REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Meanwhile, as Greece struggles to unshackle itself from IMF aid, Ukraine puts on the yoke

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Thursday, June 20, 2024 08:54
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Monday, December 29, 2014 11:21 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Ukraine Lawmakers Approve 2015 State Budget to Unlock Aid

Quote:

Ukraine’s lawmakers approved the 2015 state budget as the country seeks to unlock the next tranche of a $17 billion bailout loan from the International Monetary Fund.

The budget was backed today by 233 lawmakers in the 450-seat Kiev-based legislature at 4:30 a.m. after debating tax-code changes and other issues since 10 a.m. yesterday. Supporters of the bill sang the national anthem and Cabinet members hugged one another after the legislation was approved.

“This budget, like other budgets adopted in this hall, is far from perfect,” Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said before the vote. “That’s why the budget must be reviewed no later than Feb. 15. We will amend it based on the result of talks with international financial organizations.”

The $17 billion bailout is already proving insufficient as Ukraine is grappling with its deepest recession since 2009 and its currency has plunged 48 percent against the dollar this year. The country’s credit rating was cut this month by Standard & Poor’s, which said a default could become inevitable as central bank reserves are melting and a bailout is being held up as fighting continues in the country’s east.

Ukraine needs $15 billion on top of the existing bailout, according to the European Union, to stay afloat as the bloodiest conflict since World War II ravages industry in the country’s Donetsk and Luhansk regions. The government estimates gross domestic product will contract 7 percent this year, while foreign reserves are below $10 billion -- the lowest in more than a decade.
IMF Mission

IMF is moving “expeditiously” to continue discussion with the government on a reform program to stabilize the economy and restore sustainable growth, the fund’s representative office in Kiev said today by email. The IMF mission will work in Kiev beginning Jan. 8 until before the end of the month.

An IMF mission will return early next year to discuss financial aid should parliament approve the budget, Finance Minister Natalie Jaresko said Dec. 26. The budget is aimed at stabilizing state finances, which will help stabilize the hryvnia rate, she said.

The budget envisages an increase of defense spending to 5.2 percent of GDP, Jaresko said. It cuts social spending to keep the budget deficit in check, while doubling duties to 10 percent on imports that are not “essential.”

The government sees the budget deficit, excluding funds needed for state-run energy company NAK Naftogaz Ukrainy, at 3.7 percent of GDP. Yatsenyuk said the government spent 110 billion hryvnia ($7 billion) this year on Naftogaz and plans to cut subsidies to 32 billion hryvnia in 2015.

Yatsenyuk said the subsidy will be lifted if the price of natural gas for households is increased to “market levels.”


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-29/ukraine-parliament-approves-2
015-state-budget-to-unlock-imf-aid.html


WHAT I PREDICTED

Quote:

KIEV ANNOUNCES AUSTERITY
Because of the cutoff of natural gas deliveries and the subsequent price hike, the transitional Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatseniuk, has announced that natural gas subsidies would be cut back significantly. The IMF has insisted, as it has done with most of its governmental loans, that subsidies be cut in order to shore up governmental finances. Yatseniuk, himself a banker and favored by the United States to head the transitional government, has full authority to obtain loans and sign international agreements, according to the EU and the USA.

Gas not cut off, but austerity definitely in the cards. Another part of my prediction:

Quote:

MAIDAN SQUARE ERUPTS AGAIN

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=51008&p=5


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Monday, December 29, 2014 11:27 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


And in addition, some EU members are experiencing "buyer's remorse" with Ukraine


The President of Austria called stupid new sanctions against Russia .... and admitted that Ukraine was more of a fixer-upper than anticipated and will require the combined efforts of the EU AND Russia to solve...

Quote:

The European Union, according to the President of Austria, had overestimated the attractiveness of the offer on Association with Ukraine. According to Fischer, it was necessary to allow Kyiv to build partnership relations with both Europe and Russia. "Only at the last moment it became clear that Ukraine will become a call between the EU proposal and the multi-billion dollar offer from (Russian President) Vladimir Putin," said Fischer


http://newstwenty4seven.com/en/news/prezident-avstrii-nazval-glupostju
-novye-sanktsii-protiv-rossii


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 3:17 PM

THGRRI


Other way around moron. Remember the Rose Revolution in Georgia in 2003? It was due to the same reasons (corruption)that set up the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine in 2004. Corruption and a lack of ties to the rest of Europe that offered better economic possibilities. Due to Russia's attempts at blocking that; then and still to this day, the struggle continues.

