the Russians would of course be completely honest and forthcoming about such verification. Riiiggghhhttt.-geezer


It depends on how hard it would be to tamper with. Do they have electronic records that are encrypted, maybe protected with some sort of "block chain" protocol?

Quote:

Anything made available to the public with a wealth of detail that would be hard to fake.-signy

Like reports by several different media outlets about materials in the crash site, such as luggage and parts of the plane, being moved or removed? -geezer

Were the luggage and plane parts moved or removed in a search for bodies? Were the items being filmed at the time of movement or removal to record the initial location? Were the removed items set aside for later return?

Quote:

What if the U.S. provided copies of radar tracks of the airliner and the missile? Would you consider that "a wealth of detail...hard to fake"?
Same question as about Russian data. Most of it is electronically recorded, in one way or another. Is it encrypted and otherwise secured to be made tamper-proof?

Quote:

Anything discovered under the observation of interested parties from both sides.-signy

What do you consider "Both sides"? If you're correct, Russia and the Separatists weren't involved at all, so why should they care?-geezer

Since BOTH Russia AND the separatists are the accused, they most certainly are interested parties. You couldn't see that, or chose to ignore it? From this quibble alone, I can see that you have an overwhelming bias.

Quote:

Anything provided by one party that would be counter to its own interests.-signy

Like the separatist leader saying SA-11 missiles were in rebel-held territory when the airliner was shot down?-geezer


The separatist was talking about another group, not his. He isn't presenting self-incriminating evidence, he's trying to distance himself from the mess. Because he's talking about someone else... and not what he directly observed, but what he "heard"... this falls into the realm of "hearsay".

He ALSO went on to say... if you read the story to the end... that the BUK missiles that the other group had were NOT FUNCTIONAL. Another truly biased statement from you.

Quote:

Anything with chain of custody seal, and a "level four" data package associated with it.-signy

Cute, after the separatists had control of the black boxes for several days before turning them over. Plenty of time for movement, sabotage, alteration of data, etc. Not to mention the lack of chain of custody of the rest of the aircraft and credible reports that parts were moved or removed.-geezer

There is something called "evidence tape" which indicates when an item has been opened. I don't know how black boxes are made, but considering they're usually used as key pieces of evidence in criminal and civil proceedings, my guess is that they're not only damage-resistant but also tamper-resistant, until accessed, and that -once accessed- they reveal that event.

Quote:

That doesn't include tweets from unverifiable sources, or conclusions like powerpoint slides (without supporting verifiable data) from one side of the story, or what someone said about what they heard from someplace else (without verifiable data).-signy

U.S. intelligence has reported that the recordings of Separatists claiming a shoot-down match voiceprint analysis of those same individuals at other times. Not verifiable enough for you, I'd bet.-geezer

I need to think about that. When they obtained the exemplar voiceprints, did they have verified identities to match? Also, what were the people saying? Are there gaps in the transcript, as Reagan created whne KAL-007 was shot down?

Quote:

FWIW, during this whole time, Kiev has never stopped shelling the area. Unarmed Australian police are cooling their heels in London because the risk of being shelled by Kiev is too great to send them into the conflict area. However, Nederlander MPs are being sent to the site, which is understandably termed "dangerous"-signy

There is kind'a a war going on there. separatists have been shooting down aircraft and firing rocket artillery at the Kiev forces as well. Think the separatists would go for a cease-fire so the investigation teams can come in? The Netherlands have asked Putin to try to influence such a cease-fire. Do you know if he has done so?-geezer

The separatists have been asking for a cease-fire since the plane was shot down. ON the very day that the bodies started leaving the area by train, Kiev was shelling the area, and there was reported shooting and explosions in Donetsk.

Quote:

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."
Too bad you filled yours with hate.

The reason why I'm such a stickler for proof is because the USA has a long, storied history of making shit up whole cloth. Manufacturing or distorting evidence that the average citizen might think... Why, they would never DO that!. But they have in the past, quite often, and almost always successfully. As our recent history so amply demonstrates.

Every piece of evidence has to be demonstrated to MY satisfaction before I accept it. That means evidence from both sides. There is a lot of stuff that has fallen into the basket of "interesting, if proven true" but hasn't yet made it out. My standards are very high, given the history of both sides.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:06 PM

THGRRI


Sig I do not have to lay things out elaborately to make the point that you do not judge things by factual analysis as you claim you do as a scientist. The proof comes from the elaborately laid out denials you post.

I don't need to provide links and a sustained argument. I just have to entice you to post more because the essence of your prejudices is in what you say.


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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


THUGR, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, so whatever lessons you "think" you've drawn from it are irrelevant.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:12 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR, you clearly don't understand what I'm saying, so whatever lessons you "think" you've drawn from it are irrelevant.



They are the same lessons everyone else is drawing from this exercise in futility. I have however come to realize you have a profound love for Russia. Knowing that it makes it easier to let you off the hook for your staunch defense of her.


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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:19 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


No, actually I have a profound love of my country, the USA. The original ideas of democracy and freedom are profound and they burn brightly. Which is why it disturbs me so greatly to see us stooping to such depths: conflating profits with freedom and corporations with people, installing tyrants, killing innocent civilians by the millions all over the world, impoverishing whole nations and consigning hundreds of millions to misery... and, of course, lying about it.

This whole episode about Ukraine... which BTW is about to meet at least one of my predictions, if not two... is merely an exercise in me confronting your biases. You think you're better than rappy, but you're not.

The adult, intelligent, unbiased thing to do would be to examine the data even-handedly, but you clearly have your thumb on one side of the scale.

Yanno what I think you should do?

Burn your assumptions to the ground. Create a level field for ideas. Hold each and every one up to a bright white light. Only hold on to the parts that shine clear.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 12:52 PM

THGRRI


I read what you say about your love for this country yet all your posts constantly show you supporting our detractors vehemently. I would point out that you are our biggest detractor. The reason I believe what you claim, you love this country to be false, is your repeated willingness to ignore facts at our expense. Not just in the recent threads of this week but always.

No Sig, I don't think so.


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Friday, July 25, 2014 2:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


Umm, OK. Ideas and truth not your thing. Freedom, not so much either. Transparent government can go out the window.

Got it.

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Friday, July 25, 2014 2:36 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them. SECOND: I am so very sorry I libelled you by labelling you a Russian Troll. I apologize for this. http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=64646&p=2


In response to a picture that was truly stupid.

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