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Rich guys are most likely to have no idea what they’re talking about, study suggests

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, April 29, 2019 21:28
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Saturday, April 27, 2019 10:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Researchers embarked on a novel study intent on measuring what a Princeton philosophy professor contends is one of the most salient features of our culture — the ability to play the expert without being one.

Or, as the social scientists put it, to BS.

Research by John Jerram and Nikki Shure of the University College of London, and Phil Parker of Australian Catholic University attempted to measure the pervasiveness of this trait in society and identify its most ardent practitioners.

Study participants were asked to assess their knowledge of 16 math topics on a five-point scale ranging from “never heard of it” to “know it well, understand the concept.” Crucially, three of those topics were complete fabrications: “proper numbers,” “subjunctive scaling” and “declarative fractions.” Those who said they were knowledgeable about the fictitious topics were categorized as BSers.

Using a data set spanning nine predominantly English-speaking countries, researchers delineated a number of key findings. First, men are much more likely than women to master the art of hyperbole, as are the wealthy relative to the poor or middle class. North Americans, meanwhile, tend to slip into this behavior more readily than English speakers in other parts of the globe. And if there were a world championship, as a true devotee might appreciate, the title would go to Canada, data show.

The study drew from the Program for International Student Assessment, which is administered to tens of thousands of 15-year-olds worldwide. The test included a background questionnaire that captures demographic information, along with students’ attitudes toward the subjects they study in school. That section of the test included the questions about math knowledge.

The data revealed that boys across all nine countries were significantly more likely than girls to pretend expertise, with the difference between the two working out to nearly half a standard deviation in some countries — a big gap, statistically speaking.


BS gaps between girls and boys (measured in standard deviations from average)
Country Girls Boys Gap
England -0.23 0.24 0.48
Ireland -0.23 0.23 0.46
Scotland -0.23 0.21 0.44
Australia -0.21 0.21 0.42
Wales -0.21 0.21 0.42
New Zealand -0.20 0.20 0.40
Northern Ireland -0.18 0.17 0.35
Canada -0.17 0.17 0.34
USA -0.13 0.13 0.25


Interestingly, the gender gap for this trait in the United States is the smallest among the countries studied, about half the size of the gap in England. Americans are, perhaps, more egalitarian in our exaggerations than our peers across the Atlantic.

There’s also a significant class-based difference, with respondents from the wealthiest households showing a greater proclivity toward overstatement than those from the poorest. As with gender, however, the gap in the United States is the smallest among the countries surveyed.

BS gaps by economic class (measured in standard deviations from average)
County Bottom 25% Next 25% Third 25% Top 25% Gap
Scotland -0.36 0.08 0.09 0.30 0.65
New Zealand -0.29 0.03 0.09 0.33 0.62
Ireland -0.21 0.07 -0.02 0.23 0.44
Australia -0.18 -0.12 0.02 0.25 0.42
Wales -0.17 -0.03 0.04 0.19 0.36
England -0.12 -0.09 0.02 0.17 0.29
Canada -0.13 -0.07 -0.05 0.15 0.28
USA -0.09 0.02 -0.04 0.11 0.20

Finally, a between-country comparison finds that young people in Canada and the United States are the most likely to over-sell themselves overall, with those in Europe being much less likely to engage in such behavior.

Taken as a whole, the results appear to suggest that the countries with the greatest propensity toward bombast also have the smallest variances between groups living within them. In the U.S. and Canada, for instance, there may simply be so much BS going around that everyone ends up partaking in it.

In Europe, the trait is less widespread but more confined to males and the wealthy. That may result in less pressure on women and the non-rich to enhance their social standing through pretense.

BS by country (measured in standard deviations from average)
Country BS score
Canada 0.298
USA 0.252
Australia 0.179
New Zealand 0.135
England 0.093
Ireland -0.255
Northern Ireland -0.265
Scotland -0.432

The study also found that the true practitioners are more likely to “display overconfidence in their academic prowess and problem-solving skills.” The individuals most likely to claim to be math whizzes, in other words, are also the most likely to claim expertise in subject areas that don’t exist. That finding suggests that people who are particularly boastful of their abilities should be treated with some skepticism.

