REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

I don't support Bush because...

POSTED BY: DAYVE
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 18:58
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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 7:16 AM

DAYVE


ok, so you knew it was going to happen.... so for those of you who haven't drunk the kool-aid, fire away



I have never supported this man - as governor of my home state or as president of the lot of em. I could make a list - but lists are boring - suffice it to say, I dislike the policies of this administration and I most definitely do not condone the murder of innocent civilians.



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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 7:51 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


I DONT SUPPORT BUSH BECAUSE:

I have morals, a conscience and am reasonably inteligent.

I also know the difference between kneeling down and bending over.

I recognise that there are other countries in the world apart from the good old U.S. of A. and that people actualy live in them.

I know that If there is a God, he would'nt want me to bomb people back into the stoneage just to prove a point.

I know that there is no such thing as a "Terrrssst". Nor is "F" the capital of France.

But mostly I dont support Bush because he is going to hoodwink you all into letting him have enough emergency powers to ignore the next election and stay in office, and by the time you've all realised whats going on it will be too late.

And serves you bloody well right.

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 7:58 AM

ANTIMASON


which is why we all need to own up and realize that both parties are controlled by traitors, and that our establishment government, including the media, is controlled by international corporate/banking cartels who seek a global fascist oligarchy.

i found this article.. id like for you partisan lemmings out there to absorb this for a minute

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/October2006/041006Welcome.htm

Quote:

"Welcome to Fascist America!

Gene Callahan | October 4 2006

My fellow Americans, it’s official now: We live in a fascist nation.

Now, the term "fascist" has been thrown around over the last fifty years in a loose way that has drained it of much of its meaning. If someone wanted to cut 5% off of a leftist professor's favourite welfare programme, the professor would call his opponent a "fascist." I’m not using the word like that. I mean honest-to-goodness, old-fashioned, 1930s style fascism, featuring such old favourites as:

Secret prisons – they’re back!
Torture – we’re doing it.
Spying on all citizens.
Arrests and indefinite imprisonment without trial.
Rampant militarism.
Secret detention.
Enforced disappearance.
Denial and restriction of habeas corpus.
Prolonged incommunicado detention.
Unfair trial procedures.
(This list was compiled partially based on the work of Amnesty International, available here.)

An absolutely mind-numbing response to complaints that our traditional legal system is being torn apart is the question, "So, you want to protect the rights of terrorists?"

Um, no, I want to protect the rights of non-terrorists who might be falsely accused of terrorism! That was sort of, you know, the whole idea of our legal system. I’m sure there was some neo-con around in the 1700s saying to Jefferson or Madison, "So, you want to protect the rights of murderers and robbers?" but luckily they ignored him.

We’ve now gotten to the point where Nazi Germany was, say, in 1934. Remember, at that time, if you had told a typical German what his government would do over the next ten years, he would have looked at you as a madman. After all, his land had been civilized for over a thousand years. His was the nation of Albertus Magnus, Gutenberg, Goethe, Schiller, Beethoven, Bach, Kant, Hegel, Schelling, Fichte, Heisenberg, Reimann, Mann, Lessing, Herder, Handel, Dürer, Leibniz, Gauss, Helmholtz – he could have gone on, but you get the point. His nation could not possibly descend into barbarism! If you tried to tell him he was living in a police state, he would have pointed out that his government had used its vast new powers very judiciously, and only against a few trouble-makers. So far.

It is interesting, in gauging the direction we are heading, to look at the proclamations of "respectable" opinion writers who support this administration. For instance, we have people at a "libertarian" think tank proclaiming that Moslems are not entitled to full civil rights in the US. (Perhaps we need to make them wear something special on their clothing like, say, a yellow star, so we know just who they are, hey?) But "conservatives" provide even more stunning examples of purely fascist reasoning. For example, conservative demagogue Ann Coulter has called for the editor of The NY Times to face the firing squad for his part in publicizing this administration's abuses of power. Let’s look at a recent column by Douglas MacKinnon at TownHall.com.

MacKinnon considers all of those involved in revealing the sordid collection of secret programmes that have been launched by the Bush administration as "traitors" who have publicized these schemes "purely because they don’t like the policies of the new president." Well, he’s right in that "they don’t like the policies" that they consider unconstitutional violations of our rights. Far from "aiding the enemy," these revelations aided us, the American people, by letting us know what our government has in store for us.

Consider what the point of classifying these programmes was in the first place, and who they were being kept secret from. The jihadists no doubt already knew about the secret prisons – their friends are in them! They surely knew that the war in Iraq has been helping their recruiting – it’s their recruiting! ("Praise be to Allah, Abdul, I read in The NY Times that it is the Iraq War that is sending us these thousands of new recruits – who knew?") They no doubt suspect they may be wiretapped – what they didn’t know was that all the rest of us are, as well. No, not one of these leaks helps terrorists, nor was one of them classified to stop terrorists from finding them out. We were the ones who weren’t supposed to find out about them.

MacKinnon continues: "And if even one American lost his or her life because of a leak, then I would want that person to be executed for treason."

