REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Illegal immigration

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 07:30
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Friday, April 7, 2006 9:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Compared to other developed (industrialized) nations, Americans take fewer vacations and work more hours. However, disputing Brewski's claim that immigrees are lazy good-for-nothings, the unemployment rate among illegal immigrants is actually lower than among USA citizens. (Dont' ask me how someone came up with THAT figure! I'll try and find the report.)

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 9:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government
In addition, the Mexican government actually provides information on how to evade US Immigration.

The "special relationship" that Bush and Fox share is the "special relationship" of two extremely corrupt wealthy men: one who uses emigration to let the steam out of incipient reform at home, the other who uses immigration to lower wages and benefits in favor of corporations. And we're expected to play that rigged game? I don't think so.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 9:38 AM

CITIZEN




























Some annual average working hours
CountryHours
Korea2390
Poland1984
Mexico1980
Czech Rep1882
Japan1828
Greece1811
USA1777

source: OECD (2004), OECD in Figures, OECD, Paris.



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 10:41 AM

CHRISISALL


Thanks, Citizen, I thought that might be the case.

Stat challenged Chrisisall

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Friday, April 7, 2006 11:42 AM

FLETCH2


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Brewski:
Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.


Do you have stats or links to support your highly dubious 'fact'?



There's a lot of hard-workin' peeps in the world...Chrisisall



I suspect he's refering to GDP per capita, a statistic where the US does very well (though not as well as Norway or Finland.)

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Friday, April 7, 2006 1:48 PM

CITIZEN


Isn't GDP a measure of wealth, not work?



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 2:33 PM

KHYRON


Citizen, is that North or South Korea at the top of that list?

Just curious.

EDIT: Never mind, the figure for Korea will probably be South Korea.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 2:36 PM

FLETCH2


Yes indeed it is, but GDP/capita is (eroneously) used as a shorthand for productivity.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 2:56 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!


So if you want to raise your productivity you just raise the price of your widget. B/c productivity is 'value' of goods/ services produced per work unit (person-hours).


Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 6:08 PM

FLETCH2


In essence yes. There are additional complications. For example if "China Inc" buys "America Corp" lock stock and barrel for $3B then GDP goes up that much because $3B enters the economy. Certain kinds of government loads (or the interest on them??) also count. So if China buys the right kind of bonds to cover US debts the US GDP actually rises.



In addition the GDP/capita works looks better for single integrated markets or for countries with large capital exports per citizen.

The US gets a good score because american steel is used to make american screws that are used in American parts that are put in American cars. Each of those industries return information on their profits so that single piece of steel gets counted multiple times. If Korean steel is used to make Japanese screws that end up in a German car the German economy doesnt see the same multiplier.

Recently economists started to treat the whole of the EU as one market and the overall GDP rose just from doing the calculation that way (ie no "real" increase.)

Norway does well because it exports oil (big ticket export item) and has a small population.

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Friday, April 7, 2006 6:10 PM

PIRATEJENNY


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:
if you want to talk about hypocrites you might want to start with the Mexican government

Point taken.
All the more reason peeps would want to leave, though.

No answers Chrisisall





I think everyone can understand their reasons for wanting to come, point is we can't afford to take them.

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Saturday, April 8, 2006 5:08 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by piratejenny:



I think everyone can understand their reasons for wanting to come, point is we can't afford to take them.

Technically, we actually can afford to take them, we just have to be willing to let go of a large portion of our standard of living, doesn't mean we'd starve or anything, we'd just have more bicycles and less cars, etc.
(Upside- end of the evil car insurance industry )

Livin' too high off the hog anyway Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 3:13 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Phaedra:
The people who marched are our neighbors, coworkers, friends and fellow Americans. They deserve respect.


One last addition to this thread:

Articles 5 – 10 of the Declaration on the Human Rights of Individuals Who are not Nationals of the Country in which They Live sets out the rights of non-citizens (referred to as “aliens” in the Declaration):

• Aliens must receive the same treatment as nationals of the country in which they live with regard to the following rights:

The right to life and security of the person, including freedom from arbitrary arrest or detention

Protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy, family, home or correspondence

Equality before the courts, including the free assistance of an interpreter

The right to choose a spouse, to marry, and to found a family

Freedom of thought, opinion, conscience and religion

The right to retain language, culture and tradition

The right to transfer money abroad

• The following rights must be granted to aliens so long as they do not interfere with national security, public safety, public order, public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others:

The right to leave the country

The right to freedom of expression

The right to peaceful assembly

The right to own property individually or in association with others

Liberty of movement and freedom to choose their place of residence within the borders of the country

The right of spouse and minor or dependent children to join a lawful alien, as provided by national law

• Aliens lawfully residing in the country must be granted the following rights so long as they observe the country’s laws and respect the customs and traditions of the people:

The right to safe and healthy working conditions, fair wages, and equal pay for equal work

The right to join trade unions

The right to social services, health care, education, and social security

• The following additional rights of aliens are particularly enumerated in the Declaration:

Protection from torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading punishment

Freedom from being subjected to medical or scientific experimentation without the alien’s free consent

Protection against arbitrary or unlawful expulsion from the country

The right to defend oneself from expulsion, except where compelling reasons of national security require otherwise

Protection from being arbitrarily deprived of lawfully acquired assets

The right to communicate at any time with the consulate or diplomatic mission of the country of which he or she is a national

THESE ARE RIGHTS WE OURSELVES EXPECT FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WHEN WE TRAVEL OR WORK.



...Just in case any here want to say anything about 'rights'.

Chrisisall

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 6:15 PM

KHYRON


So are you saying that those laws apply to illegal aliens too? Because in my book illegal aliens have broken the law (hence the term 'illegal'), so they should have a much more limited set of rights than 'legal' aliens, just as criminals have a reduced set of rights.

Besides, it's not like it's THOSE rights that they were protesting for. They basically already have those ones. The protestors are looking for MORE rights, ones that they, being illegal immigrants, have no right to have.

Frustrated that people keep ignoring the word 'illegal' Khyronisall



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 10:34 PM

SASSALICIOUS


I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.

Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.

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Sunday, April 9, 2006 10:48 PM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Brewski:
Americans in general are the hardest working people in the entire world when compared with other nations. That is a fact.

Do you have stats or links to support your highly dubious 'fact'?



There's a lot of hard-workin' peeps in the world...Chrisisall



I can't quote an actual source off the top of my head at the moment, but Americans work more hours per week and more days per year than nearly everyone in the world. With the exception of I think the Japanese and maybe some other country in Europe.

Whether or not our actual work is harder though, could be up for debate.

I can't believe it's taken me this long to read this thread . . .

*runs off to continue studying for exams*

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Monday, April 10, 2006 12:10 AM

FLETCH2


I looked into this was about 18 months ago during a discussion as to how to measure worker productivity. Like many things to do with statistics it depends on what you look at.

American worker productivity is amongst the highest in the world (IIRC Korea is greater) BUT Americans work more hours than most industrial economies. If you look at the productivity value per hour American productivity is about average with most western economies with places like Germany and Sweden significantly ahead.

So if you have a "Scotty" style job (you have exactly 3 hours to fix things before the ship explodes) hire a German. If you don't care how long it actually takes but are only willing to pay for 3 hours hire an American (and get the extra time for free...)

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Monday, April 10, 2006 2:50 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:

Frustrated that people keep ignoring the word 'illegal' Khyronisall


I have two problems with this.

1) For me, legal and illegal have little meaning in a country so ready to assign one or the other arbitrarily, or to suit the purpose at hand. There is only what a man can do, and what a man can't do, most CEO's know and operate by this.
2) You're using my 'isall'.

Chrisisall TM (C) 2006

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Monday, April 10, 2006 5:34 AM

HERO


I'm starting to think that despite the crisis on the border and the millions marching in the streets, and the national security problems, we are at an impasse on this issue.

Everyone agrees the problem exists, but there is no consensus among elected leadership to take action.

