REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Democrats cancelled my American Airlines flight

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 06:27
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Saturday, April 12, 2008 2:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Thanks to the pin head Democrats in Congress, I won't get to see my nephew graduate from his USAF flight training school. I had planned to attend along w/ other family members for several months, but thanks to some a-hole politicians, I missed it.

I get a call from American Airlines around 5pm on Thurs that my 8am flight on Friday, April 11 has been cancelled. They have no flights from Atlanta to Dallas that day. Having booked my travel plans weeks in advance, and with 1000's of passengers scrambling to find alternate plans, any hope of rescheduling was gone. Since the FAA started grounding flights on Tuesday, I had been following the developments in the news rather closely. Surely it wouldn't continue all the way until Friday, right ? WRONG. The FAA continued to ground flights on Wed, then Thurs, and then finally on Friday. What really chapped my ass was how the Dems made this a pissing contest between Congress and the FAA. I heard on the radio that one Dem congressman had said this whole issue could have been done over a period of months, but because of politics, and wanting to APPEAR as if they were doing something, the order was instead given to get the inspections done immediately.


Quote:

Grounded: Air travelers wonder what's amiss
Ilana DeBare, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, April 11, 2008

For hundreds of thousands of American Airlines passengers left in the lurch by canceled flights this week, the transportation chaos might seem like an arbitrary act of the air travel gods.
But American Airlines' decision to cancel more than 3,000 flights this week is part of a larger political drama playing out over airline safety and regulation.
Congress has been putting pressure on the Federal Aviation Administration to tighten its safety procedures after several FAA employees testified recently that Southwest Airlines had been allowed to keep 47 planes in the air despite missing inspection deadlines.
In response, the FAA began a new round of airline inspections - which ultimately led to American grounding the planes this week.
The FAA has become "very careful about ensuring absolute compliance," said John Cox, aviation consultant with Safety Operating Systems in Washington, D.C.

What was behind this week's cancellations? What do they mean for travelers and airlines in the future?
Why did this wiring issue come up now?

Last month, several FAA inspectors went public with charges that the agency was looking the other way on possible safety problems at Southwest.
Among other things, the FAA allowed 47 Southwest planes to continue flying even though the airline had missed deadlines to inspect them for possible cracks in their skins.
Congressional Democrats blasted the FAA for developing too cozy a relationship with the airlines. The FAA responded by levying a $10.2 million fine on Southwest and starting an audit of how all airlines were complying with several safety regulations, including some wiring rules that airlines were supposed to meet in 2006.
American canceled more than 400 flights last month to check and fix its wiring. But this week, FAA inspectors discovered that 15 out of 19 American jets they examined were out of compliance with the wiring specifications.
A year ago, American might have been able to persuade the FAA to allow a slight deviation, but not in the wake of the Southwest scandal and congressional scrutiny.
"Nothing in the rules has changed," said Cox. "But the manner in which the rules can be complied with is up for interpretation. And the interpretations have tightened up."


Has the FAA been too lenient toward the airlines in recent years?

That's the allegation made by congressional Democrats. They particularly criticize a policy put in place by the Bush administration under which the airlines don't have to pay a fine if they voluntarily disclose and correct a safety violation.
"I fear that complacency may have set in at the highest levels of FAA management, reflecting a pendulum swing away from vigorous enforcement of compliance, toward a carrier-favorable, cozy relationship," transportation committee chairman Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., said last week.
The FAA and airlines deny that regulators have been unduly lax.
"The self-disclosure program allows a spirit of cooperation that has contributed to the fact we now have the safest aviation system in the world," said David Castelveter, spokesman for the Air Transport Association, an airline trade group.
But some outside observers say that the industry's strong safety record has made it easy for regulators to let minor airline violations slide.
"At first I thought the FAA overreacted," said William Waldock, a professor of safety science at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Arizona. "But in hindsight, I think they got complacent and let their guard down. So maybe people don't do things to the letter of the law, which can open the door to (safety) getting worse."




It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 4:55 AM

DEADLOCKVICTIM


stupid democrats... yeah, they probably should have just shut the f**k up - maybe you could have crashed fairly close to your destination....

edit: BTW i have driven from Atlanta to Dallas in a day - so call a cab for crying out loud

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:16 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
stupid democrats... yeah, they probably should have just shut the f**k up - maybe you could have crashed fairly close to your destination....

edit: BTW i have driven from Atlanta to Dallas in a day - so call a cab for crying out loud




I've done it twice, long drive but doable.

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:39 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Funny Rap,

You have pretty consistently stood up for the rights of your government to take whatever measures it likes for the sake of " security ", but now you are critical when they inconvenience you for the sake of public safety ?




The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Funny Rap,

You have pretty consistently stood up for the rights of your government to take whatever measures it likes for the sake of " security ", but now you are critical when they inconvenience you for the sake of public safety ?




The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.



This had nothing to do w/ 'security' or even public safety, as aviation experts will tell you. I had more to do w/ politics, and the money hungry Dems all bent out of shape that the Bush administration hasn't been sticking it to the airlines via fines for every petty little rule and regulation.