So anyone who reveals our fascist government policies is a traitor who can be executed! This is obviously an attempt to intimidate the opposition so that our police state can be expanded without the annoying work stoppages caused by public outcry when the latest bit of construction is revealed. And just how does MacKinnon propose to show that some American lost his life because a journalist revealed that the US government tortures people across the globe, rather than, say, because the policies he supports have inspired a million new jihadists? Secret trial, perhaps? Or why even bother with trials for filthy traitors?

Herr Goebbels – oops, I mean MacKinnon – writes, "Until we severely punish those who leak classified information, then the traitors among us will not only continue to flourish, but will grow more brazen with the secrets they reveal."

Yes, what we ought to be able to do, you know, is simply seize anyone who even mentions our government’s "secret" prisons, and, without a trial, throw them in a secret prison! This is the logical conclusion of this fascist’s article, after all, since those who talk about the American Gulag are pretty much terrorists themselves.

Folks, this is coming real soon, and, once it does, domestic opposition is pretty much over. One journalist – that will be about all it takes – will be seized as a "terrorist" and thrown in the Gulag. The government may release him, but then another will simply disappear in the night in Iraq or Afghanistan, and rumors will circulate that he is being kept in a cage somewhere and waterboarded. No journalist lacking heroic courage will any longer be willing to seriously protest government policy.

America is full of decent people, who could never believe their own government could become fascist. So were Germany and Italy in the 1920s. But they became fascist anyway. They passed laws suspending civil liberties, but the government promised the frightened populace that those laws would only be used against targets like "Communist terrorists." And, a little bit at a time, the target kept getting bigger and bigger, slowly enough that the people who weren’t paying close attention never detected it.

And, next thing you know, there were millions of people dead! So, it turns out, it would have been worth paying attention after all."


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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 9:44 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


Quote:

Originally posted by oldenglanddry:
I DONT SUPPORT BUSH BECAUSE:

I have morals, a conscience and am reasonably inteligent.

I also know the difference between kneeling down and bending over.

I recognise that there are other countries in the world apart from the good old U.S. of A. and that people actualy live in them.

I know that If there is a God, he would'nt want me to bomb people back into the stoneage just to prove a point.

I know that there is no such thing as a "Terrrssst". Nor is "F" the capital of France.

But mostly I dont support Bush because he is going to hoodwink you all into letting him have enough emergency powers to ignore the next election and stay in office, and by the time you've all realised whats going on it will be too late.

And serves you bloody well right.

Since I don't have the time to count the ways, I'll go along with your excellent short list. Except I think Bush is now damaged goods. They'll throw him under the bus in favor of someone else.

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 10:03 AM

ANTIMASON


yah...unfortunately the next guy will be no better, since the same interests who put Bush in office will then support the next shill

we (the unwashed masses) just cant compete with trillion dollar banking institutions like the FED, who are hell bent on the fullfillment of this satanic elitist NWO agenda

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 2:49 PM

MISBEHAVEN


10. Because I don't want to support someone who's likely going to rubberstamp a war on Iran and/or North Korea in order to deflect attention away from his previous policy failures in Afghanistan and Iraq.

9. Because I want to end government directed and sponsored torture, not redefine it.

8. Because I think Church and State should be separated.


7. Because I think the "Patriot Act" and the pervasive spying it allows on essentially the entire population should be rejected, not refined.

6. Because I'm tired of the Bush administration handing out no-bid contracts worth billions in tax-payer dollars to their largest campaign contributors as well as providing hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies to oil companies.

5. Because I'm tired of watching the Bush administration use fear to generate support for their endless War on Terror and to help them errode our civil liberties

4. Because I don't support anyone who opposes a woman's right to govern her own body.

3. Because I don't support anyone who attempts to marginalize a segment of the American citizenry by adding a constitutional amendment that takes away a citizen's right rather than granting them one.

2. Because Bush refuses to use anything even resembling diplomacy.

1. Because I enjoy my constitutionally granted freedoms, and I would like to continue to do so.





Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 2:59 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


I don't support Bush because I'd be in the same club with people I detest.

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 3:03 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


I don't support Bush because...

He's entirely unconvincing and frighteningly [stupid? evil?], both in his political policies, and his public speaking.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 3:10 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
I don't support Bush because...

He's entirely unconvincing and frighteningly [stupid? evil?], both in his political policies, and his public speaking.



Oh yeah. I forgot all about him being an inarticulate moron or at least being simply inarticulate.

Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
-Hunter S. Thompson

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 3:19 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:
I don't support Bush because...

He's entirely unconvincing and frighteningly [stupid? evil?], both in his political policies, and his public speaking.



Oh yeah. I forgot all about him being an inarticulate moron or at least being simply inarticulate.

Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
-Hunter S. Thompson



::gasps::

How do you forget something that bad? I haven't even been able to suffer through more than five minutes of his leaning-on-the-podium, head-bobbing, hand-waving, "I'm just a regular guy with a lot of power," and all his other hoo-haw.

