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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I'm sorry, I did not realize you were talking about a small part of their history and ignoring the rest.

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I was responding to NIKI, who said

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That does not change my opinion that almost all nations will behave the same as ours has, given the wealth and opportunity.

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I was merely giving examples of civilizations which had the wealth and opportunity, and chose not to, at various points in history not to become conquerors (not at ALL points in history)

As it turns out, NIKI and I agree on one thing, and that is

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the world's worst problem RIGHT NOW is the USA. So many nations would be doing so much better if we just stopped deliberately fucking everyone over.

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This isn't short-term aberration from out history, however, but unfortunately describes the arc of almost our entire development, which began in slavery and genocide and has "progressed" through hemispheric and then world domination and exploitation.

And what's the point whether other nations would behave the same or not? We criticize Nazi Germany, do we not? We don't try to excuse their behavior because they acted just like some other horrific conquering nation. I hear a lot of excuses about our militarism and inequity. From the right, it's all about fear and greed. From liberals, its to support President Milquetoast, who has betrayed them in every possible way. Nothing ever changes.

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I only commented because you are portraying the histories of the other nations incorrectly.

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You suggest "They took a lesson from it and turned their backs on it". That is not what happened at all. You are manufacturing what you believe their frame of mind was when they burned the fleet. Sorry but the historians do not offer that rational as to why they burned it. They present entirely different reasons. Three of which I posted here.

You just can't throw shit out there and see what sticks. He misrepresented the history of this and a lot of other histories as well in this thread.

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....SIGNYM
Yanno, the funny thing was, I read exactly the same passage you did before I posted, and I'm pretty sure that I said nothing about the reasons WHY the emperor decided what he decided... or why later emperors decided the same thing for generations afterwards. So I'm not just throwing stuff out to see what sticks, because I didn't throw anything out at all.

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....SIGNYM

Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.
I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME. (I posted about that and provided a link earlier)

The civilizations that I mentioned were advanced and economically powerful for their day. The Harappan civilization and its cities covered a large part of the Indus valley, and traded far and wide, with Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Unlike many of the extant civilizations, the Harappans didn't field any armies or engage in conquests. Because of the intricate seals and standardized weight sets, it appears the Harappan civilization cities depended primarily on trade of surplus agricultural and artisan goods. The same could be said for Minoan civilization, which depended on trade, not conquest, for its wealth.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, then you would have missed the part where I say what I like about the USA. But, god help you if you bumped into some actual factual history on your way to getting there!

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
ad hominem

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
I see you couldn't address either the facts or the logic of the argument and had to turn to an attack on the person - a personal attack is what is meant by ad homiem.

goodbye then

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, given the lack of countervailing facts and/ or logic, the proposals regarding imperialism in the US still stand.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, despite the volume of historical facts signym brings up, you have failed to bring up any that either disprove her argument or prove yours. In fact, you keep referring to who we are and what you think we're like rather than bring up either on-topic facts or logic, or preferably both, to make your case. The person who consistently fails to bring up facts in relation to the topic at hand, and instead resorts to subjective arguments - ad hominems in fact - is you.

And here - you are doing yet more of the same.

The arguments about imperialism in US history - still stand.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet, despite the volume of historical facts signym brings up, you have failed to bring up any that either disprove her argument or prove yours.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Chris,isall

That's OK. The key I've found to being able to tell the experienced sockpuppet troll from the naive clumsy newbie is how quickly they bring out the finely honed sockpuppet tools. Yanno - selective agreement and approval to try and separate people they think are 'aligned', attempting to derail an argument into an unrelated of-topic series of attacks and defenses with repeated ad hominems, repeated assertions with no facts or discussion, etc. I just think it's sometimes interesting to watch.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, if you'd been around a while, you'd realize that "yanno" is a word Frem brought to the board. So, am I Frem's sockpuppet, or is he mine? Also, Frem and Byte tend to come and go together... MORE sockpuppets! And since Chris seems to be pegged as KIKI's sockpuppet... and I've been pegged as RAPPY's... wow, clearly there is a mastermind here at work, someone who apparently has a whole boatload of time and energy and nothing else to do other than create a cast of characters!

Yanno what? I think you're the sockpuppet. And a troll.



Still... the fact remains that... the fact remains: Obama is a blowhard who sees our military as the solution to our (mostly military-created) problems. He and GWB remind me of Pinky and The Brain- always planning world domination.