I think perhaps this situation needs to explode. A huge riot in Washington or a massacre along the border. The leadership of both parties are in a coma when it comes to this issue and if millions marching peacefully for rights they don't have can't wake people up, then senseless violance might do the job.

I'm not advocating violence by either side, in fact I hope that it can be avoided and I'm greatly impressed by the demonstrations and behaivor of everyone from the Minutemen's peaceful border watch to the pro-immigration rallys across the country. It might just be my frustration at whats not happening or maybe because I've studied history and it seems a violent act might be necessary to create the political will to enact a solution.

And its the million illegal Irish we should be really worried about...

My solution, close the border with the military (at least long enough to train and equip the new border patrol and build a nice big fence), guest worker status for everyone here (you can't deport 12 million people), felony offense to employ illegals, immediate deportation for anyone who doesn't register, and the removal of Hillary Clinton office (oddly that also my solution to global warming, the economy, the high gas prices, the sequal to Serenity, what I'm fixing for dinner tonight, and just about any other problem I can think of).

H

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Monday, April 10, 2006 6:23 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.

Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.



I'm a bit confused, was that in response to my post? Because I never said anything about education or abortion, at least not in this thread (and I certainly would never have claimed that abortion is genocide).



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 6:35 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
1) For me, legal and illegal have little meaning in a country so ready to assign one or the other arbitrarily, or to suit the purpose at hand. There is only what a man can do, and what a man can't do, most CEO's know and operate by this.


There's still a difference, even if employers and some people on here can't tell.

Legal: One has waited in line to be allowed into the foreign country. If one is allowed in, it means one has got the necessary credentials to be of aid to that foreign country in some way.

Illegal: One skipped the queue and snuck in without waiting like all those nice people waiting to be let in legally have, and one doesn't even necessarily have the necessary credentials.

As a crude comparison, imagine there's a job opening and there's a bunch of qualified people waiting to be interviewed for that job, but they're still stuck at the security check of that particular building. Now imagine there's somebody that sneaks in past the security check, goes up to the interview, bullshits his way through it and gets the job because he was the first one there. Does that seem right to you?

It's not a great comparison, but it sort of gets the point across. And it's not just potentially legal aliens that get screwed by this, it's also people living in that country that screwed over (as has been spoken about before on this thread).

Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
2) You're using my 'isall'.




Khyroniseverything



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 7:00 AM

SASSALICIOUS


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
I don't know what state you're from, but in WI in-state tuition isn't cheap. In fact, on the basis of money alone, it would almost be cheaper for me to pay out of state tuition at a number of other schools. Lucky for me, my school is a damn good one. Furthermore, as far as I know, one needs to be a citizen/have a green card and a state drivers license to establish residency and get federal aid, so I highly doubt most undocumented workers can afford higher education. At least for awhile.

Also, referencing a previous post of yours, abortion is not genocide.



I'm a bit confused, was that in response to my post? Because I never said anything about education or abortion, at least not in this thread (and I certainly would never have claimed that abortion is genocide).



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.



No, it wasn't directed at you. It was to PirateNews. Apparently I clicked on the wrong message reply link in my slightly comatose state early this morning. Sorry about that.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 7:03 AM

KHYRON


Quote:

Originally posted by Sassalicious:
No, it wasn't directed at you. It was to PirateNews. Apparently I clicked on the wrong message reply link in my slightly comatose state early this morning. Sorry about that.


No problem .



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 7:27 AM

JAYTEE


It's that tragic Space Dementia making you all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart!

"Wish I had some of whatever this Piratenews guy is smoking"

Jaytee

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Monday, April 10, 2006 9:10 AM

CITIZEN


Quote:

Originally posted by JayTee:
It's that tragic Space Dementia making you all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart!

"Wish I had some of whatever this Piratenews guy is smoking"

Jaytee


You really really don't...



More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity. But I know none, and therefore am no beast.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 10:47 AM

FLETCH2


I admit to being quite surprised by the list of "rights" people posted earlier. Speaking as a "legal" I had to do the following to get my visa.

1) I had to find an American willing to take financial responsability for me (in this case my wife.) She had to prove that she was in good financial shape which involved us filing with the IRS for the 8 years she lived abroad (Americans are supposed to file every year even if they dont live/earn pay in the US, she hadn't because it was pointless but the INS made her play catch up since they didn't take foreign tax documents as proof of earnings. She also needed a letter from her job saying what the terms of her employment were, how much she was paid, how long employed etc. Since the company was the same as the one she worked for in Europe she was able to prove she had a job for more than 2 years. I don't know what would have happened had she started with an entirely new employer.

2) I had to sign an afadavit saying that I would not use public assistance for 12 years. I have no idea what counts as public assistance over here, but if this is something that the human rights document says I should get, well they have legals sign that right away if they want a visa.


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Monday, April 10, 2006 11:00 AM

KHYRON


Fletch, I totally agree with you. Being a "legal" in Canada, I also have the feeling I signed some of those rights away when I applied for a visa. Can't be bothered to go through my documents to check which ones, but it certainly does seem like a lot of rights to give to non-nationals. Most people would be lucky if their own country gave those rights to its citizens.



Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Monday, April 10, 2006 11:11 AM

FIVVER


Of course there is part of the declaration he 'forgot' to mention:

Quote:


Article 2
1. Nothing in this Declaration shall be interpreted as legitimizing the illegal entry into and presence in a State of any alien, nor shall any provision be interpreted as restricting the right of any State to promulgate laws and regulations concerning the entry of aliens and the terms and conditions of their stay or to establish differences between nationals and aliens.



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Monday, April 10, 2006 1:01 PM

MILAGROBEAN


My fault, don't go pointing fingers at dear Chrisisall (this is the wifey who shoved the link at him after he'd been working on ungodly number of hours)

Here's the link: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/o_nonnat.htm

And you forgot the last sentence of that article:

However, such laws and regulations shall not be incompatible with the international legal obligations of that State, including those in the field of human rights.

And the intro to the articles:

Considering that the Charter of the United Nations encourages universal respect for and observance of the human rights and fundamental freedoms of all human beings, without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,
Considering that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaims that all human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights and that everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in that Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,

Considering that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights proclaims further that everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law, that all are equal before the law and entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law, and that all are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of that Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination,

Being aware that the States Parties to the International Covenants on Human Rights undertake to guarantee that the rights enunciated in these Covenants will be exercised without discrimination of any kind as to race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status,

Conscious that, with improving communications and the development of peaceful and friendly relations among countries, individuals increasingly live in countries of which they are not nationals, Reaffirming the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

Recognizing that the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms provided for in international instruments should also be ensured for individuals who are not nationals of the country in which they live



This was pasted from a Salon thread, the poster's a military man who also had this to say:

Quote:

The people marching are marching because they see something happening that is very wrong. They are trying to stop as much of the injustice as they can. Whether they are citizens or not, whether they have "birth-rights" or "guest-rights"

“to what extent should the Constitution protect noncitizens—immigrants, undocumented persons, tourists, foreign students—in the United States”

According to Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, “a citizen is a member of a state to whom he or she owes allegiance and is entitled to its protection.” Hence, from this definition, it is implicit that a non-citizen is someone who is not a member of a state nor owes allegiance to the state he or she currently resides.



And this:

Quote:

'Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!'

As far as the struggles people go through to get to out "beloved" country, I have seen first hand, those who make it easily, who have a life threatening trip, and those who die trying.

These have been Cuban, Haitian, Dominican, Mexican, Central/South American...

I have escorted "boats" (a loose term for some of the vessels), to a safe mooring. I have pulled people from the water, who lived. I have pulled people from the water who died for the chance to be free.

I have been part of a crew who pulled families from dingys, rafts, and floating planks. Where we had to give them medical care, carefully feed them (soft, bland foods) because all of their food was washed overboard. I have seen babies who have not had milk for 2 days. We cleared out lounge area, and one of our "heads" (showers/sinks/toilets) so they could shed there clothing and clean themselves up, and then taken some of our clothing from our lockers so they could have something clean to wear.

