REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

We tortured some folks

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Saturday, December 20, 2014 14:38
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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:03 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


McCain lost his bid to be president because he no longer represents republicans. I suspect they see his position on torture as driven by personal issues; quaint, and misguided.

I mean look at rappy - it wasn't torture, but if it was we were justified, and the fact that it was us rather than somebody else makes it patriotic, and that torture is a measure of greatness. Though it's not torture. The twisted nature of their thinking doesn't allow for McCain's position. McCain'll be discarded on this and many other issues because he no longer serves their purpose.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:29 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Pelosi, Dems 'fully aware' of CIA interrogation techniques, says former agency official


WASHINGTON – The man who oversaw the controversial CIA interrogation program said Sunday that Rep. Nancy Pelosi was “fully aware,” of the methods used against militants, while former Vice President Dick Cheney continued to defend the program and reiterated that the U.S. “stopped short of torture.”

Both men said the techniques used -- including waterboarding -- had been approved by Bush administration lawyers and did not cross the legal line.

Jose Rodriguez, former director of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service, said on “Fox News Sunday” that Pelosi “knew every one of our enhanced interrogations,” including sleep deprivation as well as slapping and pushing prisoners.

Rodriguez revived previous claims that Pelosi and other top Democratic lawmakers were briefed and approved the program -- which President Barack Obama now calls torture. Pelosi and other Democrats have denied Rodriguez' claims, according to The Associated Press.

Rodriguez added that the program was the most thoroughly reviewed one in CIA history and that the recently-released Senate report betrays intelligence officials and “throws the CIA under this bus.”

Rodriguez said there was a chance that allies who had cooperated with the United States in the past might reassess their involvement.

Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse, D-R.I., a former member of the Senate Select Committee on intelligence, and Karl Rove, a former White House adviser to President George W. Bush and a Fox News contributor, were also on the program.

The two were often at odds over whether the techniques described in the report constituted torture, whether the methods were effective and if the CIA misled the White House and Congress.

The CIA report dominated most of the Sunday talk shows, with Cheney reiterating his opinion that the 6,000-page document was “deeply flawed” and “full of crap.”

Cheney, who was on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” said U.S. interrogators “stopped sort of torture” and said that he “would do it again in a minute.”

Cheney said there was “no comparison” between the methods CIA interrogators used and the death of 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001.

“Torture is what Al Quaeda did,” he said. “There is no comparison between that and what we did with respect to enhanced interrogation.”

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., defended the Senate report’s release on CBS’ “Face the Nation,” and said the graphic accounts of brutal treatment justified the report’s public release.

McCain said he had a “vigorous discussion” with Cheney and former CIA Director Michael Hayden, during which he urged with them not to use some of the controversial methods detailed in the report.

“I said these things are torture. They’re in violation of the Geneva Convention and the convention against torture,” he said.

“I urge everyone to just read the report,” he said, making reference to a Senate Intelligence Committee report that Republican leaders panned last week as an attempt to smear the Bush administration.

“You can’t claim that tying someone to the floor and have them freeze to death is not torture. You can’t say 183 times someone is waterboarded,” he said.

McCain noted that waterboarding was used during the Spanish Inquisition and the United States tried and executed Japanese officers as war criminals for using waterboarding.

Cheney, though, said he was not worried about prosecution or the need for a pardon.

“No crime was committed,” he said. “Why is a pardon required?”

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/14/former-director-cia-interro
gation-program-defends-interrogation-techniques-used
/


( Any chance Princess Pelosi is just gettin too damn old, had too much botox, that she really doesn't remember ? Selectively ? )

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

... the fact that it was us rather than somebody else makes it patriotic, and that torture is a measure of greatness.




The measure of greatness was in it NOT being torture, and it saved lives. Oh yeah, and it got UBL too, which may be Obama's lone claim as President all Americans can appreciate.


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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


He said ... she said.

Any evidence? Besides your gullibility for FAUX.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:38 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Well, at least the most important portion of this topic accomplished it's goal.
Bobo needed something to deflect the headlines away from McGruber's testimony to Congress, which was the reason this report from 10 years ago needed to be released on the same date, coincidentally, and in no relation whatsoever, as the McGruber hearings.

All of the MSM managed to deflect all interest in a real story and latch onto this non-story.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"McGruber"

You got the name wrong. But, yeah, that's about your level of knowledge.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 3:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
He said ... she said.

Any evidence? Besides your gullibility for FAUX.





Oh, you doubting UBL is really dead ?

