REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

maybe the male god of Genesis was written because men were bored

POSTED BY: 1KIKI
UPDATED: Saturday, April 11, 2015 13:02
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4609
PAGE 1 of 1

Sunday, April 5, 2015 3:28 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


First of all, if you read genesis, there's actually two concurrent creation accounts. So I'm not talking about the one with a female god, I'm talking about the story we're more in tune with - the male god.

Generally, religions reflect the social structural they're in. So, genesis - god - hierarchical, male, focused on loyalty and punishment - check check check.

Imagine someone with that mindset - imagining god. All powerful. All knowing. How bored would you be if that were you? How bored was god? What is the one thing god could not get bored with? Autonomous beings not directly under his control or predictable by his knowledge. ... creatures with free will ... hence the first mystery of god - an all knowing all powerful male entity that is still - somehow - not responsible for his creation.

Amway, so we have a god, created by wandering herders and a lack of imagination.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 7:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
. . . so we have a god, created by wandering herders and a lack of imagination.

We can categorize religious beliefs according to the degree to which God acts in the world. At one extreme is atheism: God does not exist, period. Next comes deism, a prominent belief in the 17th and 18th centuries and partly motivated to incorporate new scientific developments with theological thinking. Deism holds that God created the universe but has not acted thereafter. (Voltaire considered himself a deist.) Next comes immanentism: God created the universe and the physical laws and continues to act but only through repeated application of those fixed laws. While immanentism differs philosophically from deism, it is functionally equivalent because God does not perform miracles in the world, and the Central Doctrine of science is upheld. One can argue that Einstein believed in an immanentist God. Finally comes what some theologians call interventionism: From time to time, God can and does act to violate the laws.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism subscribe to an interventionist view of God. -- from “The Accidental Universe: The World You Thought You Knew” by Alan Lightman
www.amazon.com/Accidental-Universe-World-Thought-Knew/dp/034580595X/

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 7:58 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Now here's a happy Easter thread.

Those who dreamed up Genesis or the rest of the bible may very well have been bored, but they didn't lack in imagination.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:03 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now here's a happy Easter thread.

Those who dreamed up Genesis or the rest of the bible may very well have been bored, but they didn't lack in imagination.

Imagine every day is a special wholly Holy holiday.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


What would make it Holy ? And what about an occasional un-holy holiday ? I'd imagine those would be even more fun.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 9:39 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


As Eagleton contends in Culture and the Death of God, the Almighty has proven more resilient than His celebrated detractors and would-be assassins. God “has proved remarkably difficult to dispose of”; indeed, atheism itself has proven to be “not as easy as it looks.” Ever since the Enlightenment, “surrogate forms of transcendence” have scrambled for the crown of the King of Kings—reason, science, literature, art, nationalism, but especially “culture”—yet none have been up to the job.

Two glaring and puzzling absences from Eagleton’s roster of surrogates for God: the market and the commodity. Eagleton insists that capitalism is “fundamentally irreligious in a critical area (i.e., the economy), and totally alien to the category of the sacred.” Yet despite the apparent secularity of its pecuniary ethos, capitalism is hardly post-metaphysical: its metaphysics is money, the criterion of reality, meaning, and identity in a competitive commodity culture. The young Marx referred to “the divine power of money” and its status as “the god among commodities.” As the realm of the commodity widens, money not only purchases everything; it brings things into being from nothing, performing all manner of astonishing feats of moral and metaphysical alchemy.
-- www.dissentmagazine.org/article/the-gospel-according-to-terry

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 1:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think in the USA, my vote is with "capitalism" doing a pretty good job of displacing The Almighty, followed by anti-Communism and ant-Islam. After all, look at RAPPY. If there are a few things he's religious about (ie belief without evidence) it's that his version of capitalism is best (for whom?) and that Islam and Communism are direct, immediate threats to his existence.

