REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Just so we're clear - waterboarding foreign born terrorists, bad.

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Saturday, October 8, 2011 06:26
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2990
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Monday, October 3, 2011 12:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Predator drone execution of US citizen, with out due process of law, good.


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1191817633001/predator-drones-take-out-al-a
wlaki
/


Any questions ?


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 12:53 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Alwhacky once voted Republican when he lived in New Mexico, so it was more than ok to kill him.








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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Alwhacky once voted Republican when he lived in New Mexico, so it was more than ok to kill him.




Hell, I once voted for a Democrat.... * peeks outside window, takes cover *




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:13 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Any questions ?

Is your point that the Left would've lambasted Bush for doing this?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:24 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Killer drones are now free to be openly gay, so all of us are in terrible danger now from Obama's assassination trigger finger. The long-dreaded slippery slope has arrived!










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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:33 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Umm, yeah. But the Left would lambaste Bush for damn near anything, just because. This ? They're actually applauding.

And just to be clear, alWhacky took up a call to arms against his home country, so I don't see why treason isn't being used more often. Traitors are often put to death, or use to be.

But yeah, for an administration that wanted to close Gitmo, hold the 9/11 trials in civilian courts, in Manhattan, so yeah, this seems a bit strange. Had Bush done this, to an American citizen, there'd be all sorts of marches, protests, cries of Islamo-phobia, racism, etc... but because Obama does it...

crickets.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:41 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Killer drones are now free to be openly gay, so all of us are in terrible danger now from Obama's assassination trigger finger. The long-dreaded slippery slope has arrived!












Lol, are these gay drones bad shots, or vengeful?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Umm, yeah. But the Left would lambaste Bush for damn near anything, just because. This ? They're actually applauding.

And just to be clear, alWhacky took up a call to arms against his home country, so I don't see why treason isn't being used more often. Traitors are often put to death, or use to be.

But yeah, for an administration that wanted to close Gitmo, hold the 9/11 trials in civilian courts, in Manhattan, so yeah, this seems a bit strange. Had Bush done this, to an American citizen, there'd be all sorts of marches, protests, cries of Islamo-phobia, racism, etc... but because Obama does it...

crickets.


Ok, perhaps you're right. But I suppose you at least will be consistent, and praise Obama for this strong and aggressive action to defend the country, as you would have done for Bush?

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:48 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



I got no problem w/ drones being sent to do this guy in. Obama, Bush, who ever. Bad guys like alWhacky need to be dead.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 1:51 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Killer drones are now free to be openly gay, so all of us are in terrible danger now from Obama's assassination trigger finger. The long-dreaded slippery slope has arrived!




Lol, are these gay drones bad shots, or vengeful?

It's not personal. It's just war.


The next generation of drones will actually fire missiles that say "sorry" right before they hit.








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Monday, October 3, 2011 2:04 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Quote:

Bad guys like alWhacky need to be dead.

This sounds like indirect praise. I sense Bush would've got more credit and appreciation than this but all in all, not bad!

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, October 3, 2011 2:15 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Umm, yeah. But the Left would lambaste Bush for damn near anything, just because. This ? They're actually applauding.

And just to be clear, alWhacky took up a call to arms against his home country, so I don't see why treason isn't being used more often. Traitors are often put to death, or use to be.

But yeah, for an administration that wanted to close Gitmo, hold the 9/11 trials in civilian courts, in Manhattan, so yeah, this seems a bit strange. Had Bush done this, to an American citizen, there'd be all sorts of marches, protests, cries of Islamo-phobia, racism, etc... but because Obama does it...

crickets.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Y'all must be listening to a different "the Left" than I am. Rachel Maddow voiced some legitimate concerns on Friday's show, including the idea that there should be an investigation into the legitimacy of doing such a thing, and it was noted that supposedly this is allowed in the authorization of force measure that allowed the U.S. to illegally and arbitrarily invade Iraq.