For you idiots who think I should " get a cab?? " Get bent ! Dallas wasn't my final destination, it was Wichita Falls, TX. I've been working 10-12 hr days Wed and Thur to free up my schedule just to leave on 8am Fri morning. While still working at 5:30pm ( when I found my flight was cancelled ) , and w/ a couple of hrs left to go, I would still have to come home, shower, change clothes, pack, etc... and then , on the fly, figure out my driving route to N. Texas. Of course I'm doing all this after a full day's work, and if all went well, best I'd be able to do is leave by 10pm ? So, w/ no sleep after a full day's work, I'm suppose to hop in my truck and drive 931 miles ? That's 14+ hrs, as Google sees it. Lets see.... if everything works well, I arrive in WF at around 2pm, w/ out any sleep. As there are events going on all day, I'd have to miss those, grab a couple of hrs sleep, then get showered and in a suit by 5pm , ready to go. Technically doable, yes, but I'm not of college age anymore. Sorry folks, in the real world, that's simply not happening.

You pin heads simply want to play the role of contrarian, mainly because of my political views. You'll say any ridiculous thing to take the opposite position of what ever I say, simply because it's me saying it. Instead of making this personal, just deal w/ the facts and accept that it's the Dems who screwed over a million travelers, and I happened to be one of them.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:00 AM

PIRATECAT


I would be mad too. But AA has always been cozy with the feds. Its coming down after 9/11 that they dumped all their maintenance costs on to third party. AA puts off in house because its closed. So they wait till they get cheap maintenance from Earl Schaubs jet express. There you go. Now ya can't fly. The airline industry is a joke. You pay them to hassle you from point a to point b. Its not your dad's airline of the sky TWA but Trailways of the sky. No parking, Homeland security take your clothes off please, hey fun drunks at the bars 9am, and how about that tarmac time. And its just gonna get worse.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 7:40 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Funny Rap,

You have pretty consistently stood up for the rights of your government to take whatever measures it likes for the sake of " security ", but now you are critical when they inconvenience you for the sake of public safety ?




The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.



This had nothing to do w/ 'security' or even public safety, as aviation experts will tell you. I had more to do w/ politics, and the money hungry Dems all bent out of shape that the Bush administration hasn't been sticking it to the airlines via fines for every petty little rule and regulation.

For you idiots who think I should " get a cab?? " Get bent ! Dallas wasn't my final destination, it was Wichita Falls, TX. I've been working 10-12 hr days Wed and Thur to free up my schedule just to leave on 8am Fri morning. While still working at 5:30pm ( when I found my flight was cancelled ) , and w/ a couple of hrs left to go, I would still have to come home, shower, change clothes, pack, etc... and then , on the fly, figure out my driving route to N. Texas. Of course I'm doing all this after a full day's work, and if all went well, best I'd be able to do is leave by 10pm ? So, w/ no sleep after a full day's work, I'm suppose to hop in my truck and drive 931 miles ? That's 14+ hrs, as Google sees it. Lets see.... if everything works well, I arrive in WF at around 2pm, w/ out any sleep. As there are events going on all day, I'd have to miss those, grab a couple of hrs sleep, then get showered and in a suit by 5pm , ready to go. Technically doable, yes, but I'm not of college age anymore. Sorry folks, in the real world, that's simply not happening.

You pin heads simply want to play the role of contrarian, mainly because of my political views. You'll say any ridiculous thing to take the opposite position of what ever I say, simply because it's me saying it. Instead of making this personal, just deal w/ the facts and accept that it's the Dems who screwed over a million travelers, and I happened to be one of them.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "



Hmmmm skipping B,C, and D -checks and operating aircraft without valid CA's has nothing to do with flight safety......

and your Congress shouldn't call the FAA's lack of enforcement or monitoring involving this process.

Talking out of your ass again, sorry. These are not petty little rules

Here is some past examples of what the sliding inspections was helped cause

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_261

" A special inspection conducted by the FAA in April 2000 of Alaska Airlines uncovered widespread significant deficiencies that "the FAA should have uncovered earlier."[6] The investigation concluded that "FAA surveillance of Alaska Airlines had been deficient for at least several years."[6] The NTSB noted that in July 2001, an FAA panel determined that Alaska Airlines had corrected the previously identified deficiencies. However several factors led the Board to question "the depth and effectiveness of Alaska Airlines corrective actions" and "the overall adequacy of Alaska Airlines' maintenance program."[6]

Systematic problems were identified by the investigation in the FAA's oversight of maintenance programs, including inadequate staffing, its approval process of maintenance interval extensions, and the aircraft certification requirements. "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

" After the accident, a full-scale investigation was launched by the United States National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). It concluded that the accident was caused by metal fatigue exacerbated by crevice corrosion [3] (the plane operated in a salt water environment). The root cause of the problem was failure of an epoxy adhesive to bond to the aluminum sheets of the fuselage together when the B737 was manufactured. Where it failed to bond the two surfaces together, water could enter the gap and start the corrosion process. Because the corrosion products have a larger volume than the underlying metal, the two sheets were forced apart, putting extra stress on the rivets also used to hold them together. The age of the aircraft became a key issue (it was 19 years old at the time of the accident and had sustained a remarkable number of takeoff-landing cycles — 89,090, second most cycles for a plane in the world at the time -- well beyond the 75,000 trips it was designed to sustain). Aircraft now receive additional maintenance checks as they age. However, several other aircraft operating under similar environments did not present the same phenomenon. A deep and thorough inspection of Aloha Airlines by NTSB revealed that the most extensive and longer "D Check" was performed in several early morning installments, instead of a full uninterrupted maintenance procedure. They also found that eddy-current testing inspections on the fuselage skin, as prescribed by Boeing, had not been performed "

I only spent three years in the aviation industry, I would not call myself an expert, but I know that in Canada if an airline was to mess up even a tenth as bad, its entire fleet would be grounded immediately. I am not familiar with the rules and standards in the US, only Canada, and some British regulation, but can only assume your standards are at least comparable. When the regulating body is found not to be compelling the rules to be followed, why does that body exist?