But people can be religious about all kinds of things, and especially they can be religious about contradictory things. I know researchers who believe in god, and Bible-thumpers who cling to the Almighty Dollar (apparently the part of the Bible they never thumped was th New Testament).

So "god" doesn't need to be wholly displaced, just subverted or "contextualized".

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 3:08 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I think in the USA, my vote is with "capitalism" doing a pretty good job of displacing The Almighty, followed by anti-Communism and ant-Islam. After all, look at RAPPY. If there are a few things he's religious about (ie belief without evidence) it's that his version of capitalism is best (for whom?) and that Islam and Communism are direct, immediate threats to his existence.



You're talking about me, so I'll respond.

I have no 'version of capitalism ', personally. But as a system, it is better for humanity, by in large. Especially in helping aid the poor. Don't believe me, ask U2's Bono. Hardly a right-wing TEA party type, now is he ?

And the false narrative you bring up by this ficticious ( belief w/ out evidence ) that communism and Islam are " direct, immediate threats to " my existence is nothing but a ridiculous construct. It need not be a direct ,imminent threat to me for me to see that pure evil is happening. I don't feel hungry, so why the hell should I care who dies of starvation in Africa ? So goes your twisted brand of logic, Siggy.

The lack of empathy is something the Left usually accuses the Right of having, but it's clear that Siggy thinks that I can ONLY concern myself with things which directly affect me or my world. Unless it's AGW, then I MUST be compelled to care about a 0.05 degree increase over 100 years and POSSIBLY affecting the North Pole or the water table in California.

Make no mistake, the list of atrocities done by those who gleefully scream Allahu Akbar ! is by all every possible definition PURE Evil.

For you , Siggy, to so casually pass those things off as mere 'belief w/ out evidence' that radical Islam is a threat to me PERSONALLY , so that unless I can prove such is the case, I'm doing my best cry of " WOLF ! ", really does make me question if in fact you are human. At least, if you are the same species as I.


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 4:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


But as a system, it is better for humanity, by in large.
Because a few hundred people at most own more than the rest of the 7 billion combined?

Especially in helping aid the poor.
Especially in creating the poor.

It need not be a direct ,imminent threat to me for me to see that pure evil is happening.
But it's the US-backed (Nazi) Yatsenyuk government that's starving people while the communist Russian government is providing aid and refuge. And it's radicals who are threatening lives (though not so many as the US through its proxies), not the entirety of Islam. So you've failed to demonstrate evil where you think it belongs.

So goes your twisted brand of logic, Siggy.
Then you misunderstand the message - that evil should be apportioned where it belongs, and that outrage should be reserved for where it can be applied.

... I MUST be compelled to care about a 0.05 degree increase over 100 years ...
And here's where you go off the rails with - yet ANOTHER - lie. No matter how many times it's pointed out to you that average temperatures have climbed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit you persist in restating your lie. Why is that?

Is THIS your idea of a discussion? A lie-filled, fact-free, straw-man series of dodges?

Respond with facts and logic, if you can. Show us all you understand the meaning of the word 'discussion'. Or not. Personally, I don't care.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 4:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



But it's the US-backed (Nazi) Yatsenyuk government that's starving people while the communist Russian government is providing aid and refuge. And it's radicals who are threatening lives (though not so many as the US through its proxies), not the entirety of Islam. So you've failed to demonstrate evil where you think it belongs.



This is where your crazy is on full display.

I was referring to the Boko Harum, Al qaeda, ISIS, Taliban types... not to mention that you think the invading forces of Russians are the compassionate ones in the absorbing of Ukraine ?


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 4:49 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



This is where your crazy is on full display.


Facts? Logic?

Both seem to be missing - as usual.

But trolling - it's what you do. It's what you are.

And post-editing.

cheater




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:02 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Full blown, bat guano crazy.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



I was referring to the Boko Harum, Al qaeda, ISIS, Taliban types...

Just curious - were you specifically referring to radicals

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57907
More great moments from that religion of PEACE !