I'm still trying to find in the Constitution where it says it's fine to assassinate U.S. citizens without any charges, without any evidence presented, without any trial, and without any direct involvement in capital crimes.

Awlaki was not a good guy, but I have some serious issues with putting a U.S. citizen on a "hit list" on nothing more than someone's say-so.

I've heard quite a bit of questioning of this from "the Left". I'd suggest you quit letting "the Right" tell you what "the Left" is saying, and try listening in on your own, or reading up on it yourself.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 3, 2011 2:29 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




"I got no problem w/ drones being sent to do this guy in."

Torture? Great! Assassination of US citizens? Wonderful! Bombing civilians? Awesome! Illegal wiretaps? Marvelous!

Little Rappy, defender of freedom.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Monday, October 3, 2011 2:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Awlaki was not a good guy, but I have some serious issues with putting a U.S. citizen on a "hit list" on nothing more than someone's say-so.



How's that hopey-changey thing workin out for ya so far ?




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 3:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


If he's a citizen then technically they needed to give him a trial like any other citizen. Even if he is Lani incarnate and trash. Rules is rules. Apparently they thought they'd circumnavigate the rules? I guess I don't know much about the situation but it sounds fishy to me because of the whole citizen's rights thing. Whether the guy deserved to be droned isn't the point.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, October 3, 2011 3:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
If he's a citizen then technically they needed to give him a trial like any other citizen. Even if he is Lani incarnate and trash. Rules is rules. Apparently they thought they'd circumnavigate the rules? I guess I don't know much about the situation but it sounds fishy to me because of the whole citizen's rights thing. Whether the guy deserved to be droned isn't the point.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




This from the folks who told us that the war on terror could be fought in our judicial system.

war monger that I am, I still have to admit that the contradicting message that this administration is sending is astounding.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 4:59 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by RionaEire:
If he's a citizen then technically they needed to give him a trial like any other citizen. Even if he is Lani incarnate and trash. Rules is rules. Apparently they thought they'd circumnavigate the rules? I guess I don't know much about the situation but it sounds fishy to me because of the whole citizen's rights thing. Whether the guy deserved to be droned isn't the point.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya




This from the folks who told us that the war on terror could be fought in our judicial system.



It has been fought with much more success in our judicial system than it has in military tribunals.

Quote:


war monger that I am, I still have to admit that the contradicting message that this administration is sending is astounding.



At least you finally admit that you're a warmonger. Of course, while you still hate the President of the United States, you *DO* tend to enjoy it whenever someone gets killed.

By the way, that "hopey-changey thing" seems to be working out better for me than for you. After all, you're the one constantly whining and bitching about the President, and then when cornered, you admit he's really not much different from the last guy, who you loved and admired and held up as a "great patriot" for doing the kinds of things you hate the current guy for.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:00 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:


"I got no problem w/ drones being sent to do this guy in."

Torture? Great! Assassination of US citizens? Wonderful! Bombing civilians? Awesome! Illegal wiretaps? Marvelous!

Little Rappy, defender of freedom.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....




Remember, Rappy thinks the only way he can defend your freedom is by putting it away in a deep, dark hole and putting it under 24-hour surveillance, armed guard, and lock and key. It's the only way to truly be "free" in RappyWorld™.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, October 3, 2011 5:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


And as usual, your last 2 posts in this thread were void of any relevance or intelligent input, at all.

And as for Maddow.... seriously. No one listens to that guy.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, October 3, 2011 6:36 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Umm, yeah. But the Left would lambaste Bush for damn near anything, just because. This ? They're actually applauding.

And just to be clear, alWhacky took up a call to arms against his home country, so I don't see why treason isn't being used more often. Traitors are often put to death, or use to be.