And, that's another thing that irks me - the "I'm just a regular guy {with a huge ranch and piles of cash)." We don't need a regular guy president. We don't want a regular guy president. We want somebody who knows what they're doing, and will do things, if not well, fairly and honestly - at least, with as much honesty as most politicians can muster.

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 3:51 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by yinyang:

We don't need a regular guy president. We don't want a regular guy president. We want somebody who knows what they're doing, and will do things, if not well, fairly and honestly - at least, with as much honesty as most politicians can muster.




Oh, come on now. This is America: "... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable" (Hunter S. Thompson). Do we really want honesty and fairness in our leaders? Are those really American values?




Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
-HST

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 3:54 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:
Do we really want honesty and fairness in our leaders? Are those really American values?



::smacks forehead::

Silly me...

---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 4:34 PM

DREAMTROVE


I don't support Bush because...

I'm sane and have a brain, and he is stupid and evil

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 4:50 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:

8. Because I think Church and State should be separated.



i agree.. which is why we need to expose Bushs real agenda for the occult perversion that it is; since while it is decieving christiains, it is not inspired by Christ. i think ive made a good case for myself that the Federal Reserve is the real shadow government, and the Fed openly prints Satanic symbolism on its currency.

actually the subject of central banks deserves its own thread, since it is perhaps single handedly the worst crime purpetrated upon the US in history... just look up NWO and the FED or CFR and you will see for yourselves; here are some quotes from one particular article

Quote:

Thomas Jefferson wrote: "The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution...if the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Though unconstitutional, as only "The Congress shall have Power...To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof..." (Article I, Section 8, U.S. Constitution) the Federal Reserve Act was passed in December 1913; ostensibly to stabilize the economy and prevent further panics, but as Lindberg warned Congress: "This act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth...the invisible government by the money power, proven to exist by the Money Trust investigation, will be legalized." The Great Depression and numerous recessions later, it is obvious the Federal Reserve produces inflation and federal debt whenever it desires, but not stability.

Congressman Louis McFadden, House Committee on Banking and Currency Chairman (1920-31), stated: "When the Federal Reserve Act was passed, the people of these United States did not perceive that a world banking system was being set up here. A super-state controlled by international bankers and industrialists...acting together to enslave the world...Every effort has been made by the Fed to conceal its powers but the truth is--the Fed has usurped the government."



http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Council_Foreign_Relations.htm

p.s.(the word 'conspiracy' has been conditioned into your minds to mean fantasy, but try to remember how frequently the establishment lies to you, and picture Bush saying "you're either with us; or your with the terrorists!" )

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 5:55 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by antimason:
. . . picture Bush saying "you're either with us; or your with the terrorists!" )



Oh no! I know I'm not with Bush, so does this mean I'm with those dern terrrsst?



A dog can't tell a Nazi from a Republican from a Commie from a Democrat and, many times, neither can I.
-Charles Bukowski

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 6:45 PM

SASSALICIOUS


I don't like George W. Bush for all the above reasons.

This ILLEGAL war in Iraq is deliciously reminiscent of the Vietnam conflict (WAR!)--which we lost. Maybe they'll institute the draft and then people will see it for what it is and start to protest.

I don't like George W. Bush for his unsubstantiated view of sex education. Abstinence DOES NOT work. It NEVER will. Giving girls the HPV vaccine won't make them promiscous, it will protect them from cancer. And your boys will also be protected from other forms of HPV caused cancer. Cheap and easy access to birth control will PREVENT abortions along with proper instruction on how to use said birth control.

And I'm also pissed off about the additional security measures at airports that don't do ANYTHING at all. They are mostly useless. I don't feel any safer or in any more danger than I did 5 years ago.

Does he even speak another language?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 7:16 PM

PIRATEJENNY


I hate Bush and his evil administration, do I really have to explain why..I think its pretty obvious!!

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Wednesday, October 4, 2006 11:04 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


I agree with a lot f stuff people are worried about (mostly the danger of dictatorship) but polite request:

WE did not have a military failure in Iraq, and Definitely not in Afghanistan. I hope that doesn't dissapoint anyone, because if that statement makes you want to fight or argue, you're kind of messed up. I've been to Iraq, and I have friends who went to Afghanistan. Militarily, we did what was ordered, and in a lot of ways, right. There are more children gettting education and people getting better medical care than ever before in their history there, and yes, people- some of them actaully like us. I have fought alongside Iraqis who made a pilgrimmage down to Baghdad to ask the U.S. for help because of the lawlessness and violence (like torture, Rape, etc..) going on in their cities.

Regardless of what a lot of armchair historians are saying about Iraq/Afghanistan, don't be lied to or misled- please.

Now, about EVERYTHING ELSE you all mentioned, well, carry on....

(Just the real experience of someone who was a Fighter/Policeman/Problem Solver/Negotiator/Voice of the Military in Iraq...)

It's nice to be in a country where we can even HAVE a discussion like this again...(now I'm sure some people worry about how long that will be...)...



"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:35 AM

DAYVE


Bush’s idea of war is reduced to “Just a Comma”….. this man is totally oblivious to the suffering his war has caused untold thousands of humans. How can any sane person support his actions?