Nevertheless, the study gives reason to believe there’s a useful life skill to be had here, such as the ability to bluff your way to success. “Being able to bulls--- convincingly may be useful in certain situations (e.g. job interviews, negotiations, grant applications),” the study authors write. That would be a plausible explanation for why kids from wealthy families are more likely to adopt this behavior: they’re taking cues from their successful parents.

The study also suggests that men’s higher propensity toward this behavior “could help them earn higher wages and explain some of the gender wage gap,” said study co-author Nikki Shure. “This has important implications for thinking about tasks in job interviews and how to evaluate performance.”

One caveat to consider is that the study subjects were adolescents. Though it seems a good bet to assume that personality traits developed as teens will carry over into adulthood, this study isn’t proof of that. “These 15-year-olds are most likely already thinking about applying to university or entering the labor market, both of which are points during which bulls---ing may serve as an advantage,” Shure said.

The authors also point out that their study was narrowly defined and restricted to the realm of mathematics. “Ideally,” they wrote, “future research should try to include a greater number of fake constructs in order to maximize precision of the bulls--- scale.”

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 7:56 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The study also found that the true practitioners are more likely to “display overconfidence in their academic prowess and problem-solving skills.” The individuals most likely to claim to be math whizzes, in other words, are also the most likely to claim expertise in subject areas that don’t exist. That finding suggests that people who are particularly boastful of their abilities should be treated with some skepticism.



It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Though it hardly applies only to rich people, I've rarely met anybody in middle management or above that really deserved that role, other than the fact that they have plenty of hubris on display.

I wrote that last comment before looking at the article and what do you know...

Quote:

Effect of self-perception on others' perception
People perceive confident individuals as competent and, as a result, promote individuals with higher self-confidence.






Dunning-Kruger also works the other way, in that you can do things easily and expect that everybody else can do them too.

It took me many years and developing a sense of empathy to not succumb to it. I'd often find myself getting angry at how little my peers could accomplish in the same time I'd get stuff done. From the most menial of jobs all the way up to some pretty good salaries.

I often thought that they were lazy or stupid, both of the above, or they just didn't care.

Though there are plenty of lazy and stupid people, and people that just don't care, that's just not always the case. My mind works different than most other minds and it often takes me very little time to calculate every detailed step and perform the necessary tasks and functions to get my best ROI for the work put in.

It's a lot less frustrating to work with others when I learned to recognize this.

Work smart, and hard. ~Mike Rowe

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:03 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


The claim of the study seems to be that males are the driving force of this practice.

But the stats seem to belie such claim. Look at the Scotland figures: females are the least likely, and the country as a whole ranks last (with off-the-charts SD).

On the other hand, females in the USA are the most near the male's, and that brings USA to the top ranking.
And this is when they are 15, before they get into Gender Studies and such BS.
I wonder if this study was spurred by Brie-type delusionals.

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 11:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I certainly can see how ' the rich ' would fall into the D-K effect mindset. But let's be real, it's displayed time and time again by entertainers and newsies in the MSM, who believe THEY have all the answers, as they surround themselves w/ YES men and women, and getting what they want takes so little, if any , effort at all.

Why should anyone listen to the likes of AlGore, Bernie Sanders, Leo DiCaprio, Barbara Streisand or Bono on such topics like climate change ?

They are so disconnected from living what they preach, they'd not recognize a small carbon footprint if their life depended on it. "OMG, how do people LIVE like this ?" is what we'd get.

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 5:23 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The study also found that the true practitioners are more likely to “display overconfidence in their academic prowess and problem-solving skills.” The individuals most likely to claim to be math whizzes, in other words, are also the most likely to claim expertise in subject areas that don’t exist. That finding suggests that people who are particularly boastful of their abilities should be treated with some skepticism.

It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Though it hardly applies only to rich people, I've rarely met anybody in middle management or above that really deserved that role, other than the fact that they have plenty of hubris on display.

I wrote that last comment before looking at the article and what do you know...
Quote:

Effect of self-perception on others' perception
People perceive confident individuals as competent and, as a result, promote individuals with higher self-confidence.