Crassic.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 4:26 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Pelosi, Dems 'fully aware' of CIA interrogation techniques, says former agency official -

That WAS your point. As for evidence...

The man who oversaw the controversial CIA interrogation program said Sunday that Rep. Nancy Pelosi was “fully aware,” of the methods used against militants ... Pelosi and other Democrats have denied Rodriguez' claims...

He said ... she said.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 4:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"McGruber"

You got the name wrong. But, yeah, that's about your level of knowledge.


Wow, against all odds, you wandered into a fact, swerving into the truth. I did miss an "a" in the spelling of MacGruber. Sorry to confuse you.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1470023/

Regarding the ACA schlickengruber, I believe I was the first on this board to post about Jonathon Gruber. Try to keep up, okaaay cupcake?

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58806

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 4:36 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Pelosi, Dems 'fully aware' of CIA interrogation techniques, says former agency official -

That WAS your point. As for evidence...

The man who oversaw the controversial CIA interrogation program said Sunday that Rep. Nancy Pelosi was “fully aware,” of the methods used against militants ... Pelosi and other Democrats have denied Rodriguez' claims...

He said ... she said.


How is it even possible that dedicated party hacks intent on fabricating a report can decide first what the conclusions of their biased and unbalanced novella will be and then cherry-pick selected communique and memos among professionals, while avoiding any information directly from or interviews with said professionals or their superiors, or their agency heads or liaisons within the Congress or White House, and be able to result in the exact same conclusion that they started with the assumption of?
How can it beeeeeeeee?

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 4:46 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


How can you possibly be any more obtuse, delusion and incoherent?
How can it beeeeeeeee?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I can tell - you are SO interested in facts you bother to look them up so that you know your comments are well-grounded. That level of interest in facts shows in ALL your posts. Yes, that's snark, okaaay cupcake?



Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:

Wow, against all odds, you wandered into a fact, swerving into the truth. I did miss an "a" in the spelling of MacGruber.



Or maybe you can stumble off and join ZIT and little rappy in a nice warm bagel ... with cream on it.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:55 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"McGruber"

You got the name wrong. But, yeah, that's about your level of knowledge.


Wow, against all odds, you wandered into a fact, swerving into the truth. I did miss an "a" in the spelling of MacGruber. Sorry to confuse you.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1470023/

Regarding the ACA schlickengruber, I believe I was the first on this board to post about Jonathon Gruber. Try to keep up, okaaay cupcake?

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58806




" Dieter Von Cunth "


*snort*

I see what you did there, even if it wasn't your intent.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:09 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Are you calling rapJSF a failure?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:38 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

In a sideways note, there are people here who apparently think I don't know about weapons in the American Revolutionary War. I take a clue from Francis Scott Keyes, who wrote about

bombs bursting in air



The man's name was Francis Scott Key, not Keyes.

He wrote the "bombs bursting in air" line during the shelling of Fort McHenry in the War Of 1812, not the Revolutionary War.


We all know you're a complete idiot, but this latest from you is really too much stupidity for one person.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 9:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Well, I actually looked up the use of "bombs" in the Revolutionary War before I posted. That's why I said i took a CLUE from FS Key (sorry for the mangled name), but that's not where I got my INFORMATION.

I originally went here:

http://www.americanrevolution.org/artillery.php

But although it implies that howizters and mortars firing exploding shells (bombs) were used in the Revolutionary War, it didn't exactly say so. I found much more information here:

Quote:


Revolutionary War Artillery
Cannon, mortars and howitzers made up the three types of artillery used at Yorktown by the Americans, French and British.

Cannon included both field guns, which were lightweight, mobile pieces and heavy siege guns which had limited mobility. Field guns, firing solid shot, grapeshot and canister in a fairly flat trajectory, could tear large holes in the enemy’s infantry ranks. Siege cannon fired solid shot, destroying fortifications and buildings. Against ships, cannon crews utilized hot shot, a superheated cannon ball that could set a ship on fire; and bar shot and chain shot, (two halves of a cannon ball attached by either a bar or chain) that could pull down a ship’s mast and rigging.

Mortar
Mortars differed from cannon in both appearance and firing principles. A mortar was mounted on a flat bed, resembling a large block of wood. An elevating wedge raised the barrel, enabling the mortar to fire an exploding shell, called a "bomb," in a high trajectory. Fired properly, the bomb would fly over earthworks and explode while still airborne, raining shrapnel over the enemy

The howitzer combined the principles of both the cannon and the mortar. Mounted on a field carriage, the howitzer fired both bombs and cannon balls at a flat or high trajectory.