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=59631
Son Of Founding Member Of Hamas Comes Out And Drops A TRUTH BOMB About Islam

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=59641
maybe the male god of Genesis was written because men were bored
And the false narrative you bring up by this ficticious ( belief w/ out evidence ) that communism and Islam are " direct, immediate threats to " my existence is nothing but a ridiculous construct.

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=59640
$828,000 raised for Indiana pizzeria that said it won't cater gay weddings
I'm guessing you're cool w/ a MUSLIM bakery not being down with making a same sex marriage cake , but if they are a CHRISTIAN bakery, ...
HATERS !!!!!!

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=54659
Bill Maher - " All religions are not alike " .

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=51109
That lovely, peaceful religion of peace...

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=52769
Islam ! It's for Sandra Fluke ! ( So says Barack Hussein Obama )

here?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=33626
And only the rising force of Islam will prevail


So, explain to me again how you don't have a bias about Islam in general, and I'm just crazy.







SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:14 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Oh, it's no bias. None what so ever.

I'm just paying attention.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:17 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.




This is where your crazy is on full display.
I was referring to the Boko Harum, Al qaeda, ISIS, Taliban types...


So you WEREN'T referring to radicals as evil. You DID mean ALL of Islam. As you stated in this thread: the false narrative you bring up by this ficticious ( belief w/ out evidence ) that communism and Islam are " direct, immediate threats ..." and many others.

Got it.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Ridicule me , but not the blood thirsty sub humans who murder , rape and torture innocents in the name of their god or their child raping prophet ?

bat guano... straight up.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:30 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I see you're not getting the idea of facts and logic* as elements of an honest, reasonable discussion. (*Or as you so eloquently stated in the past "logic AND reason".)

You really CAN'T confront an honest discussion, especially when shown facts.



coward




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:41 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Quote:

I see you're not getting the idea of facts and logic* as elements of an honest, reasonable discussion.





NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Because all of Islam is responsible for the acts of a very few radicals.


Got it.


liar




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 5:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:



Because all of Islam is responsible for the acts of a hell of a lot of radicals, across Africa, Europe and the Middle East.

Got it.




Good. Glad it finally sunk in.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 6:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, to recap rappy's 'discussion':

Here he states:
Islam (is) pure evil
Facts to back up this assertion? None.

Here he fails to respond to facts presented to him with countervailing facts and logic:
... a few hundred people at most own more than the rest of the 7 billion combined
... it's the US-backed (Nazi) Yatsenyuk government that's starving people while the communist Russian government is providing aid and refuge
... it's radicals who are threatening lives (though not so many as the US through its proxies), not the entirety of Islam.

And here he strawman's an argument
So goes your twisted brand of logic, Siggy.

And here he lies, then fails to respond to the correction:
... I MUST be compelled to care about a 0.05 degree increase over 100 years ...
... average temperatures have climbed 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit

Here he lies about what he stated, and trolls based on his lie:
I was referring to the Boko Harum, Al qaeda, ISIS, Taliban types
This is where your crazy is on full display.

Trolls again:
Full blown, bat guano crazy.

And again:
bat guano... straight up.

And selectively quotes in order to 'win':
Good. Glad it finally sunk in.


At which point, unable to address facts, address the argument put before him, respond with facts and logic, refrain from trolling and - most importantly - stay on topic, he shows himself to be an epic


sociopath




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 6:44 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Why don't you recap all the beheadings, rapes, murders, female mutilations, stonings & gays tossed off tall buildings to their deaths - in the name of Allah - for us instead ?

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 6:53 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


address the facts




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 7:40 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
address the facts



Adulterers to be stoned to death, say activists

Eight women and one man convicted of adultery are set to be stoned to death in Iran, activists said on Sunday.

http://gulfnews.com/news/mena/iran/adulterers-to-be-stoned-to-death-sa
y-activists-1.119296

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 7:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


address the facts
acknowledge and correct your lies




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 7:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Can't. There are no lies to correct.

