Privilege in the United States by RiveR6213

In general, I believe whites still have the advantages coming from financial advantage; ie: family making life easier for the next generation.

I think we have seen some improvements over time; and as this continues, I hope we can move to a more color blind approach/attitude and simply work on solving poverty in the US.

That's not to say that we have eliminated race based discrimination. Living in the North (NY State) it's easy to turn a blind eye to that aspect, as there isn't much in the way of -blatent- racial discrimination; the news out of New Orleans at the flood was a sad reminder that under stress (at least) racism still raises its ugly head.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 3:11 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I would just like to bring up the point that every fight with a black guy vs. a white guy at UFC 71, the black guy won.

Jackson beat Lidell.... LIDELL. Lidell's been undefeated for longer than I can remember. What disadvantages black people have, they appear to be getting over them.

[IMG]

Ride down from Asgard to the battlefield,
Bringer of the valiant dead who died but never yielded,
Carry we who die in battle over land and sea,
Across the rainbow bridge to Valhalla,
Odin's waiting for me.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 3:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kaneman:
"There are an awful lot of rich "white" men."

I also see a lot of rich "black" men. Don't believe me? [...]

Don't watch MTV myself; however, not that this especially excuses the behavior, but take any poor person who has had to fight thier way out of poverty, particularly in the -method- these fellows have, and I don't expect much better behavior than that. There have been cases of Baseball players of many races, white included, who didn't do much better, and keep in mind the MLB actively tries to manage player's images. Heck, look at what fame and money did for Britney Spears, for that matter (and in this case, I don't know, nor especially care, what her family financial 'background' is).

I work at a major computer services company; and I've seen any number of persons of color prosper there. There is a growing middle and upper class, and they are as decently behaved as anyone else; in my experience.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 5:09 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Power in the Western world tends to revolve around education. And in the US education is... expensive. So, if statistically speaking a certain part of society is impoverished, they'll probably have a hard time climbing that ladder.

So, given the current situation, I'd say yes. But, not for the nefarious reasons that you seem to be implying.

After all, when's the last time you saw someone with a PhD going around gang-banging.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 28, 2007 5:55 AM

SIRI

I am of the opinion that privilege is connected to money, education, gender, race, although I'm not sure in what order. Privilege and entitlement are taken for granted and expected for some much more than others. Doors open more easily for those in power who want to keep it. While I do not know exact stats, from what I've seen and read the disparity between the very wealthy and those at the bottom is widening.

As previously stated, people do "fight their way out of poverty" and sustain some degree of wealth. For others it's more of an expectation that they'll "make it." That sounds a whole lot like privilege and/or entitlement to me. Where does parity fit in? I've been exploring how that word differs from equality. We can't all be equal or we would be some sort of robot race. But can we come to build and develop parity? What would that look like and how does it fit with privilege?

Thanks for bringing up another touchy subject for Memorial Day. If we see the part we play in it (injustice) we have to either accept, act or ignore it. I suspect with this bunch viewpoints will be all over the map.

Siri

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:31 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Siri:
As previously stated, people do "fight their way out of poverty" and sustain some degree of wealth. For others it's more of an expectation that they'll "make it."

All that this sounds like to me is that for the people that have it or are in the gutter, it's fairly easy to maintain and for those climbing the ladder, it rather hard. Also, for those that have already made it, it's difficult to fall. All this in general of course.

But, simply put, there is wealth inertia.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:40 AM

SIRI

Quote:
... But, simply put, there is wealth inertia...

Wealth inertia or status quo. It's simpler and frequently less painful to maintain what is than risk change or to look at our part in maintaining the status quo.

Yes, these are generalities but they can lead us to question and begin to make changes. I think it is a long, slow process. We start, we risk, we change, then we stop and wait for the next wave to hit us.

Siri

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Monday, May 28, 2007 8:20 AM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
posted by yinyang- If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

just an observation from your quote= i dont believe we are entitled to any right that is absent a corresponding responsibility. we have the right to bear arms, or drink alcohol, but its our duty to do each responsibly. however with some things, like abortion, or prostitution.. those are rights we should not have, because they seem to negate the responsibility aspect altogether. my point being is that i believe the infiltration of secular ideology in western society to be responsible for the loss of this morally fundemental tenet

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Monday, May 28, 2007 10:06 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Siri:

Wealth inertia or status quo. It's simpler and frequently less painful to maintain what is than risk change or to look at our part in maintaining the status quo.

I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle.

The fact that the rich tend to stay rich isn't just because they are rich. It's because the rich have access to the best prep-schools and the best Universities. It is not because they are entitled to them, but because they can afford them.

The poor don't stay poor because people wish to keep a status quo. The poor stay poor because they can't afford a proper education. That and they are always in "survival mode" because they can't get higher paying jobs because they have little to no education i.e. no-one who is in the dregs of society has the time to think about improving themselves because they are constantly thinking where that next meal is coming from, where next months rent is coming from, etc.

30 Days did an episode on this subject that was quite enlightening. I suggest you keep an eye out for it:

http://www.tv.com/30-days/minimum-wage/episode/425972/summary.html?tag
=ep_list;ep_title;0

Quote:
Originally posted by Siri:

Yes, these are generalities but they can lead us to question and begin to make changes. I think it is a long, slow process. We start, we risk, we change, then we stop and wait for the next wave to hit us.