But yeah, for an administration that wanted to close Gitmo, hold the 9/11 trials in civilian courts, in Manhattan, so yeah, this seems a bit strange. Had Bush done this, to an American citizen, there'd be all sorts of marches, protests, cries of Islamo-phobia, racism, etc... but because Obama does it...

crickets.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "




Y'all must be listening to a different "the Left" than I am. Rachel Maddow voiced some legitimate concerns on Friday's show, including the idea that there should be an investigation into the legitimacy of doing such a thing, and it was noted that supposedly this is allowed in the authorization of force measure that allowed the U.S. to illegally and arbitrarily invade Iraq.

I'm still trying to find in the Constitution where it says it's fine to assassinate U.S. citizens without any charges, without any evidence presented, without any trial, and without any direct involvement in capital crimes.

Awlaki was not a good guy, but I have some serious issues with putting a U.S. citizen on a "hit list" on nothing more than someone's say-so.

I've heard quite a bit of questioning of this from "the Left". I'd suggest you quit letting "the Right" tell you what "the Left" is saying, and try listening in on your own, or reading up on it yourself.


"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill



wot he sed ^

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:00 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
And as usual, your last 2 posts in this thread were void of any relevance or intelligent input, at all.

And as for Maddow.... seriously. No one listens to that guy.




And as usual, your entire life is void of any relevance or intelligent input, at all.

As to Maddow, her show seems to be holding its own, taking the second slot in the ratings for news shows that night.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:41 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


I'm wondering how this is so much different from the killing of Isoroku Yamamoto during WWII.

Although al-Awlaki was an American citizen, he was also an important enemy combatant, and seemingly a fair target on the battlefield.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:07 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Kwickie - your obsession with the lives of others is irrelevant to anything posted here. None of it in the least changes the fact that you are incapable of intelligent, coherent input.

But that is what you do, and who you are.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 3:09 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm wondering how this is so much different from the killing of Isoroku Yamamoto during WWII.

Although al-Awlaki was an American citizen, he was also an important enemy combatant, and seemingly a fair target on the battlefield.


Both of your points offer clear distinctions. Admiral Yamamoto was not a US citizen and al-Awlaki was not on a battlefield when he was executed. I would also note Yamamoto was flying on a military aircraft (which was a legitimate target with or without Yamamoto) in a war zone and the US was in a state of declared war (al-Awaki was in a neutral country having lunch).

In short Mr. al-Awlaki was denied his right to life without due process, a clear violation of his 14th Amendment rights. They claim he was a terrorist leader and all the evidence points to that fact, but to my knowledge no charges were ever brought and no indictments or warrants served on him. He was under all of our laws an innocent man because he had never been proven guilty. He was also denied an opportunity to defend himself in trial.

Many compare this to a cop shooting a bank robber or sniper shooting a hostage taker. These are not good comparisons because a cop cannot shoot a bank robber unless that person is endangering the cop or another person and is in that act of using or about to use lethal force. Force example, a cop cannot shoot someone who is trying to tickle another person to death using a feather, they can shoot someone who is shooting or preparing to shoot the cop or another person with a gun.

By all accounts these folks had stopped for lunch, nobody's life was in danger at that moment (unless the food was bad...it is Yemen).

I have no doubt the world is better off with this man dead. I think strategically his capture and interrogation would have been a better result. His execution without trial is a seperate question and one with a troubling answer...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 5:05 AM

DREAMTROVE


This was ordered?

Torturing suspects isn't due process. It's illegal. Armed predator drones are pure idiocy. When Obama said he was going to do this, I didn't imagine that the biggest idiot would be the one giving the orders. I assumed this would happen by mistake.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Huh. Again I seem to have missed it. I see shit all over the place questioning the drone-killing of al-Awlaki, mostly FROM the left...?

Salon: http://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald/

Sedalia Democrat:
Quote:

President Barack Obama steered the nation's war machine into uncharted territory Friday when a U.S. drone attacked a convoy in Yemen and killed two American citizens who had become central figures in al-Qaida.