Howitzer
The size of the mortar and howitzer was designated by the width of the bore. Eight, ten, 12 and 13-inch mortars and howitzers were used at Yorktown.

... The British surrendered at Yorktown 244 artillery pieces of mainly lightweight field cannon. These had been ineffective against the enemy’s earthworks. While General Washington’s forces had considerably fewer pieces— approximately 131— it was their superior number of siege guns and their skilled gun crews, such as Colonel Lamb’s Artillery, that made the difference.


http://www.nps.gov/york/historyculture/revolutionary-war-artillery.htm

My god, JSS, were you so anxious to prove me wrong that you couldn't even stop to do a little fact checking???

Apparently!

So there you are, with egg on your face. Again.

I expect to see a picture of a pig now, or something equally gratuitous. It's what you're so well known for. I'd be completely surprised if you actually had anything interesting to say on topic. [/disdain]



--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns. King George couldn't!

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 10:39 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Does anyone recall torture and Adelai Niska?

The fact is that Mal wasn't really harmed by Niska. Simon and a dermal mender put Mal's ear back where it belonged. Why was Mal angry at Niska? Mal didn't even die because Niska restarted Mal's heart. So why make a big deal about nothing?

Would Mal respect Cheney's position on Enhanced Interrogation? Or would Mal just take unreasonable offense at perfectly lawful methods that were no worse than Niska's, taking into account 500 years worth of advances in emergency medical treatment.

Niska killed none of Mal's crew, but Mal killed Niska's henchmen. Doesn't that mean Mal was in the wrong and Niska in the right?
http://mrechs.deviantart.com/art/Misbehave-500059711


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 10:42 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


second - you're losing it. No comparison to a FICTIONAL event where the story involved PUNISHING Mal , for the sadistic sake of MAKING HIM FEEL PAIN, which is exactly NOT what we did, w/ the terrorists.

Please, don't get stuck on stupid.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 10:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, if you already have the information then why WOULD you torture terrorists, if not for sadistic pleasure? (Sadistic pleasure - something I think you know quite a bit about, given the rape fantasy you so freely shared.)




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 10:55 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
second - you're losing it. No comparison to a FICTIONAL event where the story involved PUNISHING Mal , for the sadistic sake of MAKING HIM FEEL PAIN, which is exactly NOT what we did, w/ the terrorists.

Please, don't get stuck on stupid.

I think you are deeply mistaken about the purpose of pain during Enhanced Interrogation. Quite apparently, Mal's pain did not rise to a level that mentally broke him down. Obviously Niska and his henchman were going easier on Mal than Cheney's henchmen on their prisoners, who did break down. I think you should have noted that critical difference.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:05 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


No second, YOU are completely mistaken.

There was NOTHING Mal could have done to keep Niska from torturing, killing , reviving and then repeating, until Niska grew weary of the game.

This is exactly NOT what took place in Gitmo.

Unfuckingbelievable that anyone can so mistakenly compare 1 FICTIONAL event to a very real world scenario which involved keeping very real world people ALIVE and safe from terrorist attack.

Mal wasn't planning on attacking Niska or anyone.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:11 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:

Well, if you already have the information then why WOULD you torture terrorists, if not for sadistic pleasure? (Sadistic pleasure - something I think you know quite a bit about, given the rape fantasy you so freely shared.)





kiki - you're crossing the line there, as I've never shared ANY " rape fantasy " what so ever.

I don't give a flip about what differences of opinion we have, but when you falsely accuse anyone of rape, or rape fantasies, that's complete b.s. You take that back, if there's an micron of truth and decency in you.

You ask if we have the info, why continue with EIT ?

There IS no reason. If info is offered up, that's legit, then there's no EIT in the first place. You paint a false scenario , simply to promote your false propaganda.

( shocker, I know )

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:18 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
No second, YOU are completely mistaken.

There was NOTHING Mal could have done to keep Niska from torturing, killing , reviving and then repeating, until Niska grew weary of the game.

This is exactly NOT what took place in Gitmo.

Unfuckingbelievable that anyone can so mistakenly compare 1 FICTIONAL event to a very real world scenario which involved keeping very real world people ALIVE and safe from terrorist attack.

Mal wasn't planning on attacking Niska or anyone.

Why do you think Cheney's henchmen would stop Enhanced Interrogation on the word of the prisoner? The prisoner saying "I yield" and the Interrogation ends? That is not how Cheney's henchmen conducted an Interrogation.