I have seen crewmen and INS personnel jump into the water to save people because when they saw the USCG Cutter, they all went to one side of the vessel (tipping it over), they would change into their "United States clothes", still knee deep in seawater and human waste.

The laws have changed over the years, but they still keep coming. All they want to do is to work, have a better life, send some money home to help. The ones depicted in "Scarface" are so very few and far between.

I speak Florida Spanish (a bastardization of Cuban and Puerto Rican), Haitian Creole, and English. I grew up in South Florida, Pre-Castro until just a few years ago. The memories, good and bad, heartwarming and sad, will always be with me.

People are people, no matter where they come from, some of the people in South Florida, who never got the paperwork, were better citizens than those who were citizens by birth right.

If they live and work within our borders, they are ours. Just as we expect them to live within our laws, we have the responsibility to provide them with the same rights, privilieges, and services as anyone else. The only thing "formal" citizenship should give them is the right to vote. Everything else, in both directions, is part of a responsible society.



Here's a link to the thread, lots of points, from both sides. http://tabletalk.salon.com/webx?14@358.SbDoaGCuMMc.3@.773b93c8/0





milagrobean

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Monday, April 10, 2006 3:42 PM

MILAGROBEAN

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:10 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:


It's not a great comparison, but it sort of gets the point across.

Here's another comparison, (again rather crude, but...):

You're in a lifeboat. The ship went down days ago. You find out that two on board, a man and his son (who take regular turns rowing and whom many have come to like), circumvented the lottery process and 'snuck' their way onto the lifeboat.

Do you toss them overboard 'cause technically, they shouldn't even be there?

Or do you toss off that Dr. Smith-lookin' motherfrakker who's stealing extra rations and water for himself (but got on legit)?

Milagro-lovin' Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:32 AM

G1223


Well the problem is not just with Bush. This goes back decades and both parties have been taking advantage of the illegal situation.

Back during the Clinton years there was a nominee who was dropped after it was found she had an illegal as a nanny adn knew the woman was illegal.

So this not just one side of the political sysytem.

TANSTAAFL

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Milagro- All that means is that there are a heckuva lot of illegals here attempting to apply political pressure thru non-voting means ... not entirely reassuring.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 5:43 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
All that means is that there are a heckuva lot of illegals here attempting to apply political pressure thru non-voting means ... not entirely reassuring.


I find it somewhat reassuring in that it means rich folk aren't the ONLY ones can do that...

Play the system that plays you Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:12 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You're in a lifeboat. The ship went down days ago. You find out that two on board, a man and his son (who take regular turns rowing and whom many have come to like), circumvented the lottery process and 'snuck' their way onto the lifeboat.

Do you toss them overboard 'cause technically, they shouldn't even be there? Or do you toss off that Dr. Smith-lookin' motherfrakker who's stealing extra rations and water for himself (but got on legit)?

Not exactly the right comparison. You work on cruise ship. Some of you are cooks, some waiters, some cleaners, and a couple of you are executives who own the cruise line. Some of you were allowed on the boat illegally and have been put to work for next to nothing because it costs the cruise line much less to hire them. So, while YOU are getting $10 an hour, the guy next to you is making $6. So, do you toss out the executives or the guy who's making $6? Or both?

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 6:43 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!



Border? We don't want no stinkin border!

You capture a pirate ship that's been raping, robbing an killin. What do ya do?

YOU MAKE EM WALK THE EFFING PLANK!

What did the British Navy call that thing where you "keel-haul" sombody, as shark bait? Didn't Mal refer to that in Firefly?

Quote:

U.S.-Born Latinos Oppose Illegal Immigration

AP | April 11 2006

PHOENIX -- Contrary to scenes of hundreds of thousands of united Latinos marching across the country in support of immigration reform, a sizable number of the ethnic group opposes the marches and strongly objects to illegal immigration.

Their voices have largely been muffled by the massive protests, however, which continued Monday as thousands of demonstrators took to the streets of cities nationwide.

Those protesting are voicing their support of a Senate bill that would give an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants living in the country a chance for U.S. citizenship.

"That's the objective of the marches — to give the impression that all Latinos are for allowing the illegals to become citizens," said Phoenix resident Lionel De La Rosa. "Well, I'm not."

The 71-year-old Texas native and Vietnam veteran said he favors punitive measures more in line with the immigration bill passed by the U.S. House in December that would have made it a felony to be in the United States illegally.
"I'm for that 100 percent," he said. "As far as my Latino friends are concerned, they all agree on this."

A 2005 survey by the Pew Hispanic Center found that Latinos in general have favorable attitudes toward immigrants and immigration. But when it comes to illegal immigration, significant numbers have negative views of undocumented immigrants.

The survey found those feelings are strongest among middle-class and middle-age U.S.-born Latinos.

And though 68 percent of Latinos said they believe undocumented immigrants help the economy by providing low-cost labor, nearly a quarter felt undocumented immigrants hurt the economy by driving down wages.

U.S.-born Latinos looked even less favorably toward undocumented immigrants than foreign-born Latinos. More than a third of U.S.-born Latinos said undocumented immigrants hurt the economy, compared with just 15 percent of foreign-born Latinos.

Latinos also are divided over whether to allow undocumented immigrants to earn citizenship, the survey found.

Though 88 percent of foreign-born Latinos favored allowing undocumented immigrants to earn citizenship, a smaller number of U.S.-born Latinos, 78 percent, said undocumented immigrants should be allowed to do so.

Though views such as De La Rosa's are common among Latinos, they are rarely reflected among Latino leaders, said Steven Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington, D.C. think tank that favors greater restrictions on immigration.

"It's easy to tap into the views of the intellectual class, but harder to tap0into the views of the common folks," he said.

And because so much of the debate over illegal immigration comes off as anti-Hispanic, Latinos who favor greater restrictions on immigration are often reluctant to speak out.

"That's extremely off-putting," Camarota said. "Whatever their views, they keep it to themselves."

Many Latinos fear being ostracized for their negative views of undocumented immigrants, said Phoenix resident Frank Barrios, 64.

"There are a lot of Hispanics that are upset about the undocumented just the same way as the Anglo population," said Barrios, a third-generation Mexican-American who traces his family's roots in Arizona to the 1870s. "That group is larger than many people would believe."

www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/4/10/144315.shtml?s=lh



I'd picket with those Latinos anytime. Better yet, we can hunt illegals, make citizens arrests, and deport em. And make citizens arrests on their employers, and get paid that $250,000 bounty!


www.acuf.org

A day in the life on the animal farm

by John Lee
www.PirateNews.org
April 10, 2006

Castrated steer #1: You know, none of the cattle that ride in farmerman's truck ever come back. I wonder where they go? I find it very suspicious that farmerman built this barbed wire electric fence, and makes us stand out in the rain and lightning storms. And when farmerman cut our balls off, he didn't even use anethesia. I'm starting to think something suspicious is going on.

Castrated steer #2: Awe shucks, that's all jus one of them thar conspiracy theories. Lookie thar, here comes farmerman's truck now. Let's run over thar and git a ride on that shit-covered box trailer. I bet he's got some really tasty hay waitin fer us when we git where we're goin. Yee haw!

(a little later)

Castrated steer #2: What tha heck is goin on? What's all that screaming about? I ain't never herd nuttin like that before! It's creepifyin! And what's that SMELL? I ain't never smelt nuttin like that before.

Castrated steer #1: I got a bad felling about this...

(a little later)

Castrated steer #2: What's that guy doing with that BIG knife? Why does that other guy have a BIG hammer in his hand? And why are they covered in BLOOD?! It don't make no sense...

Castrated steer #1: Must be one of them "conspiracy theories" you idiot. DAMN! I knew I shoulda kicked down that fence, or at least kicked that damn farmerman in the head when I had the chance. Hell, might as well kick these assholes in the nuts, since I've got nothing better to do. Come on, #2, let's just do it!

