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Psych bible turns sorrow into sickness

POSTED BY: MAGONSDAUGHTER
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:46
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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:34 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:


Psychiatry bible 'turns sorrow into sickness'
Jill Stark
December 4, 2011


IT'S been branded a ''dangerous public experiment'' that could turn normal human experiences into an epidemic of mental illness with healthy people being drugged unnecessarily.

In radical changes to the way mental health conditions are diagnosed, what was once considered a child's temper tantrum could be labelled ''disruptive mood dysregulation disorder''. If a widow grieves for more than a fortnight she might be diagnosed with ''major depressive disorder''.

If a mother in a custody battle tries to turn a child against the father, it might create ''parental alienation disorder''.


These are among new conditions proposed for the fifth edition of the psychiatrist's bible, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), due to be finalised next year.

Some doctors in Australia are arguing the revised manual - used globally to diagnose mental disorders - is pathologising unhappiness.

The changes have also caused an international outcry, with the American Counselling Association, American Psychological Association, the British Psychological Society and others calling for the draft of the new edition to be independently reviewed.

They fear it is so inclusive, it risks labelling millions of healthy people as mentally ill.

''It's such a narrow and limited view of human experience, to want to reduce every bit of suffering to medical diagnosis,'' said Jon Jureidini, professor of psychiatry at the University of Adelaide. He said the changes would lead to increased prescribing.

The authors say ''misinformation'' about the manual, produced by the American Psychiatric Association since 1952, is creating unnecessary fear and any inclusions will be based on robust scientific evidence. Psychiatrist Ian Hickie, director of Sydney University's Brain and Mind Research Institute, rejects claims that the new manual would medicalise unhappiness. ''When people are in pain and suffering elsewhere we don't say people are pathologising that. We say, let's try and do the best we can to relieve that and get them back to function in the appropriate way,'' Professor Hickie said.

The rift reflects division within the mental health community over a global rise in the use of antidepressants, stimulants and antipsychotics, with many clinicians critical of drugs with potentially serious side effects being favoured over more costly talk-based therapies. Others argue that medication can be life-saving where other therapies have failed. The inclusion of conditions such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and autism in previous DSM editions is believed to have contributed to increased prescribing.

In the new edition, the diagnosis threshold for some existing disorders is also being lowered so that grief over the death of a loved one can qualify as a major depressive illness.

The authors of DSM-5, however, argue that a bereaved person who is suffering from major depression is currently ineligible for that diagnosis, preventing them from getting help if they need it.

''A broad range of evidence … shows that there are little to no systematic differences between individuals who develop a major depression in response to bereavement and in response to other severe stressors - such as being … raped … or the loss of your treasured job,'' Dr Kenneth Kendler, a member of the DSM-5 mood disorders group, said.

The changes also mean children only have to display six of 13 possible symptoms for a diagnosis of ADHD, compared with six of nine in the previous manual.

''Under the new criteria it's almost harder not to get diagnosed with ADHD than it is to get diagnosed with it,'' Martin Whitely, a West Australian Labor MP and anti-ADHD medication campaigner, said. ''There were about 60,000 Australian children on ADHD medications in 2010 - a lot of money has gone into marketing and selling the disease.''

One of the manual's biggest critics is the man who developed the last edition, American psychiatrist Allen Frances. He told The Sunday Age the fact that the authors of the new edition have described it as a ''living document'' makes it a ''dangerous public health experiment''.

''The DSM-5 is used in real life-and-death decisions - it shouldn't be a set of hypotheses to be tested,'' he said. ''The worst outcome of this would be all these suggestions get included and a lot of people get medicine they don't need. But an almost equally bad outcome would be that psychiatry gets so tarred by this aberration that people who really need psychiatry and need the medicine stop taking it.''