'Just a Comma' Becomes Part of Iraq Debate
Opponents See Bush's Words on War as Insensitive or as Code for Religious Right
By Peter Baker, Washington Post Staff Writer Thursday, October 5, 2006; Page A19

The comma remark, though, offers an especially intriguing case study in how a few words can trigger many interpretations. Bush used it in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer aired on Sept. 24 in talking about Iraq. He noted the bloodshed shown on television but hailed the resiliency of the Iraqi people and cited the election last December in which 12 million came to the polls despite the violence.

"Admittedly, it seems like a decade ago," Bush went on. "I like to tell people when the final history is written on Iraq, it will look like just a comma because there is -- my point is, there's a strong will for democracy." The president used a similar line at a campaign event last week in Alabama and again on Tuesday in Stockton, Calif.


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Thursday, October 5, 2006 4:31 AM

GLUEMAN


I don't support Bush because...

Lou Dobbs on Glenn Beck may have said it best. None of which Bush seems to care about.

"Traditional American values -- independence, equality, self-reliance, the common good, the national interest -- are the values that we all should be working toward, whatever label you want to aside in partisanship, fine. But those are the values we`ve got to turn to, and we`ve got to become an aspirational society again."

Beck: "I can`t even begin to explain what they`re doing(Bush)."

DOBBS: "By the way, they(Bush)can`t either."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 5:37 AM

RIGHTEOUS9



USMCHellraiser - I don't question the efforts of the soldiers on the ground at all,

but is seems to me the lives of Iraqis must have taken a turn for the worse if over 60 percent of them now believe it is okay to attack American soldiers.

I don't believe that's a failing of the military but of our administration. I have a hard time accepting 'better medical care' as something that offsets the much higher level of deaths in the country

Torture and rape going on in their cities before or after the war started? Again, I'm sure those of you there were doing everything you could, but your post doesn't convince me that things are better now than they were. They sound a lot worse.

.....

That comma comment was pretty horrible. Hopefully Bush will one day be remembered as an imapropriate colon.

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:24 AM

ANTIMASON


the motives for us to go into Iraq are skeptical at best. lets face the facts, Iraq had no alqaeda connection, no WMDs and no WMD program.. most of the 9/11 hijackers were saudi arabian. IMO we cant even prove that alqaeda was solely behind 9/11, not only because of the sheer magnititude of lies and secrecy on behalf of this administration and the pentagon, but because the FBI itself admits that they have "no hard evidence" linking OSB to 9/11; i personally think that the central banks are funding everything, the terrorists and the war on terror


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Thursday, October 5, 2006 12:32 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


Quote:

Originally posted by Righteous9:

USMCHellraiser - I don't question the efforts of the soldiers on the ground at all,

but is seems to me the lives of Iraqis must have taken a turn for the worse if over 60 percent of them now believe it is okay to attack American soldiers.

I don't believe that's a failing of the military but of our administration. I have a hard time accepting 'better medical care' as something that offsets the much higher level of deaths in the country

Torture and rape going on in their cities before or after the war started? Again, I'm sure those of you there were doing everything you could, but your post doesn't convince me that things are better now than they were. They sound a lot worse.

.....

That comma comment was pretty horrible. Hopefully Bush will one day be remembered as an imapropriate colon.




Well, without arguing, most if not all of the people who have never been there and never spoke to an Iraqi think we're stupid for being there, yet I know literally thousands I'm not kidding thousands of people that have been there and support what we do. So it comes down to a question of believeing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult and didn't need to be validated or defined by an association with the military.

I wasn't just a footsoldier infantryman by the way and if it matters, I was our company translator. If you speak any kind of Arabic at all (most of our military doesn't and are not completely encouraged to learn it, since they would be able to express themselves however they saw fit-like after a firefight, when emotions are high) you are capable of a better level of rapport with the people there. They complain a lot to you about things that you cannot control, but that's understandable. I think we would do the same. I'm sure it happened during Katrina, even though I wasn't even in the country when that happened, and didn't get the scope of it until we returned.

The murder/rape issue in their country is a weird one- would you rather live in a slum in Detroit as a white male or Live in Police-State Germany in 1939 even if you weren't Jewish?

Saddam had a good grip on rampant murder and crime probably, so it might have seemed more peaceful, but if we just vaporized every city we encountered any sort of resistance in instead of risking our Soldier/Marine/Sailor's lives by doing it house-to-house we would have the same kind of control or more to the point, Fear-induced Iron Grip.

All I know is that I was thanked by Iraqis in their own language for being there, and I eavesdropped a lot, since most people there would never have guessed I could piece out what they were saying.

A LOT of Iraqi police(or ICDC, or IA, or ISF, et al.) working with the U.S. get killed every day because they are working with us to help Iraq. Why do you think more keep lining up to become police the next day? Please don't demean it by trying to make it a self-serving thing, or based out of ignorance.

An average everyday Iraqi could re-wire my entire house's electrical system by the way, and do it faster than you'd think. They also have a great sense of community and they look after each other really well. They're just living in a part of the world that bears no resemblance to anything a person who grew up here in the states and worse if they have never lived anywhere else could imagine.