Castrated steer #2: You're crazy! I'm gonna just stand right here and do what I'm told. I'm sure farmerman wouldn't let nuttin bad happen to us. He loves us.... ARRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG.....

Castrated steer #1: (kung foos butchers in slaughterhouse, escapes, lives happily ever after with an army of free cows, after they destroyed the slaughterhouse and... well, it was a nice dream as he slipped into unconsciousness, as his blood gushed into the drain in the concrete shit-covered floor, and he was hoisted by machine for dismemberment while still alive, but at least God granted him one last dissociation from reality as he floated away into eternal sleep)

(cut to White House)

Junior Bush: Boy, this hamburger sure is tasty. Tastes like sheeple!

Dick Cheney: You mean Goyim. Ymmmmm.


FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:19 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Hero:

I think perhaps this situation needs to explode. A huge riot in Washington or a massacre along the border. The leadership of both parties are in a coma when it comes to this issue and if millions marching peacefully for rights they don't have can't wake people up, then senseless violance might do the job.

I'm not advocating violence by either side, in fact I hope that it can be avoided and I'm greatly impressed by the demonstrations and behaivor of everyone from the Minutemen's peaceful border watch to the pro-immigration rallys across the country. It might just be my frustration at whats not happening or maybe because I've studied history and it seems a violent act might be necessary to create the political will to enact a solution.

My solution, close the border with the military (at least long enough to train and equip the new border patrol and build a nice big fence), guest worker status for everyone here (you can't deport 12 million people), felony offense to employ illegals, immediate deportation for anyone who doesn't register, and the removal of Hillary Clinton office (oddly that also my solution to global warming, the economy, the high gas prices, the sequal to Serenity, what I'm fixing for dinner tonight, and just about any other problem I can think of).

H



Dammit Hero, I have to agree with you, mostly.

But Hillary's name is Blythe-Rockefeller, and there's only one way to stop a Rockfeller - fuck em to death.

Dammit Mal!...I forgot my line!
-Jayne

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 3:54 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Not exactly the right comparison. You work on cruise ship. Some of you are cooks, some waiters, some cleaners, and a couple of you are executives who own the cruise line. Some of you were allowed on the boat illegally and have been put to work for next to nothing because it costs the cruise line much less to hire them. So, while YOU are getting $10 an hour, the guy next to you is making $6. So, do you toss out the executives or the guy who's making $6? Or both?

Toss no one off, sounds like I got a good deal, is all.

I guess deep somewhere down I'm one of those socialist-types. I see the world as melding into one (low) economic level at some point, with just a few in a position of wealth and power (Like it's always been, eh?).
It's like the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries were some sort of abberation- power and wealth got somewhat distributed in spots, wasn't meant to happen.
Whether it letting in illegals, or squandering our resources on war intended to secure future oil access, the bottom line is we've decided collectivly to follow assholes into the toilet, and complain when they flush.
I don't know if the economic destruction of our country can be reversed at this point, it would take such a major change in education, science and military intervention, that it just doesn't seem possible to me.
Just read that 70% of Americans dissaprove where this country is heading. That it takes this long for any to see what a destructive fool Bush is is very unsettling. I saw it a long way off, and I'm no genius.
Signy, please tell me that Finn, AURaptor, Hero, and others are right, that I'm just prone to doomy gloomy scenarios, and that all will be well with this country in a matter of hours....

Off-topic it seems Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Hey, ya know, after reading my posts and yours I just talked myself out of my anti-immigration stance. It's not their fault, it's the *ssholes who set the system up. Bottom line: the solution is to raise the minimum wage and enforce it to make sure that nobody is working at starvation wages (or less).

And for those who complain about the competition from cheap labor: Have you joined a union? Do you boycott Walmart? Did you push your Congressmen for a higher minimum wage, or push for worker and environmental protections in NAFTA? If not.... if you're a pro-corporate anti-labor sort of person then you're diving headlng into the toilet.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 4:59 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


USA is currently under attack by invasion from a foreign nation, but the front lines are now moved so far inward so that it is essentially a Civil War. Especially when you considered the traitors who hijacked the white House, Congress, all state legislatures and most county commissions and city councils, that welcome illegal criminal alien invaders with billions of our taxdollars, in violation of their oaths of office to represent The People and enforce The Law.

Quote:

FORGET ABOUT CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ, ONE IS COMING TO AMERICA

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
NewsWithViews.com
April 11, 2006

While American troops are hunkered down in "safe zones" in Iraq trying to stay out of an escalating civil war, our government seems oblivious to a growing threat of civil war right here in the United States. As anyone can see, millions of illegal aliens living here are becoming more vocal, more demonstrative, more belligerent, and more violence-prone by the day. Unless our government takes deliberate and significant action immediately, America could be in for serious civil unrest real soon.

It is absolutely incredible that our government would tolerate people who are not even legal residents of our country to generate the kind of mass demonstrations and protests that we are witnessing on a daily basis! It is more than incredible; it is outrageous!

According to The Christian Science Monitor (April 10, 2006), immigrants (most of them illegal) are "mobilizing for major 'action.'" Nearly 100 American cities will soon feel the brunt of this "action."

Organizers describe these coming demonstrations as "the biggest social movement of Hispanics since the United Farm Workers of Cesar Chavez." In addition, organizers predict that thousands of Muslims will also join millions of illegal Hispanics on what can only be regarded as an anti-America crusade.

The American people need to understand that the United States is under attack! No, not by Iraq or Iran, but by Mexico! Yes, Martha, you had better believe it. The Mexican government is deliberately and systematically working to destabilize and undermine the very fabric and framework of American society. And President George W. Bush and Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy (among others) are aiding and abetting this effort.

Right now, much of Latin America is embroiled in a serious takeover by Leftist-Marxists. In all likelihood, Mexico's next leader will be an open Leftist. Vicente Fox has helped create an increased appetite for socialism (not that Mexico ever had a true understanding of freedom and republicanism), and the next Mexican leader is certain to finish the job.
Quote:



Today a unique and alternative education system is rapidly emerging in the misty mountains and steamy jungles of the Mexican southeast. Indian children in hundreds of Maya communities throughout the state of Chiapas are attending new “Zapatista” schools.

Schools for Chiapas / Escuelas para Chiapas
1631 Dale Street
San Diego, CA 92102 USA
(619) 232-2841
schoolsforchiapas@schoolsforchiapas.org
www.schoolsforchiapas.org


However, Fox has done more than turn his own country leftward. He has superintended over the biggest invasion of the United States in our country's history. That's right, invasion! A close, personal friendship with President George W. Bush has given Fox the opportunity to purposely allow (or even send) millions of criminals, thugs, anarchists, and potential terrorists to swarm over our southern border in breathtaking numbers. (As I have chronicled before in this column, nearly half of all illegal aliens currently living in the U.S. came here since Bush became president in 2000.)

Yet, while Mexican President Fox encourages and even promotes massive illegal immigration to the U.S., his own country's constitution in Chapter 3, Article 33, states, "The Executive of the Union has the exclusive right to expel from the national territory, immediately and without necessity of judicial proceedings, all foreigners whose stay it judges inconvenient. Foreigners may not, in any manner, involve themselves in the political affairs of the country." Imagine that.

Quote:


Illegal alien terrorists attack US citizens
and wave Mexican flags in USA

US FLAGS BANNED IN USA

Dozens of high school students protested a temporary school policy forbidding students from displaying the U.S. flag as well as flags from other countries amid racial tensions following immigration rallies.

"When it involves the American flag and its abuse in vilifying other people, we simply will not tolerate it," Stumpf said. "They were using the symbol derisively as misguided patriotism."

Students were warned about the policy Friday and several were suspended, although Stumpf would not provide details. Then, about 100 students protested during lunch time.

Student Dustin Carlson told Denver station KCNC-TV that he was suspended for two days.