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/psychiatry-bible-turns-sorrow-into-s
ickness-20111203-1ocmm.html#ixzz1fW9D8Lq5



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Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Thank you for this. This has been a problem for some time (four previous editions at least)

I've railed against this sort of thing before, but I think the author has a point and it would interesting to see if, in fact, this could be carried to it's logical extreme:

If we took the DSM-5 and applied it to a random sampling of the population, could we diagnose everyone in our sample with some form of mental illness?

My guess is we could, and leads me to wonder if this is by design. If so, then you can have a full on FFF RWED brawl about whether it's the corporate profiteers or MKULTRA



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:00 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I was kind of hoping for a discussion, not a brawl

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:27 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, I ain't likely to brawl with y'all, most of ya, about it, but there will be brawl.

Overdiagnosis is as bad as underdiagnosis, and getting a proper, vetted, unbiased diagnosis in this day and age is a real problem with a broken medical care system which has incestous links with Big Pharma right down to the displays and posters in your local doctors office.

Believe me, I know - one might recall that the primary thing that nearly screwed things up and left me hanging again recently was the doctors refusing to listen to the patient and screwing the diagnosis up via bias and incompetence, were it not for one having enough of a mad science bent to listen and read my medical files, I might not be here.

So yeah, this sorta thing annoys the hell outta me, and I wonder just how much of that they let Big Pharma ghost-write for them, follow the money, as always.

That's also why I am a fan of CCHRINT, although I don't necessarily always agree with em.
http://www.cchrint.org/

Also still fighting that whole Godboldo mess, next hearing is Dec 12th - the hardest part is keeping them in the dark about our involvement cause I'd rather not have them dragged into our fight, they got enough on their own plates.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 8:40 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

''The DSM-5 is used in real life-and-death decisions - it shouldn't be a set of hypotheses to be tested,'' he said. ''The worst outcome of this would be all these suggestions get included and a lot of people get medicine they don't need. But an almost equally bad outcome would be that psychiatry gets so tarred by this aberration that people who really need psychiatry and need the medicine stop taking it.''



This is true of both psychiatry and medical doctors. I've gotten so much bad advice and negative help from traditional doctors that my first inclination now is to doubt them, rather than trust that they know what the hell they're talking about.

I'll go to a traditional doctor to get a bone set, and occasionally for stitches (though I did my own last time), but that's about it.

Not likely to go to a shrink for any reason at all, simply because doing so is more and more likely to result in you getting some sort of scarlet letter on your permanent record. ;)

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:38 PM

DREAMTROVE


Okay, if ya want it, here's my analysis, but fair warning, it's a little abstract and conspiratorial.

Pharma isn't about medicine, and it's not about money, not directly, it's not about control, not directly.

Pharma is a bank. Bank of issue, international finance. They mint money in their own currency system. This money is deflationary, because you eat it. This makes it abnormally strong as a currency. Its status, in its many forms, is variable, so it can go legit, be devalued and go "generic" go "off-label" and get more wider circulation or it can go "illicit" and become a black market currency, kicking back up its value. It's a very complex currency system, and very veratile, easily manipulated by its controller, Pharma, the bank of issue.

In order to get citizens, the nation of Pharma must first convince people of one of two things: Either that they need Pharma in their lives, or that Pharma coins, little colored disks made sugar, are actual money that can be traded, not just for cash, but for direct services or other Pharma coins of a different color.

Diagnosing everyone as sick makes everyone part of the system, so everyone gets the currency, and in so doing they set up the international exchange rate, between the global parasitic nation of Pharma, and their host nation. Pharma can set this rate of exchange through manipulation of governments, medical providers and insurance companies.

Once Pharma is freely exchangeable for other currencies, it's ability to penetrate the world market is assured, and its issuers can mint money at will, and demand human labor in exchange, per the basis of economics. There's really no limit to the amount of Pharma coins or pills that can be minted, because the number in circulation will always be falling, and the number of citizens purchasing or trading them will always be increasing.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, December 3, 2011 10:57 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I love going through the DSM. I usually end up diagnosing myself with lots of stuff, aolthough the same can be said for a medical dictionary. Which is why lay people shouldn't diagnose.