There's a problem with this thought that can be summarized in a common saying:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Basically, there are tonnes of jobs out there that are suitable for someone who grew up poor. That is, a poor person who completes high-school; respect for education is key.

Some of them are, garbage man, janitor and a bus driver. And with one or two years at a community college, the trades. Also, while working one of these jobs, they could save to go to night school to further improve themselves. Then when these people have kids, they are starting off on a higher rug on the social ladder, live in a better neighbourhood, have access to better resources, etc.

But, the rub is that one has to want to AND be willing to work for it AND be willing to sacrifice for it. You solve those problems and goodness will follow. Somehow though, I doubt that this will be solved anytime soon as the poor have a tendency to keep those with potential down with them. Quite a vicious cycle.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Monday, May 28, 2007 10:34 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by antimason:
Quote:
posted by yinyang- If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

just an observation from your quote= i dont believe we are entitled to any right that is absent a corresponding responsibility. we have the right to bear arms, or drink alcohol, but its our duty to do each responsibly. however with some things, like abortion, or prostitution.. those are rights we should not have, because they seem to negate the responsibility aspect altogether. my point being is that i believe the infiltration of secular ideology in western society to be responsible for the loss of this morally fundemental tenet

Haha... that is so not what the quote is about. To clear up your confusion, in the book (and real life), Jeff is the character that gets fired from his job for being gay.

As far as "infiltration of secular ideology," I agree with you to a point. I think that the type of ideologies (consumerism, celebrity worship, views on sex, etc.) are the reason that we seem to be going down the drain. But, I do not believe secular ideology in general is a bad thing; and, even if it was, I'd much prefer it over a quasi-theocracy. (Not against religion, just the abuses religious governments tend to have, historically-speaking.)

Of course, that is not the subject of this thread, and neither is it a conversation I'm interested in continuing. Therefore, /tangent

---

"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

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Monday, May 28, 2007 10:46 AM

ANTIMASON

Quote:
yinyang -Haha... that is so not what the quote is about. To clear up your confusion, in the book (and real life), Jeff is the character that gets fired from his job for being gay.

i understood that, although i wasnt quite sure the relevance of the quote. what is meant by "right to hate"? i was commenting on the constitution and how these things are interpreted

Quote:
Of course, that is not the subject of this thread, and neither is it a conversation I'm interested in continuing. Therefore, /tangent

i wasnt trying to hijack the thread.. i was simply making a comment about your quote

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Monday, May 28, 2007 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
White Privilege in the United States, Is it true or not? Do we have an advantage because of our race, or color? Is this the original Affirmative Action? What do you think about it?

I consider myself to be fairly privileged. I’m privileged with a sense of self-confidence and a desire to improve myself. The stereotype of a wealthy person is one who is stuck up and snobbish, but that’s an unfortunate stereotype. The mechanism behind that is just self-respect, so that stereotype demonizes self-respect. Furthermore, popular culture tends to look for scapegoats for poverty. It’s the “Man” keeping you done. And even more unfortunate is that popular culture tends to glorify criminal lifestyles. The reason why the poor stay poor in the United States has more to do with a lack of self-respect then with a lack of money. In other countries, that might not be the case, but in the United States, typically poor people do not have to stay poor, and on average a person who is poor today will not be in ten years if that person applies themselves. That’s the benefit of living in a wealthy country. They will however have to work their way out of poverty and that will require a lot of confidence in oneself. You can’t paint this with a broad brush. For some it will be easier and others it will be harder, but the principle weapon against poverty in the United States is, as it has been for many years, hard work.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with providing these hard workers some government help. I’m all for that, but government entitlements can quickly become a source of dependency that erodes the positive and principled attitudes that are the real key to success. So the benefit to society from government help reaches a maximum and then begins dropping off very quickly. The key is to keep it at that maximum and not overdo it.

As far as an advantage due to race? That depends, if being white means that you won’t identify with the ‘Gangsta’ culture, then yes, you might have an advantage. The solution to that is for the majority of intelligent people in this country to stand up and decry this unhealthy attitude, not to institute government sanctioned racism.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, May 28, 2007 2:23 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

TV Nation had a telling segment:

Quote:
It included an investigation into whether it was easier for a white felon or a distinguished black actor to get a taxi in New York. TV Nation hired Louie Bruno, a white man who'd done time in four different prisons, and Yaphet Kotto, a highly successful black actor, to test New York's taxi drivers.

As a native New Yorker, Kotto probably wouldn't have been at all surprised by the outcome. Although a few cabbies stopped for him, the majority sped past to pick up Bruno, waiting a little further down the road. When this happened, Bruno asked the driver to take him a short distance to where a TV Nation crew was waiting to ask the driver why Kotto had been ignored. The driver would usually either claim not to have seen the actor, or say that he thought Kotto looked threatening; but the same thing happened even when Kotto tried to hail a cab while holding a baby and a bunch of flowers.:

What they didn't mention here was that the black actor was very well groomed and well dressed in an conservative suit, vest and tie; while the white ex-con was scruffy and had on dirty jeans and a denim jacket with the sleeves cut off (if memory serves me).

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Monday, May 28, 2007 4:10 PM

Quote:
What they didn't mention here was that the black actor was very well groomed and well dressed in an conservative suit

Depending on the situation, that mighta been the problem...