"I'm getting suspended for it and personally I think that's uncalled for," he said. "If this country means freedom, then why can't we fly our own flag? It's ridiculous."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1793734



Even without the massive demonstrations by millions of foreign invaders, America is reeling from the negative effects that these people have created. In an open letter to President Bush, Ron Maxwell (writer and director of "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals") wrote, "Where was the concern for American schoolchildren forced to sit in overcrowded classes, for American patients forced to wait in overcrowded hospitals, for American workers whose wages are being undercut, for American drivers forced to sit in interminable traffic jams in over-whelmed freeway systems, for the victims of organized gangs, for the American college students who are turned away from publicly funded state universities, for many African Americans who are being literally displaced from their neighborhoods while being moved figuratively, once again, to the back of the bus, for those environmentalists and conservationists who want to protect open space and slow down urban sprawl, for the American taxpayers who have had to bear the burden of billions of dollars in increased welfare costs, over-burdened prisons, extra police and security and even, adding insult to injury, for bilingual education?" (Source: The Washington Times, April 6, 2006)

I trust Mr. Maxwell is not holding his breath while he waits for President Bush to respond, because Bush knows the problems his laxity and indifference have created and frankly, my dear, doesn't give a darn!

If anything is going to be done about the illegal alien problem it will be because the American people, conservatives, liberals, moderates, independents, whites, blacks, Hispanics, Jews and Gentiles, young and old, from blue states and red states, from big cities and small farms, Christians and unbelievers stand up and in no uncertain terms demand that the Congress of the United States put a stop to it NOW!

This means making it a crime for any employer to knowingly hire an illegal alien punishable with serious fines and imprisonment for repeat offenses. It means demanding that our federal government seal our borders (especially the southern one) and stop the tide of foreign invasion immediately. If Saudi Arabia can put up a security fence between itself and Iraq (and it is doing just that), we can put one up between us and Mexico! It means to stop underwriting these foreign invaders by not paying for their health care, schooling, and food stamps. It means to stop giving them drivers licenses. It means making certain punishment worse than any potential benefit.

We can either deal with the illegal immigration problem now as described above or we will certainly deal with open civil war in the very near future. The American people better decide right now which it will be, because time is running out for Congress to be able to fix the problem. Once that happens, we won't have to worry about civil war in Iraq, it will happen right here in the United States.

www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin293.htm



Zoe: Do you REALLY think any of us are going to live through this?
Jayne: Well I might!

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:16 PM

RIVER6213


Listen you alarmist.

They start a civil war here and they will all die; all of them.

It’s our fault that this problem is a problem. In many ways a lot of companies love having the illegal around just so they can pay them peanuts. We sat on our asses for decades allowing this problem to get larger and larger, and now we want to throw them out? Stupid. Its time for this country to take some responsibilities for its actions. Make those people who are already here legal citizens, toss out the criminal elements, and actually put some real money into patrolling our borders. We should have done that after 9/11, but we didn’t so we get what we deserve. This whole thing reeks of complete politics and I hate it.

I’ve been reading some of the opinions on the internet by people who don’t think. One idiot says that we should round them all up at gun point, and march them all to the border...all 12 million of them. Yeah, that would look really good on CNN, and the whole world would really get to see our true colors. Mass relocation to solve a problem that we let get out of hand…give me a break. And Piratenews…you are such a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

River

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:01 PM

REAVERMAN


PN, just stop. Everyone here thinks you are a nut. Maybe if you toned down the rhetoric and started including (yes, I'm saying it again, and I'm gonna keep saying it until you listen) EVIDENCE, us reasonable folks might not be so quick to dismiss you as a schitzophrenic idiot.

Or, you could continue to blame all the world's problems on those dastardly British-Commie-Nazi-Alien-Jews, and we can continue with the thinking you are a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:29 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:


www.aztlanunderground.com

COVER OF HOT NEW ALBUM: MEXICANS SHOWN SPEARING AMERICAN "PIGS"

Lyrics
506 years of indigenous resistance
The prophecies are coming true
The redemption of the red people has come!
The 6th sun now arises
The 7th fire has arrived
Cihuatl is reclaiming
We have returned to Aztlan
We have returned to Aztlan!!!!

WE DIDN'T CROSS THE BORDERS, THE BORDERS CROSSED US YET THE SETTLER NATION LIVES IN DISGUST!!

GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK OUT, GET THE FUCK, FUCK, FUCK OUT GET THE FUCK OUT

WASICHU [White Man] EATER OF THE FAT WASTER OF EARTH MOTHER AND PEOPLE COLONIZER OF AZTLAN AND THE WORLD GET THE FUCK OUT!!!!

www.americanpatrol.com/FEATURES/010421AZTLANRAP/FeatureAztlanRap010421
.html




That's about 1/3rd as many FUCKS as 30 seconds primetime, on MTV's Police State propaganda reality show, "Scared Straight". MTV's new job sends kids to state prison to be scolded at by large black felons screaming "FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK... FUCK...!" Jewish-owned MTV isn't allowed to play music anymore. That might make people THINK. ("F-word was NOT bleeped out on MTV)

For example, Guns & Roses "I DON'T NEED YOUR CIVIL WAR".

Quote:



Slash / McKagan / Rose
Special Thanks Niven / James

"What we've got here is failure to communicate." (KKK preacher from Porky's Revenge?)

Some men you just can't reach...
So, you get what we had here last week,
which is the way he wants it!
Well, he gets it!
N' I don't like it any more than you men.

Look at your young men fighting
Look at your women crying
Look at your young men dying
The way they've always done before

Look at the hate we're breeding
Look at the fear we're feeding
Look at the lives we're leading
The way we've always done before

My hands are tied
The billions shift from side to side
And the wars go on with brainwashed pride
For the love of God and our human rights
And all these things are swept aside
By bloody hands time can't deny
And are washed away by your genocide
And history hides the lies of our civil wars

D'you wear a black armband
When they shot the man
Who said "Peace could last forever"
And in my first memories
They shot Kennedy
I went numb when I learned to see
So I never fell for Vietnam
We got the wall of D.C. to remind us all
That you can't trust freedom
When it's not in your hands
When everybody's fightin'
For their promised land

And
I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war

Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars

We practice selective annihilation of mayors
And government officials
For example to create a vacuum
Then we fill that vacuum
As popular war advances
Peace is closer

I don't need your civil war
It feeds the rich while it buries the poor
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
And I don't need your civil war
No No No No No No No No
I don't need your civil war
I don't need your civil war
Your power hungry sellin' soldiers
In a human grocery store
Ain't that fresh
I don't need your civil war
I don't need one more war
I don't need one more war
Whaz so civil 'bout war anyway

www.weboshawa.com/gnr_lyrics.htm



Don't want that now, do we?

Quote:

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Listen you alarmist.

They start a civil war here and they will all die; all of them.

It’s our fault that this problem is a problem. In many ways a lot of companies love having the illegal around just so they can pay them peanuts. We sat on our asses for decades allowing this problem to get larger and larger, and now we want to throw them out? Stupid. Its time for this country to take some responsibilities for its actions. Make those people who are already here legal citizens, toss out the criminal elements, and actually put some real money into patrolling our borders. We should have done that after 9/11, but we didn’t so we get what we deserve. This whole thing reeks of complete politics and I hate it.

I’ve been reading some of the opinions on the internet by people who don’t think. One idiot says that we should round them all up at gun point, and march them all to the border...all 12 million of them. Yeah, that would look really good on CNN, and the whole world would really get to see our true colors. Mass relocation to solve a problem that we let get out of hand…give me a break. And Piratenews…you are such a stupid fuck.

River



Don't be such a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

But the Civl War already started, darlin. Suckered or not, THEY crossed our border. THEY perp crimes every day in USA.

It's not 12-million, it's over 40-million, soon to me over 100-million.

By pointing out the problem, and the solution, it's possible to AVOID the otherwise INEVITABLE Civil War #2. But the ONLY way to avoid that genocide is to DO what needs to be done, ASAP.