I think some diagnosis are useful. If it means you get a treatment plan, or some way of relieving your suffering, or some insight into your/your loved ones behaviour/condition then that is great. If it leaves a person, especially a child feeling stigmatised and or pathologised, and no good comes of it, then it is not good.

Number 5 has gone too far.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:07 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Which is why lay people shouldn't diagnose.


Disagree. I figured out my heart condition wasn't a heart condition at all, no thanks to idiot doctors unable to pick up on the obvious signs and symptoms, and who thought it was pathological or lack of exercise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precordial_catch_syndrome

Screw them. It was an obvious diagnosis, and if they couldn't even get that, I seriously question their so called "expertise."

I was also able to correctly diagnose my L5 herniated disk with associated sciatica, which I did confirm with an MRI, and determined that I didn't need surgery to correct it. I was also able to diagnose my grandmother's vascular dementia and thrombosis, the only surprise there was the possible lung cancer, which wasn't really a surprise because she smoked two packs a day for twenty years.

Essentially, if you're literate and discerning, there's not really anything a doctor can tell you that you can't find out on your own.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:59 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


If the problem is getting help to people who need it the answer is changing how people can get help. Not changing your measurement methods.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:18 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hey Byte

You sure seems to have run into a lot of incompetent doctors. Are you sure you don't live in Florida? Florida is a lot like that.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:28 AM

BYTEMITE


To be fair, my diagnosis of my grandmother actually was in agreement with her doctors.

But... Yes. I've run into a lot of incompetent doctors. Two of which were the two psychiatrists I've ever seen in my life, one of which was outright malicious and the other inadvertently incompetent.

My mom at least appears to be working with some cancer doctors who know their stuff, with the caveat that what we know about cancer is a vague idea, still being built on, and not a complete understanding. She also has had five brain tumours, and is still alive thanks to surgery.

At the same time, the general practicioners and oncology experts at another hospital missed the warning signs of my grandfather's pancreatic cancer for nigh on a decade, to the point that my brother, who graduated law at Columbia University and also studied at Cambridge and King's College believes we actually would have had a fair case for malpractice.

My experience therefore has been somewhat hit or miss, and since the incidence of good doctors versus bad doctors appears to be random, I think everyone's best bet is to do their own research, and use doctors primarily as a supplemental source of information.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:30 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

If we took the DSM-5 and applied it to a random sampling of the population, could we diagnose everyone in our sample with some form of mental illness?
Which is why I refuse to use the word "normies", as is often done in the mental-health community. "GUMs" is my choice: Great Undiagnosed Masses", because eventually I think, taken far enough, that psychiatry will come up with enough definitions to fit EVERYONE.
Quote:

Overdiagnosis is as bad as underdiagnosis, and getting a proper, vetted, unbiased diagnosis in this day and age is a real problem with a broken medical care system which has incestous links with Big Pharma right down to the displays and posters in your local doctors office.
Also true, but you won't get me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are those who need HELP; that the system is flawed does not change that.
Quote:

Not likely to go to a shrink for any reason at all, simply because doing so is more and more likely to result in you getting some sort of scarlet letter on your permanent record. ;)
True; on the other hand, for one thing one generally HAS to see a p-doc periodically in order to get disability or any other form of help.
Quote:

I think some diagnosis are useful. If it means you get a treatment plan, or some way of relieving your suffering, or some insight into your/your loved ones behaviour/condition then that is great. If it leaves a person, especially a child feeling stigmatised and or pathologised, and no good comes of it, then it is not good.
I agree with Magons. And yes, DT's conspiratorial mentality is easily discerned from what he write. I recognize the validity in today's society, but mankind has from the beginning of time looked for ways in which to lessen suffering, cure diseases, etc., so again it's baby and bathwater. To ignore all the things pharmaceuticals have given us, and say all pills are nothing but sugar, is sad. If I hadn't searched long and hard for the right meds to help me, and get diagnosed so I could self-educate and realize what had caused my crash so I could change how I lived my life and have the life I have now, I'd quite literally be dead by now. I prefer being alive, thank you.