I don't like "suits", they tip poorly and have snarky attitudes, and given a choice, I only deal with them when driving the Executive Transport. (upgraded luxury car we charge a premium for)

In a regular fleet cab, between the two, I generally grab the guy who looks like he *needs* a ride as a matter of principle and cause I empathise with him, he's closer to me, cause most cabbies live almost hand to mouth don't ya know, especially what with fuel cost these days.

The only outright racist guy we ever hired, and that more or less unknowing - he lasted less than a day, cause we fired him on the spot for refusing a pickup and I went and took his cab and his run and made his ass walk from there.

I think in some of that experiment, there might have been less of an issue with race than empathy, most of the guys I work with don't much like "suits" neither, just as a matter of jealousy and bitterness about being lower in the social and economic ladder, so without knowing the mindset of a cabbie, they might be misperceiving some of the reasoning.

Not sayin some of em DIDN'T pass him by due to race considerations, just sayin that was not the only likely factor, and wearing a suit is kind of a backfire when trying to empathise with poor cabbies.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Monday, May 28, 2007 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
TV Nation had a telling segment:
Quote:
It included an investigation into whether it was easier for a white felon or a distinguished black actor to get a taxi in New York. TV Nation hired Louie Bruno, a white man who'd done time in four different prisons, and Yaphet Kotto, a highly successful black actor, to test New York's taxi drivers.

As a native New Yorker, Kotto probably wouldn't have been at all surprised by the outcome. Although a few cabbies stopped for him, the majority sped past to pick up Bruno, waiting a little further down the road. When this happened, Bruno asked the driver to take him a short distance to where a TV Nation crew was waiting to ask the driver why Kotto had been ignored. The driver would usually either claim not to have seen the actor, or say that he thought Kotto looked threatening; but the same thing happened even when Kotto tried to hail a cab while holding a baby and a bunch of flowers.:
What they didn't mention here was that the black actor was very well groomed and well dressed in an conservative suit, vest and tie; while the white ex-con was scruffy and had on dirty jeans and a denim jacket with the sleeves cut off (if memory serves me).

What you seem to be talking about here is "automatic assumption" meaning stereo typing. I don't know the whole number but I think that there are about 38+ million black people in the United States, and out of that 38+ million people, there are around 8 or 9 million that are not subscribing to the idea of the so-called "American Dream" or at least subscribing to it in the way we arrogantly think they should be subscribing to it. This 8 or 9 million seem to be out for their own gain, also, this 8 or 9 million represent the gangster-rap groups, and the so-called ghetto, ebonic speaking groups. Now this is where the fun begins... The media focuses on this particular group and give them plenty of air time on the television, and radio stations. This particular group seems to be very good at promoting themselves because our television is full of their music, their style of dress, their manner of speaking, and a world view. What that world view is has never been made clear, but my point is that this group gets some serious exposure, and is being called by the media as "Black culture." They say that this defines the whole culture. White America sees this and says "Wow! This must be Black culture" and assumes that all that gang-banging, robbing, murder, baggy pants wearing, calling their women "hoes" is what ALL black people do. Most Black people don't engage in any crime. Most black people are buying their homes,working their jobs, and raising their children, and never really done anything to anyone, and pretty much mind their own business, but they get to take blame for the criminal element out there. End result is that a Black programmer goes to the store at night to pick up a pack of smokes and maybe some beer, and the people in the store immediatly assumes that he is a threat even before he opens up his mouth. A black woman goes to a Walmart and is followed by security because it is already assumed that she might steal something. A black man waving down a taxi gets passed by because it is already assumed that he might try to rob the cab, or at least tip bad. We seem to be doing a lot of assuming in this culture.

This topic was, and is not about Black people at all, but I noticed that the people here kept using Black people as the template in which to measure society by in this discussion, so I thought I would toss in my bit for King and Country.

My point in the beginning of this topic was this: The fact that we have white skin automatically gives us certain privileges over all the other races here in America. Most of the time we are taken at our word. People assume that we are straight dealing, and hard working. People assume we are telling the truth. People assume that we didn't steal something. We are innocent until proven guilty, but any other race, especially the black race is guilty until proven innocent. This is what I have learned and seen in this culture and no one can tell me anything different. The whole situation is not rational, but it is about power. White privilege is about maintaining the power structure.

Automatic assumptions nurtured by the media, and sometimes nurtured by our own experiences. Some white guy gets beat up by a black guy when he was 10 and suddenly ALL black people are no good. Your house gets robbed and it is automatically assumed that a black guy did it, and on and on it goes.

In certain ways white privilege is all some whites have especially the poor whites, and this is exactly what politicians count on and use during election time. I am woefully aware of it every time I leave my home. I don't know how many times I've seen this:

You are in a store waiting in a line along with some other people to pay for some item you have. The 1st person steps up and the clerk says "How may I help you." The second person steps up to the clerk and he says "What can I do for you?" The Black person steps up to the clerk and the clerk says in an impatient manner "Yes? What!?" I've seen this over and over and what's funny is, is that everyone around me pretends not to notice.

We have all been brain-washed.

But enough about making this issue all about black people. This topic is about White privilege and I have yet to see an answer to it let alone an actual discussion.