Arrest and deport ALL 40-million CRIMINALS. 99.99% still retain all citizenship and benefits in their home nation. No need to feel sorry for them. In USA, they live 20 per house. In Mexico, they have their own house.

Retreat from Iraq and Iran. NOW. Put the troops on the border, especially the national guards, who do have arrest powers from the state governors. Fed military would violate the Posse Committaus Act prohibition on martial law from Civil War #1.

Build that WALL, not a fence. With VIDEO CAMERAS. Manned by machine gun towers, JUST LIKE IN ISRAEL TO SHOOT ISRAELI CITIZENS WHO ARE ARAB SEMITES. If it's good enuff for the Jews, then it's good enuff for US.

Ban all traffic courts until every illegal alien is deported. Then continue the ban of traffic courts, which are unconstitutional (Equal Protection doctrine, denial of Due Process, FRAUD, anti-public safety).

Arrest every employer of illegal aliens. Use asset forfeiture seizure laws to confiscate their businesses and personal assets, as routinely done to patsies for the Bush CIA White House drug running schemes. Current US Code allows $250,000 fines for employers and coyote human smugglers.

Train every US citizen in how to make a citizen's arrest of an illegal alien, for criminal trespass, if GOP Congress and Bush Gang refuse to pass a new law making it a felony. Even if it stays a misdemeanor, it's still possible to have probable cause to arrest without eyewitnessing the crime, based on reasonable suspicion to check ID. Any US citizen can currently be immediately arrested for failure to show ID to police, even without being charged for any crime, says US Supreme Court. Equal Protection doctrine applies here, if the feds and states continue to grant ilien invaders special rights not granted to US citizens.

We can't currently vote any politician out of office, due to CIA and foreign nations controlling our Black Box voting computers. But we can arrest those politicians at any time. All you have to do is follow their car for 5 minutes (including prosecutors and judges and crooked cops).

If we don't do all these things NOW, then Joss' fav book The Killer Angels is going to come true(movie Gettysburg re US Civil War with Union soldier John REYNOLDS). Of course, that's the plan of the NWO shadow govt... for those dumb enough to fall for it.

It only took the NWO 15 years to totally destroy Iraq, for the next 45-BILLION years, soon to be broken into 3 nations - with all the oil given to Israel (Russian Jewish mafiya), via it's pipeline now stolen from Syria. If we have another Civil War in USA, between US and Aztlan, all that DU ammo is going to render USA uninhabitable for 45-billion years...

GOOD people had better start COMPETING for political office in your home town, instead of PLAYING. Gangsters have hijacked our govts, and they're the only ones who want illegal aliens. Gangstas don't play fair, but that just makes it more fun. Pretend its a sport, and play to win. Pretend your life depends on it, because it does.

As a profesisonal soldier, the lesson I learned on Sept 11, 2001 at 10am EST, is that a shadow "govt" - FAR more powerful than the US govt or any other govt, with FAR greater military capability than USA for at least the past 60 years - is currently running the US govt like a puppeteer. These same global shadow gangsters have hijacked the immigration invasion as a weapon of economic warfare.

They did the same in North Vietnam, by perping terroism and blaming the Commies, to drive 2-million Catholics into South Vietnam, then gave them the land of the South Vietnamese, to intentionally turn them into "Viet Cong" ("peasants"). These criminals can turn peaceful people into desperate killers, killing their own neighbors. They will perp assassinations of US politicians, local, state and fed, to blame the Mexicans. CIA's Pheonix Program assassinated 60,000 South Vietnamese politicians and police officers. Look what they're doing every day in Iraq.

That's what's planned for USSA. Unless we stop it. And that can't happen by typing a fake name on a keyboard.


How about I stay out of your whoring, and you stay out of my thieving.
-Mal

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:44 PM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
It only took the NWO 15 years to totally destroy Iraq, for the next 45-BILLION years, soon to be broken into 3 nations - with all the oil given to Israel (Russian Jewish mafiya), via it's pipeline now stolen from Syria. If we have another Civil War in USA, between US and Aztlan, all that DU ammo is going to render USA uninhabitable for 45-billion years...



Wow, not only have you never opened a history book, you've never even seen a science/chemistry book. DU does become radioactive when it vaporizes (tips of some armor piercing rounds vaporize on impact to melt armor), but the rate of radioactive decay is nowhere close to 45 billion years. Hell, look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki; people live there now, after only sixty years. Even with a more modern warhead that has a lot more radioactive potential, the radioactive material would decay completely in a little more than a century.

Plus, Iraq is obviously not unliveably radioactive, seeing as how there are tens of millions of people living there without dying of radiation poisoning. 45 billion years, HA!

P.S. I still think you're a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]

You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 12:27 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by reaverman:

Wow, not only have you never opened a history book, you've never even seen a science/chemistry book. DU does become radioactive when it vaporizes (tips of some armor piercing rounds vaporize on impact to melt armor), but the rate of radioactive decay is nowhere close to 45 billion years.

Plus, Iraq is obviously not unliveably radioactive, seeing as how there are tens of millions of people living there without dying of radiation poisoning. 45 billion years, HA!




USA nuked Iraq with 400,000 Hiroshima bombs
www.mattfitt.com

When I loaded nukes for 3 years, we NEVER got tested for radiation. We were never allowed to wear radiation detection film badges. I never saw any person test our bombs for radiation, especially alpha dust. There is nothing in my medical records showing radiation test results. USAF did test and confirm my loss of hearing. And all I got was this Gulf War Syndrome - no medical treatment allowed. But our base could sure spend $600,000/day on kerosine.
www.geocities.com/pentagonwhistleblower
www.raf-upper-heyford.org


F-111 supersonic swingwing robot bomber
www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-111-pics.htm
www.bunkertours.co.uk/raf_upper_heyford.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Upper_Heyford
www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/upper_heyford.htm

Now the base is abandoned at RAF Upper Heyford, turned into a new car parking lot for 1,000s of British cars that no one can afford to buy. So you Brits can drive over there and test for radiation. No airbase is USA has anywhere near the protection as US bases in Europe, where each aircraft had its own "bombproof" bunker with blast doors. Does that sound right to you?

200,000 DEAD US Gulf War soldiers, so far. 500,000 disabled US Gulf War veterans. Those are the official US govt statistics from Veterans Administration from the 15-year nonstop Iraqi War, quoted by Major Doug Rocce PhD, who was in charge of US military DU "cleanup" in Gulf War 1, before all his men died and he got cancer. Inteview last week on The Power Hour radio news, interviewed by Capt Joyce Riley, RN, TX Air National Guard.
http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/piratenewsrss/message/200
www.traprockpeace.org/doug_rokke_12july04.html
www.thepowerhour.com

FREE DVD for soldiers and veterans:
www.beyondtreason.com
FREE VIDEO DOWNLOAD:
www.currentera.com/blog/?page_id=506

Quote:


DU son of a US Gulf War soldier,
as seen on cover of LIFE magazine:
www.noduweapons.org



1.7-MILLION Iraqis have been genocided, so far. Massive increase in hideous birth defects, for both Iraqis and US soldiers.