It was believed to be the first instance in which a U.S. citizen was tracked and executed based on secret intelligence and the president's say-so. And it raised major questions about the limitations of presidential power. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_KILLING_AMERICANS?SITE=MOSED
&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT



Slate:
Quote:

That the U.S. government deliberately killed Awlaki—its own citizen—raises troubling legal questions.. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2011/09/anw
ar_alal_awlaki_obama_s_drone_strike_makes_america_safer_for_n.html.
]

Huffpost is especially pissed off:
Quote:

... since the Administration "predator-droned" Anwar al-Awlaki into the ground on Friday. (Yes, going forward, I recognize "predator drone" as a verb.)
First, let's consider the caption from TIME's "Anwar al-Awlaki in the United States" slideshow (keeping in mind -- regardless of any ambiguity in that title -- that al-Awlaki was born and raised an American).
.....
Unfortunately (but maybe not surprisingly, al-Awlaki now reduced to one more X-ed out evil-doer)... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shaw/anwar-al-awlaki_b_991241.ht
ml
see Darth Cheney applauding it, along with many on the right (of course, Darth wants an apology, too), but all I see is yelling from the left (not those in the GOVERNMENT, mind you, most seem to be towing the President's line, but the pundits, internet and news...)

You don't suppose Raptor just ASSUMED the left had no complaints, do you? Nah, he wouldn't do such a thing...

Would find more, but I gotta go walk the dogs...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 9:39 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This was ordered?

Torturing suspects isn't due process. It's illegal. Armed predator drones are pure idiocy. When Obama said he was going to do this, I didn't imagine that the biggest idiot would be the one giving the orders. I assumed this would happen by mistake.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.



Huh? Am I reading you correctly ? You think that this "hit", and that's what it was, could only come by the way of some 'mistake' ? How do you figure ? I mean, Barry's been Predator in Chief, with his ever increasing call for more and more drone attacks.

The Left has been under the impression that W's popularity was only because of his lust for kicking terrorists ( Islamic, that is ) ass, and so the more dead Jihaddists, the better. With the economy tanking, and his " jobs bill " doomed before it even got to Congress, The ONE needs a win, somewhere.

And now that Holder is committing perjury, we might need a whole new war to get the public's mind off of Fast and Furious.


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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:12 AM

DREAMTROVE


Rap,

I'm actually not disagreeing with you, except I think that W was a total disaster, and not very popular, and probably fed the growth of islamic terrorism.

But about this, my point was: When the president (Obama) was selling the idea of using armed predator drones as a strike vector, the worry was that this might kill americans by *accident* and I have to say it never dawned on me that they would order it to do so. I mean, barring a degeneration into 80s style post apoc sci-fi.

As for Bush, I don't buy his al-qaeda busting creds any more than I buy Obama's Osama story. These are fantasies, fiction, sold to television networks. Big govt. is pushing its own agenda, and the president is just a front man for the band who does a song and dance.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 10:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,

I'm actually not disagreeing with you, except I think that W was a total disaster, and not very popular, and probably fed the growth of islamic terrorism.



It grew under Clinton, as we tried to 'police' it , and we saw how well that worked out.

Quote:


But about this, my point was: When the president (Obama) was selling the idea of using armed predator drones as a strike vector, the worry was that this might kill americans by *accident* and I have to say it never dawned on me that they would order it to do so. I mean, barring a degeneration into 80s style post apoc sci-fi.

Ahh.., ok. I gotchya.

Quote:


As for Bush, I don't buy his al-qaeda busting creds any more than I buy Obama's Osama story. These are fantasies, fiction, sold to television networks. Big govt. is pushing its own agenda, and the president is just a front man for the band who does a song and dance.



Maybe, or maybe not. Just because Obama did something( or claimed as such ) I'm not going to dismiss the idea that it may have actually happened. Might not have played out like we were told, but I'm not sure I really WANT our top secret , covert ops shown on the evening news.


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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 12:03 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But the Left would lambaste Bush ... (if he did that) to an American citizen, there'd be all sorts of marches, protests, cries of Islamo-phobia, racism, etc... but because Obama does it...

crickets."