-River

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
This is what I have learned and seen in this culture and no one can tell me anything different.

And that sounds like a preconceived notions you’re protecting, not an actual assessment of society.

The media does frame the way we see things and the AfricanAmerican culture doesn’t always benefit the good names of the majority of AfricanAmericans in this country, but I think you’re taking it to a bit of a dramatic extreme that actually is a bit racist itself. It’s just as racist to claim that all white people are racist because they are white, which is essentially what you’re saying. That’s just as much an automatic assumption. I don’t know if that is a product of the drama or an actual sentiment, but from your stated unwillingness to hear any opposing opinions, it sounds like a sentiment to me.

Certainly the White culture benefits from its majority status, but whether or not a white person is viewed with a presumption of innocence depends a lot on whose doing the viewing. Contrary to the assumptions made about white people, racism is not a purely “white” phenomenon. And I would say that there is actually far less racism, on average, among white people then other ethnics groups in the US simply because White people are under the microscope, as it were, with regard to racism. AfricanAmerican culture gets away with blatantly racist statements, from musicians and activists, that would never be tolerated from white culture, because the assumption is, as absurd as it sounds, that black people can’t be racist.

So the story is not quite as one-sided as you portray it.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
This is what I have learned and seen in this culture and no one can tell me anything different.
And that sounds like a preconceived notions you’re protecting, not an actual assessment of society.

The media does frame the way we see things and the AfricanAmerican culture doesn’t always benefit the good names of the majority of AfricanAmericans in this country, but I think you’re taking it to a bit of a dramatic extreme that actually is a bit racist itself. It’s just as racist to claim that all white people are racist because they are white, which is essentially what you’re saying. That’s just as much an automatic assumption. I don’t know if that is a product of the drama or an actual sentiment, but from your stated unwillingness to hear any opposing opinions, it sounds like a sentiment to me.

Certainly the White culture benefits from its majority status, but whether or not a white person is viewed with a presumption of innocence depends a lot on whose doing the viewing. Contrary to the assumptions made about white people, racism is not a purely “white” phenomenon. And I would say that there is actually far less racism, on average, among white people then other ethnics groups in the US simply because White people are under the microscope, as it were, with regard to racism. AfricanAmerican culture gets away with blatantly racist statements, from musicians and activists, that would never be tolerated from white culture, because the assumption is, as absurd as it sounds, that black people can’t be racist.

So the story is not quite as one-sided as you portray it.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

Actually it is. The truth however painful it is is still the truth. I'm not going to mix it up with you regarding this. I'm right and I know it. Argue with someone else. I'll just read the comments and opinions and leave the maintaining of the power structure to you.

-River

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Actually it is. The truth however painful it is is still the truth. I'm not going to mix it up with you regarding this. I'm right and I know it.

Yep.

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Monday, May 28, 2007 6:46 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

A first, Finn himself agrees - white people have a higher level of privilege in the US: "Certainly the White culture benefits from its majority status".

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Monday, May 28, 2007 11:47 PM

One quick note, in Re: gangsta rappers.

You have people who grew up in a hostile, immoral, aggressive, ruthless and downright LETHAL environment, and then act surprised when those who survive and make it good turn out to be hostile, aggressive, immoral and ruthless ?

When you have a harsh environment, you're gonna get harsh people - I think sixstringjack and myself are somewhat of an example of this even here.

And no, i'm not excusing it, especially disrespect of women - although in that environment most of the women you run into will exploit you just as fast if not faster than men, leading to some obvious ill will goin on there, just sayin that those perceptions are formented in a harsh cruicible of fire and tend to cling to a person long after they've climbed out.

Eminem is a good example of this, I respect the guy some even if I can't stand him, but I also pity him cause he cannot seem to overcome his youth and will probably be "damaged goods" for life - and I can see why, for I myself lived on 8mile as well, in a sleazy trailer park, till I made it good and moved to this freakin mayberry RFD town I live in now, seeing that environment from pointblank range will being it in loud and clear how and why those folks are so messed up when they finally do climb out - some wounds never heal, some ghosts never stop haunting you, and the high price of that climb is something you never, EVER forget.

Just sayin, not excusing - you wanna put an end to it, you have to *understand* it, these folks don't come out to be that way in a vacuum you know, environment plays a huge factor.

As for respect of society, societys front line of status quo defense is law enforcement, and consider their conduct in that I will defy you to find a single ghetto blaster with a positive opinion of em... there's a lotta factors, beyond just race, that apply in such things.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
We have all been brain-washed.

But enough about making this issue all about black people. This topic is about White privilege and I have yet to see an answer to it let alone an actual discussion.

-River

First, let me say I agree with most of what you've said. It makes me very glad I don't watch most of the drivle put out by the media.

Not living in NYC, I cannot say I've seen any blatent racism in a fair while.

But you say this isn't what you were hoping to see discussed...However, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to talk about white privilege -without- pulling in some points regarding how other races are treated.

I'm willing to grant some white privilege still exists (more than I'd prefer); and it is my opinion it is a matter which is improving over time. Having said that, it's not clear how I can discuss it more without getting into references to other races, how they perceived, etc.

Edit to add: I believe -most- of the "gansta rap" behavior / problem is not race based, but poverty based. As I mentioned above, in my area, I see a solid growth in middle/upper middle class amongst people of color; and as I said, these people are as decent as any other.