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:43 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thanks to the pin head Democrats in Congress, I won't get to see my nephew graduate from his USAF flight training school.





Never mind, I'm sure you'l see him on the news when he blows away some innocent civies in Iraq / Afghanistan or Frags some allied service personel in a Blue-on-Blue "Accident".


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Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:51 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sorry Gino, but you're showing your ass again, these ARE petty little rules. It's widely recognized by those who know wtf they're talking about that these are more about compliance issues than safety issues. It's already been stated that had the S.W. incident not occurred, there'd be no immediate rush to ground every damn plain for such a minor issue. And those other incidents have no bearing on what A.A. went through this week. None what so ever.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 8:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thanks to the pin head Democrats in Congress, I won't get to see my nephew graduate from his USAF flight training school.





Never mind, I'm sure you'l see him on the news when he blows away some innocent civies in Iraq / Afghanistan or Frags some allied service personel in a Blue-on-Blue "Accident".




You are such a clueless , worthless little piece of go se, I hope some Islamo nut case mistakes you for another Dutch film maker.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:23 AM

MEIMEICOBB


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
But some outside observers say that the industry's strong safety record has made it easy for regulators to let minor airline violations slide.
"At first I thought the FAA overreacted," said William Waldock, a professor of safety science at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Arizona. "But in hindsight, I think they got complacent and let their guard down. So maybe people don't do things to the letter of the law, which can open the door to (safety) getting worse."




Please, ignore the politics for one gorram minute! Not everything has to do with one person's political affiliations. Yes, the democrats suggested that the FAA was getting lazy and allowing things to slide, but as point out above, one small thing being allowed by can only open the door for bigger issues to slide by, and so on and so forth. Yes, the open-ended policy that's in place is great, but that is not where the issue lies; it lies in the fact that companies aren't complying with federal laws on deadlines and safety regulations that prevent planes from falling out of the sky.

The wiring may or may not be a problem, unless some factor that they didn't know about comes into play and it causes the landing gear to malfunction. I'm not sure if anyone remembers that plane from a few years ago that caught on fire on the tarmac because the landing gear failed.

Then you have to consider the legal parts of this. Southwest just got sued for how much? And they're already losing profits because of gas prices, lack of consumer interest, and now they have to shut down several planes in order to fix them?

"The FAA responded by levying a $10.2 million fine on Southwest and starting an audit of how all airlines were complying with several safety regulations, including some wiring rules that airlines were supposed to meet in 2006.
American canceled more than 400 flights last month to check and fix its wiring. But this week, FAA inspectors discovered that 15 out of 19 American jets they examined were out of compliance with the wiring specifications."

If American didn't comply with those standards back in 2006 and they are only just now taking a look at it... that compels me not to fly American. That is what Congress is seeing; and just because an article quotes one Democrat and says that the majority of Dems are pushing for it doesn't make it something 'retarded' or 'political' - it just means that these people who are supposed to be enforcing our laws are doing their job, which is to make sure that the laws that are set forth are followed so that the American people are safe.

Unless of course, you don't mind risking your life when you fly, you don't mind that companies are allowed to slack off when even the slightest malfunction or error could cause a plane to crash or land improperly. I however would like to think that my leaders are actually trying to help me, actually trying to do something that prevents harm from coming to me. It's all fine and dandy that you want to put a political lemon twist into every drink you find, but sometimes you just can't, and I think that this is one of those occasions.

:D




http://outofgas.proboards88.com << Go here and join.

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:29 AM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry Gino, but you're showing your ass again, these ARE petty little rules.



No. They aren't.

Quote:

It's widely recognized by those who know wtf they're talking about that these are more about compliance issues than safety issues.


Compliance is a safety issue. Sure any given inspection is unlikely to find an immediately threatening issue but not inspecting means not finding the problems until they occur. Which is usually after people die because of them.

Quote:

It's already been stated that had the S.W. incident not occurred, there'd be no immediate rush to ground every damn plain for such a minor issue.


Well yea had the fact that inspections weren't occurring not come to light inspections would still not be occurring. The fault here lies entirely with the current administration not doing it's regulatory job properly and with airlines that apparently don't really care if their passengers live or die.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:57 PM

STORYMARK


Damn them! DAAAAAAAAMN THEM for putting safety above Rappy's travel plans.

The bastards.

Yet if Republicans has ordered this, he'd be bitching that the evil Democratic congress had been letting safety slide for too long, endangering the lives of Americans.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:08 PM

DAVESHAYNE


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Damn them! DAAAAAAAAMN THEM for putting safety above Rappy's travel plans.