By the way, if I'm not wanted here, my bad. I just thought that you all might value info from someone who was actually over there.

And, by the way- even though I am injured from something that happened over there, and I'll never be a terro on the Football field again, I would continue to go over there until I thought there was no one over ther who wanted me. WI wish I could tell you more about some of the people that we fought over there, but no one's lying when they say that foreign militants are attacking our people and Iraqis there.
Our presence is like the scent on a bug trap, in my opinion, and it works. The price is high, and more than I wish we had to pay (I wish I could walk right now, but at least I came home in one big piece), but now that I have seen the faces of the people over there, and ate with them, shared stories, talked about our families, fought alongside them, I'm not giving up. And if the job is too hard or undesirable for some people, well, chances are they aren't the ones that are ever going to be there anyway, they're the ones we fight to protect. Build a better home here, figure out why our education system sucks, actors get paid millions, and teachers get treated like "the help". If I can ever get mobile again, I'll go back for you. If nothing else, just to stand next to young men who care about something more than themselves gives me hope about our country's tomorrow, and the place where my future children will be raised.

Thanks for the time,

Ryan

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 1:03 PM

SUCCATASH


Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
So it comes down to a question of believing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult...



Thanks for your post, but sorry, it's more complicated than that.

You believe what you want. It doesn't change the fact that invading Iraq was a huge mistake. All the reasons for invading turned out to be based on lies, or GIANT errors. It's not okay to keep making up new reasons to be there. And there's thousands of soldiers who went to Iraq and disagree with you.


Mission Rejected: U.S. Soldiers Who Say No to Iraq
http://www.amazon.com/Mission-Rejected-U-S-Soldiers-Iraq/dp/1933392045




"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:08 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ryan- your post has me perplexed. Poll after poll in Iraq tells the story that the vast majority of Iraqis- somewhere between 70-85% - want us gone pronto. There are soldiers who tell other stories... that kids smile to your face, and throw stones (or worse- shoot) when your back is turned.

So how do we account for the discrepancy between the polls/ news reports, and your account? Do Iraqis like to be severely pessimistic to pollsters and more optimistic with American soldiers? Did you get a chance to talk in-depth with "the guy on the street" or just with Iraqi Army/ Police recruits? Were you always in uniform? How much of the violence do you think is due to foreigners? Where were you stationed? Do you think it's typical or Iraq as a whole? Is there a difference between what men and women say?

There must be reasons why we hear such wildly divergent stories and ways to figure out why they're so different. If you could give us some insight about why your experience is so vastly different from other reports I'd be very happy to hear.

---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 3:23 PM

MISBEHAVEN


Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
I agree with a lot f stuff people are worried about (mostly the danger of dictatorship) but polite request:

WE did not have a military failure in Iraq, and Definitely not in Afghanistan.



Your quite right. What I should have said was a policy failure. Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa. I'll edit the post, because the last thing I want to do is give the impression I don't support the military. I do. I just don't support this administration.

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
-Bertrand Russell

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 4:37 PM

STDOUBT


He's a war criminal

He's a traitor

He broke his oath of office
(by FAILING to uphold the US constitution)

That enough?

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 5:56 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


Quote:

Originally posted by Succatash:
Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
So it comes down to a question of believing people who are paid to report crisis and horror (the media), or a rational, literate, injured man who joined as an adult...



Thanks for your post, but sorry, it's more complicated than that.

It doesn't change the fact that invading Iraq was a huge mistake.*

All the reasons for invading turned out to be based on lies, or GIANT errors.**

It's not okay to keep making up new reasons to be there. And there's thousands of soldiers who went to Iraq and disagree with you.***

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."



* If you don't mind me asking- why? What was the "mistake"?

** Slavery was ended for reasons other than the freedom of Africans. Does that mean it was wrong?

*** I haven't read that book. I only live with and work with 2,500 Marines and Sailors (just in my Battalion, let alone Division).


It's easy to think that we shouldn't be there- when the people back home are telling you that they don't support it. When your friends and strangers are saying you were wrong to be a part of something because they don't agree with it, it's not unheard of for people to succumb to the impression that they were wrong.

To be honest, I don't know myself if I would have the internal strength to keep my earned opinion if my family and friends were all against it without knowing. Fortunately, my firends and family asked me what the experience was, they didn't attack me or my beliefs based off of what they 'heard someone say', etc.

Lastly, I'd be hard pressed to believe that the author interviewed "Thousands" of anybody. Also, do you guys actually think that reporters or journalist go looking for Iraqis or servicemen that support the situation there? Seriously?

And, in the name of democracy, if you took a poll of serviceman or previous serviecman who don't approve of the war, start with people who didn't run from the idea of a deployment to come up with the idea.

I'm not going to lie to any of you- i And, there are still more servicemen who would say they don't want to go, but they believe in it.