====
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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:49 AM

These children do grow up in a violent environment, but many of them also grow up in this environment admiring the racist, hateful and violent lyrics of gangsta rappers and envying the wealth these idiot rappers blame on that lifestyle. As a result these children are predisposed to acting out that violence in their neighborhood, and thereby perpetuating it. We see the same thing among Palestinian children who are groomed to be violent. It’s not a question of understanding it. I understand it just fine. There’s never going to be an end to the crime of urban landscapes, but that doesn’t mean we should tolerate this exacerbating influences.

I have absolutely no respect or sympathy for Eminem. None. I couldn’t muster it if I tried. Why should I? Because he came from a poor neighborhood in Detroit? A lot of people come from poor neighborhoods all over, but unlike him they don’t rise out of the street by perpetuating this stereotype of hate that aggravates that very problem. What I find impressive are those that pull themselves off the street and do something meaningful with their lives. I had a friend who grew up not far from 8-mile; he lived in violent poverty just like everyone there. But he grew up and went to medical school, and is now an MD. Personally, I think we should be glamorizing his lifestyle. I think he is a much better example for poor inner-city youth to look up to, then some dickwad raping about faggots and hos.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 3:41 AM

Quote:
I had a friend who grew up not far from 8-mile; he lived in violent poverty just like everyone there. But he grew up and went to medical school, and is now an MD. Personally, I think we should be glamorizing his lifestyle.

Somebody pinch me, Finn finally said something I can fully agree with.

As for the rappers, I don't like what they do neither, but the truth is that whether we LIKE it or not, those thugs actually made it out - and that percentage is way bigger than the former idols, basketball players, considerin how far out of their reach that college scholarship is these days... they're the only ones reaching back in and throwing a life raft to these kids.

THAT is wrong, we need folks like your MD throwing these kids a rope too, knowledge is power, and I am part of a small group of former ghetto kids who does reach back in and find the toughest, strongest and smartest.. and throw em a rope, give em a chance to climb the wall, and no not all of em take it, but each one who does takes the Oath, and has to pull three more out behind him to break even with us.

The Church of Lost Children isn't big enough to make a real long-lasting social impact, but it sure beats doin nothin.

-Frem
PS. And no, for those who may have heard of it here and there - CoTL isn't an urban myth, it really does exist, but never, ever, ever in an official capacity, because there's more to it than that, and you can't crush a fistfull of smoke.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:52 AM

What these two folks said /\.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 8:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by leadb:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
We have all been brain-washed.

But enough about making this issue all about black people. This topic is about White privilege and I have yet to see an answer to it let alone an actual discussion.

-River

First, let me say I agree with most of what you've said. It makes me very glad I don't watch most of the drivle put out by the media.

But you say this isn't what you were hoping to see discussed...However, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to talk about white privilege -without- pulling in some points regarding how other races are treated.

Very true, but I have seen from the past in topics like this people seem to get hung up on discussing the treatment of other races that are not white here in the USA, and if it continues people start to get defensive, and start acting like someone is blaming them for something. I just thought I would point out what the topic title was as a reminder that its about White Privilege. I myself sort of see white privilege as an unspoken, original Affirmative Action without all the nasty business of having it actually be a law in the books. We who are white benefit from this in big and small ways everyday.

Also, a lot of whites have difficulty in discussing this subject because we never really had to think about it, where as many people of color see it around them all the time. They may tell you that it doesn't exist too your face, but they know it's there and they see it. Mind you that this sort of nonesense is repeated in other countries so relax, we aren't the only ones who makes assumptions about our own value. If this were China or Germany, or Africa, and you just happened to be a minority living there you would see the majority people being treated with a certain privilege that won't be, or grudgingly be extended to you. And the fun part is those very same people who are part of the majority, most of them won't be aware that they are crusing about in their life protected in some cases by a form of social Affirmative Action.

In the United States before the Affirmative Action of the 60s came into being, there was the original Affirmative Action meaning for white males only, and the reason for that is because human beings don't know how to share power, or behave themselves, which is why these laws have to be put in place.

Oh, well. With that said I'm going to go back to work.

Have a nice day.

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:13 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Thanks River.

I think most white people never realize how much they get just by being white. I think it would be educational for people to be made up as Black or Hispanic for a week, and try to get an apartment, a job, a car.

There was a study a LONG time ago published by US News and World Report. It compared education level to job level and found that a Black male needed 'some college' to get the same job as a White male with a 8th grade education. Their conclusion ? Education is the key to Blacks improving their lives !

The blinders the more privildged have are still on.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:56 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
White Privilege in the United States, Is it true or not? Do we have an advantage because of our race, or color? Is this the original Affirmative Action?