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:05 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


address the facts
acknowledge and correct your lies
apologize for and rescind your trolling




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Did

Can't

Nope

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 8:27 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


address the facts
acknowledge and correct your lies
apologize for and rescind your trolling
correctly state and reply to the arguments of others




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 9:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


you've got a lot to correct in this thread alone if you want to have a discussion

tho I think you never really want one because yanno trolling is so much easier and more fun for you




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 10:29 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
you've got a lot to correct in this thread alone if you want to have a discussion

http://xkcd.com/386/

What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!
http://xkcd.com/406/

P.P.S. I can kill you with my brain.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, April 5, 2015 11:59 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I was curious to see if rapturd could engage in a reasonable discussion in any amount. Looking at his replies, I found the answer was no. They were synthesized completely out of trolling, strawman arguments, lies etc.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 1:14 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"Yet despite His protracted dotage, God refuses to shuffle off into oblivion."

I find the focus on the western god puzzling. Is the author trying to make a generalized argument about humanity? Or is he, as it seems, addressing the new testament version of god specifically?

"Ever since the Enlightenment, “surrogate forms of transcendence” have scrambled for the crown of the King of Kings—reason, science, literature, art, nationalism, but especially “culture”—yet none have been up to the job."

I'd argue that in the realm of how people think about society the replacement is the bastardization of the understanding of evolution: social Darwinism. Things are the way they are because that's just how nature works.

But people are more than capable of holding contradictory beliefs. One can claim to be a Christian, yet focus on the Old Testament - that thing Jesus himself said he was abolishing - when it comes to passing judgment on others. Or claim to be Christian, yet subscribe on all days except Sunday to the capitalistic meaning of life. Or claim to be Christian yet be pro-war and pro-death penalty.

The author seems to be looking for a systematic pure synthesis. But synthesis already occurs in people's minds due to their ability to compartmentalize. You CAN have god, glory, greed and guns, all at the same time. Millions do it every day.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 3:13 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So, just thinking some more, and this may not end up anywhere -

if you start out with the idea that religions reflect their societies -

early x-tianity was schizophrenically teaching the message of jesus at the same time it was imposing a hierarchical and repressive structure (which eventually won out)

the synthesis of earthly hierarchy and religion (catholicism) achieved its greatest expression in feudalism (the original message of jesus having been lost) heaven and earth were a continuous hierarchy starting with god the father and down to the --- perhaps female serf child, leper, or jew (not sure who was most despised but they might be good candidates) it was a fusion of theological musing, religious practice and social structure not seen since

the rise of a merchantile class didn't fit into the system because their power was based on money, not land, so they weren't beholden to kings; and they didn't have a place in the 'god the highest to xxx the lowest' catholic hierarchy

a new religion had to be invented to justify their role in society, and that started with luther however, the religion had to bridge inherent contradictions in its foundation in the new testament god as it raison d'être and its very earthly goal of wealth; and between its claim of freedom of thought and its need for a subservient population

nothing seems to have quite solved the problem in all this time and it remains divided: god runs the church, social darwinism runs the economy, and a mishmash of self-righteous old-t beliefs run social mores - and that reflects the society we have today

the author thinks that a return to the message of jesus will prevail to solve the problem of religion
i don't think so since that message is basically contradictory to an acquisitive society and economy

however, many young people i see are unaffiliated with recognized groups - religion, political party, ideology, class, race - even country -- they seem to think that quick communication means they are the same everywhere, and their beliefs are those of the homogenized atomized mass-marketed target consumer

they may be the ultimate death of religion, and so solve the problem






SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 9:34 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

I'd argue that in the realm of how people think about society the replacement is the bastardization of the understanding of evolution: social Darwinism. Things are the way they are because that's just how nature works.