Look- it's hard to look the love of your life in the eye and tell her that leaving her alone for almost a year is "right". I know someone personally who went twice and went UA (ie- AWOL)instead of going three times. Was it because he didn't agree with policy? Hell no, it was because he met "The One". I understand wholeheartedly why he did it, but he was still wrong. And I hope that there never comes a day where we are called to go to war with a real threat, because in a culture that allows the men and women who are charged with defending our families to become "Conscientious Objectors" because they are afraid to die, and watch someone else's young son go to take their place, and applaud them for their "willingness to stand up for what's right", we are going to get beaten, and more lives will be lost, because we as a country have become cowards.

God Bless America, because "she" needs it,

Ryan

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 6:03 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


Quote:

Originally posted by misbehaven:

The only thing that will redeem mankind is cooperation.
-Bertrand Russell



Well, I hope that mankind does find a way to redeem itself. But funny thing, that is one of the things I found smart about "Firefly". I don't see it happening in 500 years, or more.

Good quote though, and something to think about...

"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Thursday, October 5, 2006 10:54 PM

RIGHTEOUS9


USMChellraiser -

I don't think I, or anybody who questions your conclusions would rather you not be posting to the board. Most of us are genuinely curious. I'm not in Iraq and I don't have any first hand information on what's going on there.

I appreciate your compassion for these human beings and I believe you and most of our armed services believe they are helping the Iraqi people.

Still, the evidence doesn't show it. Your anecdotal experiences are not lost on me, but as Sygm said, they are outside the range of the information we are getting. Even while I include your experience, it is an outlier.

And Yes, I seriously believe the media is looking hard for good stories on Iraq. big companies pay media advertising. Big companies that have stake in the war even own the media...case-in-point, GE.
News is not a cash crop. It's what it sells that bbrings in the dough.

As to your question, "what was the mistake?" - the "mistake" was Bush's incorrect declaration that we must go into Iraq because it had weapons of Mass destruction. Only when they couldn't find any did they try to make the whole invasion about spreading democracy.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 9:24 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

To be honest, I don't know myself if I would have the internal strength to keep my earned opinion if my family and friends were all against it without knowing. Fortunately, my firends and family asked me what the experience was, they didn't attack me or my beliefs based off of what they 'heard someone say', etc.
I think we'd ALL like to hear about your experience but maybe my questions got lost in the shuffle. I can't believe "they're" all wrong but OTOH I'm not about to discount your experience either. It's the "seven blind men and an elephant" problem. Being a scientist, I think the answer is somewhere in the details.


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 2:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I thought this was interesting. It begins...

All: I haven't written very much from Iraq. There's really not much to write about. More exactly, there's not much I can write about because practically everything I do, read or hear is classified military information or is depressing to the point that I'd rather just forget about it, never mind write about it. The gaps in between all of that are filled with the pure tedium of daily life in an armed camp. So it's a bit of a struggle to think of anything to put into a letter that's worth reading. Worse, this place just consumes you. I work 18-20-hour days, every day. The quest to draw a clear picture of what the insurgents are up to never ends. Problems and frictions crop up faster than solutions. Every challenge demands a response. It's like this every day. Before I know it, I can't see straight, because it's 0400 and I've been at work for 20 hours straight, somehow missing dinner again in the process. And once again I haven't written to anyone. It starts all over again four hours later. It's not really like Ground Hog Day, it's more like a level from Dante's Inferno...

http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1543658,00.html

Curiously, the one person this soldier criticized by name was Bill O'Reilly. I wonder if it's because of political reasons or because O'Reilly is such a blow hole.


---------------------------------
Reality sucks. Especially when it contradicts our cherished ideas.

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Friday, October 6, 2006 2:41 PM

FUTUREMRSFILLION


I don't support Bush because.....I am breathing.




----
Bestower of Titles, Designer of Tshirts, Maker of Mottos, Keeper of the Pyre

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"



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Friday, October 6, 2006 3:05 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.


Here's something I found interesting from the article SignyM posted:

Quote:

Coolest Insurgent Act — Stealing almost $7 million from the main bank in Ramadi in broad daylight, then, upon exiting, waving to the Marines in the combat outpost right next to the bank, who had no clue of what was going on. The Marines waved back. Too cool.


---
"What the world needs now is love, sweet love - it's the only thing that there's just too little of. What the world needs now is love, sweet love. No, not just for some, but for everyone."

Trouble-Maker in the House!

http://richlabonte.net/tvvote

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 8:53 PM

USMCHELLRAISER


My favorite quote:

"Our briefs and commentary seem to have no effect on their preconceived notions of what's going on in Iraq. Their trips allow them to say that they've been to Fallujah, which gives them an unfortunate degree of credibility in perpetuating their fantasies about the insurgency here. Biggest Outrage — Practically anything said by talking heads on TV about the war in Iraq, not that I get to watch much TV. Their thoughts are consistently both grossly simplistic and politically slanted."




"...let's not ruin an otherwise pleasant day with unnecessary bloodshed..."

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Sunday, March 23, 2008 9:31 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Because he is wholly incompetent in every respect that ever mattered worth a damn to me.

I do not care if he is immoral, or evil, or hell, downright psychotic for that matter..

I care whether or not he can DO THE JOB.

And he can't, he has failed utterly at every single bit of it, chapter and verse.