Any more news on the silence? B/c I'm finding all sorts of protests on 'the left'. Not so many from 'the right'.

Now, if this had been Bush, 'the right' would have peed all over themselves in delight. But since it's Obama ...

crickets.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,

I'm actually not disagreeing with you, except I think that W was a total disaster, and not very popular, and probably fed the growth of islamic terrorism.



It grew under Clinton, as we tried to 'police' it , and we saw how well that worked out.



Actually, it grew a great deal under Reagan, when he supplied and trained groups like the Taliban and called them "freedom fighters". He tried a military solution in Beirut, and got a whole bunch of Marines killed in the process, before cutting and running.

And then it (literally) EXPLODED under Dubya, to heights Osama himself could never have imagined.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:50 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

You don't suppose Raptor just ASSUMED the left had no complaints, do you? Nah, he wouldn't do such a thing...




Oh, I've little doubt that Rappy was told that by his handlers at FauxNews.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:54 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
I'm wondering how this is so much different from the killing of Isoroku Yamamoto during WWII.

Although al-Awlaki was an American citizen, he was also an important enemy combatant, and seemingly a fair target on the battlefield.


Both of your points offer clear distinctions. Admiral Yamamoto was not a US citizen and al-Awlaki was not on a battlefield when he was executed. I would also note Yamamoto was flying on a military aircraft (which was a legitimate target with or without Yamamoto) in a war zone and the US was in a state of declared war (al-Awaki was in a neutral country having lunch).

In short Mr. al-Awlaki was denied his right to life without due process, a clear violation of his 14th Amendment rights. They claim he was a terrorist leader and all the evidence points to that fact, but to my knowledge no charges were ever brought and no indictments or warrants served on him. He was under all of our laws an innocent man because he had never been proven guilty. He was also denied an opportunity to defend himself in trial.

Many compare this to a cop shooting a bank robber or sniper shooting a hostage taker. These are not good comparisons because a cop cannot shoot a bank robber unless that person is endangering the cop or another person and is in that act of using or about to use lethal force. Force example, a cop cannot shoot someone who is trying to tickle another person to death using a feather, they can shoot someone who is shooting or preparing to shoot the cop or another person with a gun.

By all accounts these folks had stopped for lunch, nobody's life was in danger at that moment (unless the food was bad...it is Yemen).

I have no doubt the world is better off with this man dead. I think strategically his capture and interrogation would have been a better result. His execution without trial is a seperate question and one with a troubling answer...

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.




Also, Yamamoto was a military commander for an enemy force. I've yet to see any evidence that al-Awlaki carried any such military rank.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 1:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Just so we're clear - waterboarding foreign born terrorists, bad.




Problem with the thread title is, we aren't just waterboarding FOREIGH-BORN people, and we aren't just waterboarding TERRORISTS. We're waterboarding any damn body we feel like doing it to, often on nothing more than supposition and faulty, illegally-obtained evidence. This includes U.S. citizens AND those proven to have nothing to do with terrorism in any way, shape, or form.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 2:43 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Any questions ?

Is your point that the Left would've lambasted Bush for doing this?

It's not personal. It's just war.




If it makes Obama happy, it is right

we obey Obama!!!!!

Bush = Bad

Obama = Good

It's totally cool with me that we started a new Middle Eastern war under the new regime and never pulled any of our previous troops out, even though that was the big promise beforehand.

It had to be done.

Commander and Chief....

Make It So!


(Disclaimer: I am a mindless Obamabot)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Tuesday, October 4, 2011 8:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Everything Hero said.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:45 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Predator drone execution of US citizen, with out due process of law, good.


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1191817633001/predator-drones-take-out-al-a
wlaki
/


Any questions ?