Yes and to be clear I do think it sucks that the Au-man wasn't able to make his trip. I just think he's blaming the wrong people for the problem.

David

'Geeks can't admit that anything worthwhile was invented before 1981. Soon, "making cocoa" will be called "milk hacking."' - Lore Sjoberg

I has myspace - http://www.myspace.com/daveshayneforpresident

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:16 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by daveshayne:
Yes and to be clear I do think it sucks that the Au-man wasn't able to make his trip. I just think he's blaming the wrong people for the problem.

David



Okay, yeah, fair point. I guess I can be as reactionary against Rap as he is against the Dems.

So, sincerely dude, sorry your trip got axed.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Damn them! DAAAAAAAAMN THEM for putting safety above Rappy's travel plans.

The bastards.

Yet if Republicans has ordered this, he'd be bitching that the evil Democratic congress had been letting safety slide for too long, endangering the lives of Americans.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Not MY travel plans, but those of over a million passengers. And for what ? Some political pissing contest ? If the GOP had done the same thing and for the same reasons, I'd be just as , if not more ticked off. And THAT is the point of this thread in the 1st place. That Governments are good for one thing, gettin' in the way of us common folk. This time, as it traditionally more often the case, it was the Democrats who had their finger in everyone's pie. ( Thankfully it wasn't one of Clinton's cuban cigars )

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:13 PM

STORYMARK


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Not MY travel plans...



Then why'd you title the thread that way....?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:52 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Not MY travel plans...



Then why'd you title the thread that way....?

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."



Not JUST my travel plans. That better?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:49 AM

FLETCH2


The most truthful header would be "American Airlines made me miss my nephew's graduation!'



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Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:28 AM

SIMONWHO


This thread is funny on so many levels, I can't even count them all.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:32 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fletch2:
The most truthful header would be "American Airlines made me miss my nephew's graduation!'





It was the FAA, feeling the heat from the Dem congressmen. Not AA. They didn't intentionally piss off their customers and take a multi million $$$ hit for snorts and giggles.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:40 AM

FLETCH2


They were told to do this work 2 years ago, had they done it at the time during routine maintenance then you wouldn't have been disrupted.

It's like complaining that the local health department "inconvenienced" you by closing your favorite restaurant, when in actuality they closed it because the restaurant had rats. It's AA's fault for not keeping it's house in order, when they were found out they were compelled to do the work immediately and all at once.

Look on this like a legal contract. Say you signed a contract with a company to paint your fence while you were on vacation. When you come home the fence still isn't painted so you use your legal rights to make them paint the fence that same day. They had the chance to take their time and do it but they didn't, now they need to pull in 5 times the number of guy's to get it done on your timetable and 5 other folks don't get their fences painted that day.

In that case, would the folks whose fences are not painted right to blame YOU for upholding your legal rights or the painting company for not executing their agreed contract with you?



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Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:19 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


"It's already been stated that had the S.W. incident not occurred, there'd be no immediate rush to ground every damn plain for such a minor issue."

Oh, you mean the stupid minor issue of not being able to retract the nose landing gear due to faulty wiring ? Oh, THAT stupid minor issue !

Rap, you are such a stupid ass.

***************************************************************
And I believe you mean plane, as in airplane, not plain.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:09 AM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by SimonWho:
This thread is funny on so many levels, I can't even count them all.



Like the fact people still try to convince AURaptor that he is wrong about something......


I still think he is really Stephen Colberts secret online persona



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:59 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


RAP_ Have you ever thought that maybe if the airlines had DONE THEIR INSPECTIONS ON TIME this wouldn't have happened? That you'd trust your safety to the airlines- who are... as I'm sure even YOU'D admit... in the business to make money, ie. cut corners every chance they get?

Whoa. You're just a fucking junkie is all. You're wedded to your own little world. And you have NO IDEA who your real enemy is. I'm afraid you'll just have to hit bottom before you realize that you're utterly, dangerously wrong.

BTW- How's that economy going for ya?

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 1:07 PM

SIMONWHO


The economy going to hell is also the Democrats fault. As is high oil prices. And the fact that Auraptor's chosen sports team/individual never wins. All the Democrats fault because of, you know, the reason. Thing. Therein. To.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by rue:
"It's already been stated that had the S.W. incident not occurred, there'd be no immediate rush to ground every damn plain for such a minor issue."

Oh, you mean the stupid minor issue of not being able to retract the nose landing gear due to faulty wiring ? Oh, THAT stupid minor issue !

Rap, you are such a stupid ass.




It's not faulty wiring, you pig lover. At issue is whether or not the compliance was followed TO THE LETTER, and whether or not the ties for the bundles were spaced at 1", and not the destructive, horrible and wrong spacing of 1 1/2 " - THE HORROR !!

Quote:

The lacing cord must be installed exactly according to the FAA's 2006 AD, airline and federal officials say



The bureaucracy of BIG GOVERNMENT is what will take down this , and many other great nations.





It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:29 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Airline executives said they thought they had fixed the wiring two weeks ago, when they canceled more than 400 flights to inspect and in some cases fix the shielding around the wires in their MD-80 aircraft.