Orgional?
Far from. Truth is, racism is a facet of our lifestyle, and has been for... lessee... some two thousand or so years. Give or take, of course.
From Roman times, people of white skin have been enslaving non-whites (And other white folks, as well). So if your looking for a person to blame, try Romulous.
Either or, the idea that one person is better than another because their skin is paler is a pervasive element in our society; has been since Spain first came in and obliterated the Aztec and Inca Empires. Fact is, we as a nation are still getting used to the distinct lack of Segregation and Jim Crow.
Now, being as I live in Farmingville, Blacks make up about 5% of the population. A more prevelant minority would be the Mexicans, namely, the Illegal ones.
Now, throughout most of my realizing that folks were different on account a their skin tone, I heard that (And I quote), "Those fucking lazy ass Beaners is taking up all of the jobs!"
Bull.
The only reason that folks come to America is to start a new, and (Hopefully), better life. An illegal alien comes in, and, Lo and Behold!, there are jobs, low paying but jobs nonetheless. Jobs what used to be taken up by teens and suchlike, but not so much anymore. But, when someone else who is simply not white, MY GOD!!!! Sound the drums and call in the bloody cavalry, it's an Invasion to take away all the jobs that we don't do!
How ever will we survive?
Oh, and a note on Affirmative Action- Historically, ever since it first started, the biggest beneficiaries of it have been WHITE WOMEN, turning the American Job market (Discluding such things like fast food and minimum wage stuff) from a White Fraternity to a mostly white Party, with other such folk looking on. Three hundred years of tradition is hard to beat. (If I can find a link to the statistics I mentioned, then I'll drop a link).

-Danny

A Ghost is all that's Left,
Of everything we Swore we Never would Forget,
Tried to bleed the Sickness,
But we drained our Hearts instead,
We are... We are the DEAD!!!!!!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!

I LIKE CHEESE!!!

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Alliethorn7:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
White Privilege in the United States, Is it true or not? Do we have an advantage because of our race, or color? Is this the original Affirmative Action?

Orgional?
Far from. Truth is, racism is a facet of our lifestyle, and has been for... lessee... some two thousand or so years. Give or take, of course.
From Roman times, people of white skin have been enslaving non-whites (And other white folks, as well). So if your looking for a person to blame, try Romulous.
Either or, the idea that one person is better than another because their skin is paler is a pervasive element in our society; has been since Spain first came in and obliterated the Aztec and Inca Empires. Fact is, we as a nation are still getting used to the distinct lack of Segregation and Jim Crow.
Now, being as I live in Farmingville, Blacks make up about 5% of the population. A more prevelant minority would be the Mexicans, namely, the Illegal ones.
Now, throughout most of my realizing that folks were different on account a their skin tone, I heard that (And I quote), "Those fucking lazy ass Beaners is taking up all of the jobs!"
Bull.
The only reason that folks come to America is to start a new, and (Hopefully), better life. An illegal alien comes in, and, Lo and Behold!, there are jobs, low paying but jobs nonetheless. Jobs what used to be taken up by teens and suchlike, but not so much anymore. But, when someone else who is simply not white, MY GOD!!!! Sound the drums and call in the bloody cavalry, it's an Invasion to take away all the jobs that we don't do!
How ever will we survive?
Oh, and a note on Affirmative Action- Historically, ever since it first started, the biggest beneficiaries of it have been WHITE WOMEN, turning the American Job market (Discluding such things like fast food and minimum wage stuff) from a White Fraternity to a mostly white Party, with other such folk looking on. Three hundred years of tradition is hard to beat. (If I can find a link to the statistics I mentioned, then I'll drop a link).

-Danny

True and also you might also like to add that the biggest beneficiaries of the United States welfare system is white people, but we have all been condition to think of black people when the welfare system is ever mentioned.

I wasn't thinking about White privilege as racism, but now that you brought it up isn't White privilege a form of racism? I notice that we whites in the news, in books, and on the radio claiming that Black people are always screaming about racism. If I were to go by what every white I've ever heard say in the media, I would have to believe that there is not one white racist in all of America. We whites seriously believe that we are not racist and that the racism that our fathers and mothers demonstrated in the past is IN the past. Another benefit of White privilege I suspect. If you get enough people that believe that the moon doesnt exists I guess it ceases to exist.

strange planet with its strange people if you ask me.

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:19 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Whites have more privilege, as do males, the middle aged, the educated, and the wealthy. What happens is that every category of person starts from a baseline assumption. So we are shocked when a wealthy, educated, middle-aged male turns out to be a crazed bankrobber because our expectations have been overturned, and we would be equally surprised (and perhaps suspicious) to find out that a poor, black male turns out to be a genuinely sensitive, repsonsible, well-educated person.

People are treated differently based on these assumptions. Women are treated differently then men by scientific review committees, car salesmen and auto mechanics. (There was a good article about a woman transgender scientist who experienced both). Blacks are treated differently on loan applications, apartment rentals, and car and home sales- even blacks with good credit ratings. This happens even over the phone: if the caller sounds "black" they will be turned down more often than people of the same credit rating and background. (Determined by a survey conducted by actors.)

Basically, whites are given more "leeway" in day to day interactions: when driving or jogging thru a neighborhood, when calling a teacher about an assignment, buying a car, etc. etc etc.

It's not impossible to sink below that level or to rise above it. But that kind of movement requires that you be known by your deeds- in other words, after you become personally known to others and have had a chance to break down their assumptions. But each new encounter is going to bring with it the same stereotypes as before.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Blacks are treated differently on loan applications, apartment rentals, and car and home sales- even blacks with good credit ratings. This happens even over the phone: if the caller sounds "black" they will be turned down more often than people of the same credit rating and background. (Determined by a survey conducted by actors.)

So there are no black people working in banks? No black property owners? No black car dealers or mortgage brokers?