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"I will confront your posting tag team style"-THGRRI
As opposed to discussing on-topic facts. So noted.-1KIKI

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Sam Harris says it all - a free thinking Atheist, he's not too far removed from Mahers philosphy, he's teamed up with other ex-muslims and atheists to speak up


Harris a liberal, calls out other liberals for being spineless


http://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/still-sleepwalking-toward-armage
ddon

Listen to his podcast, he's a great speaker

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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America continues to attract striving immigrants.

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Oh, that was STRIVING? I thought that was STARVING.

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On Wednesday’s Breitbart News Daily (6AM-9AM ET on Sirius XM Patriot channel 125), conservative journalist Michelle Malkin said there needs to be a moratorium on Syrian refugees and blasted President Barack Obama as a “petty, partisan man-child” who mocks GOP presidential candidates for being afraid of orphans and widows while “the headlines are crackling with new arrests of these ‘refujihadists.’”

Just like Obama declared that ISIS was being “contained” the day before the Paris terror attacks, Obama said hours before French authorities engaged in a seven-hour gunfight with Islamic radicals linked to the Paris terror attacks in which at least one of the perpetrators had posed as a Syrian refugee that those opposed to resettling Syrian refugees across America are “scared of widows and three-year-old orphans”

“Obama is a petty, partisan man-child,” Malkin told host and Breitbart News Executive Chairman Stephen K. Bannon. “And in times of adversity and in times of crisis, his true colors come out… On the world’s stage, when we are under siege by civilizational jihadists, this is the rhetoric that we get?”

Malkin said that “we absolutely need to have a moratorium” on Syrian refugees, especially since, “we cannot tell the difference between bonafide refugees—people who are bonafide escapees from political or religious persecution—because the whole thing has been such a game.”

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....SIGNYM
Yanno, the funny thing was, I read exactly the same passage you did before I posted, and I'm pretty sure that I said nothing about the reasons WHY the emperor decided what he decided... or why later emperors decided the same thing for generations afterwards. So I'm not just throwing stuff out to see what sticks, because I didn't throw anything out at all.

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....SIGNYM

Then you have chosen to ignore the historic examples of nations/ kingdoms that COULD HAVE been hemispheric-class predators but chose not to be.
I'm talking about China when it burned its imperial fleet, but could have easily taken over southern Asia and parts of the ME. (I posted about that and provided a link earlier)

The civilizations that I mentioned were advanced and economically powerful for their day. The Harappan civilization and its cities covered a large part of the Indus valley, and traded far and wide, with Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Unlike many of the extant civilizations, the Harappans didn't field any armies or engage in conquests. Because of the intricate seals and standardized weight sets, it appears the Harappan civilization cities depended primarily on trade of surplus agricultural and artisan goods. The same could be said for Minoan civilization, which depended on trade, not conquest, for its wealth.

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In fact, by most measures America has rarely been stronger relative to the rest of the world. Those who argue otherwise — who suggest that America is in decline or has seen its global leadership slip away — are either misreading history or engaged in partisan politics. Think about it. Our military has no peer.

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America continues to attract striving immigrants.

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Russia’s aggression towards former Soviet states unnerves capitals in Europe

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From Brazil to India, rising middle classes compete with us, and governments seek a greater say in global forums.

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The question we face, the question each of you will face, is not whether America will lead but how we will lead

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not just to secure our peace and prosperity but also extend peace and prosperity around the globe.

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Today, according to self-described realists, conflicts in Syria or Ukraine or the Central African Republic are not ours to solve.

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Here’s my bottom line: America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will. The military ... is, and always will be, the backbone of that leadership.

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This weekend, Ukrainians voted by the millions. Yesterday, I spoke to their next president. We don’t know how the situation will play out, and there will remain grave challenges ahead, but standing with our allies on behalf of international order, working with international institutions, has given a chance for the Ukrainian people to choose their future — without us firing a shot.

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... a third aspect of American leadership, and that is our effort to strengthen and enforce international order. After World War II, America had the wisdom to shape institutions to keep the peace and support human progress, from NATO and the United Nations, to the World Bank and I.M.F. These institutions are not perfect, but they have been a force multiplier. They reducing the need for unilateral American action and increase restraint among other nations.

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I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.

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we’re putting in place new restrictions on how America collects and uses intelligence, because we will have fewer partners and be less effective if a perception takes hold that we’re conducting surveillance against ordinary citizens.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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... a third aspect of American leadership, and that is our effort to strengthen and enforce international order. After World War II, America had the wisdom to shape institutions to keep the peace and support human progress, from NATO and the United Nations, to the World Bank and I.M.F. These institutions are not perfect, but they have been a force multiplier. They reducing the need for unilateral American action and increase restraint among other nations.

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In other words, these institutions have been the United States' tools of foreign and economic domination.

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