DALLAS — Business trips and vacations were disrupted for tens of thousands of travelers Wednesday as American Airlines canceled more than 1,000 flights — nearly half its schedule — to fix faulty wiring that could cause a short-circuit or even a fire and explosion The issue stems from an order that the Federal Aviation Administration gave airlines in September 2006 — and gave airlines until last month to meet — about the bundling of wires in the backup power system for the fuel pump of the MD-80 airplanes. The fear is that improperly bundled wires could rub, leading to an electrical short or even fire.

***************************************************************
Sounds like there's a little more than bundling going on - something to do with shielding perhaps ? And, who do you blame for the fact that AA was given one and a half years to fix the problems and failed to do so ? Just out of curiosity.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:58 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Sorry, but that report is misleading , to be blunt. It was about the lacing of wire bundles, and nothing else. The FAA specs call for 1 " spacing. Any more or less isn't up to code. THAT is what this is all about. Take a moment to wrap your brain around that for a bit. They add in the scare factor to make the whole issue seem credible, when in fact, it's not.


Seen any MD 80's exploding mid air, or splatting on the runways, when their nose gear doesn't come down?

No ?

Huh.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 3:13 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Ehhh, again, you are wrong. Gotta break that habit, dude. The problem is with the nose gear not coming UP. See the difference ? And yes, there have been a significant number of problems from that.


http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/08/griffin.landing.gear/index.html?imw=Y
&iref=mpstoryemail


CNN has learned that American's fleet of MD-80 planes has recorded 23 landing gear problems in the last few months; several have resulted in emergency landings. Pilots say the Fort Worth-based airline and the Federal Aviation Administration are not doing enough to find a solution.


***************************************************************
Now WHO exactly is responsible for the nose gear not coming up ? The democrats you say ? HHHhhmmmm. You're going to have to work to make a case for that little story.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 3:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I'll bet you dollars to donuts that it's NOT the fault of the lacing which holds the wire bundles to the frame.

Quote:

Pilots say the Fort Worth-based airline and the Federal Aviation Administration are not doing enough to find a solution.


TRANSLATION: We dunno what the problem is. ( Other than maybe old planes, mostly built by McDonnell Douglas, and not Boeing )

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:11 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Actually the initial source of the 1" spacing came from McDonnel Douglas after the remediation's after this accident investagation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swissair_Flight_111#TSB_Findings



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:19 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Why the hell is the MD-80 aka DC-9, which they renamed to MD-80 with a few cosmetic changes since public perception of the DC-9 being completely unsafe due to many incidents that no one wanted to fly on one... still in the air anyway ?

THAT aircraft has about the most piss poor safety record of any commercial aircraft ever used in the commercial carrier industry, while the Boeing 737 has the best, imop.

Back before I quit flying due to not liking TSA shakedowns and hassle, the 737 was the only plane I would get on, and by preference, flown by Southwest Airlines - say what you will about this incident, they've NEVER killed a passenger, and no other airline I am aware of can say that.

-F

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:25 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Why the hell is the MD-80 aka DC-9, which they renamed to MD-80 with a few cosmetic changes since public perception of the DC-9 being completely unsafe due to many incidents that no one wanted to fly on one... still in the air anyway ?

THAT aircraft has about the most piss poor safety record of any commercial aircraft ever used in the commercial carrier industry, while the Boeing 737 has the best, imop.

Back before I quit flying due to not liking TSA shakedowns and hassle, the 737 was the only plane I would get on, and by preference, flown by Southwest Airlines - say what you will about this incident, they've NEVER killed a passenger, and no other airline I am aware of can say that.

-F



Funny you should say that, all my experience was with 737-200 and 737-300 aircraft. Except for many of the guys I was working with had to also work shifts for the airline they had left to come to work for the one I was with ( a union payout thing ). That gave me an opportunity to help do a engine test run on a DC-10, and the funny part. The DC-9 had the nickname " The Death Screamer " while the larger DC-10 was known as " The Death Cruiser "

Just what you like to hear from the maintenance department.



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:33 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


The airline says 'well, it was only a technicality", which Rap, of course, believes with his whole heart, his whole soul and his whole being. Not that they have a vested interest in shifting blame or anything.

Then one runs across this:

"Then Monday, a new FAA inspection called for some other changes including the replacement of parts American had used that were not approved by the FAA."

Maybe it has something to do with the shielding around the wires alluded to by the WashPost. Now maybe he doesn't know what out of spec replacement parts can do. He should consider this a good learning experience.


***************************************************************
It was the DEMOCRATS that put that stuff in there !

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:34 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The DC-9 had the nickname " The Death Screamer " while the larger DC-10 was known as " The Death Cruiser " Just what you like to hear from the maintenance department.
Thanks for the heads-up.

So, let's see if I got this straight, Rap. You trust the makers of the engines (who are in the business to make money) to flag significant issues, and the airlines (who are in the business to make money) to fully inspect their planes, correct problems expeditiously, and use full-spec parts. Hmmm.

I wish you the best of luck on your next flight.

---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:34 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The fact that they would normally put such inspections off and allow the airline to do it on their own time tells me that it wasn't a high priority issue. But because of the recent trouble there's been w/ another airline, it was decided that something more immediate had to be done, for appearances sake.