There is a huge difference in killing an enemy on the field of battle, and torturing him once his is a captive.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 8:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Bush = Bad

Obama = Good



Uh, that one's soooo old only Wulf and Raptor use it, and they know full well it's bullshit. You might want to catch up some; NOBODY here is 100% pro-Obama, we've discussed his shortcomings at great length, it's only the deliberately ignorant hyper-partisans who keep saying that. If you'd like to show yourself as a bit more of a thinking person, you'll have to do better.

I watched the video put up in the first post. Funny, I didn't hear a single word against it from FauxNews. So I guess they approve, too?

Nice to know YOU do, too, Raptor. But you're contradicting yourself; saying Bush would have been protested for doing it, but from the left "crickets" (which is a lie), seems to indicate you think it was WRONG to do, yet you said clearly: "I got no problem w/ drones being sent to do this guy in. Obama, Bush, who ever. Bad guys like alWhacky need to be dead". So what, exactly is your beef? Not that it's wrong, obviously, you're applauding right along. That Obama did it? I know that's reason enough for you to hate anything--but again, contradiction. That (you think) people on the left aren't upset about it? That's been proven untrue.

I think you get so caught up in your own bullshit you trip over your own feet too often.

JS:
Quote:

The next generation of drones will actually fire missiles that say "sorry" right before they hit.
I love it!

Actually, the real problem with the thread title is that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the subject matter. Nobody seems to have noticed that. Probably because it's just typical Raptor and few pay attention. Just found it amusing.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 2:27 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Like I said before Niki2, I think Bush was the worst president we've ever had before Obama. If you look back at any of my posts here 5 or 6 years ago when I was posting heavily I hated where this country was headed under his direction.

The funny thing is, I also said that people were fools for believing in any supposed "change" coming from the new guy who was a Chicago/Illinois/Cook County politician who barely had any experience governing anybody, let alone a country. (Having grown up in Cook Co, IL, I know a thing or two about corrupt politics).

Shortly after that I didn't post in the RWED for years pretty much. Much more important things to be doing, and not a lot of time for the stress of fighting constantly here.



I'm definitely no right-wingnut, and my past here speaks for itself.



I just find it amusing how much back pedaling the left-wingnuts have been doing since the "savior" got into office and everything since has been business as usual (in some ways, to the 10th degree).



I really only feel sorry for black folks about the whole ordeal here.

Obama has sent them back 20 years when it comes to running the country. I think it will be a very long time until another black man or woman runs this country. The big shame of it is that Obama isn't any more black than Tiger Woods is, but the media latched onto that and largely threw away his other roots.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 2:42 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Predator drone execution of US citizen, with out due process of law, good.


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1191817633001/predator-drones-take-out-al-a
wlaki
/


Any questions ?



There is a huge difference in killing an enemy on the field of battle, and torturing him once his is a captive.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.





Define "the field of battle".




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 2:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Any questions ?

Is your point that the Left would've lambasted Bush for doing this?

It's not personal. It's just war.




If it makes Obama happy, it is right

we obey Obama!!!!!

Bush = Bad

Obama = Good

It's totally cool with me that we started a new Middle Eastern war under the new regime and never pulled any of our previous troops out, even though that was the big promise beforehand.

It had to be done.

Commander and Chief....

Make It So!


(Disclaimer: I am a mindless Obamabot)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.




Well, at least you were honest about being mindless...


You may have missed it, but most of the people bitching about Obama doing this are lefties. "Obamabots", as you call them. The right seems VERY cool with this kind of behavior, because it's what they've always wanted - the ability to simply have anyone who disagrees with them killed.

Also, you may have missed it, but I wasn't exactly cool with getting us involved in Libya, either. Funny thing is, conservatives insisted Obama should do it - right up until he actually did it, of course. Go figure. Hypocrisy - it's just one of the "values" conservatives cherish.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:14 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
Quote:

Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:

Any questions ?

Is your point that the Left would've lambasted Bush for doing this?

It's not personal. It's just war.




If it makes Obama happy, it is right

we obey Obama!!!!!