You're using Cheney-style rhetoric when you imply that the Interrogation ends when the prisoner convinces the Interrogator that "real world people are safe from terrorist attack." That's not how any Enhanced Interrogation ended.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:19 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Jessica Alba, by surprise, from behind.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:23 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


SECOND !!!

God dammit ! Cheney wasn't President ! HE DIDN'T DO A GOD DAMN THING WRONG !

And stop saying his " henchmen ". Cheney HAD NO HENCHMEN !!!

Good effing god! You children do parrot on your lies over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...


kiki - you've wasted 1 post with no apology.

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Sunday, December 14, 2014 11:35 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
SECOND !!!

God dammit ! Cheney wasn't President ! HE DIDN'T DO A GOD DAMN THING WRONG !

And stop saying his " henchmen ". Cheney HAD NO HENCHMEN !!!

Good effing god! You children do parrot on your lies over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over...

And I thought he was the Vice-President of the United States, only a heartbeat away from being President. Are you claiming Cheney was "not worth a bucket of warm piss"? That is a colorful phrase used by John Nance Garner, Vice-President. You might be right about Cheney's personality, but he had real power in the White House.

I forgot to say that Cheney is on TV defending torture because his fingerprints are all over the Enhanced Interrogation policy of the Bush White House. He is defending his own work.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 12:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


He's not defending torture because there was no torture for him to defend.

Ever think of Joe Biden as " having so much power " ??

Funny thought, but scary too, if you think about it.

Joe is a ghost , save for his foot in mouth comments, yet he's in the same office as Cheney held.

What proof do you have that shows Cheney had " the real power in the WH " ???


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Monday, December 15, 2014 1:26 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


You don't seem to have your head around the definition of torture. Just because someone denies it's torture doesn't mean it's so.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 5:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You don't seem to have your head around the definition of torture. Just because someone denies it's torture doesn't mean it's so.



Torture is attempting rational dialogue with 1kiki.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 8:41 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
He's not defending torture because there was no torture for him to defend.
. . .
What proof do you have that shows Cheney had " the real power in the WH " ???

In 2009, May and August, Dick Cheney was defending his enhanced interrogation policy. Cheney was on TV then and now because it is his policy.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/30/cheney.cia.interrogations/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/11/AR2009
051102668.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/us/politics/31cheney.html


I think it is really nice of Cheney to attach his face and name to this policy, making it more dramatic. He is playing the role of a 21st century Adelai Niska for TV. Niska really did have good justification for torturing Mal since Mal killed Niska's henchman, Crow. Crow deserved better. Niska was showing restraint after Mal turned Crow into bloody hamburger.

Think of Kaylee cleaning Crow out of Serenity's engine.


http://jerantino.deviantart.com/art/Kaylee-500391471


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, December 15, 2014 11:35 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


2nd - you're clearly stuck in a fiction loop & can't deal with the real world. Pointless in trying to reason with you until you're back on this side of the looking glass.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 11:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
2nd - you're clearly stuck in a fiction loop & can't deal with the real world. Pointless in trying to reason with you until you're back on this side of the looking glass.

Here is a real story about The Charmed Life of a CIA Torturer Matthew Zirbel. Torture is a way to get ahead in this world and it pays well, too!
http://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/15/charmed-life-cia-torturer/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Monday, December 15, 2014 7:52 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
second - you're losing it. No comparison to a FICTIONAL event where the story involved PUNISHING Mal , for the sadistic sake of MAKING HIM FEEL PAIN, which is exactly NOT what we did, w/ the terrorists.



Please, don't get stuck on stupid.


Too late.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 10:31 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


So rappy, you don't deny your rape fantasy That's a start.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, December 15, 2014 10:53 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
second - you're losing it. No comparison to a FICTIONAL event where the story involved PUNISHING Mal , for the sadistic sake of MAKING HIM FEEL PAIN, which is exactly NOT what we did, w/ the terrorists.



Please, don't get stuck on stupid.


Too late.

Political cartoon from the Houston Chronicle on Monday, July 17, 2006. That's Bush and Cheney, together. Too metaphorical for you to grasp? Will you claim that Cheney was inconsequential to setting policy in the White House? In 2014, is Cheney only a public spirited retiree and not really the main TV defender of his very own policies? Will you keep pretending that Cheney had nothing to do with the White House policies on torture? Just curious.