Try as hard as you like, even here you cannot rewrite history.

"The susceptibility of Shevardnadze's government and his plummeting popularity between 2000-2003 can partially be traced to economic problems and mismanagement. Beginning in 1998, actual national budget revenues began to fall far short of projections. In 1999, the Georgian state collected only 70% of its projected revenue, a state of affairs that would continue through 2003. To address this problem, the government began to use deceptive accounting techniques to mask budget deficiencies. Shevardnadze's government found itself both starved of funds and unable to meet IMF standards for international loans. The IMF finally suspended its own funding for Georgia in 2002. Without access to international loans, Georgia would not be able to restructure or repay its significant debts".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution

"The Orange Revolution, Ukrainian; was a series of protests and political events that took place in Ukraine from late November 2004 to January 2005, in the immediate aftermath of the run-off vote of the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election which was claimed to be marred by massive corruption, voter intimidation and direct electoral fraud. Kiev, the Ukrainian capital, was the focal point of the movement's campaign of civil resistance, with thousands of protesters demonstrating daily.[5] Nationwide, the democratic revolution was highlighted by a series of acts of civil disobedience, sit-ins, and general strikes organized by the opposition movement".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution




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Monday, December 29, 2014 5:26 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


Signy, I don't think there was a single commentator who predicted that Ukraine would NOT face austerity, or that the Ukrainian population would like it.

It's not personal. It's just war.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 5:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


People said that throwing off the old elected president and embracing the US-Germany approved coup, and facing west to the EU would be an improvement. So far, the exact opposite has happened.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:02 PM

THGRRI


Gee, I wonder why that is 1kiki? Ass.... do you think it might have something to do with Russia sending in tanks to both Georgia and the Ukraine?

You are an absolute joke.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Do you care that Eastern Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom? Or that Kiev is waging illegal actions against those civilians?

Or are you so focused on - yanno - Russia, that you can't even begin to cognate that Russia isn't in this battle?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:11 PM

THGRRI


I think the Russian migrants to Eastern Ukraine are fighting to annex or steal that half of the country at the behest of Putin. Pretty much what everyone else believes. At least those who are not considered Bolsheviks.


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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:13 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, very generally Signy, I've come to a change of ideas. I used to think that national cohesion was a worthy goal. But as I started to think about it more, I started to wonder - why? If people aren't in the same country of their own free will, then they're in it by applied force. And just on general terms, it's hard to argue you're for freedom and democracy if you're not willing to abide by either.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Russian migrants? percent population? percent freedom fighters? and of course, cites?
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:
I think the Russian migrants to Eastern Ukraine are fighting to annex or steal that half of the country at the behest of Putin. Pretty much what everyone else believes. At least those who are not considered Bolsheviks.







SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:33 PM

THGRRI


I love the fact that you end by asking for sites. Everyone who has followed any of the threads about the Ukraine knows there are threads addressing all of this that you and Sig chose to ignore. That said I will waste no more time with you this evening.


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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:35 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, very generally Signy, I've come to a change of ideas. I used to think that national cohesion was a worthy goal. But as I started to think about it more, I started to wonder - why? If people aren't in the same country of their own free will, then they're in it by applied force. And just on general terms, it's hard to argue you're for freedom and democracy if you're not willing to abide by either.



Then we agree, the fucking ungrateful Russians should go home.


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Monday, December 29, 2014 6:39 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


It's Kiev fighting its own citizens in order to maintain national unity - a unity of intentions and goals which does not exist. You're right - Kiev should go home and leave the Eastern Ukrainians to decide their own fate.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 3:49 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens.

Quote:

Signy, I don't think there was a single commentator who predicted that Ukraine would NOT face austerity, or that the Ukrainian population would like it.
Oh, THAT must be why the Rada passed their budget at 4 AM without having even read it! Because "the people" are all for austerity, and Ukraine is all about the will of the people!

Thanks for the history rewrite!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 10:18 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

…SIG
THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens.