Dunning-Kruger also works the other way, in that you can do things easily and expect that everybody else can do them too.

It took me many years and developing a sense of empathy to not succumb to it. I'd often find myself getting angry at how little my peers could accomplish in the same time I'd get stuff done. From the most menial of jobs all the way up to some pretty good salaries.

I often thought that they were lazy or stupid, both of the above, or they just didn't care.

Though there are plenty of lazy and stupid people, and people that just don't care, that's just not always the case. My mind works different than most other minds and it often takes me very little time to calculate every detailed step and perform the necessary tasks and functions to get my best ROI for the work put in.

It's a lot less frustrating to work with others when I learned to recognize this.

Work smart, and hard. ~Mike Rowe

Do Right, Be Right. :)

When I first read the OP, I thought of a syndrome which, because of the lack of accurate perception of stupid or incompetent people, they are incapable of realizing that they are, in fact, stupid and incompetent.

Turns out, this is also attributed to Dunning-Kruger, although not spelled out that way in this thread.

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:34 PM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I certainly can see how ' the rich ' would fall into the D-K effect mindset. But let's be real, it's displayed time and time again by entertainers and newsies in the MSM, who believe THEY have all the answers, as they surround themselves w/ YES men and women, and getting what they want takes so little, if any , effort at all.




You mean like Chump, dimwit?

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 6:38 PM

WISHIMAY


I find the three of you sitting around discussing psychological concepts to be just HILARIOUS.


This must be what going mad is like.

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 8:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I certainly can see how ' the rich ' would fall into the D-K effect mindset. But let's be real, it's displayed time and time again by entertainers and newsies in the MSM, who believe THEY have all the answers, as they surround themselves w/ YES men and women, and getting what they want takes so little, if any , effort at all.




You mean like * President Trump, dimwit?



To some degree, sure, but he's not like most other Ivory tower dwellers. But I see you only pay attention to that which you wish were true, and ignore the rest.

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Sunday, April 28, 2019 8:29 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Wishy's life just sucks so hard that she tries to bring everybody else down to her level of misery any chance she gets.

It's kind of sad, really, that all those generations of inbreeding leading to a host of physical and mental ailments down in Nilbog still leave her with just a high enough IQ to dwell on just how awful her life is.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, April 29, 2019 1:14 AM

WISHIMAY


Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Wishy's life just sucks so hard that she tries to bring everybody else down to her level of misery any chance she gets.

It's kind of sad, really, that all those generations of inbreeding leading to a host of physical and mental ailments down in Nilbog still leave her with just a high enough IQ to dwell on just how awful her life is.




Do you really believe that if you repeat "Nilbog" and "misery" every day it'll make your life seem better?

Well, you better record yourself saying it and put it on a loop so you can actively deny you are a total loser every second of every day.

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Monday, April 29, 2019 8:05 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Seriously. What's your fixation with me, Wishy?

I can't post in any thread without you being your lunatic self anymore.

Why don't you take a vacation from the RWED again. Nobody missed you last time you did.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, April 29, 2019 8:09 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

I find the three of you sitting around discussing psychological concepts to be just HILARIOUS- TWITCHY
You're pathetic, TWITCHY. Nobody can have a conversation without you butting in and attacking people for no reason whatsoever??

If Haken wanted to moderate this board and ban the trolls, you'd be the third in line. Jeez, don't you recognize when you're just being a complete douche?

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, April 29, 2019 9:08 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

I find the three of you sitting around discussing psychological concepts to be just HILARIOUS- TWITCHY
You're pathetic, TWITCHY. Nobody can have a conversation without you butting in and attacking people for no reason whatsoever??

If Haken wanted to moderate this board and ban the trolls, you'd be the third in line. Jeez, don't you recognize when you're just being a complete douche?

Is that also part of Dunning-Kruger? That complete douches don't have the objective perception to understand they are complete douches?

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Monday, April 29, 2019 9:31 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by WISHIMAY:
I find the three of you sitting around discussing psychological concepts to be just HILARIOUS.
This must be what going mad is like.

Nilbog. Misery.