Quote:


So, let's see if I got this straight, Rap. You trust the makers of the engines (who are in the business to make money) to flag significant issues, and the airlines (who are in the business to make money) to fully inspect their planes, correct problems expeditiously, and use full-spec parts. Hmmm.

Yeah, because those businesses find it harder to make money when their planes fall out of the sky, ya know. In fact,i'd much rather fly w/ a manufacturer or an airline that CARES about making money, rather than a bunch of folks, who, you know...just like flyin' and stuff, dude.

I like the company slogan.. " If it's not Boeing, I'm not going ! " And in my case, it seems to be exactly right !


It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, April 13, 2008 11:05 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

If it's not Boeing, I'm not going !

Heh heh, imma remember that one.

I have a partial interest in some aircraft industry, never you mind the details, but due to this I get to see a lot of the safety and incident reports, ok ?

imop the Boeing 737 is one of the toughest birds to ever take wing, resulting in a 40% passenger survival rate even in a total airframe writeoff.
http://www.b737.org.uk/accident_reports.htm

Barring an outright nosedive pancake from altitude, chances are you'll suffer nothing more than a few scrapes and bumps.

I cannot comment on the current situation as I simply don't have enough honest information to do so - Southwest claims THEY brought it to the FAA's attention and the FAA threw a hissy, the FAA claims Southwest wasn't following procedure, and everybody is pointing the finger at everyone else instead of addressing the problem.

Inconvenient or not, in such a situation, I'd favor erring on the side of caution, but it should have been done in such a fashion as to allow immediate inspections to clear flights with as few delays as possible - thanks to the TSA shakedown and related hassles, folks are not best pleased with the airlines these days, even though the airlines don't have much control over that aspect, they're still taking a lot of the flak.

Of course, if it's flak you're dealing with, you wanna Boeing B17G, not a 737-300...


-F

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Monday, April 14, 2008 12:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

The fact that they would normally put such inspections off and allow the airline to do it on their own time tells me that it wasn't a high priority issue.
Yeah, safety inspections cost time and money, so of course they're not a high priority issue! At least, not with the airlines.
Quote:

Yeah, because those businesses find it harder to make money when their planes fall out of the sky, ya know.
Rap, it's pretty hard to keep news of planes falling out of the sky from the papers, but do you have any idea how HARD it is to get safety records of non-catastrophic failures? The FAA keeps those records held very, very tightly, even tho they're SUPPOSED to release them. Before I booked my last flight.... in late February... I actually tried to get a sense of which airline was the safest, and all I managed to pull up were items of how the FAA was clouding the waters of airline safety by releasing a purposefully garbled record.

Now of course that complaint has been overtaken by the latest news, which was not caused by "Democrats" but by whistleblowers... people who worked for the FAA... who had serious allegations about lack of safety inspections.

It WOULD help if you would AT LEAST do just a LITTLE research into the facts instead of blowing go-se across several threads.
Quote:

The whistleblowers who exposed maintenance and inspection problems at Southwest Airlines told Congress their jobs were threatened and their reports of noncompliance were ignored for years by their superiors. FAA inspector Douglas Peters choked up Thursday at the hearing and needed a few sips of water to tell lawmakers about how a former manager came into his office, commented on pictures of Peters' family being most important, and then said his job could be jeopardized by his actions.

------------------------
The FAA last month took the rare step of ordering the audit of maintenance records at all domestic carriers following reports of missed safety inspections at Dallas-based Southwest. The airline was hit with a record $10.2 million fine for continuing to fly dozens of Boeing 737s that hadn't been inspected for cracks in their fuselages.





---------------------------------
Let's party like it's 1929.

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Monday, April 14, 2008 10:12 AM

KIRKULES


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Rap, it's pretty hard to keep news of planes falling out of the sky from the papers, but do you have any idea how HARD it is to get safety records of non-catastrophic failures? The FAA keeps those records held very, very tightly, even tho they're SUPPOSED to release them.



The FAA doesn't investigate airplane crashes. You might have better luck finding data if you try the agency that does, the NTSB. http://www.ntsb.gov/Aviation/Aviation.htm

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Monday, April 14, 2008 10:55 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
but do you have any idea how HARD it is to get safety records of non-catastrophic failures?


Really hard. First I had to go to Yahoo!, then I had to type NTSB, then I had to pick the second link...NTSB/Aviation. Then I had to click the top link 'Accident Databases and Synopses'. Then I clicked on 'Monthly Lists'. Then I picked a Month (March, 2008) from a list that included twelve months for every year AND years going back to 1962. Finally I picked a day (March 2) and an incident 'S.Charleston, WV Cessna 182Q N97514 Nonfatal'.

Then all I got was:
Quote:


NTSB Identification: NYC08CA119
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, March 02, 2008 in S.Charleston, WV
Aircraft: Cessna 182Q, registration: N97514
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
After completing a short cross-country flight, the pilot returned to the private airport where he based his Cessna 182Q. The airport was surrounded by terrain obstructions, and as a consequence, an operational restriction existed which requiring him to land to the north. After joining the traffic pattern to land in the required direction, he flew the downwind leg to the 2,000-foot long runway and "checked the windsock." He then turned on the base leg of the traffic pattern, approximately 1.5 miles from the runway threshold. The wing flaps were selected to the 20-degree position, and he turned on to the final leg. Approximately .8 mile from touchdown, the airplane encountered windshear and lost about 17 knots of indicated airspeed. The pilot applied "full power" and was able to re-stabilize the approach. The pilot reduced engine power once again and the "wind sheared to the tail" of the airplane just prior to touchdown, and the indicated airspeed increased approximately 15 knots. The airplane touched down "approximately 600 feet from the runway end," overran the runway, and the nose wheel dug into the "mud." The pilot then released the backpressure on the control wheel, and the air


And a link to the full report.