All this shows me is that you chose to blow right by two countries tired of corruption and unfruitful ties to Russia who are trying to change,and instead just attack the IMF. Nothing new here. How about Russia pulls it tanks and unruly migrants out of the Ukraine and Georgia and leaves them be.

You ignore the most back facts regarding all of this. Georgia and Ukraine are sovereign nations and can do what they chose. Even if what they chose is a mistake. All your subjective writing will not erase this simple fact.



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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 12:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

THUGR, do you know much about the IMF and how it operates? Because I've been watching it for quite a while now, and I have to say that when the IMF gets a hold of some nation's finances, it NEVER turns out well for the citizens. -SIGNY

All this shows me is that you chose to blow right by two countries tired of corruption and unfruitful ties to Russia who are trying to change,and instead just attack the IMF. Nothing new here. How about Russia pulls it tanks and unruly migrants out of the Ukraine and Georgia and leaves them be.

You ignore the most back facts regarding all of this. Georgia and Ukraine are sovereign nations and can do what they chose. Even if what they chose is a mistake. All your subjective writing will not erase this simple fact. -THUGR


Sometimes I read your posts and I wonder.... what are you taking about???

Russian tanks in Ukraine .... Yanno, KPO and G have been scouring the internet looking for Russian tanks in Ukraine, and they found two. Or maybe three. It's a little hard to keep track because the same tweets show up over and over again. So yeah ... Russia should pull its tanks out of Ukraine [/snicker]. I'm sure that will really make a difference. [/sarcasm]

"Unruly immigrants"??? You mean, people who have been born and raised in an area for several generations are now personae non gratae? No longer citizens of the nation where they and their parents and grandparents were born and raised, but displaced persons? Say, do you believe in ethnic cleansing much?

So, Kiev can do anything it wants those personae non gratae within its borders? Shell them? Starve them? Of course, if it were Russia doing these things, you would be outraged. Outraged, I tell you!



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 12:42 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What this post is about (for those who can't read: looking at YOU, THUGR!) is not about corruption, it's not about Russia, it's about Ukraine's financial ties to the IMF and what good (if any) will come of it.

Yanno, I really think that most of the protesters in the Maidan were looking for a better life. They wanted to be part of Europe, to stroll the boulevards and sip coffee in coffee shops and buy upscale products and live a civilized life. Yeah, they would have liked to get rid of corruption, but somehow I think that electing YET ANOTHER corrupt oligarch (Poroshenko) was not the most effective way to get to that point. It seems that is life in many of the post-Soviet nations: exchanging one oligarch for another. WHich is kind of funny, because I think that describes our elections pretty well, too.

Certainly, yoking yourself to the IMF for even more loans is not the way to a better life. Heck, just remembering all of the other hapless nations that got their blood sucked by the IMF makes me very pessimistic for Ukraine. I think the Ukrainian people were terribly naive. They appeared to be entirely unaware of the economic distress experienced by many eastern and southern European nations: Latvia, Romania, Lithuania, Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Estonia, Macedonia, Poland... all creating immigration headaches for the UK and the Nordic nations, endless female fodder for the slave/sex trade, and thriving child-labor markets in the "under-performing" nations.

That's because only the most efficient manufacturers/ producers can survive in the EU market. There's not a lot of oppty for export, and what there was tended to center on Russian markets for food and small consumer goods, and Chinese markets for German high-tech heavy industry. What they failed to realize is the the EU model is very much like the post-Soviet model: a microscopic number of winners and many, many losers.

What Ukrainians SHOULD have done was what Russia suggested: enter into three-part negotiations which would allow Ukraine to be active in BOTH the EU and the Customs Union with a gradual transition to the EU, and take the Russian $15 billion bond purchase offer. But those Ukrainians with the guns in Maidan had a different agenda, and since they overthrew the Yanukovich government they set this train-wreck in motion. And they're still pushing the train into the wreckage.

The fight against corruption is another matter altogether. That has to be weeded out, and corrupt businessmen and politicians need to be replaced with honest ones. Removing an old structure without a replacement in the wings virtually guarantees that only the most corrupt will rise to power again.

Whatever their agenda is (and I believe there are several at play) the economic well-being of Ukrainians doesn't seem to be in any of them.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 1:15 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

….Sig
Sometimes I read your posts and I wonder.... what are you taking about???
Russian tanks in Ukraine .... Yanno, KPO and G have been scouring the internet looking for Russian tanks in Ukraine, and they found two. Or maybe three.