Since torture was Cheney's idea, that explains why Cheney is so adamantly defending Enhanced Interrogation policies now. But he doesn't take credit because that is a powerful reason for him to lie about Enhanced Interrogation while he is being interviewed on TV in 2014. He doesn't want to underline for the TV audience the fact he has every motivation in the world to be lying to them.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, December 16, 2014 6:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


second - again, you're stuck in a loop of FICTION. Political cartoons are just that. cartoons. Political opinion, used to exaggerate so as to make a point. Either for or against some candidate, agenda, what ever.



Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So rappy, you don't deny your rape fantasy That's a start.




Actually, I do, and that's yet another post you wasted in NOT apologizing.


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Tuesday, December 16, 2014 11:40 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


There is poll showing Americans approve of Torture. Cheney was wasting his time making distinctions between torture and Enhanced Interrogation. Both are all good with America.

There is a detailed breakdown of responses by key demographics.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/new-poll-finds-majority
-of-americans-believe-torture-justified-after-911-attacks/2014/12/16/f6ee1208-847c-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, December 16, 2014 11:50 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
second - again, you're stuck in a loop of FICTION. Political cartoons are just that. cartoons. Political opinion, used to exaggerate so as to make a point. Either for or against some candidate, agenda, what ever.



Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
So rappy, you don't deny your rape fantasy That's a start.




Actually, I do, and that's yet another post you wasted in NOT apologizing.



Funny rappy, but I remember that post too. It was so unasked-for, so off-topic, and so startlingly offensive it was hard to forget.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 9:48 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Funny rappy, but I remember that post too. It was so unasked-for, so off-topic, and so startlingly offensive it was hard to forget.

AURaptor volunteered, unasked by the privileged group in power, to speak for them.

Groups which benefit from the existing structure of society have an interest in seeing that structure not changed, which is all very obvious.

In Moral Man and Immoral Society all life is marked by ignorance and selfishness, but at least the individual sometimes demonstrates the potential to rise above ignorance and selfishness to reach rational analysis and unselfish concern for others. Groups, on the other hand, are both more stupid and more selfish than individuals. They seem especially impervious either to rational or moral appeal, easily prone to self-deception and demagoguery. They won't accede to any changes that cut against their own self-interest.

Privileged groups have an extraordinary ability to identify their interests with the peace and order of society. Privileged groups call in their forces of state power in the purported interests of the “peace and order” of society as a whole, but in fact to suppress change. Self-deception reigns among the privileged because, among other reasons, to see reality more truly would place an unbearable moral pressure on them.

Now you know the place where AURaptor is writing from. Every single day.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 10:11 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Funny rappy, but I remember that post too. It was so unasked-for, so off-topic, and so startlingly offensive it was hard to forget.



And like 'Hands up, don't shoot ', it never happened. Oh, sure, there may have been a reference about Jessica Alba, as I've often brought her up, but you're imagining the 'rape' aspect of it, much like a Rolling Stone story.

It didn't happen.

second - this isn't India, and there is no caste system. You're still stuck in that fiction loop we talked about.

Might want to see to that.

Quote:

Privileged groups call in their forces of state power in the purported interests of the “peace and order” of society as a whole, but in fact to suppress change. Self-deception reigns among the privileged because, among other reasons, to see reality more truly would place an unbearable moral pressure on them


Then again... that does sound a lot like Lois Lerner and the IRS targeting of average Americans.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:13 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

second - this isn't India, and there is no caste system. You're still stuck in that fiction loop we talked about.

Are you sure America doesn't have a caste system? Jeb Bush is running for President. His likely opponent would be Hillary Clinton.

One family exploited its vast wealth to obtain political power, while the other exploited its political power to obtain vast wealth.

Having someone who is the brother and son of presidents run against the wife of a president would be sweetly illustrative of American life, from meritocracy to class mobility.

And Jeb and Hillary don't have any torture problem with Cheney. Looking after their own interests means they have no time for irrelevant CIA torture reports.

The two ruling families have, unsurprisingly, developed a movingly warm relationship befitting their position: the matriarch of the Bush family (former First Lady Barbara) has described the Clinton patriarch (former President Bill) as a virtual family member, noting that her son, George W., affectionately calls his predecessor “my brother by another mother.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/barbara-bush-gushes-bill-clin
ton-treats-george-h-w-bush-father-article-1.1113917

http://nypost.com/2014/09/08/are-bill-clinton-and-george-w-bush-best-b
uds-now
/


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:36 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


So, I don't have a " torture " problem w/ Cheney, I'm part of some super secret caste system ?