Quote:
Basically, whites are given more "leeway" in day to day interactions: when driving or jogging thru a neighborhood, when calling a teacher about an assignment, buying a car, etc. etc etc.

Which neighbourhoods? Predominantly white or predominantly black.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 11:54 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Did I say "no" or "none" anywhere? Learn to read. Since non-blacks make up about 92% of the entire population... and whites make up a disproportionate number of people in economic power... that comprises the vast majority of black economic/ monetary experience.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:00 PM

You said Blacks have trouble getting loans, apartments, etc., you did not say most Blacks. Perhaps my problem is I read too well.

Just disregard the points I brought up if they undermine your cherished ideals.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:14 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

No, blacks have more trouble buying cars, or getting loans and apartments etc. than whites. They tend to be turned down more often or are charged higher rates. There have been plenty of surveys where the same application was turned in by two sets of people who have the same background (income, credit rating, family size, history etc.) where once the evaluator found out the couple was black the results were less favorable. This is by direct head-to-head comparison with the same bank officer, landlord etc. separated by (in some cases) a mere few minutes.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:17 PM

Truly disturbing..., got any links?

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:20 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

This is just the latest. (LA) I've seen this done so many times thru the years I've lost track of all of them.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:XdN8iZ02LcoJ:www.examiner.com/a-69
3796~Survey__Blacks_Face_Housing_Bias_in_N_O_.html+blacks+rental+survey&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Here's another (CA)
http://www.pww.org/article/view/6022/1/238/

And another. Nassau County (NY)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DF133DF931A15751C
0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

Aw hell, just google "black rent survey tester", you'll find a bunch.
---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:27 PM

Thanks SignyM. I know we should strive to be better than others but I can't help but think how the reverse would be true if a white person tried to rent an apartment in say Zimbabwe.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
You said Blacks have trouble getting loans, apartments, etc., you did not say most Blacks. Perhaps my problem is I read too well.
Just disregard the points I brought up if they undermine your cherished ideals.

I remember years ago when I was in school, I was on a bus heading for home, and the bus stopped at a location and picked up some people. One of those people was a woman who didn't have money to pay for the bus so the driver asked her to leave. She started screaming that she was white and she had rights! And then she yelled “I have rights! I'm not a…” (Place N word here) I guess that was a good example of white privilege, though at the time I was too tired to really think about what she was carrying on about. This woman believed that her being white allowed her certain privileges above other people, even a free ride if she needed it.

Another good example that you might want to try at home boys and girls is if you have a friend that is Black, Hispanic, or an Asian. Go to some public place and simulate a fight with them. When security, or the cops show up I'll bet you $100.00 that the cops will go for the minority first. White privilege once again in action.

*Total Sarcasm MODE ENGAGED*

If I wanted to be a serial killer, I would be the last person that the police would suspect. I think I would be able to kill over 100 men if I were smart before I finally made a mistake and get caught. My being a white woman and having white privileges would enable me a long, rich, killing spree. Once again white privilege in action. Also, I can always expect a smiling face at stores and restaurants, and I can leave a cafe and say "The money's on the table." Because with white privilege, I am automatically a trusted soul whom even God will turn a blind eye. White Privileges, it’s the gift that keeps on giving if you are aware of it or not.

*Total Sarcasm MODE DISENGAGED*

This is a sick world do you not agree?

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I remember years ago when I was in school, I was on a bus heading for home, and the bus stopped at a location and picked up some people. One of those people was a woman who didn't have money to pay for the bus so the driver asked her to leave. She started screaming that she was white and she had rights! And then she yelled “I have rights! I'm not a…” (Place N word here) I guess that was a good example of white privilege, though at the time I was too tired to really think about what she was carrying on about. This woman believed that her being white allowed her certain privileges above other people, even a free ride if she needed it.

Do not confuse rampant racism with white privilege. Did she end up getting a free ride (white privilege) or was she left wailing at the curbside like the impotent racist that she is/was?

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:44 PM

Quote:

True and also you might also like to add that the biggest beneficiaries of the United States welfare system is white people, but we have all been condition to think of black people when the welfare system is ever mentioned.

I wasn't thinking about White privilege as racism, but now that you brought it up isn't White privilege a form of racism? I notice that we whites in the news, in books, and on the radio claiming that Black people are always screaming about racism. If I were to go by what every white I've ever heard say in the media, I would have to believe that there is not one white racist in all of America. We whites seriously believe that we are not racist and that the racism that our fathers and mothers demonstrated in the past is IN the past. Another benefit of White privilege I suspect. If you get enough people that believe that the moon doesnt exists I guess it ceases to exist.

strange planet with its strange people if you ask me.

-River

dunno, we all have stero types stuck in our heads; for instance, you say welfare, I think poor white women with more kids than you can count living in a trailer. Is that -good- sterotype to have in my head, or even necessarily accurate? No. But it's what's up there.

Last September, someone stole my rather large snow blower; if you ask what I envision, poor white dudes with a pickup about to fall apart making off with it. Fair, perhaps not. Interestingly enough, when I mentioned it to my neighbor he went on a rant about the "brown skins" (which after a bit, I determined he meant Mexicans; which rather surprised me because we don't have that many in the neighborhood); on the flip side he recently had someone of a darker persuasion recently captured in his garage, so he might have really been riffing off that.