Took me 30 seconds. Damn govt coverups...
Quote:


It WOULD help if you would AT LEAST do just a LITTLE research into the facts instead of blowing go-se across several threads.


Wow...that kettle sure is black.

H

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Monday, April 14, 2008 6:53 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Just cause it's semi-relevant to the topic, I've done said my piece on the planes, but yanno, commercial airline pilots are, as a general rule, some of the most heroic SOBs there ever were.

Just listen to any CVR tape, even the really awful ones, they go on right to the end of the tape, and never ever quit trying, in fact most full write off CVR tapes end "not working, try this, ok, try that, maybe we can... oh shit. (static)"

But one for the record books, and some right interesting reading, is...

The Tale of the Gimli Glider.
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=744#more-744

Yes, Virginia, you CAN Forward-Angle-Slip a deadsticked 767...

Seriously, the whole story is fodder for a Depends commercial - but it does have a happy ending.


I may not respect a lotta things, but anyone wearing the wings of a commercial airline pilot rates an automatic "sir" from me, period.

-Frem

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Friday, April 18, 2008 10:54 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Um.. Rap ?

Not that it will amount to anything, but Ms. Peters (transportation sec) is officially demanding an explaination in detail over that whole mess, and if you're still a bit annoyed you could possibly parlay that into getting some conciliatory gesture from American Airlines to make up for the screwup.

Just a thought, is all.

-F

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Friday, April 18, 2008 2:54 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just cause it's semi-relevant to the topic, I've done said my piece on the planes, but yanno, commercial airline pilots are, as a general rule, some of the most heroic SOBs there ever were.

Just listen to any CVR tape, even the really awful ones, they go on right to the end of the tape, and never ever quit trying, in fact most full write off CVR tapes end "not working, try this, ok, try that, maybe we can... oh shit. (static)"

But one for the record books, and some right interesting reading, is...

The Tale of the Gimli Glider.
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=744#more-744

Yes, Virginia, you CAN Forward-Angle-Slip a deadsticked 767...

Seriously, the whole story is fodder for a Depends commercial - but it does have a happy ending.


I may not respect a lotta things, but anyone wearing the wings of a commercial airline pilot rates an automatic "sir" from me, period.

-Frem



I actually flew on this A/C a few years after the incident. One of the guys I was on the trip with had worked for Air Canada and knew the plane.

Very cool story



The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Friday, April 18, 2008 3:08 PM

FLETCH2


She was retired 3 months ago and is in the Mohave desert awaiting a breakers crew. Hopefully one of the 3 groups hoping to rescue the old gal will get it's act togther.

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Friday, April 18, 2008 3:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Um.. Rap ?

Not that it will amount to anything, but Ms. Peters (transportation sec) is officially demanding an explaination in detail over that whole mess, and if you're still a bit annoyed you could possibly parlay that into getting some conciliatory gesture from American Airlines to make up for the screwup.

Just a thought, is all.

-F



AA didn't do anything wrong. It was the FAA , reacting the the idiotic bureaucrats in D.C. , headed by the Democrats. Besides, it was a moment that can't be recaptured that I missed. There's nothing they can do.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, April 18, 2008 3:51 PM

GINOBIFFARONI


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
but do you have any idea how HARD it is to get safety records of non-catastrophic failures?


Really hard. First I had to go to Yahoo!, then I had to type NTSB, then I had to pick the second link...NTSB/Aviation. Then I had to click the top link 'Accident Databases and Synopses'. Then I clicked on 'Monthly Lists'. Then I picked a Month (March, 2008) from a list that included twelve months for every year AND years going back to 1962. Finally I picked a day (March 2) and an incident 'S.Charleston, WV Cessna 182Q N97514 Nonfatal'.

Then all I got was:
Quote:


NTSB Identification: NYC08CA119
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, March 02, 2008 in S.Charleston, WV
Aircraft: Cessna 182Q, registration: N97514
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
After completing a short cross-country flight, the pilot returned to the private airport where he based his Cessna 182Q. The airport was surrounded by terrain obstructions, and as a consequence, an operational restriction existed which requiring him to land to the north. After joining the traffic pattern to land in the required direction, he flew the downwind leg to the 2,000-foot long runway and "checked the windsock." He then turned on the base leg of the traffic pattern, approximately 1.5 miles from the runway threshold. The wing flaps were selected to the 20-degree position, and he turned on to the final leg. Approximately .8 mile from touchdown, the airplane encountered windshear and lost about 17 knots of indicated airspeed. The pilot applied "full power" and was able to re-stabilize the approach. The pilot reduced engine power once again and the "wind sheared to the tail" of the airplane just prior to touchdown, and the indicated airspeed increased approximately 15 knots. The airplane touched down "approximately 600 feet from the runway end," overran the runway, and the nose wheel dug into the "mud." The pilot then released the backpressure on the control wheel, and the air


And a link to the full report.