Psychopharmacology isn't easy, and finding the right diagnosis/treatment requires being responsible, not just taking pills; those of us who have done it at least somewhat right have benefited greatly and can achieve a better quality of life. When it comes to mental illness, if medication is going to help at all, we have to take responsibility for the unpleasantness of trying different drugs to see what works for us individually.

I do not condone over-diagnosis, diagnosis of young children, or what Big Pharma has created in our society; but nor do I condone places like Japan (used to be, maybe still is), where any form of serious mental illness is hidden, either by the person out of fear of stigma or by the family in order to "save face", and what the mentally-ill person suffers as a result of either. The world isn't black and white, there are good and bad things in EVERYTHING.


Byte,
Quote:

what we know about cancer is a vague idea, still being built on, and not a complete understanding
Substitute the word "mental illness" for cancer, and the statement is equally valid.
Quote:

Essentially, if you're literate and discerning, there's not really anything a doctor can tell you that you can't find out on your own.
THAT I disagree with wholeheartedly! Obviously you've had good experiences along that line, but I don't think it can be said for the vast majority of people.


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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:37 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Byte,

Quote:
what we know about cancer is a vague idea, still being built on, and not a complete understanding

Substitute the word "mental illness" for cancer, and the statement is equally valid.



Substitute "every medical field" for cancer and it's also mostly accurate.

But I take your point. Neurology and neurochemistry are still in development... Though I'd take their research before I'd take psychology research.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 9:48 AM

DREAMTROVE



Niki,

this is neither here nor there, but since I adopted your color coded text idea (good idea, btw. It's cut in half the time I spend hunting through threads) I've started trying my best to quote colored text as colored, to make your text purple when I quote it. You have to set the font inside the quote and then again outside of it.

While I'm at it, I recommend to everyone to chose a color. I recall Rap being orange briefly. It's a good idea, you know whose words are which much more easily.

It's like miniature golf, for words.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:27 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I don't know what that is supposed to be about, or why it was directed at me...?



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Sunday, December 4, 2011 11:41 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Well, Siggy made a good point a while back about how the assholes of the insurance companies help corrupt the process too, in that sometimes a doc has to shovel a bullshit "diagnosis" as an excuse cause without it the insurance company won't cover jack diddly shit, even if the "diagnosis" is in fact a thin fiction that has nothing whatever to do with the problem and/or treatment.

I think that does a serious disservice to the patient in the longterm, especially if they're out of the loop (being young, or whatever) when those decisions are made and unaware that the diagnosis is bunk - plus it can also boomerang back on them in hurtful ways later in life.

I *DO* see her point, but I think that one is more the fault of our terribly broken medical insurance system rather than physician incompetence.

Speakin of, believe me, I can tellya horror stories about that, my experiences have been so awful that I flat do NOT trust any of em till they prove out, and part of that involves being crazy enough to break with hidebound tradition, ergo I wind up with some real kooks - but yanno, they're DAMN good at what they do.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 12:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:


Essentially, if you're literate and discerning, there's not really anything a doctor can tell you that you can't find out on your own.



Yeah, well I really disagree with that. I do agree you should be literate and discerning and read up on stuff. You can ask questions and form hypothesis, but in the end you really can't beat expertise AND western pathology. A good naturopath will recommend bloods before treatment. I feel a strong sense of deju vu as I write and I fear I have had this exact conversation with you before.

It is very interesting having discussions with so many Americans. There is such an air of pessimism about many of you, about how you feel your society works (or doesn't). I thought Americans were supposed to be a positive people - well that's me generalising much.