So they found some then, and if there are tanks than all the support structures must be in place as well. That includes troops, Russian troops. You know, the same troops that shot down the civilian airliner.

Quote:

…Sig
"Unruly immigrants"??? You mean, people who have been born and raised in an area for several generations are now personae non gratae?



Great to see you realize these provinces in Ukraine are not a part of Russia. So why do you continue to excuse Russia’s meddling as though it is lawful? AND why do these same migrants, generations removed from Russia as you claim, believe they and Russia have the right to usurp the territories in the parts of the Ukraine they occupy?

Quote:

….Sig
So, Kiev can do anything it wants to people within its borders? Shell them? Starve them? Of course, if it were Russia doing these things, you would be outraged. Outraged, I tell you!



Funny how you think it is not right for the Ukrainian government to fight insurgents within its borders, yet it is totally acceptable for Russia to cross into Ukraine and start killing people as they dismantle the country. Your false cries of concern for the Ukrainian people would be laughable if it wasn't so grotesque in the way you wield it as cover for Russia's atrocities.



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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 1:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

So they found some then, and if there are tanks than all the support structures must be in place as well
WHAT "support structures"? Tanks need diesel fuel and ammo. They have a crew of three: commander, gunner, and driver. Once those are in place, they're pretty independent, and isn't that kind of the point of tanks- not needing a lot of support structure? Sheesh, pretty soon you'll be talking about those (invisible) WMDs!

Quote:

You know, the same troops that shot down the civilian airliner.
uh huh. And that's my polite response, because at this end, I'm laughing my ass off.

Quote:

Great to see you realize these provinces in Ukraine are not a part of Russia. So why do you continue to excuse Russia’s meddling as though it is lawful?
I didn't say it was lawful, I said it was NEGLIGIBLE. It would be nice if you would learn to read with comprehension. That must be why you joined the military: limited opportunity in the civilian sector.

Quote:

why do these same migrants, generations removed from Russia as you claim, believe they and Russia have the right to usurp the territories in the parts of the Ukraine they occupy?
Well, if you REALLY want to go back into history, Crimea was part of Russia until 1954, when it was given to Ukraine. So how far back to you want to go? 100 years? To 1783? Because that's when Crimea was absorbed by Russia. So if any modern nation has a historic right to Crimea, it's Russia.

Quote:

Funny how you think it is not all right for the Ukrainian government to fight insurgents within its borders, yet it is totally acceptable for Russia to cross into Ukraine and start killing people as they dismantle the country.
You have this fixed idea that somehow the Russian military - under Russian command- are in Ukraine killing thousands of people.

My way of figuring out who is doing what is simply to think about who has killed the most people. In this case, that would be Kiev. So it seems to me that the Kiev government itself has no concern for the well-being of its citizens.

How can you negotiate a peace with your own citizens (if you view them as such) after you've shelled and starved them? And more to the point, how can they negotiate with you?

-------------------------------

In any case, unless some nation comes and rescues Ukraine's ass, the government will be facing yet another ouster in a few years, maybe even a violent one. And I'm looking around, and I don't see many nations willing to step forward with a few trainloads of cash. Germany??? No, they paid for East Germany and they're still struggling to get their $$$ back from Greece. France? Austria? The USA? Ukraine is the economic hot potato that nobody wants to be stuck with. But not to worry: The IMF will save the day! It's no accident that Yatsenyuk the banker and hand-picked USA favorite is still in power in an unelected position as PM. He'll watch out for the IMF's interests!



---------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 4:28 PM

THGRRI


Sorry double post.



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Tuesday, December 30, 2014 4:29 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

…Sig
WHAT "support structures"? Tanks need fuel and ammo. They have a crew of three: commander, gunner, and driver. Once those are in place, they're pretty independent, and isn't that kind of the point of tanks- not needing a lot of support structure? Sheesh, pretty soon you'll be talking about those (invisible) WMDs!



It is now apparent to all who understand how logistics within the military work, that you don’t have a clue. Tanks are usually deployed to support companies or at the very least a platoon. You seem to think they just go off on their own. They would be easy targets for a disciplined army if that were true. They also require a lot of maintenance. Who is to do that?