It's not simpler than that.

=========

Funny thing though, Antimason - we disagree on so very much, at so many levels, and yet we, and many others who disagree quite strongly with our views, individually or the both of us, all see the same creeping fascism looming up behind us with an axe, don't we ?

It's silly to worry about all our little differences between folk when there seems to be a mutually acknowledged greater threat to concern ourselves about.

And I suspect no few of us, any of us, all of us, are doing our little parts, too.

The great grand plans of the established are worn by many things, broken on the rocks of adversery and arrogance, pounded on the surf of active resistance, but even so, worn away bit by bit, by the mere grains of sand that are the petty and honest defiances of common, decent folk.

See, plans like this happen to require us, the people - to play ball in order for it to actually occur, and we don't have to do so.

Remind folk of that.

-Frem

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Monday, March 24, 2008 7:02 AM

ALLIETHORN7


I don't support Bush, simply because he is a bumbling idiot.
The man is good at two things- Being good company and playing the Eternal Cowboy. Now, while this doesn't make him a bad man, what he has done in is Presidency has. And the fact that he has allowed himself to be led by his consultants is the final nail.
The man isn't evil- He's just bloody stupid. And, as such, he fails miserably at his selected job field.

-Danny

The Ocean Breathes Salty,
Won'tyou carry it in,
In your head,
In your mouth,
In your soul?
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both grow old,
Well I don't know, I don't know, Don't think so

The Band of the week is... Modest Mouse

Gott weiß ich will kein Engel sein.
http://www.myspace.com/otherrandomdude

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Monday, March 24, 2008 8:06 AM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

FremDFirma-

Funny thing though, Antimason - we disagree on so very much, at so many levels, and yet we, and many others who disagree quite strongly with our views, individually or the both of us, all see the same creeping fascism looming up behind us with an axe, don't we ?

It's silly to worry about all our little differences between folk when there seems to be a mutually acknowledged greater threat to concern ourselves about.

And I suspect no few of us, any of us, all of us, are doing our little parts, too.

The great grand plans of the established are worn by many things, broken on the rocks of adversery and arrogance, pounded on the surf of active resistance, but even so, worn away bit by bit, by the mere grains of sand that are the petty and honest defiances of common, decent folk.

See, plans like this happen to require us, the people - to play ball in order for it to actually occur, and we don't have to do so.

Remind folk of that.



dang, someone went diggin' through the archives didnt they?.. but i love the consistency of it all. i completely agree Frem, we all share a mutual interest in the truth, and freedom, however they're attained. i think what distinguishes our movement(people like yourself and others) is that we see the authorities as the number one threat, before anything external(to our homeland). this will be the big division in the future im guessing, so i appreciate all allies of like mind

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Monday, March 24, 2008 9:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I voted for him. Twice. Given the same situation, w/ the same choices, I'd vote for him again. Hands down.


Can a thread get more pointless ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, March 24, 2008 10:49 AM

KIRKULES


"I don't support Bush because" he's not running for elected office this time around. I support John McCain because he is running. McCain is running his campaign embracing the decision to fight the war in Iraq, and it's working out pretty good for him so far. You Bush bashers need to get used to the fact that your not going to have Bush to kick around much longer. If you want to help your side of the debate you might want to direct your efforts towards McCain where they might make a difference. I wish you luck if your pinning your hopes on making this election a referendum on Bush. It might have worked with another candidate, but McCain has been a thorn in Bush's side ever since the 2000 race. Your only hope of defeating McCain is to hope the war starts to go badly before the election, and that just isn't going to happen. McCain like Bush realises that the huge sacrifices our military is making today will pay off down the road when the middle east becomes a peaceful part of the civilized world. That's the essence of what McCain meant by us being in Iraq "100 years". We've been in Germany for 60 year and it's been a good thing for the US and Germany. There's no reason the same thing can't happen in the middle east. Unless of course Obama or Clinton surrender before the job is done.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 10:55 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by USMCHellraiser:
By the way, if I'm not wanted here, my bad. I just thought that you all might value info from someone who was actually over there.

Welcome Ryan. Your voice and perspective are appreciated. And thank you for serving.

I still think the war in Iraq was a mistake at best, and immoral at worst. Here's the thing. There are terrible, terrible things happening in many, many parts of the world. No matter how many local people would appreciate our soldiers over there, is it the responsibility of hard-working Americans to send their sons and daughters to die, and commit them to a lifetime of debt, to police the world? Where will that stop? Sure, we can justify every invasion/occupation as protecting our national security, but is it really true? And is it right to invade a country that hasn't yet attacked us? Are preemptive strikes our modus operandi now?

The truth is, as much as some people may appreciate our work there, Americans cannot afford this war. We cannot afford it financially. We cannot afford it politically. And most important of all, we cannot afford it in the lives (both physical and emotional) of the soldiers we have lost.

I value the lives of our servicemen and women too much to risk them when we haven't been attacked, when we aren't defending our own soil, and when no other countries are as committed as we are.