Took me 30 seconds. Damn govt coverups...
Quote:


It WOULD help if you would AT LEAST do just a LITTLE research into the facts instead of blowing go-se across several threads.


Wow...that kettle sure is black.

H



I read through hundreds of these while in school, some were interesting and some not so much.

Anyone interested in crash investigations though should watch this video





The Alliance said they were gonna waltz through Serenity Valley. And we choked 'em with those words. We've done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.

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Friday, April 18, 2008 4:12 PM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
stupid democrats... yeah, they probably should have just shut the f**k up - maybe you could have crashed fairly close to your destination....




LOL if only we didn't have to listen to Auraptor's rants anymore

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Friday, April 18, 2008 4:59 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Hey stupid 'Hero'

IN FACT - there are NO statistics, by carrier, of non-fatal accidents. Oddly enough, JUST AS SIGNYM SAID. And which you purposefully misrepresented. But that's your specialty. Got any go-se of your own you're blowing ?

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/Stats.htm

'statistical reports' only go to 2003 no carriers listed
'most recent monthly statistics' gives an error message
'year-to-date' chart is only total numbers, no carriers or type or anything, really and of course, no carriers listed
'aircraft accidents in Alaska' gives an error message
'1983-1999 Air Carrier Accident Data Used in Annual Review' self explanantory
'2001 GA Accident Aircraft Data Used in Annual Review' self explanantory
'2000 GA Accident Aircraft Data Used in Annual Review' self explanantory
'1999 GA Accident Aircraft Data Used in Annual Review' self explanantory
'1998 GA Accident Aircraft Data Used in Annual Review' self explanantory

'Table 1 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 2007 Preliminary Statistics, U.S. Aviation (.csv version)' no carriers listed
'Table 2 Accidents and Accident Rates by NTSB Classification, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121 (.csv version)' no carriers listed
'Table 3 Passenger Injuries and Injury Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121 (.csv version)' no carriers listed
'Table 4 Number and Rate of Destroyed Aircraft, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121 (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 5 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121, Scheduled and Nonscheduled Service (Airlines) (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 6 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121, Scheduled Service (Airlines) (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 7 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 121, Nonscheduled Service (Airlines) (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 8 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 135, Scheduled Service ( .csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 9 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, 14 CFR 135, Nonscheduled Service (On-demand Air Taxis) (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 10 Accidents, Fatalities, and Rates, 1988 - 2007, U.S. General Aviation (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 11 Fatal Accidents, 2007 Preliminary Data for All Operations Under 14 CFR 121 and for Scheduled Operations Under 14 CFR 135 (.csv version)' no carriers listed

'Table 12 Air Carrier Occurrences Involving Illegal Acts (Sabotage, Suicide, or Terrorism), 1988 - 2007 (.csv version)' no carriers listed
Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
but do you have any idea how HARD it is to get safety records of non-catastrophic failures?


Really hard. First I had to go to Yahoo!, then I had to type NTSB, then I had to pick the second link...NTSB/Aviation. Then I had to click the top link 'Accident Databases and Synopses'. Then I clicked on 'Monthly Lists'. Then I picked a Month (March, 2008) from a list that included twelve months for every year AND years going back to 1962. Finally I picked a day (March 2) and an incident 'S.Charleston, WV Cessna 182Q N97514 Nonfatal'.

Then all I got was:
Quote:


NTSB Identification: NYC08CA119
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, March 02, 2008 in S.Charleston, WV
Aircraft: Cessna 182Q, registration: N97514
Injuries: 2 Uninjured.
After completing a short cross-country flight, the pilot returned to the private airport where he based his Cessna 182Q. The airport was surrounded by terrain obstructions, and as a consequence, an operational restriction existed which requiring him to land to the north. After joining the traffic pattern to land in the required direction, he flew the downwind leg to the 2,000-foot long runway and "checked the windsock." He then turned on the base leg of the traffic pattern, approximately 1.5 miles from the runway threshold. The wing flaps were selected to the 20-degree position, and he turned on to the final leg. Approximately .8 mile from touchdown, the airplane encountered windshear and lost about 17 knots of indicated airspeed. The pilot applied "full power" and was able to re-stabilize the approach. The pilot reduced engine power once again and the "wind sheared to the tail" of the airplane just prior to touchdown, and the indicated airspeed increased approximately 15 knots. The airplane touched down "approximately 600 feet from the runway end," overran the runway, and the nose wheel dug into the "mud." The pilot then released the backpressure on the control wheel, and the air


And a link to the full report.

Took me 30 seconds. Damn govt coverups...
Quote:


It WOULD help if you would AT LEAST do just a LITTLE research into the facts instead of blowing go-se across several threads.


Wow...that kettle sure is black.

H



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"Global warming - it's not just a fact, it's a choice."

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Saturday, April 19, 2008 5:37 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Quote:

Originally posted by deadlockvictim:
stupid democrats... yeah, they probably should have just shut the f**k up - maybe you could have crashed fairly close to your destination....




LOL if only we didn't have to listen to Auraptor's rants anymore



Love those Libs. Don't agree w/ them? They wish you to die in a plane crash.

What clueless morons.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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