So I'm never sure if I am just overly positive and optomistic or there is something cultural happening here. I know there are good and not so good doctors, but so far I've managed to have most of my interactions with people I trust. I don't feel my doctor plugs big pharma, in fact, the clinic i go to shies away from prescribing antibiotics, and is more likely to recommend counselling for depression than drugs.

It's the same with many of the conversations we have here. I have gripes with various systems, but I don't feel they are unfixable or catastrophic. Is it me, or is it where I live. It puzzles me.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:04 PM

BYTEMITE


>_>

I've dismissed most naturopathy as unscientific, unless I can see the chemistry behind it. So I don't think you were having this conversation with me, Magons. You might have been talking to CTS? She has some similar viewpoints about self-research and distrust of doctors/big pharm but she's the one who likes naturopathy.

I do know that Riona goes to a naturopath, which causes me to worry what poison she might be ingesting, but I'm trying to be open minded.

As for Americans, I think it's less how Americans are like in general, and more you have a specific group here who happen to be very disillusioned and who the show Firefly spoke to, and who took different messages from it - the dangers of corporation or the danger of government or both.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


" Is it me, or is it where I live. "

I don't know you as a person, but I know many Canadians and they are far more positive and trusting in society - which is natural given their society. OTOH the US is rabidly dog-eat-dog. Given all that, I suspect it's at least partially where you live.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 1:10 PM

DREAMTROVE


Niki

Because you strung four quotes together and responded to them and I couldn't figure out whose was whose.


Everyone,

Grab a color. Not green ;)

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:49 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
[Essentially, if you're literate and discerning, there's not really anything a doctor can tell you that you can't find out on your own.

Yep. Thank you, thank you.

One of my favorite physicians is Robert Mendelsohn, MD. Wrote a book called Confessions of a Medical Heretic. When I first read it, I thought, "Damn, this guy is kooky!" A few years later, after I had gotten sick and had gotten to know a LOT of physicians, I thought, "Damn, this guy is scary right." Things are so bad in that industry, the truth sounds kooky.

One of my favorite quotations from the book: "Anybody with an eighth grade education and a dictionary can read any medical book."

Another one:
Quote:

That's why it is important to subvert the process [getting unwanted procedures while in labor at the hospital] and get the jump on the doctor as much as possible before the situation gets critical. After you've asked your question, don't take it for granted that you can trust the doctor's answers. Check out whatever he says. Again, read all the sources you can find. You have to know more about it than he does.

Doctors in general should be treated with about the same degree of trust as used car salesmen. Whatever your doctor says or recommends, you have to first consider how it will benefit him.



So, I see doctors as salesmen. Salesmen know a LOT about the products they sell, but they don't usually know what is best for YOU--esp if what is best for you doesn't involve their line of products.

When I go to the grocery store, I don't ask the grocer what I should make for dinner. I decide what I want to make for dinner FIRST, then visit a grocer if I need to buy something from him for dinner. Similarly, I don't ask doctors what I should have for treatment. I decide what I want to treatment FIRST, then visit a doctor if I need to buy something from him for that treatment. I've had so much less conflict with doctors once I realized it was purely a very expensive sales transaction.

There are a few experts in certain diseases or mechanisms, but your average private practitioner? For the most part, they are legal, state-approved drug dealers.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 7:57 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
You might have been talking to CTS? She has some similar viewpoints about self-research and distrust of doctors/big pharm but she's the one who likes naturopathy.

I've had a lot of better experiences with homeopathy than naturopathy. And, homeopathy is SOOOO much cheaper. If it doesn't work, you haven't lost much. Conventional medicine and naturopathy tend to be very expensive.

I consider myself a medical atheist and pragmatist. I have no preferred Healing Religion. I will try anything once. I've tried all sorts of things, both conventional and alternative. Some have "worked" and some were a waste of money, in both conventional and alternative modalities. Whatever works, that's my motto.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:21 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Diagnosing everyone as sick makes everyone part of the system, so everyone gets the currency, and in so doing they set up the international exchange rate, between the global parasitic nation of Pharma, and their host nation. Pharma can set this rate of exchange through manipulation of governments, medical providers and insurance companies.