Bush = Bad

Obama = Good

It's totally cool with me that we started a new Middle Eastern war under the new regime and never pulled any of our previous troops out, even though that was the big promise beforehand.

It had to be done.

Commander and Chief....

Make It So!


(Disclaimer: I am a mindless Obamabot)

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.




Well, at least you were honest about being mindless...


You may have missed it, but most of the people bitching about Obama doing this are lefties. "Obamabots", as you call them. The right seems VERY cool with this kind of behavior, because it's what they've always wanted - the ability to simply have anyone who disagrees with them killed.

Also, you may have missed it, but I wasn't exactly cool with getting us involved in Libya, either. Funny thing is, conservatives insisted Obama should do it - right up until he actually did it, of course. Go figure. Hypocrisy - it's just one of the "values" conservatives cherish.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill






Sorry.....

I missed a lot of the political "jockeying for position" here.

I'm an equal oppurtunity hater.




Really..... do you think it makes me happy that some ultra-conservative-religious-right-wingunt might get into power soon???????

Make no mistake

None of this makes me happy.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." ~Shepherd Book

BTW... I love my General Discussion Peeps. If you feel a strong need to judge me on RWED discussions I've had in the General Discussion, I welcome it, but I also say that they are two different worlds......

And while my core never wavers and though I may say things you don't like in the RWED, I'd never say them in General Discussions and I hope you would do the same.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:33 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Define "the field of battle".



Any area where there is an ongoing conflict.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:48 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by m52nickerson:
Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Define "the field of battle".



Any area where there is an ongoing conflict.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.




Wall Street? Wisconsin?

Egypt?

Syria?

Korea? (Remember, we're still technically at war with North Korea!)

At we at war with Yemen now? Did I miss a memo?


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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:50 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Let me edit that, armed conflict.

Although this place is like a war zone sometimes.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"I just find it amusing how much back pedaling the left-wingnuts have been doing since the "savior" got into office ..."

Who is that? Can you name names? Personally, I was ALWAYS very clear - I
voted for Obama b/c he was better than McCain. McCain, I figured, had sold his soul to the same people that ran Bush, for the chance at being president.



They would be doing the same under McCain as under Bush, only MORE. B/c McCain would be their vindication.

I always said that Obama was not a game changer, he was a game player. You could tell by how he rose up through the ranks - knowing where the power was and insinuating himself in.

I really don't think that makes me - or a lot of people here - Obama bots.

Some people voted out of hope. But since then they have not spared the criticism.

I simply don't find the same kind of unquestioning, uncritical authority-loving hero-worship now among 'the left' for Obama as there was for Bush among 'the right'.


Remember when teachers, public employees, Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS crashed the stock market, wiped out half of our 401Ks, took trillions in taxpayer funded bailouts, spilled oil in the Gulf of Mexico, gave themselves billions in bonuses, and paid no taxes?

Yeah, me neither....

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Wednesday, October 5, 2011 5:31 PM

DREAMTROVE


Rap,

I think we're safer with all the information available. I mean, save personal privacy, under which I would put things like troop locations.

I'm concerned that there was an insider involved, or perhaps a couple. I'm tending towards a hybrid theory, there was an outsider, obviously, and it may well have been Bin Laden. I think the admin. in particular I think Richard Clarke jumped to that conclusion because he had an obsession about the man, but it was not actually OBL's involvement in 9.11 I was doubting, it was Obama's recent tag-and-bag and throw in the sea mission to kill Osama.

As for Clinton, yeah, sorry, forgot that. You're right. Clinton started the crusade in '98, not very effective. I would argue that none of the three were effective, the jihad looks as strong as ever.

When we get into interventions and covert ops, I would like the information to come to light, I think that Julian Assange and co are doing the right thing.

The problem with all the cloak and dagger is that it devolves into its own internal socialism, where you have one group of elites making decisions, and when there are fewer brains in the decision-making, the decisions get dumber.