Quote:


DU baby
www.voicesuk.org


100s of photos of DU babies in Iraq:
www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html



"'Depleted' URANIUM is RADIOACTIVE at all times. It decays immediately into GAMMA RAYS, X-RAYS, BETA PARTICLES, AND DEADLY ALPHA PARTICLES. It IGNITES at over 3,000-degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel of a gun, like a magnesium flare. When it hits a target it explodes into radiactive dust. Once you breathe or eat alpha radiation, it's like getting a medical x-ray every minute of your short life. DU is a radioactive heavy metal that binds to DNA. DU half life is 4.5-BILLION years, but it requires 10 half lives to reduce radiation to safe levels. DU is suicide for any soldier that touches it, even before it's fired from a gun. Even M-16 ammo is now radioactive DU."
-Major Doug Rikke, PhD, www.ThePowerHour.com Radio News
www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium.html

Quote:


www.notinourname.net/war/du.html

US Govt manuals written by Major Rokke:

April 29, 2004 Memorandum for Commanders, MEDCOM major subordinate
Commands on "Medical Management of Army Personnel Exposed to Depleted
Uranium (DU)
www.traprockpeace.org/du_medmgmt_otsg.pdf

Army Regulation 700-48 – Logistics – Management of Equipment
Contaminated with Depleted Uranium or Radioactive Commodities; and
Department of the Army, Pamphlet 700-48 - Handling Procedures for
Equipment Contaminated with Depleted Uranium or Radioactive
Commodities
www.traprockpeace.org/r700_48.pdf
www.traprockpeace.org/p700_48.pdf

U.S. Army Technical \ Bulletin- TB 9-1300-278: "Guidelines For Safe
Response To Handling, Storage, And Transportation Accidents Involving
Army Tank Munitions Or Armor Which Contain Depleted Uranium"
(Headquarters, Department Of The Army, Washington, D.C., JULY 1996).
www.traprockpeace.org/tb_9-1300-278_1996.pdf

(these safety manuals are TOP SECRET to active duty soldiers)




Support our troops - buy a US flag made by slaves in Commie China
www.anthonycoppedge.com

Jr Bush is the fukkin prick who went AWOL, disobeyed direct order for drug test in TX Air National Guard, was demoted from pilot to mail clerk, and sentenced to 6 months extra duty for desertion during Vietnam Wars. I wonder how he jumped to the front of the line for TX ANG during Nam, when he already had a DUI conviction, plus two arrests for theft and vandalism. Hell, he didn't even attend Basic Military Training nor Officer Candidate School, as required for all other soldiers.
www.bushawol.com
www.geocities.com/green_party_dwi_jokes


It's a mosaic composed of the photos of only a few 100 of the American service men and women who have died in Iraq. Here is a medium-sized version, 800 x 925 pixels. Here is the full-sized version, 1890 x 2209 pixels. By Joe Wezorek. US Govt don't count soldiers who don't die instantly on the battlefield, don't count illegal aliens in US military, and don't count CIA mercs.
home.ripway.com/2004-1/54222/warpresMED.jpg
home.ripway.com/2004-1/54222/warpresBIG.jpg
home.ripway.com/2004-1/54222/warpres21.jpg
www.commonground.ca/iss/0407156/about_the_cover.shtml
home.ripway.com/2004-1/54222/warpresVERS3.jpg
www.atomicbooks.com/products/-/3065.html
http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/001625.html


www.planestv.com/planestv/f111.html
All US F-111s are now destroyed by US Govt

MUSIC VIDEO DOWNLOAD: Love Missile F1-11
by Sigue Sigue Sputnik
The USAF F-111 supersonic swing wing bombers that started it all, from RAF Upper Heyford and Land of Oz. Guest appearances by Lancair's 450mph homebuilt jet-prop and the World's Fastest Piston-Engine Production Plane, and Desert Storm Troopers Georges Bush, Tricky Dick Cheney and Ronnie "Just Shoot Me George" Reagan. Gangsta Government Rap run amok by Transvestites for Bush in London, England, HQ for the New World Order. By Pirate News TV
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2005/10/7209.php

Here's what the US Govt thinks about it's LEGAL citizens in my hometown of Knoxville, Tennessee, were the feds have many nuke-bomb factories:

Quote:

INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION OF THE EAST TENNESSEE TECHNOLOGY PARK

Office of Environment, Safety and Health, U.S. Department of Energy (2000)

Pollution above toxic levels surrounding Oak Ridge Nuclear Laboratory (ETTP)

HTML Report (200 pages - reclassified Top Secret)
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/oversight/reports/gdps/0010ettp/index.html

PDF Report (200 pages - reclassified Top Secret)
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/oversight/reports/gdps/0010ettp/0010ettp.html

Verbatum from the declassified portion of the Report:

"Conservative estimates indicated that 35,000 pounds of uranium were released into the air from all sources. 4,300 pounds of uranium a month was unaccounted for or released to the environment. ETTP operates an incinerator which handles radioactive, hazardous and uranium-contaminated PCB wastes. ETTP generated transuranic elements (isotopes with atomic numbers greater than uranium) such as neptunium-237 and plutonium-239; fission products such as techneitum-99; PCBs; toxic metals; and volatile organic compunds such as trichloroethene (TCE) and present risk to the public. Some contaminants migrated outside the Plant boundary. Waste disposal practices included direct discharge of radioactive materials, toxics and caustics to holding ponds and storm drains, and incineration and burial. Reports reflected a number of spills of nitric and hydrochloric acids, in one case 200 gallons. Numerous large fires and explosions were reported. It is impossible to characterize exposure because of inadequate surveys and incomplete records. Records indicate that as contamination levels increased, exposure controls were reduced. Contamination above limits was commonly detected. Operations have released a variety of contaminants into the environment, such as burial of low-level and hazardous waste in landfills and dumping directly into the Clinch River. Large amounts of contaminated equipment and scrap material were sold at public auction. Tens of thousands of pounds of flourine and hydrogen flouride were emitted annually. The investigation team identified over 600 releases of uranium hexaflouride, and a large, visible cloud was released outside a building. Exposure to 'intense clouds' of uranium powder dusts was prevalent and resulted in intense beta radiation fields. Each month dozens or workers were identified as having exposures exceeding plant control guides. Extensive contamination was prevalent. Recordsindicate many air samples in excess of Plant Allowable Limits. Both chemical and radiological materials have routinely been discharged from the Plant, from both sanitary sewage and storm water systems and materials were directly discharged in Mitchell Branch and Poplar Creek. One million pounds of blowdown water was discharged a day. The hexavalent chromium concentration in Poplar Creek is equal to the level regulated by the site's permit. Contents of 500 uranium hexafloride and other gas cylinders were emptied into the unlined holding pond by shooting the cylinders with high-powered rifles, and this pond discharged into Poplar Creek. Records confirm that radiation exceeded drinking water standards. Over 80,000 drums of pond sludge with low concentrations of uranium were generated in 1988. Ventilation was modified to discharge mercury fumes above the roof. Elevated levels of mercury were found in urinalyses. Records refer to the recovery of tons of mercury. Traps would blow out spilling mercury on the floor. Air sampling in the 1990s identified mercury levels several times the Threshold Limit Value. Continual and volumnous process leaks (blowoffs) were vented to the atmosphere. 4,300 pounds of uranium hexaflouride were released per month. Losses were excessive. 10,000 union grievances were filed and management disputed grievances concerning safety in favor of economic considerations. Many storm drains were not moitored before 1992, and routine and accidental wastes have adversely impacted the environment and the aquatic habitat. Weaknesses in the sampling and monitoring of air pollutant emissions raise concerns regarding the accuracy of public dose and exposure calculations. Environmental radiological protection and surveillance are not compliant with DOE Order. Few records reflect involvement by the Atomic Energy Commission in investigations of serious events. Levels of airborne radioactivity were as high as 35,800 dpm/ft3, and far exceeded the PAL of 2 dpm/ft3. [That's radiation levels over 17,000 times the maximum limit.] Airborne radioactivity far in excess of normal background levels was measured off-site as far as five miles away. A number of criticality and sub-criticality accident experiments were performed and posed a severe radiation hazard. Bladder cancer rates were seven times higher than for the general population, and stomach ulcers were 6.5 times greater. Inhalation of airborn radiation can increase the risk of future cancer." (verbatum from the Report)

NOTE: This report only covered the K-25 plant, not the DOE National Nuclear Security Administration's Y-12 nuclear bombs factory, not the thousands of contaminated lab rats from ORNL's Y-12 nuclear bombs factory Mouse House that are incinerated at the University of Tennessee Medical Center in downtown Knoxville, and did not cover Top Secret "criticality" pollution, "referred to as 'special hazards'" (ie, "small" explosions due to accidental nuclear reactions), and "are discussed in a separate classifed document." The GOPS government of Tennessee previously gave ETTP/ORNL a clean bill of health in 1999.