Interesting thought.

It is not just in diagnosing normal unhappinesses of life. They have convinced people to FORCE everyone else into the diagnostic/treatment system. Medical consensus and "standards of care" and public health prevention is all about herding us into this box where we HAVE to spend THEIR currency to buy THEIR products and solidify THEIR monopoly.

Again, I don't really get why anti-corporation folks would support this kind hegemony, but medicine appears to be an almost religious blind spot. They will question global warming studies by oil companies, and lung cancer studies by tobacco companies, but they won't question medical studies by pharmaceutical companies, or medical studies by physicians who get vacations from Big Pharm.

The DSM has a lot of legal clout in courts. It is not just a standard of diagnosis, but a preamble to a standard of care. Because of DSM, you get cases like Godboldo and forced drugging of children for ADHD like this one.

http://www.breggin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&
id=81


I don't really care if they want to pathologize everything under the sun. But I take issue when it becomes the benchmark by which I am judged both socially and legally.



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:51 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh believe me, that used car salesman analogy sooo works.

The doc I use for scratch and dent type stuff, he's a decent enough old coot and willing to patch up stuff without asking too many questions, plus being local and cheap, sure...
However, he's also always, ALWAYS trying to push an MRI and Cholesteral(sp?) screening, not because of any actual medical concern, but because he's receiving kickbacks from the place that runs the MRI for his referrals, and the makers of a certain supposed anti-cholesterol drug pay for his golf junkets.

I am not however entirely sure an "eighth grade education" is up to it when you get into stuff like the work of Doc Perry, hell even *I* struggle with trying to puzzle out WTF he's trying to say a lot of the time since I lack the medical education and terminology and have to then look THAT up, yadda yadda, but for more general things there's a point to that, yeah.

I think that a lot of times, trying to figure a diagnosis is like fishing in a pond, while the doctor has a deeper "pond" there's still no assurance you're gonna catch the right fish there - if you'll pardon my heavily mangled analogy.

Also, regarding natural medicine - and I don't often mention this cause folks get the notion I am against modernized medicine en-masse, which is far from true...
I *DO* know a lot about old-school healing of the type modern medicine is based upon, and there's times when that might do a better job of things, particularly when modern medicine is overkill - it's gentler, some might say weaker, but do you really need specifically x amount of milligrams of something when all you need is temporary symptom abatement while you find/heal the root cause ?

Of course, modern medicine seems to be far, far more about treating symptoms over and over rather than addressing and fixing root causes cause it's more profitable that way, and I see that as foolish as taking nyquil for tuberculosis - case in point: acute febrile neutrophilic dermatosis.
If you actually read up on it, 90% of the descriptions are medicalese-doubletalk-jargon for "We have no idea", in fact that's EXACTLY what "idiopathic" MEANS - this one being a rather personal annoyance for me since the stress of being out of my safe zone will trigger a relapse and if symptom-abatement is all we have then that leaves me kinda hanging, don't it ?

All that said, modern medicine ain't without it's miracles neither - Corvera was a freakin mad genious, using sea coral to bulk up the shattered wreck of my tibia so that we didn't have to lose the knee when we hadda saw off the mangled remains of my right leg, and the prosthetics and other reinforcement stuff which keep me functioning are something of a wonder themselves, although we bent quite a few medical "rules" in the doing of all that, sure.

As with anything else, medicine is only as good as the human beings delivering it, who should never be regarded as infallible, cause that leads to disaster, often as not.
Also, I think the patient has a responsibility to be an INFORMED one, that they should never abdicate, cause that cuts both ways too - if you shoulda known better, then YOU shoulda known better, ehe ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 3:30 AM

DREAMTROVE


CTS,

Most people's minds don't bend around corners. If you call something medicine they can't see it as anything else, like economics, if you call it economics, they can't see it as an invading army (like the euro) If you call it charity, they can't see it as genocide, etc.