That made me think of Voltaire's Bastards by John Ralston Saul:

It is one of the most cherished modern myths - and the subject of pretty much all the modernist works of art you can think of - that the Western world is decadent and on the slide, that we spend our lives spinning in the hither-and-thither breeze of the mass media and faceless bureaucratic corporations, and that we have wantonly sacrificed any theological authority for our moral life. You would not have thought it necessary, these days, to write a 500-page book arguing that the world has gone wrong. But John Ralston Saul, the historian and thriller writer, has come up with a fervent attack on the rational technocracy that governs modern culture.

We have relied too blindly on reason as the chief hope for the betterment of mankind. Worse, somewhere along the way we have settled for the illusion of reason rather than the thing itself. It takes confidence - some might say cheek - to see the world as deluded and mechanical while exempting oneself from the charge. Still, the book hums with a sharp sense of the absurd ironies in modern life. 'Our societies turn upon democratic principles,' Saul writes, 'yet the quasi totality of our citizens refuse to take part in that process and, instead, leave the exercise of political power to those for whom they have contempt. Our business leaders hector us in the name of capitalism, when most of them are no more than corporate employees, isolated from personal risk. We condemn arms dealers as immoral and sleazy figures, while ignoring the fact that our own senior civil servants and senior corporate leadership together are responsible for more than 90 per cent of the arms traded.'

It is curiously vexing to agree so warmly with so much of what someone says, yet still to resent the way he keeps haranguing you about it. You read this book thinking, yup, yup, yup, yup, yup, hah, exactly! yup, yup . . . wait a minute . . . yup, yup . . . listen, I agree, okay? . . . sure, yup . . . look, just shut up for a minute, would you? It's unreasonable, I know. But there it is.

You could read the whole book here: www.american-buddha.com/lit.voltairebastard.toc.htm

Voltaire's Bastards by John Ralston Saul
Chapter 1. In Which the Narrator Positions Himself

In moments of great passion, the mind tends to be flooded with a warm vision of the person in our arms. We are unlikely, at that point, to be analyzing their flaws, real or hypothetical. Even less likely if lying in darkness. As for the possible product of our intercourse, only the most peculiar lover would be fretting, while in the act, over whether such a child might or might not be an appropriate and worthy creation.

Voltaire and the other thinkers of the eighteenth century could be criticized, with the facility of hindsight, for the passion with which they embraced reason. But they lived in societies still ruled by the demeaning vagaries of court life. All of them had been thrown in jail or risked it simply for expressing their opinions. In most countries justice still used torture as an official method of interrogation and the condemned faced a variety of brutal punishments; being broken on the wheel, for example. This and other tools of arbitrary power constituted a social form of darkness. The philosophers of Europe, England and America threw themselves into the arms of reason, convinced that birth would be given to new rational elites capable of building a new civilization. This love affair was fertile to the point of being miraculous and society was subsequently reformed for the better beyond what any of these thinkers had imagined.

And yet the exercise of power, without the moderating influence of any ethical structure, rapidly became the religion of these new elites. And their reforms included an unparalleled and permanent institutionalization of state violence. This was accompanied by a growing struggle between democratic and rational methods, with the rational increasingly at an advantage.

Were Voltaire to reappear today, he would be outraged by the new structures, which somehow deformed the changes for which he struggled. As for his descendants -- our ruling elites -- he would deny all legal responsibility and set about fighting them, as he once fought the courtiers and priests of eighteenth-century Europe.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 11:37 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Interesting post, needs more thought. Thanks.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 4:48 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


THANKS Second. I appreciate your post - and the link, and bookmarked it for reading.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Monday, April 6, 2015 5:44 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


www.nytimes.com/1992/09/27/books/l-voltaire-s-bastards-006192.html
The central theme of the book follows the parallel progression of reason and humanism in the West. It argues that the rational elites, aggressive and without direction, claimed credit for many of the accomplishments of the humanists while blaming the humanists for the disasters they themselves brought on. The effect of this parallel development on military strategy, science, politics and business makes up the body of "Voltaire's Bastards." The rise of secrecy has been one of the results, as has the change in the nature of individualism and in the role of both the image and the word as facilitators or controllers of communication.