RALPH NADER ON NUKES: "High-level nuclear waste will be hazardous for more than 200,000 years. An Energy Department study found that a severe accident in a rural area could contaminate a 42-square-mile area, require over a year to 'clean up', and cost $620 million."


Quote:

Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments (ACHRE)
http://gwis.circ.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/radiation/

ACHRE was created by President Clinton on January 15, 1994 to investigate and report on the use of human beings as subjects of federally funded research using ionizing radiation.

11. Intentional Releases: Lifting the Veil of Secrecy
http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/achre/chap11.html




The Jewish KosherNostra Mishpucka Mafia runs the cartel for nuke waste in USA, HQed in my hometown, who I sued in 4 class actions and filed felony charges against. This are the fukkin CRIMINALS who profit by selling DU to the Pentagon, instead of burying it - or better yet, shut down all nuke powerplants. The same Jewish Mafia paid $7-billion by Gangsta Govt to "demolish" the WTC with its Knoxville business partner Controlled Demolitions Inc, who bombed 7,000 govt buildings. Now they're teamed up with Carlyle Group.
www.geocities.com/knoxville_tn_epa
www.geocities.com/towcrime
www.bfi.com
www.controlled-demolition.com
www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/portfolio/portfoliol5-3295.html

And I did take chemistry in engineering college. And I've read 1,000 history books. What about you?


We got work to do. So let's shut up and do it.
-Mal

FIREFLY SERENITY PILOT MUSIC VIDEO V2
Tangerine Dream - Thief Soundtrack: Confrontation
http://radio.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/8912.php

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 8:01 AM

RAZZA


Piratenews! -- All the news that’s fit to print, but not worth reading!

Top Five Most Wacko Conspiracy Theories as proposed by Piratenews:
#5. “I'm sure there are many more images online, at least until the "end of the Cold War" against fake "Communism" in the 1990s, when the CIA's Afghan freedom fighters were hired to attack the Serbs in Yugoslavia, and to play the patsies for CIA and MI6 on 9/11 and 7/7.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19100

#4. “NOPD gunned down 5 "military contractors" on the levees in a gun battle, probably to stop Blackwater CIA from bombing more levees.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19100

#3. “The Communist Chinese own several US ports and US naval bases in USA, plus the Panama Canal, and run US Dept of Homeland Security in the British Bahamas. The British Empire have run Communist China since winning the Opium Wars over 100 years ago.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19727

#2. “Col Donn de Grand-pre, in his books and commissions on 9/11, quotes airline pilots and fighter pilots presenting the evidence that the airline passengers and pilots were gassed shortly after takeoff, and they were unconscious when they crashed or were shot down over the ocean and in Pensylvania, but that the jets that hit targets were robots loaded with bombs.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643

And the #1 Wacko Conspiracy Theory proposed by Piratenews straight from Dr. Strangelove:

“Lay off the flouride - it has the same active ingredient as antidepressants like Prozac, and was used by Nazi Germany, Commie Russia and NeoCommie USSA to keep their slaves from trying to escape genocide in the Death Camps. Then maybe you can THINK hard enough to see reality.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643

Most Ironic quote by Piratenews:
“I don't have to make any "case". I just report the facts and draw the obvious extrapolation based on historical reality. The ranting, theorizing and wild conspiracy theories by Citzen, Bush et al just exposes their insanity for all to see. Don't worry, USA is being ripped to shreds right before your closed eyes, so you're never see it, so it can't be real - or can it? The definition of insanity is ignoring reality.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643

Most Absurd statement by Piratenews:
Draft all the Mexican illegals into the US military and invade Mexico, overthrow and slaughter its Gangsta Govt like we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, and export our democracy like we love to do. Make English the official language of Mexico, so the Mexicans will want to stay in their own fucking country. So what if millions of Mexicans are genocided? USA genocided 2-million Vietnamese, 2-million Iraqis, 10-million Germans, and 100-million Americans in USA. USA nuked Iraq with 400,000 Hiroshima bombs, and even nuked USA with 1,050 nuke bombs. NUKE MEXICO CITY, BEFORE THEY DO IT TO US VIA THE COMMIE CHINESE MILITARY AND ARABS RUNNING US PORTS VIA THE BRITISH EMPIRE. What's the big deal?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19153

Best example of the Pot calling the Kettle black by Piratenews:
“Go ahead you traitors, keep "rebutting" facts and photos with NOTHING but preschool banter, while 80% of readers in this forum agree with the facts I post. I hope your paycheck is worth it. Not. The People aren't buyin your shit no more.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19643

And the award for most paranoid statement goes to:
“The Jewish KosherNostra Mishpucka Mafia runs the cartel for nuke waste in USA, HQed in my hometown, who I sued in 4 class actions and filed felony charges against.”
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=19153


"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
-- Napoleon Bonaparte

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Wow. That must have taken WAAAY too much time! But it is funny to see all the weirdness in one place, and now I don't have to wade thru PN's posts... so, thanks for that!

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:27 AM

REAVERMAN


Quote:

Originally posted by piratenews:
"Depleted" URANIUM is RADIOACTIVE at all times. It decays immediately into GAMMA RAYS, X-RAYS, BETA PARTICLES, AND DEADLY ALPHA PARTICLES. It IGNITES at over 3,000-degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel of a gun, like a magnesium flare. When it hits a target it explodes into radiactive dust. Once you breathe or eat alpha radiation, it's like getting a medical x-ray every minute of your short life. DU is a radioactive heavy metal that binds to DNA. DU half life is 4.5-BILLION years, but it requires 10 half lives to reduce radiation to safe levels. DU is suicide for any soldier that touches it, even before it's fired from a gun. Even M-16 ammo is now radioactive DU.
www.traprockpeace.org/depleted_uranium.html



Wow... you are amazing. You say shit that simple common sense refutes. I know the effects of Alpha-Particles, and, if DU was emitting them constantly, our troops would be dead within 24-48 hours of inhaling or ingesting them. Seeing as how our soldiers are constantly surrounded by DU, why is our entire invasion/occupation force (and the military in general) NOT DEAD?

As for Gamma-Rays, they are emitted only in large expendatures of energy, like, say, a nuclear blast. Gamma-rays dont just fly out 24/7. X-Rays are just another form of Gamma-Ray, so the same applies to them.

Also, DU doesn't "ignite at over 3000 degrees F the instant it leaves the barrel". Have you ever fired a gun? I have. I have fired pistols, rifles, assault rifles, and battle rifles, and the ammunition sure as hell never got that hot then. Heat doesn't come from nowhere. The heat of a bullet comes from the ignition of the powder charge, and you can't tell me that gunpowder gets that hot, because, if it did, an ordinary lead bullet would vaporize as it left the barrel, never even coming close to a target. Even on those armor piercing DU rounds I've talked about, the heat has to come from somewhere. They vaporize on impact because of the impact. The amount of energy released by an object of the bullet's weight and velocity impacting, let's say, steel is enourmous. It is enough to vaporize the tip of the round, as well as the armor it hits. I'll add guns to the list of the many things you need to research before making stupid-ass remarks.

P.S. yep, I still think you're a [* MOD ACTION: personal attacks and flaming are not accepted on these forums -- if this continues, threads will be moved wholesale to troll country and accounts may be suspended *]


You're welcome on my boat. God ain't.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I'm a chemist... and I agree. But I was't even gonna go there because to take the time to refute PN is to give more credance to his posts than they deserve.

---------------------------------
Free as in freedom, not beer.

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Thursday, April 13, 2006 11:37 AM

OLDENGLANDDRY


So at last we have an answer.
PIRATEJEW has "Loss of hearing" confirmed by USAF.

That explains why he NEVER LISTENS.


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