This just serves the power, because then the debate becomes trapped in the frame of "medicine" and then it's "this is bad medicine" which turns into a cry for "better medicine" which invariably means "more medicine."

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 2:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Niki,

this is neither here nor there, but since I adopted your color coded text idea (good idea, btw. It's cut in half the time I spend hunting through threads) I've started trying my best to quote colored text as colored, to make your text purple when I quote it. You have to set the font inside the quote and then again outside of it.

While I'm at it, I recommend to everyone to chose a color. I recall Rap being orange briefly. It's a good idea, you know whose words are which much more easily.

It's like miniature golf, for words.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.



Maybehaps I'll give it a try...

ETA: Naaahhhh - that's too close to your color. I'll have to play with it and tweak it a bit.

ETA2: Better. It's supposed to be a mustard yellow, but appears more orangey on the screen. Colors have limits, especially on a black background. Most blues will really strobe if you're not careful, and you won't be able to focus on them easily at all.


Like this one.

Oooh, I like this one better.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, December 5, 2011 2:16 PM

DREAMTROVE


Here's a subtler blue, Mike
This is 009FFF
Some simple colors
This is FF0000
This is FFAF00
This is FFFF00
This is AFFF00
This is 00FF00 [reserved]
This is 00AFFF
This is 0000FF
This is AF00FF
This is FF00FF
This is FF00AF

Niki is 9999CC
Niki used to be 48D1CC


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 6:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I have a HUGE problem with overdiagnosis and calling normal human experiences illness, this coming from someone who definitely has a mental illness and has no doubt about it. The DSM 5 scares me because it has all these whacky new diagnoses in it. One that bothers me is "psychotic risk disorder". I mean if the person isn't having psychosis then why would we want to label them like that? Sometimes labels do more harm than good and I don't believe in treating something unless it is actually happening, none of this "well its possible that it might happen so lets jump the gun" stuff, especially when it comes to kids.

Its normal to be really depressed for the first six months or more after your spouse dies. My grandma lost a ton of weight after my grandpa passed and was bummed out. The problem with her is that she was already starting to show signs of old age brain differences, which notably increased after his death. Sometimes when old people do have depression (she's been pissy always but it keeps getting worse the older she gets) it can masquerade as dementia/alzheimers, and if the person tries things for the depression the memory loss symptoms go away. But we can't figure this out with my grandma because she is clever enough to see where the doctor is going when he asks certain questions so she lies. At any rate she's still able to take care of herself and her symptoms of whatever-it-is have plateaued in the last six months so that's at least something. For context my grandpa died two years ago and I started noticing little problems about three years ago. Not exactly what we're talking about but hey.

I think that there are a lot of good points in this discussion.

Byte, I'm seeing the natural doctor and the pdoc, double duty. The naturopath is fairly new, I've been using her amino acid for two months now, haven't noticed a change from it. But my labs will come back soon so we'll see what we can do with that.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 5, 2011 8:06 PM

BYTEMITE


Huh. Wikipedia told me that homeopathy was a subcategory of naturopathy. She done me wrong, that wikipedia.

Riona: I'd like to hear about the labs if you feel up to discussing. Most of the time I have no damn idea what I'm talking about, but I can hit the ground running and get a clue real quick.

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:59 AM

SIGMANUNKI


I think the main problem here is that people don't really get what a disorder actually is. In general, someone is clinically disordered if the behaviour negatively affects their life in a significant way and it pervades most, if not all, areas of their life. Also, these behaviours have to NOT have an obvious cause (more on this below).

So, given the above, the grieving widow cannot be diagnosed with major depressive disorder because her grief has an obvious cause. Similarly, with the child.