Quote:

….Me then Sig
You know, the same troops that shot down the civilian airliner.

Sig...uh huh. And that's my polite response, because at this end, I'm laughing my ass off.



As I said in my last post to you. Your false concern for others is grotesque in that you only use it as a tool against others and as a way of deflecting culpability away from Russia.

Quote:

….Me
Great to see you realize these provinces in Ukraine are not a part of Russia. So why do you continue to excuse Russia’s meddling as though it is lawful?



Quote:

….Sig
I didn't say it was lawful, I said it was NEGLIGIBLE. It would be nice if you would learn to read with comprehension. That must be why you joined the military: limited opportunity in the civilian sector.



That’s real progress for you. Admitting the Russians are fighting in Ukraine. It took months of myself and others siting prof to get you to do so. Still it is telling that you insist their presence is negligible with so many people dying and suffering the way they are because of it.

Quote:

….Sig
Well, if you REALLY want to go back into history, Crimea was part of Russia until 1954, when it was given to Ukraine. So how far back to you want to go?



And this is your justification for supporting Russia’s invasion of the Ukraine? What is your justification for supporting Russia’s annexing parts of Georgia?

Crimea and adjacent territories were united in the Crimean Khanate during the 15th to 18th century before falling to the Russian Empire and being organized as its Taurida Oblast in 1783. At this point in time Crimea was declared independent.

What’s my point? Suggesting there is a history between Russia and Ukraine is fine; there is. To research that to understand why people believe what they do is helpful. But to suggest Russia has rights in deciding what occurs within the borders of Ukraine because of their histories takes subjective reasoning. Reasoning based on opinions and feelings rather than on facts, evidence or laws. When it comes to the legality of who has the right to govern within Ukraine’s borders, the Ukrainian’s did not concede those rights to Russia.

Quote:

….Sig
You have this fixed idea that somehow the Russian military - under Russian command- are in Ukraine killing thousands of people.
My way of figuring out who is doing what is simply to think about who has killed the most people. In this case, that would be Kiev. So it seems to me that the Kiev government itself has no concern for the well-being of its citizens.



Of course, this way you to get to place the blame on the Ukrainian government. Your logic and statistics are arrived at subjectively based on what you want to project. If not for Russia’s interference this would have been over long ago.

Quote:

….Sig
In any case, unless some nation comes and rescues Ukraine's ass, the government will be facing yet another ouster in a few years, maybe even a violent one. And I'm looking around, and I don't see many nations willing to step forward with several truckloads of cash. Germany??? No, they paid for East Germany and they're still struggling to get their $$$ back from Greece. France? Austria? The USA? Ukraine is the economic hot potato that nobody wants to be stuck with. But not to worry: It's no accident that Yatsenyuk the banker and hand-picked USA favorite is still in power in an unelected position as PM. He'll watch out for the IMF's interests!



This is nothing more than suggestive speculation, pointless.

Quote:

….Sig
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.



To use this as your signature while defending Russia as it uses bombs and guns in Ukraine is more than a bit ludicrous and makes this claim by you nonsensical.



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Thursday, January 1, 2015 3:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


THUGR, since this thread is about Greece but you apparently just can't resist dragging Ukraine into every possible thread, my response to you here is:
Quote:

What-ever



----------------

According to various Euro wesbsites, Greeks will be treated to a unending shitstream of MSM scaremongering against Syriza. The snap elections will be January 25.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Thursday, January 1, 2015 2:26 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Berlin (AFP) - Europe no longer needs to rescue Greece as the country has lost its "systemic relevance" to the eurozone and its power of political "blackmail," a senior German lawmaker said Wednesday.

Fears of a potential Greek exit from the eurozone have rattled markets since a political crisis in Athens led to early elections, called for late January, in which a leftist anti-austerity party has good prospects of winning, threatening to unwind painful reforms.

Michael Fuchs, deputy parliamentary leader of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives, suggested the idea of Greece breaching its commitments to creditors and eventually leaving the single currency bloc was no longer a doomsday scenario.

"The situation is entirely different than three years ago," Fuchs told the Rheinische Post daily.

"The times when we had to rescue Greece are over. There is no potential for blackmail anymore. Greece is no longer of systemic relevance for the euro."