This sort of thing worries me:

Muammar Qaddafi, a less than ideal ally, occasionally funding, trading, or aiding islamic militias (he's an islamic military dictator) but a tentative ally in the war on terror and on the WMD ban, and generally non-interventionist, and a relatively stable leader of a non-radical state.

When you go in and depose him to create something, you put in something else that, really, you don't know what you're going to get. It's like taking a halfway decent stack and putting it on 20 and spinning the wheel. When stories start to surface that the new rebel regime that's taking hold is ethnically cleansing cities of black people, I get concerned.

Change is not always good. It might have been more appropriate for there to have been some checks on that process before the decision was made and put into action.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, October 6, 2011 6:09 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


6ix, the "savior" thing is long past, as well. Nobody here has EVER thought Obama was a savior, or any of the other idiotic thing our right-wingers dredge up. I didn't like him either, didn't vote for him in the primary and only voted for him in the general because Bush was a worse option, which I still believe. Bad as Obama is, if Bush had "stayed on course" or McCain had won (in which case he'd have done the same), we'd be in worse shape than we are even now, in my opinion.. I'm a liberal independent, so lumping goes both ways.

I never said you were any party, merely that it's only the hyper-partisan folk here who do the "Bush bad, Obama good" shit and the "savior" crap, etc.. I don't know anyone here who EXPECTED miracles.

The MEDIA latched onto his being half Black? You gotta be kidding! Sure, they're partly to blame in that, but they're not the ones sending around monkey shots and the other bullshit, making transparent statements hinting at his race and claiming he's Muslim, etc. Shees...

What you call political jockeying for position is no more than the typical political arguments happening on more forums than you can count, which has been going on as long as there were forums. Given you haven't been here for a while, as you said, perhaps you might make at least a SMALL effort to refrain from speaking in absolutes. The impression you give definitely resembles that of our more unpleasant right-wingers when it comes to what you say about the left. If you want to be recognized as neither right nor left, it might behoove you to get to know people before slamming them into categories. We are a diverse group; some agree with some parts of things, disagree with others. Nobody agrees on everything.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Sig said, not for the first time. Especially
Quote:

I simply don't find the same kind of unquestioning, uncritical authority-loving hero-worship now among 'the left' for Obama as there was for Bush among 'the right'.
The only PREDICTABLE posters here are Wulf and Raptor...if you want to be lumped with them, that's fine, but make it your decision.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, October 7, 2011 2:49 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Actually, it grew a great deal under Reagan, when he supplied and trained groups like the Taliban and called them "freedom fighters". He tried a military solution in Beirut, and got a whole bunch of Marines killed in the process, before cutting and running.

And then it (literally) EXPLODED under Dubya, to heights Osama himself could never have imagined.



It grew because the IslamoNazis wanted it to grow. But , I guess you'd be just fine with letting the Soviets over run Afghanistan, and then where next.... Pakistan ? Iran ? Just let them march right to the Indian ocean ? You're just not that bright, are you? The old USSR, with the oil fields of the Mid East, right on their door step, and a warm water port to boot. Yeah, what could go wrong with THAT picture ?

Beirut? Hell, that was a totally separate issue from Afghanistan. But I guess I can see how , in your thimble sized brain, it's all the same.

And I guess you also forget how many cruise missiles Clinton launched, at the Sudan, Afghanistan, and Iraq. And one of those attacks on the eve of his impeachment vote...a clear 'wag the dog' maneuver.

Make no mistake of who the villains are here. Islamic radicals. The issue is, what should be done about them.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Friday, October 7, 2011 3:06 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Make no mistake of who the villains are here. Islamic radicals. The issue is, what should be done about them.



Did you ever ask your self why they are radical?

You are fore the most part right about the USSR. The problem is after we gave people guns to fight off the Russians we stopped giving a good gorram. We should have helpped them then rebuild their country. Instead we left them to use the only tools they had, the weapons they were given.

Also don't talk to people about civil conversation if you are going to be dumb enough to use phrases like IslamoNazis.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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