But yes, what you are calling "white privilege" I would call racism. Subconcious or unconscience, but there none the less. It can be hardest bit to stamp out. And I for "full accountability", I must admit if I think "scary dude in the dark alley way late at night", I hate to admit I flash on a young, angry black man. Why? Not sure. Frankly, if it is late at night, if I saw a young angry white dude, I'd probably find a different way home also.

How do you combat that? Not sure. I can only say I try to not let it rise to the level of conscious action; and I know at times I deliberate push a hair "the other way" to cut a color person a break... which can also lead to resentment. It's not a trivial problem.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:48 PM

I should amend I am willing to believe that there's still racism about; to which I can only say what can you do but strive against it? If you see it, challenge it.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I remember years ago when I was in school, I was on a bus heading for home, and the bus stopped at a location and picked up some people. One of those people was a woman who didn't have money to pay for the bus so the driver asked her to leave. She started screaming that she was white and she had rights! And then she yelled “I have rights! I'm not a…” (Place N word here) I guess that was a good example of white privilege, though at the time I was too tired to really think about what she was carrying on about. This woman believed that her being white allowed her certain privileges above other people, even a free ride if she needed it.

Do not confuse rampant racism with white privilege. Did she end up getting a free ride (white privelege) or was she left wailing at the curbside like the impotent racist that she is/was?

Thank you for pointing that out. Sometimes white privelege and straight up racism have a habit of sometimes looking like the same thing. She ranted and raved and you could tell that she made the driver of the bus look ashamed, or disgusted; I wasn't really certain which one, but he let her ride for free, and no one (including myself) said a word about it, and in a way our silence supported that unspoken privilege.

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 1:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:
Thanks SignyM. I know we should strive to be better than others but I can't help but think how the reverse would be true if a white person tried to rent an apartment in say Zimbabwe.

You would get the same treatment in any other country but my focus is in this country. When people are defending their right to be racist, or subscribe to white privilege they are quick to point out that this sort of behavior is also going on in other countries. This is a way of saying that it is natural and normal for humans to treat each other that way so they are not being a bad person if they believe the guy down the street who is another race is an inferior person.

I believe that the majority of every racial group thinks that they are god’s gift to the planet Earth. I also believe that there is a minority within each racial group that doesn’t give a damn about any of that privilege and racial garbage and only cares if you are a nice or honest person. I’m with this group of people even though on occasions I would like to end all life on Earth.

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 1:06 PM

I've always been of the opinion that realizing it, challenging your own perceptions, and then quietly neglecting any reinforcement of it is the way to go.

Me, I don't much care about someones color, race or creed, like I said previously whatever makes folk seek a group and then dislike other groups, I was just plain born without it.

The fastest way to kill racism is to simply neglect it, stop feeding it, and ignore racial (not cultural, that's a different thing) differences utterly... but getting from here to there, that's the part I couldn't explain to ya.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:43 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Sexism too.

One of the ways around it is to make written applications "blind". For example grant and loan applications with NO NAME, so you have no idea if you're dealing with Jaheed McShaun, Clarissa Beau or Winston Wetherby III.

Another way is to expose kids (white kids) to blacks in position of authority: black teachers, principals, ministers, doctors, police. THAT would shake things up a bit. But how to to do that? I don't know.

---------------------------------
Always look upstream.

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 2:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
The fastest way to kill racism is to simply neglect it, stop feeding it, and ignore racial (not cultural, that's a different thing) differences utterly... but getting from here to there, that's the part I couldn't explain to ya.

If it were that easy people would have done away with that poison long ago but it appears that human social groups have a deep need to have another social group to look down on. This is the one of many consistent things about the human animal, and just ignoring it doesn’t go very well either. I'm looking at some photos right now of a scene taken from one of Hitler death camps. It's pretty awful, and is evidence that ignoring the ignorant, hateful, yet motivated types of people out there only ends up getting a lot of people killed, tortured or worse. Racism is not something to ignore because it will never, ever go away, and if it does, it won't be our life time.

If you really want to see some “enlightened” and justified hatred that’s presented in a loving, and motivated way just visit the White Pride World Wide site on the internet. These creative idiots really believe in what they are saying and their hate is hidden in words of love and God and country. They talk about how great it is to be born White and what a great people we are, which is good for any race to think, but if you read closer you will find that this is an unnerving group of complete xenophobes who have no problem with killing a Black, Asian, or Jewish child if they knew they could get away with it. I went through this site very carefully and I’ve come to the conclusion that some races (ours) really need to learn to not be so full of ourselves. It’s one thing to be proud of one’s race and another thing to use that pride as a way of putting down and demonizing other races. If Hitler didn’t have the Jews to blame for everything the whole Nazi machine would not have worked. It seems that “White Pride” needs a scapegoat to work. Without a scapegoat White pride falls on its face.

So ignore the hate and the class games people play out there? No, I don’t play them at all and I don’t allow myself to be played. This is one of the reasons I went into business for myself so I didn’t have to deal with the job market and all of the competing people who are fighting for scraps and trying to be superior in the process.

White Privilege is poison waiting to happen but it is so ingrained in our culture, and is totally unspoken that it’s future trouble waiting to happen.

-River

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Tuesday, May 29, 2007 4:14 PM