You've had the Market cornered on going mad, for ages now.

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Monday, April 29, 2019 11:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



Quote:

I find the three of you sitting around discussing psychological concepts to be just HILARIOUS- TWITCHY

You're pathetic, TWITCHY. Nobody can have a conversation without you butting in and attacking people for no reason whatsoever??
If Haken wanted to moderate this board and ban the trolls, you'd be the third in line. Jeez, don't you recognize when you're just being a complete douche? =SIGNY

Is that also part of Dunning-Kruger? That complete douches don't have the objective perception to understand they are complete douches? = JSF

I think that must be so. It takes a stupid person to not recognize how stupid they are, just like it takes an asshole not to recognize their essential assholeness.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .

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Monday, April 29, 2019 1:49 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The study also found that the true practitioners are more likely to “display overconfidence in their academic prowess and problem-solving skills.” The individuals most likely to claim to be math whizzes, in other words, are also the most likely to claim expertise in subject areas that don’t exist. That finding suggests that people who are particularly boastful of their abilities should be treated with some skepticism.

It's called the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Though it hardly applies only to rich people, I've rarely met anybody in middle management or above that really deserved that role, other than the fact that they have plenty of hubris on display.

I wrote that last comment before looking at the article and what do you know...
Quote:

Effect of self-perception on others' perception
People perceive confident individuals as competent and, as a result, promote individuals with higher self-confidence.


Dunning-Kruger also works the other way, in that you can do things easily and expect that everybody else can do them too.

It took me many years and developing a sense of empathy to not succumb to it. I'd often find myself getting angry at how little my peers could accomplish in the same time I'd get stuff done. From the most menial of jobs all the way up to some pretty good salaries.

I often thought that they were lazy or stupid, both of the above, or they just didn't care.

Though there are plenty of lazy and stupid people, and people that just don't care, that's just not always the case. My mind works different than most other minds and it often takes me very little time to calculate every detailed step and perform the necessary tasks and functions to get my best ROI for the work put in.

It's a lot less frustrating to work with others when I learned to recognize this.

Work smart, and hard. ~Mike Rowe

Do Right, Be Right. :)

When I first read the OP, I thought of a syndrome which, because of the lack of accurate perception of stupid or incompetent people, they are incapable of realizing that they are, in fact, stupid and incompetent.

Turns out, this is also attributed to Dunning-Kruger, although not spelled out that way in this thread.

I did not elaborate as much on this post as I had planned.

The key point had been made that Critical Thinking was a key component to persons with High IQ, excellent reasoning ability.

This exact Critical Thinking capability is what is lackng in those with lower IQs, what distinguishes them.

And this exact lack of Critical Thinking capacity is what prevents them from seeing that they lack it, or even understand it.


Kinda like a Catch-22 for IQ.

Similarly I find it humorous when folk brag to all about their high IQ, their IQ Score, and they haven't the slightest clue what they are talking about, what the number means, what Scale they are on, what their percentile is, just No Clue.


Regarding the original quote, it seems to be particularly harsh on "math whizzes" although I cannot imagine other fields of study are any less prone.
I cannot deny that I am, in fact, a math whiz, by practically any measure, and I feel their assessment to be disparaging.

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Monday, April 29, 2019 8:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


I think one of the problems regarding IQ's and people's perceptions of their own intelligence today are all the free IQ tests out there online.

I regularly score anywhere from 145 to 165 when I take these, but I doubt very much that it's anywhere near that high.

My guess is that millions of people have taken these tests, and nobody has ever gotten under 100. The tests themselves are clickbait. They're designed to make the rounds on places like facebook, and they almost always require you to leave an email address to get your results.

How many people do you think would be so happy with their score of 60 that they'd go and brag about it to their social media friends and get them to take the test too?

So you've already got a generation of over-educated, extremely entitled kids coming out of college making minimum wage and living at their parents house, depleting what's left of their meager retirement accounts. Now they're all walking around doubly pissed off because they all believe they have a 150 IQ too.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

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Monday, April 29, 2019 9:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


You might be making an argument that if you believe what you read on algore's interwebs invention, you might be stupid.

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