There is always the question of what to do with regimes that kill their own: Iraq, Rwanda in 94, Burma, Sudan, just to name a few. For every genocidal maniac we put down, another will take its place. The problem is endless. I am not saying our military should not help in situations like that. But we have to do it with our eyes open, fully aware of the costs and risks that once you meddle, you can never stop. We have to do it with the full consent of the American people, which requires Congress to officially declare war. And we have to do it on a voluntary basis. That is, when we are not defending our own families and homes, our soldiers should have a say in whether or not they want to enter a war for strangers. All servicemen and women who go should be volunteers--not volunteers for the military, but volunteers for that specific war.

Just my opinion.

--------------------------
Support our troops. Bring them home.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 1:13 PM

ANTIMASON


Quote:

Kirkules- I support John McCain because he is running. McCain is running his campaign embracing the decision to fight the war in Iraq, and it's working out pretty good for him so far.


only because he has the backing of the military industrial complex; the guys a CFR member, for crying out loud! of course he's going to be for socialized nation building, hes an admitted globalist


Quote:

You Bush bashers need to get used to the fact that your not going to have Bush to kick around much longer. If you want to help your side of the debate you might want to direct your efforts towards McCain where they might make a difference.


maybe im naive, but ARE their differences between Bush and McCain? hes got the Bushs endorsements.. so he must not stray too far from that neo-con paradigm. McCain had repeatedly stated he is a 'federalist', which in this day and age means he's another "compassionate conservative," aka big government sell out

Quote:

Your only hope of defeating McCain is to hope the war starts to go badly before the election, and that just isn't going to happen.


with respect to our troops, this is a perpetually fatal and flawed policy that has no hope of achieving its objective.

Quote:

McCain like Bush realises that the huge sacrifices our military is making today will pay off down the road when the middle east becomes a peaceful part of the civilized world.


what is the purpose of the war in Iraq? is it to establish a democracy, or to stomp out terror(before it reaches us)? history has solidified that you cannot force a political ideology on a foreign populace, by aggressive military means, if they are not willing; it has never worked successfully, without backfiring and creating resentment. in light of this, so long as we are over there, occupying their countries, we are only instigating terrorism. want to stop "terrorism"? prevent criminals from committing crimes... otherwise, you can forget about putting an end to the insurgency(or any future terror event)

even then, do you think a democratic Iraq will prevent terrorism, entirely?? what if it doesnt... shall we invade the next Middle Eastern country we disagree with? its insane.. and there is no end to what you are suggesting. it amounts to global totalitarian policement; its unAMerican!

Quote:

That's the essence of what McCain meant by us being in Iraq "100 years". We've been in Germany for 60 year and it's been a good thing for the US and Germany. There's no reason the same thing can't happen in the middle east. Unless of course Obama or Clinton surrender before the job is done.


we're not fighting Iraq, we're fighting individuals and militias. as long as we're their, so too will they be. so in essence, we're accepting perpetual warfare. you do realize that were on the verge of bankruptcy right? we cant afford this war another year, let alone 100. we're not a superpower anymore, besides that such authority is mentioned no where in our constitution. apparently, McCain regards it as a useless piece of paper aswell

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Monday, March 24, 2008 6:41 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Dayve:

I have never supported this man - as governor of my home state or as president of the lot of em. I could make a list - but lists are boring - suffice it to say, I dislike the policies of this administration and I most definitely do not condone the murder of innocent civilians.



So you must have been absolutely outraged with the Clintons, Reno, algore, right? You must had had such a dilema trying to vote in 2000, with nobody to vote for.

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Monday, March 24, 2008 11:12 PM

PIRATECAT


For Dayve. What civilians are you talking about. Terrorists murdering Americans, Iraqis, or the Jews. But if Clinton bombs catholics in Bosnia to save mooslambs thats ok. I support the president no matter what party. People with your mindset don't fight for anything. I think they call them slaves.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:01 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by PirateCat:
For Dayve. What civilians are you talking about. Terrorists murdering Americans, Iraqis, or the Jews. But if Clinton bombs catholics in Bosnia to save mooslambs thats ok. I support the president no matter what party.



And when Clinton/Reno murder innocent U.S. Citizens in Waco, TX that's OK also, right? Good thing he wouldn't let the U.S. military use their tanks to defend themselves in combat that week, so he could use the flame-throwing tanks in Waco on U.S. Citizens. And the justificatuion for murdering these citizens? Reno stated they were "stockpiling weapons" which is not a crime in the United States. With the state of Texas average of every man, woman, and child possessing 4.2 weapons, the murdered Citizens in Waco averaged 2.2 weapons for every man, woman, and child - none of them WMDs, just guns and such. I cannot support a President who wants to kill Law-abiding Citizens like myself.

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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 PM

PIRATECAT


Before ya put the red dots on me, I didn't vote for em, nope, no sir rebob. I thought Timothy McVie got em back or did he? Anyhoow Why I hate Clinton is another thread. Enjoyed the chat will talk later gotz to go. lator gator PC.

"Battle of Serenity, Mal. Besides Zoe here, how many-" "I'm talkin at you! How many men in your platoon came out of their alive".

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