Where the hell is my time share on Martha's Vineyard ? My Hawaiian bungalow ? My lodge in Aspen ?

Dammit ! I'm being screwed !!

** per your reply below .. You're ever stuck in your fiction loop. I'll not play along in any discussion that so pointlessly remains mired in make believe.


*** ETA Per Storybook's delusion -

Quote:

Tell that to the Japanese we executed for committing the exact same WAR CRIMES.

But you're not capable of that level of insight.



You're wrong, fecal face. The Japanese did far , FAR worse than mere 'waterboarding' . That they happened to have waterboarded in the long list of other offenses, doesn't mean they were executed FOR WATERBOARDING alone.

You're selective Leftist mindset only allows you to see what you want, when it suits you.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 2:26 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm part of some super secret caste system ?

Where the hell is my time share on Martha's Vineyard ? My Hawaiian bungalow ? My lodge in Aspen ?

Dammit ! I'm being screwed !!

You've been paid what your service is worth. An example to clarify: Sabrina Harman, US Army, was a follower. She would not have been in jail for torture if she had been a leader. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabrina_Harman

Matthew Zirbel, CIA torturer, was smarter than Sabrina. He destroyed his pictures of torture. He didn't send them home, like Sabrina did. All we have are words on paper to describe what he did. He got rich, very unlike Sabrina: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/15/charmed-life-cia-torture
r


The CIA, being full of leaders, was smart enough to destroy their torture videos and photos. The visual record we've got is Sabrina's pictures :
http://ushypocrisy.com/2013/04/28/lest-we-forget-the-horrifying-images
-from-abu-ghraib-prison-in-iraq-graphic-imagery
/

AURaptor volunteered, unasked by the privileged group in power, to speak for them.

Authoritarians are divided into leaders and their followers. AURaptor is unpaid, which makes AURaptor a follower. The leaders are stingy with their followers. Followers never amount to anything. They don't get paid with a house on Martha's Vineyard, a Hawaiian bungalow, or a lodge in Aspen. AURaptor is in the lowest caste of Authoritarians, the wanna-be caste.

The Authoritarians at http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 3:43 PM

JONGSSTRAW



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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 4:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


'Enhanced interrogation' is just one of those military terms that are used to soften or disguise the nasty actions of one's own side. Of course it means torture, but it's the code, just like these

friendly fire - oops we killed our own people
collatoral damage - oops we killed a whole bunch of civilians
pre-emptive strike - we invaded a country
enemy combatant - we can avoid protocols of the Geneva Convention demands of prisoners of war


Ah gotta love semantics.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 4:20 PM

JONGSSTRAW


Libtard


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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 5:21 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Jongs, you can and should get help. Really.

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Wednesday, December 17, 2014 6:35 PM

JONGSSTRAW



Magonsbitch is just a fucking big mouth thread whore.

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Thursday, December 18, 2014 11:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MAGONS HAHAHA, .... yes, JSS needs help, and here he is! Conveniently showing us all just how much he does! Sometimes JSS is so right on the money with some things, but then.... yikes!


I found this on Zerohedge
------------------------

59% Of Americans Support Post-9/11 Torture – Propaganda, Cultural Sickness, Or Both?

Submitted by Mike Krieger via Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

Quote:

Ever since the torture report was released last week, U.S. television outlets have endlessly featured American torturers and torture proponents. But there was one group that was almost never heard from: the victims of their torture, not even the ones recognized by the U.S. Government itself as innocent, not even the family members of the ones they tortured to death. Whether by design (most likely) or effect, this inexcusable omission radically distorts coverage.


Whenever America is forced to confront its heinous acts, the central strategy is to disappear the victims, render them invisible. That’s what robs them of their humanity: it’s the process of dehumanization. That, in turns, is what enables American elites first to support atrocities, and then, when forced to reckon with them, tell themselves that – despite some isolated and well-intentioned bad acts – they are still really good, elevated, noble, admirable people. It’s hardly surprising, then, that a Washington Post/ABC News poll released this morning found that a large majority of Americans believe torture is justified even when you call it “torture.” Not having to think about actual human victims makes it easy to justify any sort of crime.

– From Glenn Greenwald’s latest piece: U.S. TV Provides Ample Platform for American Torturers, but None to Their Victims

After reading about a new poll that shows 59% of Americans support post 9/11 torture, I’ve spent the entire morning thinking about what it means. Does this confirm the total degeneration of American culture into a collective of chicken-hawk, unthinking, statist war-mongering automatons? Alternatively, does it merely reflect the effectiveness of corporate-government propaganda? Is it a combination of both? How does the poll spilt by age group?

These are all important questions to which I do not have definitive answers, but I have some thoughts I’d like to share. First, here are some of the observations from the Washington Post:

A majority of Americans believe that the harsh interrogation techniques used on terrorism suspects after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were justified, even as about half the public says the treatment amounted to torture, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.

By an almost 2-1 margin, or 59-to-31?percent, those interviewed support the CIA’s brutal methods, with the vast majority of supporters saying they produced valuable intelligence.

In general, 58?percent say the torture of suspected terrorists can be justified “often” or “sometimes.”

The new poll comes on the heels of a scathing Senate Intelligence Committee investigation into the CIA’s detention and interrogation program, which President Obama ended in 2009. The report concluded that controversial interrogation techniques — including waterboarding detainees, placing them in stress positions and keeping them inside confinement boxes — were not an effective means of acquiring intelligence.


This is important, because despite the Senate Report showing torture was not effective in acquiring intelligence (see: Revelations from the Torture Report – CIA Lies, Nazi Methods and the $81 Million No-Bid Torture Contract), the American public thinks it was. This is the power of mainstream media spin and propaganda.

Fifty-three percent of Americans say the CIA’s harsh interrogation of suspected terrorists produced important information that could not have been obtained any other way, while 31?percent say it did not.

In a CBS poll released Monday, nearly seven in 10 considered waterboarding torture, but about half said the technique and others are, at times, justified. Fifty-seven percent said harsh interrogation techniques can provide information that can prevent terrorist attacks.


While the above is disturbing, if I felt that the culture is lost beyond hope and that my fellow American is akin to a zombified sociopath with no hope of awakening, I wouldn’t be writing on this website. I would have renounced my citizenship long ago and moved somewhere else. In contrast, I think there’s a lot to fight for in these United States and I think the war for freedom, civil rights and the rule of law can and will prevail. After all, I was admittedly more or less a zombie during the years immediately following 9/11 and for most of my time on Wall Street. If I was able to make such a profound transition (and countless of my friends have as well ), then there is always hope.

I continue to think that the vast majority of human beings are not particularly ethical or unethical. They are basically somewhere in the middle and thus very easily molded by propaganda. History pretty much proves this to be the case. My sentiments on the subject can be best summarized by something I wrote back in 2012 in the post: Humanity is Rising.

I have always felt that human disposition lies on a bell curve. So let’s say for the sake of argument that 1% is just extraordinarily wicked, selfish, mentally deranged so along the lines of a Stalin like character. Then let’s say the 1% on the other side is gentle, enlightened, and moral almost to a fault so a Gandhi like character. Then the masses in the middle are not of any extreme disposition in either way, but are easily malleable and generally just “go along to get along.” Well as far as recorded human history is concerned, the 1% of nasty, immoral parasites have dominated humanity through the various playbooks strategies that I and many others have outlined. The 1% on the other side have generally been silenced or ostracized systematically by the control freak “leaders” and if that fails to work, they are simply murdered. I mean even up until the 20th Century think about the kinds of guys that have been murdered. Gandhi. Martin Luther King Jr. John Lennon. Oh and if we want to go back a couple thousand years there was Jesus. The list is endless. Guys that talk about a higher level of consciousness and love and actually make inroads in society are murdered. Yet no one ever seems to take a shot at the genocidal, sociopaths that run our lives through politics and banking (nor would I ever want that as I do not condone violence as a solution to a violent system). Interesting isn’t it? I think it is pretty obvious why this is the case. The 1% on the decent side of the bell curve aren’t murderers. The guys on the other side of it are.

While certainly not giving the middle of the bell curve a pass for its unquestioned apathy and ignorance, I am convinced that the key variable here is information, which is why it is so imperative to conduct alternative narratives, and is why I spend most of my time working on this site. Glenn Greenwald’s recent piece in the Intercept helped to reinforce the impact of media propaganda in shaping public perceptions. Here are some excerpts:

Ever since the torture report was released last week, U.S. television outlets have endlessly featured American torturers and torture proponents. But there was one group that was almost never heard from: the victims of their torture, not even the ones recognized by the U.S. Government itself as innocent, not even the family members of the ones they tortured to death. Whether by design (most likely) or effect, this inexcusable omission radically distorts coverage.

Whenever America is forced to confront its heinous acts, the central strategy is to disappear the victims, render them invisible. That’s what robs them of their humanity: it’s the process of dehumanization. That, in turns, is what enables American elites first to support atrocities, and then, when forced to reckon with them, tell themselves that – despite some isolated and well-intentioned bad acts – they are still really good, elevated, noble, admirable people. It’s hardly surprising, then, that a Washington Post/ABC News poll released this morning found that a large majority of Americans believe torture is justified even when you call it “torture.” Not having to think about actual human victims makes it easy to justify any sort of crime.

This self-glorifying ritual can be sustained only by completely suppressing America’s victims. If you don’t hear from the human beings who are tortured, it’s easy to pretend nothing truly terrible happened. That’s how the War on Terror generally has been “reported” for 13 years and counting: by completely silencing those whose lives are destroyed or ended by U.S. crimes. That’s how the illusion gets sustained.

Thus, we sometimes hear about drones (usually to celebrate the Great Kills) but almost never hear from their victims: the surviving family members of innocents whom the U.S. kills or those forced to live under the traumatizing regime of permanently circling death robots. We periodically hear about the vile regimes the U.S. props up for decades, but almost never from the dissidents and activists imprisoned, tortured and killed by those allied tyrants. Most Americans have heard the words “rendition” and “Guantanamo” but could not name a single person victimized by them, let alone recount what happened to them, because they almost never appear on American television.

It would be incredibly easy, and incredibly effective, for U.S. television outlets to interview America’s torture victims. There is certainly no shortage of them. Groups such as the ACLU, Center for Constitutional Rights, Reprieve, and CAGE UK represent many of them. Many are incredibly smart and eloquent, and have spent years contemplating what happened to them and navigating the aftermath on their lives.

I’ve written previously about the transformative experience of meeting and hearing directly from the victims of the abuses by your own government. That human interaction converts an injustice from an abstraction into a deeply felt rage and disgust. That’s precisely why the U.S. media doesn’t air those stories directly from the victims themselves: because it would make it impossible to maintain the pleasing fairy tales about “who we really are.”

When I was in Canada in October, I met Maher Arar (pictured above) for the second time, went to his home, had breakfast with his wife (also pictured above) and two children. In 2002, Maher, a Canadian citizen of Syrian descent who worked as an engineer, was traveling back home to Ottawa when he was abducted by the U.S. Government at JFK Airport, heldincommunicado and interrogated for weeks, then “rendered” to Syria where the U.S. arranged to have him brutally tortured by Assad’s regime. He was kept in a coffin-like cell for 10 months and savagely tortured until even his Syrian captors were convinced that he was completely innocent. He was then uncermoniously released back to his life in Canada as though nothing had happened.

When he sued the U.S. government, subservient U.S. courts refused even to hear his case, accepting the Obama DOJ’s claim that it was too secret to safely adjudicate.

There are hundreds if not thousands of Maher Arars the U.S. media could easily and powerfully interview. McClatchy this week detailed the story of Khalid al Masri, a German citizen whom the U.S. Government abducted in Macedonia, tortured, and then dumped on a road when they decided he wasn’t guilty of anything (US courts also refused to hear his case on secrecy grounds). The detainees held without charges, tortured, and then unceremoniously released from Guantanamo and Bagram are rarely if ever heard from on U.S. television, even when the U.S. Government is forced to admit that they were guilty of nothing.

This is not to say that merely putting these victims on television would fundamentally change how these issues are perceived. Many Americans would look at the largely non-white and foreign faces recounting their abuses, or take note of their demonized religion and ethnicity, and react for that reason with indifference or even support for what was done to them.


I’m not so sure this is the case, and in any event, we can’t know unless we try.

Keeping those victims silenced and invisible is the biggest favor the U.S. television media could do for the government over which they claim to act as watchdogs. So that’s what they do: dutifully, eagerly and with very rare exception.

Watching television is easy and addicting, particularly if you came of age before the internet. Television news is simply horrifying. On those rare instances when I catch a glimpse of it at the gym, I feel as if I have entered a bizarro world of idiocy and shamelessness.

Nevertheless, it remains true that a lot of the pre-internet generation still receives intellectual marching orders from the idiot-box. This is why I’m so curious to see how the Washington Post poll splits by age bracket. Either way, hope is never lost and the torch of liberty must remain lit and carried forward by those who care. That’s precisely what I try to do here at Liberty Blitzkrieg, and I ask you to do the same in whatever capacity you can.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-17/new-poll-finds-59-americans-s
upport-post-911-torture-%E2%80%93-propaganda-cultural-sickness
-


--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

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