The standard methodology among ideologues is distracting personal abuse. What's more, the ideologue's weapon against thought and consideration is to insist on quick answers. When faced by the failure of their public policies, their answer is always: What next? The Chinese strategist Sun-tzu laid out a far more sensible approach 2,500 years ago. When you are losing, withdraw to safe ground and work out why.

Perhaps this is a good time not to cede to the hysteria of ideologues and to their worship of absolute answers, of power for its own sake, of false individualism, courtesanage and corporatism. Perhaps it is the moment for a more careful, considered approach to ideas and to public affairs.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:04 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:



I'd argue that in the realm of how people think about society the replacement is the bastardization of the understanding of evolution: social Darwinism. Things are the way they are because that's just how nature works.-KIKI

That made me think of Voltaire's Bastards by John Ralston Saul:
It is one of the most cherished modern myths - and the subject of pretty much all the modernist works of art you can think of - that the Western world is decadent and on the slide, that we spend our lives spinning in the hither-and-thither breeze of the mass media and faceless bureaucratic corporations, and that we have wantonly sacrificed any theological authority for our moral life. You would not have thought it necessary, these days, to write a 500-page book arguing that the world has gone wrong. But John Ralston Saul, the historian and thriller writer, has come up with a fervent attack on the rational technocracy that governs modern culture.

I'm not sure that we're governed by our culture, and that culture is governed by technocracy.

Quote:

We have relied too blindly on reason as the chief hope for the betterment of mankind. Worse, somewhere along the way we have settled for the illusion of reason rather than the thing itself. It takes confidence - some might say cheek - to see the world as deluded and mechanical while exempting oneself from the charge. Still, the book hums with a sharp sense of the absurd ironies in modern life. 'Our societies turn upon democratic principles,' Saul writes, 'yet the quasi totality of our citizens refuse to take part in that process and, instead, leave the exercise of political power to those for whom they have contempt. Our business leaders hector us in the name of capitalism, when most of them are no more than corporate employees, isolated from personal risk. We condemn arms dealers as immoral and sleazy figures, while ignoring the fact that our own senior civil servants and senior corporate leadership together are responsible for more than 90 per cent of the arms traded.'
We accept the basic underlying hypocrisies of modern life?

Quote:

It is curiously vexing to agree so warmly with so much of what someone says, yet still to resent the way he keeps haranguing you about it. You read this book thinking, yup, yup, yup, yup, yup, hah, exactly! yup, yup . . . wait a minute . . . yup, yup . . . listen, I agree, okay? . . . sure, yup . . . look, just shut up for a minute, would you? It's unreasonable, I know. But there it is.

You could read the whole book here:

www.american-buddha.com/lit.voltairebastard.toc.htm

I started to, but don't have enuf time.

Quote:

Voltaire's Bastards by John Ralston Saul
Chapter 1. In Which the Narrator Positions Himself

In moments of great passion, the mind tends to be flooded with a warm vision of the person in our arms. We are unlikely, at that point, to be analyzing their flaws, real or hypothetical. Even less likely if lying in darkness. As for the possible product of our intercourse, only the most peculiar lover would be fretting, while in the act, over whether such a child might or might not be an appropriate and worthy creation.

Hmmm... I thought about it.

Quote:

Voltaire and the other thinkers of the eighteenth century could be criticized, with the facility of hindsight, for the passion with which they embraced reason.
I always thought that many 18th century philosophers mistook "rationalization" for "reason". Rousseau in particular simply rationalized his way to a foregone conclusion. Not much insight in his work.
Quote:

But they lived in societies still ruled by the demeaning vagaries of court life. All of them had been thrown in jail or risked it simply for expressing their opinions. In most countries justice still used torture as an official method of interrogation and the condemned faced a variety of brutal punishments; being broken on the wheel, for example. This and other tools of arbitrary power constituted a social form of darkness. The philosophers of Europe, England and America threw themselves into the arms of reason, convinced that birth would be given to new rational elites capable of building a new civilization. This love affair was fertile to the point of being miraculous and society was subsequently reformed for the better beyond what any of these thinkers had imagined.