When it comes to the psychological (i.e. personality disorders), their might be an "obvious cause" but _not_ something that would indicate such a reaction or conduct. So, the definition holds.


I actually have a saying, It's not that I hate Psychiatry, it's that I hate Psychiatrists.

In other words, we can only know what we know and nothing more. Medicine is pretty much dancing around a fire worshiping it compared to real Science and Psychiatry is that to Medicine. We have to keep that in mind. The DSM is a "living document" for a reason. It's because they don't know everything and new information comes up all the time (something that Psychiatrists need to be reminded of). To freak out of this is nonsense i.e. we don't over surgeons, or engineers designing buildings/bridges, etc, etc, etc.


Basically, if you don't want to get screwed, do your research. But, don't use wikipedia as a primary source. Use it as a starting point. If you don't eventually end up at pubmed, you're either not done, or doing it wrong.

p.s. If you take anything written in the news media at face value, you're doing it wrong. Stop it. Check the sources and do your own research. There's so much spin, etc these days it's embarrassing.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 4:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Hey Sigma, it's been a while. Welcome back.

Yeah, I only use wikipedia when I want some reasonably tested information about some specific aspect of a disorder/illness or medicines used like the receptors and binding sites and pathways and such. Wikipedia is not all that convenient for diagnosis unless you already have an idea what you're looking at and are looking for the specific type or cause.

The assessment of psychiatry/psychology compared to medicine and both compared to science is about how I see it. All sciences have their basic models , but some sciences have more scientific rigour than others.

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:29 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Huh. Wikipedia told me that homeopathy was a subcategory of naturopathy. She done me wrong, that wikipedia.

Well, there is naturopathy and there is naturopathy.

Broadly speaking, naturopathy is any treatment model that relies on using the "vital force" of the body to heal itself with "natural" products. But in alternative medicine circles, naturopathy has a narrower definition. It means the use of vitamins, supplements, and herbs to support the body's natural healing, whereas homeopathy means the use of diluted homeopathic remedies to support the body's natural healing. Many people and practitioners use both.

But there are always loyalists who use mostly one and eschew the other. Both groups usually avoid medicine unless absolutely necessary.


-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 8:43 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
So, given the above, the grieving widow cannot be diagnosed with major depressive disorder because her grief has an obvious cause. Similarly, with the child.

She can be if her grief lasts more than 2 months and is characterized by "marked functional impairment."

Meaning, clinicians make a distinction between "normal" grief and "clinical" grief. So if you are still depressed after 2 months of grieving, they CAN diagnose you.

So bereavement gives you an extra 6 week "grace period" over a non-grieving person. Isn't that considerate of them?

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/mjrdepep.htm

Quote:

E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.



Quote:

SigmaNunki: If you don't eventually end up at pubmed, you're either not done, or doing it wrong.
I would say, if you don't eventually end up reading the original papers referenced at pubmed, you're either not done, or doing it wrong.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 9:05 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Have to say, if my wife of more than 22 years were to die, I'm fair certain I'd be grieving and depressed for more than a couple months.

In fact, I'm not sure I'd ever get over her.

I'd keep on living, I'm sure, but I can't see that there would be much joy in it.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:04 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Basically, if you don't want to get screwed, do your research. But, don't use wikipedia as a primary source. Use it as a starting point. If you don't eventually end up at pubmed, you're either not done, or doing it wrong.


Thank you, Sigma, for a my black-humor laugh of the day, that's sooo bizarrely true it's just unreal.

Although I often wind up buried in even more esoteric medical journals and review work cause once I get my teeth into something I chew on it pretty damn hard - especially when the official medical diagnosis is "Why don't know why, and have no clue how, and can only barely treat the symptoms so we gave up..."
THAT pissed me off, it did.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:46 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Kwicko,

Completely understandable.

DSM authors obviously all have bad marriages and/or are eager to overdiagnose. Which brings us back to the point of this thread.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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