He stressed that "if Alexis Tsipras of the Greek leftist party Syriza believes he can roll back the reform efforts and savings measures of Greece, then the troika will also have to roll back the loans for Greece".

Syriza, currently the front-runner in polls, has pledged to unwind many of the reforms imposed by the so-called "troika" of the International Monetary Fund, European Union and European Central Bank -- by cutting taxes and increasing state aid and public services.

Greek Prime Minister Antonis Samaras warned Tuesday that the financially-stricken nation may be forced out of the eurozone if the election is won by Syriza.

The European Union has renewed its calls on Greeks to stick by the often painful reforms adopted as part of a massive international bailout for the eurozone member state.

http://news.yahoo.com/eurozone-no-longer-rescue-greece-german-mp-16162
5716.html



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Monday, February 20, 2017 4:44 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

After seven years of bailouts, Greeks sink yet deeper in poverty
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-poverty-idUSKBN15Z1N
M



Quote:

German Minister Calls For 'Plan B': "Greece Should Pledge Gold, Real Estate For New Loans" http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-02-20/german-minister-calls-plan-b-
greece-should-pledge-gold-real-estate-new-loans



Because the globalists are your friends, in addition to being your loan sharks.





-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Monday, February 20, 2017 5:18 PM

DREAMTROVE


Oh what a self defeatist idea for the west

All that will happen if they bury Ukraine in debt is the Kremlin will offer to bail them out. And we lose again. This is a stupid conflict we shouldn't be fighting. It is very much as if China had decided that it wanted to get a foothold in N. America by taking over an independent Quebec. It's a doomed plan. We wouldn't invade, but there would be no way for that situation to end well for the Chinese.


Edit:

Sig,

Na, it's about Ukraine, you start out with a post about Ukraine.

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Monday, February 20, 2017 5:43 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yep, you're right. I couldn't find the old thread about Greece. My bad! I jacked my own thread!



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake


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Monday, February 20, 2017 6:07 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Oh what a self defeatist idea for the west

All that will happen if they bury Ukraine in debt is the Kremlin will offer to bail them out. And we lose again. This is a stupid conflict we shouldn't be fighting. It is very much as if China had decided that it wanted to get a foothold in N. America by taking over an independent Quebec. It's a doomed plan. We wouldn't invade, but there would be no way for that situation to end well for the Chinese.


Edit:

Sig,

Na, it's about Ukraine, you start out with a post about Ukraine.



What's the worry? Trumps going to fix everything

---------------------


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Tuesday, February 21, 2017 10:07 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by DREAMTROVE:
Oh what a self defeatist idea for the west

All that will happen if they bury Ukraine in debt is the Kremlin will offer to bail them out. And we lose again. This is a stupid conflict we shouldn't be fighting. It is very much as if China had decided that it wanted to get a foothold in N. America by taking over an independent Quebec. It's a doomed plan. We wouldn't invade, but there would be no way for that situation to end well for the Chinese.


Edit:

Sig,

Na, it's about Ukraine, you start out with a post about Ukraine.



GDP United States $17.95 trillion USD (2015) vs. Russian Federation · GDP (current US$) $1.33 trillion USD (2015)

I think we can afford it. To not assist means we will pay a much higher bill later. And hey, how about we criticize the aggressor here and not everyone else.
---------------------


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Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:31 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Mitsotakis calls out Turkey's "fence sitting" over Ukraine war, says Greece won't send Leopard 2 tanks
https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/01/31/mitsotakis-calls-out-turkeys-ukr
aine
/

Russia on Relations With Greece: “We Used to Be Friends”
https://greekreporter.com/2023/01/24/russia-greece-friends-no-more/
quote
Russia “used to be friends with Greece” until Athens submitted to “American demands,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov

Greece slams Turkey for not sanctioning Russia
https://www.teletrader.com/greece-slams-turkey-for-not-sanctioning-rus
sia/news/details/59368946



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Thursday, June 20, 2024 8:54 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Greece Implements Six-Day Work Week Starting July 1
https://greekcitytimes.com/2024/06/20/greece-six-day-work-week

Greece Plans Early Repayment of €8 Billion in Bailout Loans
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-12/greece-plans-early-
repayment-of-8-billion-in-bailout-loans

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