And yet the exercise of power, without the moderating influence of any ethical structure, rapidly became the religion of these new elites. And their reforms included an unparalleled and permanent institutionalization of state violence. This was accompanied by a growing struggle between democratic and rational methods, with the rational increasingly at an advantage.

Were Voltaire to reappear today, he would be outraged by the new structures, which somehow deformed the changes for which he struggled. As for his descendants -- our ruling elites -- he would deny all legal responsibility and set about fighting them, as he once fought the courtiers and priests of eighteenth-century Europe.



I guess I'll need to read the whole book. I'm confused, for example, by how the author juxtaposes "reason" versus "humanism", since both are enemies of religion and spring from the emerging view of a knowable (clockwork) universe which follows certain physical laws, like gravity.

Do you perhaps have a shortened insight about this particular book, since I'm having a had time understanding his basic precept?


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, April 11, 2015 12:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:


Because all of Islam is responsible for the acts of a hell of a lot of radicals, across Africa, Europe and the Middle East.

Got it.


Good. Glad it finally sunk in.
Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen


Do you think it really will sink in? Will she expect any non-radical Muslims to publicly denounce the murderous terrorist apparent majority of Muslims? Will she expect any non-radical Muslims in Iran, Iraq, Syria, ISIS, Yemen to do the same?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, April 11, 2015 1:02 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
www.nytimes.com/1992/09/27/books/l-voltaire-s-bastards-006192.html
The central theme of the book follows the parallel progression of reason and humanism in the West. It argues that the rational elites, aggressive and without direction, claimed credit for many of the accomplishments of the humanists while blaming the humanists for the disasters they themselves brought on. The effect of this parallel development on military strategy, science, politics and business makes up the body of "Voltaire's Bastards." The rise of secrecy has been one of the results, as has the change in the nature of individualism and in the role of both the image and the word as facilitators or controllers of communication.

The standard methodology among ideologues is distracting personal abuse. What's more, the ideologue's weapon against thought and consideration is to insist on quick answers. When faced by the failure of their public policies, their answer is always: What next? The Chinese strategist Sun-tzu laid out a far more sensible approach 2,500 years ago. When you are losing, withdraw to safe ground and work out why.

Perhaps this is a good time not to cede to the hysteria of ideologues and to their worship of absolute answers, of power for its own sake, of false individualism, courtesanage and corporatism. Perhaps it is the moment for a more careful, considered approach to ideas and to public affairs.


Appears you have read the same Voltaire that Obama was forced to read. Replace "rational elites" with liberals and "humanists" with Tea Party Patriots, and you have gained great understanding.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Elon Musk
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:33 - 28 posts
Kamala Harris for President
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:24 - 594 posts
A.I Artificial Intelligence AI
Thu, October 31, 2024 19:16 - 237 posts
How do you like my garbage truck?
Thu, October 31, 2024 18:49 - 2 posts
Trump on Joe Rogan: Full Podcast
Thu, October 31, 2024 18:05 - 7 posts
Israeli War
Thu, October 31, 2024 18:04 - 62 posts
In the garden, and RAIN!!! (2)
Thu, October 31, 2024 17:58 - 4657 posts
Elections; 2024
Thu, October 31, 2024 17:45 - 4425 posts
Spooky Music Weird Horror Songs...Tis ...the Season...... to be---CREEPY !
Thu, October 31, 2024 16:19 - 56 posts
Sentencing Thread
Thu, October 31, 2024 15:11 - 381 posts
human actions, global climate change, global human solutions
Thu, October 31, 2024 14:25 - 921 posts
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
Thu, October 31, 2024 13:46 - 7408 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL