REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Accident or Not? Malaysian Airliner shot down.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Thursday, February 9, 2023 09:43
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Monday, July 21, 2014 8:28 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I'm not entirely sure anything I said was much different to this.

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Monday, July 21, 2014 9:07 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:



This is a constant with Sig and 1kiki. They deserve it and more. If it was your country that came under attack by these two with every world event, you would not be so generous. I remember how uppity you suggested I was because I was an American when we discussed different ways of governing. I don't think it would take much for you to go off on someone speaking ill of your country. Don't judge me for defending mine.

(It is nice to hear from you. It's a shame we don't meet here more often.)



I don't remember getting 'uppity' and I don't remember feeling like you attacked my country. I think the discussion was about different kinds of government.

I would have thought that the whole point of this board was to discuss and yes, criticise actions, military and economic and the rest that occur throughout the world. Criticism of America's foreign policy by Americans (or anyone else for that matter) does not seem as outrageous to me as it clearly does to you.

You're (nb you are) living in a world power, people are going to dislike your interventions in the world. As long as people are discussing your actions, not blowing you up, I'd say 'suck it up princess' ;)



With Sig and 1kiki it is more like slander than a discussion. There is a difference. With those two it is always one sided while they deny the wrong doing of there favored states. Let's also remember Sig goes off on delusional rants that are pure speculation that demean this country. That's when 1kiki jumps in and seconds the motion. Pure garbage.

I did not say you got uppity. I said you accused me of being that way. You did not use that word of course. Typical American thing if I remember correctly.

Again, I feel if you read something slandering your country you would respond harshly. Would you not?

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Monday, July 21, 2014 10:13 AM

THGRRI

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Monday, July 21, 2014 10:54 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Again, I feel if you read something slandering your country you would respond harshly. Would you not?



Meh. I read it all the time. I agree with it a lot too. I'm critical of my government, of many aspects of my nation.


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Monday, July 21, 2014 11:28 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Quote:

Originally posted by THGRRI:


Again, I feel if you read something slandering your country you would respond harshly. Would you not?



Meh. I read it all the time. I agree with it a lot too. I'm critical of my government, of many aspects of my nation.




I get that but on these threads it is a constant for us here. There are periods where it is relentless, false, slanderous and hateful and it needs to be addressed.


AURAPTOR
On a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:00 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


MAL4 - there ARE hard facts. Whatever happened really happened, happened, and it was hard in all senses: physical, ethical, psychological. There was nothing fuzzy about it. Or, as RUE used to say- "The universe isn't confused, WE are" Those FACTS, however, are not going to be made plain to us mere peons, and so it's up to us to figure out what the real, hard facts are.

When you do that, you have to keep an open mind. What our fearless leaders tell us... you have to give it the sniff test... Do they have a reason to lie, and in what direction? Does it make sense? Is it consistent with other data, especially verifiable data?
Quote:

Seeing to the truth is also about assessing the trustworthiness of the source. And that can only be determined by lining one source up with information from a separate, purely unrelated source, and having a history of knowing which is more trustworthy. This is not science. It is purely subjective, and here is where our biases cause problems. Here is where the blinders go over our eyes: who do you believe: Bush, Obama, or Putin?
Generically? Nobody. I don't believe in "belief", and I don't trust ANYONE.

I DO have evidence that Obama has lied - repeatedly- about matters of national significance, on everything from Syria and Benghazi to NSA's practice of hoovering up everyone's data and the drone program. So I think that my caution on Obama is not just generic, it's very specifically well-founded. Obama lied - that's a fact- and he continues to lie.

This isn't a conclusion I came to lightly. I VOTED FOR Obama the first time around, altho Rue (who I know IRL) cautioned me against it. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for most of his first term. I defended him here, on this very board. He had to EARN my disgust ... and boy oh boy, did he ever! Now, whenever I hear that professorial smug tone I kind of cringe, just like I did whenever Bush came on with his faux Texas accent, and Reagan came on with his wheezy "folksy charm". I cringe, I really do. I can't help it.


Quote:

Sig, being a pure scientist, may understand little of this. She shows no ability to use fuzzy logic, the process by which our brains actually function.
I use fuzzy logic all of the time, it's just that my fuzzy logic and yours aren't the same. I first look at the motivations of the various sources, the timing and tempo of the news that's released, the GAPS in the information (what isn't being said is just as important as what IS being said), and significant probative details - if I can find them. That's why the pictures from the Odessa Trades Union building were so important - they contained a wealth of detail that would be nearly impossible to fake under such a short timeframe, and were corroborated by videos taken multiple sources from outside.

Quote:

Example: from the start I have no trust no Putin and his involvement in all the Ukraine matter. Sig has no trust of Obama, but had some idea that Putin had rational, perhaps even honorable reasons to do what he's done.
From the start, I said this was all about Sevastopol, which is Russia's major naval base which leads to the Mediterranean. Also, Russia will not tolerate advancement of NATO (and it's missiles) into east Ukraine, if it can help it.

Quote:

Our differing mentalities explain a lot about the very different fuzzy logic we've brought in to the present matter. I am quickest to see Putin as the liar. Sig jumps on Obama. Neither man is 100% truthful, but one is far worse, and I think that in the long run the truth will out. Sig, will you accept that result, if it happens? Seems you're already packing away in this thread as you see the evidence mount, the fuzzy logic that was obvious to me and countless other days ago might be coming home to you....
So far, Putin has said NOTHING about this, except very general statements. It's hard to "lie" when you haven't said anything of substance, because there is nothing to retract. So if you can demonstrate me Putin's "lies" later ...and yanno- be specific, quote him - then I will accept that he lied about the matter. Right now, he's playing a very careful game.

What YOU think of as "fuzzy logic" really isn't logic, it's conditioned response. Which stampeded most of us into supporting our invasion of Afghanistan, led to our invasion of Iraq, and led us to blaming Assad for the sarin gas attack.

Quote:

But hey Sig - don't think I missed it. I posed very specific questions to you. Rather than replying in any detail re how Obama is lying, you claimed this whole thing needed a rest.
I answered your questions already, you just don't like the answer. I will repeat the answer: My mind is still open to the possibility that Obama is lying. It's possible that everything he says is a lie. The truth might out, but if the truth was that Obama was lying, I doubt you'd accept it.

Quote:

Hey - How much head time do you devote to the possible reality where Obama is NOT lying? I've yet to see any of that here. Or you exploration of he possibility that Putin is lying though he teeth. You never do pay mind to that possibility.
Why should I devote time to that? YOU'VE got that covered!

Here's a suggestion: I'll take you side or the argument if you take mine. I think I could do a bang-up job, I really do. Sound fair?


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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:06 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

...Sig
Those FACTS, however, are not going to be made plain to us mere peons, and so it's up to us to figure out what the real, hard facts are.



That is right Sig and your facts are delusional. This incident and your refusal to acknowledge what the rest of the world is saying is pretty good evidence to what we have been saying to you hear in these threads. You are biased and see things through the eyes of the Russian propaganda machine.

Russian reporter quits, is sick of lying to public.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Russia-Ukraine-reporter-quits/2014/07
/18/id/583551


Quote:

...Sig

Here's a suggestion: I'll take you side or the argument if you take mine. I think I could do a bang-up job, I really do. Sound fair?



..................................I'll take you up on that.



AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:10 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


THUGR- Several threads back, you basically put your hand to forehead and swooned over the terrible, terrible things that must be done to keep us safe from all of the evil out there.

I call bullshit.

Since when does it benefit us to destabilize and impoverish nations; fund, arm, and train jihadists (as we've been doing since the mujahideen in Afghanistan), neo-Nazis and tyrants everywhere ?

Our armed forces aren't being used to preserve our freedoms, they're being used to secure oil and enforce the petrodollar. Sorry to say.

Quote:

I'll take you up on that.
Okay, you first. mainly, because I have other things to do. Gotta get off the inet and back to real life.

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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:12 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR- Several threads back, you basically put your hand to forehead and swooned over the terrible, terrible things that must be done to keep us safe from all of the evil out there.

I call bullshit.

Since when does it benefit us to destabilize and impoverish nations; fund, arm, and train jihadists (as we've been doing since the mujahideen in Afghanistan), neo-Nazis and tyrants everywhere ?

Our armed forces aren't being used to preserve our freedoms, they're being used to secure oil and enforce the petrodollar. Sorry to say.



......................................Let's switch sides. Great IDEA!


AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Here's an argument for your NEW side of the coin:

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of
Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukrain
e-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1




Go for it!

----------------
How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Monday, July 21, 2014 12:18 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Here's an argument for your NEW side of the coin:

Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of
Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukrain
e-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1


Go for it!

----------------
b]




It does not work if your first post is going to support your beliefs and is a suggestion to me how I should respond against mine. Try again....


AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 1:06 PM

THGRRI


Hello Sig, are you there? I can't wait to get started. Let's start small and go from there Ok?


AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 2:13 PM

THGRRI


It's OK Sig, I may be the only one here who understands you can't argue the other side. It would kill you.

Subjective writing can become excessive, with lies becoming so intricate, so extreme and interwoven that they almost blur the line between one’s concept of reality and fantasy. Individuals who engage in extensive subjective writing are pathological.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Maybe some other time.


AURAPTOR
on a good day

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Monday, July 21, 2014 7:18 PM

THGRRI


http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/malaysian-airlines-flight-17-shot-sa-1
1-missile-24644246?tab=9482931§ion=4765066


When the Russians shot down the Korean airliner they confiscated the bodies. let's see if these bodies head for Russia when all are collected. I don't think they'll do it but who knows at this point.

It's obvious they looted the passengers stealing all they could. Just a bunch of animals.

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Monday, July 21, 2014 10:45 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/21/ukrainian-su-25-jet-near-malaisian-flight-m
h17-rostov-air-traffic-control
/

Ukrainian SU-25 Jet Near Malaisian Flight MH17 – Rostov Air Traffic Control

nsnbc : A Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet ascended towards a distance of 3 – 5 km from Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17, said the Head of the Main Operations Department of the Russian Army’s General Staff, referring to Rostov Air Traffic Control. The presence of a Su-25 fighter jet adds to the possible scenarios which could have caused the fatal crash that cost 298 lives. Russian satellite images show Ukrainian Buk missile systems, which increased radar strength, in the region, say Russian military sources.

Previous reports revealed that Ukrainian military deployed BUK missile systems to the region near the crash site only days before July 17. Questions have been raised whether the Ukrainian Interior Ministry or the Ministry of Defense had command over these surface-to air-missiles. nsnbc is in the process of independently investigating these reports, as well as questions about Ukrainian air traffic control, which assigned the lower than usual altitude of 33,000 ft instead of the 35,000 ft requested when the pilots of MH17 filed their flight plan.

nsnbc is also independently investigating who was responsible for changing the flight route to the North on July 16, and even further North on July 17, the day of the fatal incident, when the pilots of MH17 appear to have been directed to fly right above closed airspace and a combat zone.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, July 21, 2014 11:18 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/u-n-security-coun
cil-demands-malaysia-airlines-flight-17-probe-n161501

U.N. Security Council Demands Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Probe
Russia had withheld support as it argued against Ukrainian authorities from taking a lead role in the probe. It wanted a U.N. agency to assume that role. But the Russians capitulated as it faced growing international scorn.



Which tracks with what I've been reading. The day after the crash July 18 Putin called for an impartial international investigation.


http://mashable.com/2014/07/19/live-updates-mh17-saturday/
Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an immediate cease-fire and direct talks between Kyiv and the separatists in the wake of the disaster and for an impartial investigation



And the next day July 19 he and Merkel issued a joint statement of agreement about the same thing.


http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-07-19/news/51744736_
1_eastern-ukraine-kremlin-statement-osce

Malaysian Airlines MH17 crash: Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin agree on international probe of MH17 crash



And again on July 21

http://www.todayonline.com/world/russia-says-mh17-probe-should-be-done
-international-community-not-ukraine



Putin has been publicly calling for impartial international investigation from the beginning. That makes me think he had some specific condition he wanted as a characteristic of 'impartial international'. For example, not led by the Ukraine, the US, or Britain. SO - reading between the lines, I think there's a lot of wrangling going on as to the exact leadership and composition of the investigative team.

I'll be waiting to see how EXACTLY the team is headed and composed. From that I'll make a tentative assumption about what they're 'supposed' to find.





SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Monday, July 21, 2014 11:35 PM

THGRRI



1kiki, look what else I found at your link. So this is where you and Sig shop for all your bullshit. I recognize a lot of stuff Sig posts. What a mess.

So if I read this right the headquarters for ISIS in the American Embassy in Ankara.

I don't care what you claim , just like your posts are twisted lies, there ain't no way you two are Americans. Ain't no way.


U.S. Embassy in Ankara Headquarter for ISIS War on Iraq – Hariri Insider

Iraq Turkey USA

"Christof Lehmann (nsnbc) : The green light for the use of ISIS brigades to carve up Iraq, widen the Syria conflict into a greater Middle East war and to throw Iran off-balance was given behind closed doors at the Atlantic Council meeting in Turkey, in November 2013, told a source close to Saudi – Lebanese billionaire Saad Hariri, adding that the U.S. Embassy in Ankara is the operation’s headquarter".

http://nsnbc.me/2014/06/22/u-s-embassy-in-ankara-headquarter-for-isis-
war-on-iraq-hariri-insider
/



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Monday, July 21, 2014 11:38 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Care to address WHAT I POSTED?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:11 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Care to address WHAT I POSTED?



Because I have had enough of you I will address it again this way. You stupid peace of shit. I addressed it by showing your source is a twisted propaganda machine. Look what I posted that I also got from your link. "ISIS headquarters is located in an American Embassy". How fucking stupid are you that you don't see that others will see what a complete fucking moron you are. Try selling it somewhere else comrade.

Here is another one "that's under current" suggests America was behind shooting down the plane because Europe would not fall in line with tougher sanctions. What better way to push the Europeans than by shooting down a plane full of them and blaming Russia. You tired piece of shit.



US Aims at Blowing EU-Russia Rift with Downed Airliner

"What would it take for the Americans to pull the Europeans into a more aggressive line?

Within hours of the Malaysian airliner smashing into the wheat fields in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border on Thursday evening, American official sources began drip-feeding their trusted news outlets with a narrative implicating Russia".

http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/20/us-aims-blowing-eu-russia-rift-downed-airli
ner
/





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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:13 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


The first two sentences and two errors of logic. I presume you don't address the topic because you can't.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:18 AM

THGRRI


Hey Signym, come collect your trash.


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:30 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Are you waiting for pickup?




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:34 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G, would it kill you to post the truth once in a while? From the REAL Wikipedia

Quote:

Zero Hedge is a news website, content aggregator, and collection of blogs by contributing editors. It reports on economics, Wall Street, and the financial sector and is credited with bringing the controversial practice of flash trading to public attention in 2009 via a series of posts alleging that Goldman Sachs' access to flash order information allowed the firm to gain unfair profits. The news portion of the site is written by a group of editors who collectively write under the pseudonym "Tyler Durden", a character from the novel & film Fight Club.

Profile

Zero Hedge was founded in January 2009.[2] Posts are signed "Tyler Durden," a character in the Chuck Palahniuk book and movie Fight Club,[3] reflecting the news site's activist posture.[2] Despite speculation that "Tyler Durden" is a pseudonym of Daniel Ivandjiiski,[3][4] who was penalized for insider trading in New York in September 2008,[5] Ivandjiiski denies being a founder of Zero Hedge. Rather, he says he is one of several writers contributing to the site under the pseudonym.[5] In an interview, "Durden" said there were four editors at Zero Hedge[2] but another editor says there are up to 40.[note 1][3] Editors have experience in various areas of finance and operations, differing from journalists who become experts about finance as they write about it, but have no practical work experience in the sector.[2] The online newspaper publishes anonymously to protect the editors from retaliation for dissident speech.[2] Durden maintains this protects its integrity, objectivity, and independence, as well. Durden cites the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and the 1995 United States Supreme Court case, McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Commission,[2] which upheld anonymity as a right of free speech.[6][note 2]
Readership and influence

By September 2009, Zero Hedge had begun drawing more traffic than more established financial websites[5] with 333,000 unique visitors a month, impressing even those[who?] who say the news site is full of conspiracy theory and "apocalyptic world view".[4] Durden says two-thirds of its readers are from Wall Street.[2] According to Quantcast, Zero Hedge has as of 2012 a monthly global traffic of 1.8 million people.[7] Under the name Tyler Durden, Ivandjiiski was interviewed on Bloomberg Radio[3][8] and Zero Hedge has been quoted in the Columbia Journalism Review.[9]

In December 2012, Bank of America blocked its employees' access to Zero Hedge.[10]

Zero Hedge celebrated one billion views in June 2013.[11]

Bill Gross, the head of PIMCO, is an avid Zero Hedge reader. On August 9, 2013 he tweeted, "Gross: Strategists/writers I follow? Dalio, Durden, Bianco, Arnott, Aitken, Santelli, Grant, Grantham, Inker, Marks, Quaintenance & Brodsky."[12]

Exposing Goldman Sachs

Zero Hedge is credited with bringing flash trading to public attention in 2009 with a series of posts alleging that Goldman Sachs had access to flash order information, allowing the firm to gain unfair profits.[3] It used New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) data to detect Goldman's flash trading advantage. The site contends that Goldman Sachs' alumni are at the center of a powerful cabal and that the solution is "a purifying market crash that leads to the elimination of the big banks altogether and the reinstatement of genuine free-market capitalism" - "Dow Zero."[3] The site drew the attention of the mainstream financial media and became a news source for reporters. Bloomberg News published stories based on Zero Hedge’s posts, such as “Goldman Sachs Loses Grip on Its Doomsday Machine,” by columnist Jonathan Weil.[3][13] The New York Times ran a front-page story on the high-frequency trading, detailing how it translated into billions of dollars of profit for Goldman Sachs and hedge funds.[14] The NYSE has since made a rule change and no longer releases the data used by Zero Hedge.[3]

Matt Taibbi, in his book Griftopia, cites Zero Hedge in the last chapter as accurately assessing the level of corruption in the banking industry and credits its inside advantage. He questions why the mainstream financial media did not earlier detect the corruption at Goldman Sachs. Taibbi writes:[15]
“ Right around that same time, there were three media stories that helped focus a swirl of seriously negative attention on the bank. My piece was one, New York magazine's Joe Hagan wrote another, and the third was a series of stories by a heretofore little-known blogger who went by the nom de plume of "Tyler Durden" on a blog called Zero Hedge.

Durden's blog was written in an impenetrable Wall Street jargon, and the man himself – later outed by nosy reporters as an Eastern European trader who had been sanctioned by FINRA – was intimidating even to Wall Street insiders. "Zero Hedge, man, he makes my head hurt" was a typical comment from my Wall Street sources.

Beginning in early 2009 Durden had been on a jihad about Goldman, having sifted through trading data to make what he insisted was an airtight case proving that the bank's high-frequency or "flash" trading desk was engaged in some sort of large-scale manipulation of the New York Stock Exchange. Durden drew his conclusions by scrupulously analyzing trading data the NYSE released each week. So what happened? Naturally, the NYSE on June 24 changed its rules and stopped releasing the data, seemingly to protect Goldman from Zero Hedge's meddling.

I have always said that Zero Hedge is apocalyptic... every story seems to be about the end of something big. But they get their news FAST, and their news items are never wrong.

Go suck an egg, you moron. No wonder you're always five steps behind.


----------
How many of you thought that Saddam had WMD?
Who among you thought that Assad used chemical weapons in Syria?
How many of you were surprised by 9-11?
Did any of you predict the meltdown of 2008?
Who thought that Russia invaded Georgia unprovoked?

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:36 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Yes, I'm waiting for that "bulky item" truck to come by and pick up this thing called THUGR.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:51 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Pervert truth: How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy
Published time: July 21, 2014 22:23

VIDEO

http://r9---sn-a5m7ln7k.googlevideo.com/videoplayback?ms=au&fexp=9
02408%2C914072%2C916625%2C923345%2C924220%2C924222%2C927622%2C929305%2C930008%2C934024%2C934030%2C945306%2C946023&ratebypass=yes&mt=1405986602&sver=3&itag=43&id=o-AAek9B_w38DRUJmZ-12LFTFuAsaE3Iwv-EHsnxXQyUt0&mv=m&upn=Eg25NI5gyOk&key=yt5&source=youtube&mws=yes&initcwndbps=11684000&ipbits=0&sparams=id%2Cinitcwndbps%2Cip%2Cipbits%2Citag%2Cratebypass%2Csource%2Cupn%2Cexpire&signature=8EC4F1889EBCCA9EC26F78EA1AF6B02CECB3D65A.DE5C47D383CBEE84AFEA6E217BCC96982D65E8B4&ip=128.125.104.135&expire=1406008800&signature=undefined





A member of the self-defense forces holds up a stuffed animal as others look on at
the site of the crash of a Malaysian airliner carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to
Kuala Lumpur in Grabove, in east Ukraine, on July 18, 2014. (AFP Photo / Dominique
Faget)
Twitter is quick, but too quick sometimes – recently it burst with photos of an evil
Ukrainian militiaman who took a teddy bear from the victim of Malaysia plane crash
as a trophy. But the full video shows he was just paying the tribute to the dead.

The footage shows that one of the members of self-defense troops suddenly saw a teddy
bear which apparently belonged to a child who was among the 298 passenger on board the
Malaysian jet.

“We want those bastards to see whom they shot down,” the man said, “Do you see?”
meaning that there were innocent children who died in the crash.

-----------------
A photo signed “pro-Russian fighter holds up a toy found among the debris at the crash
site of MH17” has been used by such major media outlets as the BBC and NBC. Some
outlets went as far as to say that ‘pro-Russian fighters’ were collecting the
belongings of passengers of the doomed Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight.


“Pro-Russian Militants Pick Through Debris at Jet Crash Site,” wrote NBC and supported
the headline with the photo. The internet users posted this photo saying the
self-defense forces with OSCE observers were “picking through #MH17 jet debris.”

Some Twitter users called out for a ‘response’:

Ukraine’s news outlets were crueler to the members of self-defense forces at the scene
of a crashed plane; they called the man terrorist who stole the toy.

“The militants are taking the toys of the children, the tourists’ maps, the notebooks
of the businessmen,” wrote Ukraine’s sans census news website.

"Terrorist of people’s Republic of Donetsk with a trophy. [He is] ready for the
negotiations,” comments Ukraine’s news portal 24ua.me.

What really happened?

In reality, the photo was taken during a visit of 30 OSCE international observers who
arrived at the scene of the crashed plane to investigate the area. Among the OSCE group
were the members of self-defense forces in Donetsk region who accompanied them.

The footage shows that one of the members of self-defense troops suddenly saw a teddy
bear which apparently belonged to a child who was among the 298 passenger on board the
Malaysian jet.

“We want those bastards to see who they shot down,” the man said, “Do you see?” meaning
that there were innocent children who died in the crash.

Then he carefully put the toy back to a heap of other items that used to belong after
several days of waiting in vain, when no international experts managed to leave Kiev
to see the crash site
, to the passengers. After that he took off his cap and marked
himself with a sign of the cross paying the tribute to the memory of the victims of the
catastrophe.



A member of Donetsk self-defense forces takes off his cap and crosses himself to pay
tribute to the victims of the Malaysia plane crash (screenshot from infrocorpus)

The MH17 flight crash site is a vast territory, from 10 to 50 square kilometers
according to various sources, as the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 came apart kilometers
above the surface and the debris rained down on the fields around the village of
Grabovo.

That explains why Donetsk People’s Republic emergency services opted to collect the
located belongings of the passengers from the territory and bring them to one spot. If
not taken to a single place, they could be lost later, as mapping such a huge number of
fragments and items appears to be a monumental task.

Though international expert community insisted on not touching the bodies, after
several days of waiting in vain, when no international experts managed to leave Kiev to
see the crash site, where daily temperature reached +30 Celsius, the self-defense
forces opted to collect the decomposing bodies and loaded them on to a refrigerated
train.


Now that first Dutch forensic experts – first international investigators - have
arrived in eastern Ukraine to assess the aftermath of the Malaysian plane crash, they
will finally get a first glimpse on the crash site and probably share their preliminary
findings with the media.


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:02 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Dutch expert says Ukraine body recovery team 'did a hell of a job'

Quote:

(Reuters) - The Dutch head of a team sent to identify the victims of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 praised the Ukrainian recovery workers who collected hundreds of bodies from a giant swathe of land in a war zone for doing a "hell of a job".

Peter van Vliet, leader of a 3-man team of Dutch body identification experts, the first international investigators to visit the crash area, said his priority would be getting hundreds of bodies now stored in refrigerated rail cars to a location where they can be identified and sent home.

Despite reports that some of the bodies may have been looted and were never properly secured during days lying out in summer sun, van Vliet expressed admiration for the recovery crews that gathered them.

"I'm very impressed about the work that was done over here," he said after inspecting the main crash site, where bodies were still being found a day earlier pinned under chunks of aircraft wreckage. Citing the heat and the scale of the site, he said: "I think they did a hell of a job in a hell of a place."

Asked how he felt as a Dutchman at a site where so many of his countrymen were killed, he said he had goosebumps despite the heat.



MORE AT...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/us-ukraine-crisis-recovery-i
dUSKBN0FQ14Q20140721


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:07 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Oh, one more thing...

MAL4

I've answered your questions several times. You may not like the answers, but I answered them.

OTOH, I've asked you several times to produce links for information that YOU claimed was 'all over the news'. I went to several websites and couldn't find it, and QUITE FRANKLY I find it suspicious that this news item -which came out with trumpets blaring, can no longer be found. So please, bring up those links IF YOU CAN.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 2:46 AM

AGENTROUKA


Rebels in eastern Ukraine have handed over two flight-data recorders from the downed MH17 plane to Malaysian experts.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28413467

Quote:

The head of the Malaysian delegation told reporters that the recorders were "in good condition".

The handover followed talks between the rebel commander and self-styled Prime Minister of the Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Borodai and the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak, Mr Najib said in statement.

He also said those talks led to the rebels agreeing to allow the bodies to be transported to Kharkiv and international investigators to access the area.

"In recent days, there were times I wanted to give greater voice to the anger and grief that the Malaysian people feel and that I feel," he said.

"But sometimes, we must work quietly in the service of a better outcome."



So far, so promising.

In spite of my initial impression that only the separatists could display incompetence on the level that would lead to something like this, I'm leaning toward reserving judgment at this point. Time will, hopefully, tell.

(I still don't buy that anyone did this intentionally.)

But so far, it makes perfect sense that the separatists would want to hand over these recorders to the "rightful owner", a reasonably neutral party.

Or am I reading this wrong?

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 3:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


AGENT

What I get out of all of this is that the Ukrainian separatists were told to leave the bodies alone, but that the international investigators were held up in Kiev

So while the investigators were stuck elsewhere, the separatists finally couldn't stand the disrespect, picked up the bodies (and, no, they didn't "loot" them, see the VIDEO above), put them in refrigerated rail cars, and sent them on their way to the Nederlands with Nederlander investigators who had been avoidably detained.

Quote:

I've seen various opinions on their value. I think at first it was more of if someone is trying to hide them then that shows guilt.
Meanwhile, the black boxes were waiting in Donetsk for someone besides Kiev to pick them up. (That's why the rebels said they were holding them- to prevent tampering by Kiev.) While that, there was fighting in Donetsk- possibly a spec ops team sent to snatch them, but they were ultimately sent safely to Malaysia.

Russia has satellite pictures of Ukrainan BUK missile installation, plus radar screen grabs of fighter jets near the airliner. What I've read elsewhere - but have no opinion on the credibility- is that
Quote:

The dog-not-barking question on the catastrophe over Ukraine is: what did the U.S. surveillance satellite imagery show? It’s hard to believe that – with the attention that U.S. intelligence has concentrated on eastern Ukraine for the past half year that the alleged trucking of several large Buk anti-aircraft missile systems from Russia to Ukraine and then back to Russia didn’t show up somewhere.

Yes, there are limitations to what U.S. spy satellites can see. But the Buk missiles are about 16 feet long and they are usually mounted on trucks or tanks. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 also went down during the afternoon, not at night, meaning the missile battery was not concealed by darkness.

So why hasn’t this question of U.S. spy-in-the-sky photos – and what they reveal – been pressed by the major U.S. news media? How can the Washington Post run front-page stories, such as the one on Sunday with the definitive title “U.S. official: Russia gave systems,” without demanding from these U.S. officials details about what the U.S. satellite images disclose? ....



Obama, meanwhile, has produced a torrent of words but - as far as I can tell- no real evidence.

Maybe he can get someone to go in front of the UN with a vial of laundry powder and grainy pictures of unremarkable buildings? [/heavy sarcasm]

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 4:28 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G. I didn't get into the "predictions" business until after the referendum was held in Crimea, and I thought it would be fun to write future headlines. What I meant was that I DID predict that Russia would send troops into eastern Ukraine and so far, I got it wrong.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57588

Also, I did say that it was the naval base in Sevastopol that was the reason for the focus on Ukraine

Quote:

And Obama was going to do the same to Syria. If it hadn't been for that rather impressive fleet of Russian warships and aircraft-carrier destroyers off the coast of Syria, we would have gone whole-hog into bombing Syria too. In fact, I'm reasonably certain that it was that Russian fleet in the eastern Mediterranean (coming from the Sevastopol naval base) that put Ukraine back on the front burner.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=58044

I was pretty sure that Sevastopol would be a major contention. I couldn't in a million years imagine Putin giving it up. Yanno, one of the things that focuses my thinking is to sit and try to quiet my mind and come up with (what I think of as) a reasonable prediction of what will happen next?

So, what do you think will happen next?

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 7:32 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what do you think will happen next?

There will be more nonsense coming from Russians. www.newrepublic.com/node/118782 Did you know Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that the plane had been recently reinsured and was crashed for the insurance money? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defense systems in the area and the Ukrainian military mistook MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:34 AM

THGRRI


When I first starting posting here I confronted Signym’s posting style as Subjective and meant to confuse. I also pointed out that she is biased and posting delusional concepts of current events. This is a perfect example of her biases. The fact that throughout this tread she posted no links to sources seemed unusual to me. Now I know why. The responses coming from the separatists and being put forth on Russian air waves were undeniably lies. Daily as additional information about the shoot down became public they became more and more absurd as SECOND pointed out.

In a not too distant thread, Sig suggested an Iranian news outlet as a good source of information about what’s going on in the Middle East. Her words were (if you really what to know what’s going on) check out this Iranian news outlet. The Iranian’s who fund and send weapons to Hamas and Syria. We already know she favors Russian news sources over the west. This tells me anything she perceives as counter to Russian world policies she is against. The United States, Europe, Israel and all our allies. 1kiki foolishly posted a link that leads us to where Sig gets her concepts. News reporting on all topics full of allegations and covert messages that outright imply or hint to, it’s the wests fault.

Yep, here is a few. An American Embassy is ISIS headquarters. Americans are behind the shooting down of the aircraft to get the Europeans pissed off at Russia and impose tougher sanctions. I would point out SECONDS post as some more.

I think many who have given credibility to Sig’s insights in the past have done so because of her posting style which makes her posts too much work to sort through. Nobody gets this biased in a short period of time. Her perceptions go way back and she has to have been feeding her nonsense within these threads for many years. She takes a current event, goes to her biased sources and takes outrageous ideas and tones them down so she can slip them with subtlety into her posts. Then she and 1kiki wear doubters down to where they move on or stop posting responses. After this thread my approach to responding to them will be short, to the point and over.

We live in a society where governments, corporations, religious institutions and even charities lie, manipulate and deceive. I can’t deny any of that, but history shows us which policies and types of governments gives us the best shot at survival and advancement. If when topics show up on these threads they are met with the kind of preconceived responses and biases put forth by Sig and 1kiki those preconceived concepts must be challenged. Then they should be dismissed from serious contemplation.



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:04 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



Originally posted by second:
There will be more nonsense coming from Russians.

Interesting. When I read that it was attributed to a pro-Russia separatist.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 12:48 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Interesting. When I read that it was attributed to a pro-Russia separatist.

Putin's propaganda machine has built a very strange story about MH17 and the Russian ruling class has to watch this nonsense in order to stay au courant. They become less sane as a result, which limits their ability to adequately assess the situation and devise a good way out of it. Any rational political arguments have to be hidden and packaged in idiotic, jingoistic rhetoric.

All this is ultimately undermines Russia's interests and only increase the odds of punitive moves from European countries. But a Russian public that's unaware of what hot water the country is in won't be ready for the kind of apologetic posture that would maximize Putin's ability to make nice over the plane without making substantive concessions around Ukraine. www.vox.com/2014/7/21/5922685/putins-propaganda-machine-has-built-a-ve
ry-strange-story-about-mh17


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:05 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND

Did you know that- according to Kiev- there was chloroform in the Odessa Trades Union building, and that the victims (who were so clearly killed and THEN burned, as the pictures showed) "actually" died of partially- combusted chloroform instead? I wonder... Has Kiev not YET done autopsies on the victims to determine cause of death? Why is this still a matter of speculation?

Did you know that there was a mink coat which came to life, bit it's owner to death and then ran off? It's TRUE! I saw it at the checkstand!

If you notice, I don't quote those stories.

And unfortunately, not reading Russian, I can't tell how much of this is official, or the equivalent of checkstand nonsense. If it's official, it would tend to increase pressure on Putin to "do something" in Ukraine, and right now Putin seems completely unwilling to do anything. It's the equivalent of Obama drawing "red lines" and then slinking away from them. If official, it's counterproductive to Putin staying in power over the long term. If not official ... the equivalent of the Enquirer... then it's just the same as some of media which prints nonsense.

Anyway, that's why I try to stick to verifiable evidence.



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:18 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND

Did you know that- according to Kiev- there was chloroform in the Odessa Trades Union building, and that the victims (who were so clearly killed and THEN burned, as the pictures showed) "actually" died of partially- combusted chloroform instead? I wonder... Has Kiev not YET done autopsies on the victims to determine cause of death? Why is this still a matter of speculation?

Did you know that there was a mink coat which came to life, but it's owner to death and then ran off? It's TRUE! I saw it at the checkstand!

If you notice, I don't quote those stories.

And unfortunately, not reading Russian, I can't tell how much of this is official, or the equivalent of checkstand nonsense. If it's official, it would tend to increase pressure on Putin to "do something" in Ukraine, and right now Putin seems completely unwilling to do anything. It's the equivalent of Obama drawing "red lines" which he then slinks away from. If official, it's counterproductive to Putin staying in power over the long term. If not official ... the equivalent of the Enquirer... then it's just the same as some of media which prints nonsense.

Anyway, that's why I try to stick to verifiable evidence.





One, I don't believe a word you say and two I can't read Russian but at the click of a button I can have it translated, just like you can. Your lies along with trying to change the focus to another story are as transparent as the kremlins.


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:25 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Not trying to divert attention, just trying to keep it where it belongs: On the evidence. That's why I don't care WHERE the info comes from- if it's verifiable then it's good. You OTOH seem to need someone to tell you what the truth is.

Did you notice that I posted a new thread from Zerohedge which carries a USA news release about the proposed trajectory of the missile? Go check it out. It will be in the mainstream press later.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:29 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

One, I don't believe a word you say
Oh, BTW... From the Interior Ministry, via the Kiev Post (which I check out from time to time). There was a longer article previously available- this updated one will have to do.


Interior Ministry: Chloroform discovered in Odessa Trade Unions building where 32 died
Quote:

A top Ukrainian Interior Ministry official said on May 19 that 32 pro-Russia protesters who retreated inside Odessa’s Trade Unions building after clashes with pro-Ukraine activists and later died when the building was torched on May 2 might have been poisoned with chloroform.


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/interior-ministry-chloroform-d
iscovered-in-odessa-trade-unions-building-348449.html


Stick it up your ass- sideways!

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:34 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Not trying to divert attention, just trying to keep it where it belongs: On the evidence. That's why I don't care WHERE the info comes from- if it's verifiable then it's good. You OTOH seem to need someone to tell you what the truth is.

Did you notice that I posted a new thread from Zerohedge which carries a USA news release about the proposed trajectory of the missile? Go check it out. It will be in the mainstream press later.



No I did not notice. I really don't care what you post at this point. But since sanctions is a reason your propaganda machine listed as a why America is involved in the shoot down, I will post an opinion that suggests a different approach may work better.

"sanctions aren't even necessary. President Obama should instead threaten to expose what Putin cares about most: stolen Russian money.

According to the independent InDem Foundation in Moscow, $318 billion a year is frittered away annually in this resource-rich resurgent empire due to corruption. That's the equivalent of one third of Russia's Gross Domestic Product. Revolutions have erupted for less than that.

Putin and his inner circle posture to their domestic constituency as great Russian patriots, a bulwark against a cynical and decadent West, but they prefer to spend and invest their money in America and Europe. Their economic vices are similar to their martial ones in that they adopt a form of financial maskirovka, too. Offshore bank accounts, semi-anonymous real estate holdings in the south of France, the Ivory Coast, London, South Beach, Miami and New York City; commercial ventures controlled by third-party nominees in dummy companies registered in no-questions-asked jurisdictions such as British Virgin Islands, the Bahamas, and Cyprus - this is how the Kremlin elite stows its vast, ill-gotten wealth".

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/games-putin-plays-article-1.1872566



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 1:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


But you won't admit you're wrong about the chloroform article. Of course. And now, YOU'RE just trying to divert attention. Hey, I got a real life, and engaging in nonsense with you isn't on the list of priorities.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 4:07 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But you won't admit you're wrong about the chloroform article. Of course. And now, YOU'RE just trying to divert attention. Hey, I got a real life, and engaging in nonsense with you isn't on the list of priorities.



If you are asking me to confirm I was wrong about the chloroform incident in the Ukraine then you need to show me when I commented on that because I don't know what you are talking about.


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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 4:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


...Why the hell was Malaysian Airlines flying over that airspace? All airlines were warned back in April to avoid that region.



There were 55 other flights using that same flight path already one that day, none of which were shot down. They weren't being Maverick.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:14 PM

MAL4PREZ


Sig, you are rappy in my mind. I don't care if it's a sock situation, have no interest in making that call. You are just as unreasonable and dickish and superior and inflexible as he is. And so I have no interest in engaging with you anymore, except to occasionally mock you for how wonked you are.

So please continue to dismiss all evidence you don't like and cling to all that tinfoil hat bs that fits your fantasies. Write those long posts devoid of anything factual while you demand cold hard facts from others. I'll ignore most of it, but certainly won't resist chiming in when you go especially nutters. Cause its fun.

Which is exactly my relationship with rap.

THGRRI has been arguing the same ideas as me on this thread, but the way he tumbles is just like you and rap. Dickish, name-calling, taking every thread into a personal fight so that his roll with you becomes the focus.

And in recent posts he claims to know what you were like when you were reasonable in long past years, even though he just joined a few months ago.

Hmm.


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 8:38 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/two


Anne Applebaum on MH17: What happened, how it happened and who was responsible
Some months ago the Russians invaded eastern Ukraine in a very unorthodox manner.



The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:28 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Mal4

It pains me to see you sink to paranoid conspiracies. You see links everywhere that I know for a fact don't exist. A simple use of the map function here would help you sort out who is where and should help you disprove at least some of your suspicions.

Anyway, while I'm not Sig (whether you believe that or not is up to you), I'd like to ask you about this since it caught my attention: "all evidence you don't like". What evidence is that? Statements by people? I don't know about you, but I don't count that as evidence. If someone is going to ask me to think the world is flat - or round - their say-so isn't evidence. And the say-so of various people, whether government or media, or other, isn't good enough for me here, either. For one side with their say-so, there is an opposing side with theirs. These people had damn well better give me some data to back it up before I give it credit.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:50 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
A simple use of the map function here would help you sort out who is where and should help you disprove at least some of your suspicions.



LOL! You discount web videos and photos posted by Ukrainian separatists, information that is no doubt combed over by hackers and well paid spies all over the world since any provable falseness would gain immediate worldwide recognition and fame...

But you point to a weak and rarely used mapping function on an obscure sci-fi TV show web site as a source of Ultimate Truth as to your identity and trustfulness...

/not convinced

/laughing at you and all yours

/can you really be serious about this?

/does this response not answer all your other questions as to why I think you are full of shit as to "evidence" you accept and that you don't?


*-------------------------------------------------*
What trolls reveal about themselves when they troll:
http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=57532
*-------------------------------------------------*



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:56 PM

MAL4PREZ


double double toil and trouble

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 9:57 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Uhm - I assure you that not too many of us here have the resources to, or interest in, spoofing our locations. Almost none of us are covert government operatives with lots of resources. (I wouldn't put it past one or two posters to be disinformation specialists or informers.)

As for this: "You discount web videos and photos posted by Ukrainian separatists ..." I haven't seen them. I also don't think they were linked here where I might see them. All I know about them is what 'people' say. And, as I indicated, I don't accept things on a say-so. My position was, is, and shall be that I'm waiting for verifiable facts.

Until then, for unsupported claims posted by believers, I know that there are equally unsupported claims to the contrary. Which is why I do poke fun sometimes at the seriousness with which some people take government pronouncements, and the media reports dutifully echoing them. But given the lack of verifiable facts on either side, I make no claims of my own about 'the truth'.




SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.

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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:05 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

….Mal4prez

THGRRI has been arguing the same ideas as me on this thread, but the way he tumbles is just like you and rap. Dickish, name-calling, taking every thread into a personal fight so that his roll with you becomes the focus. And in recent posts he claims to know what you were like when you were reasonable in long past years, even though he just joined a few months ago. Hmm.



Yea ok, first of all you were late to this dance professor so you actually were arguing points I had long been arguing, and not just in this thread.

When you suggest I am turning every thread into a personal fight so that my roll becomes the focus, all I can say is really? I mean really? It could not possibly have anything to do with the fact too many here are so ideological, that it creates a problem for someone who won’t pick a side just to make friends.

I think perhaps you need to widen your gaze to encompass the entire RWDT, who posts here and the amazing amount of dysfunctional attitudes on display. It makes for some interesting sessions.

Lastly I did not claim to know how Signym was reasonable in years past. What I said is you must have been bamboozled, you claimed Sig was reasonable in the recent past. I suggested no one changes that much that fast. I noticed you pulled the same shit with me before by suggesting I was something with Rappy in another thread. You said you predicted it. I ask to see this prediction but you disappeared.

You need to stop thinking the world of your deductive skills. At least until you display some. I followed your link awhile ago to a thread you started and noticed a very interesting post. It is starting to look like this guy nailed you to a tea.



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Tuesday, July 22, 2014 10:30 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Anne Applebaum on MH17: What happened, how it happened and who was responsible
Some months ago the Russians invaded eastern Ukraine in a very unorthodox manner.


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly



Always nice to meet other voices of reason in these threads. Nice bit of posting you have been doing.


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