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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52- At this point, I don't see how they can hold elections, seeing as Ukraine is in civil war. (which, BTW, I predicted.)

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
FROM YOUR LINK - AND I POSTED THIS EARLIER:

On 21 February, President Yanukovych signed a compromise deal with opposition leaders which would implement constitutional changes to hand powers back to parliament and early elections, to be held by December.

Despite the agreement thousands still protested in central Kiev and took full control of Kiev's government district; they took over the parliament, the president's administration quarters, the cabinet, and the Interior Ministry.[50][51] On 21 February an impeachment bill was introduced in Ukrainian parliament,[52] but no details were provided and the Ukrainian parliament did not vote to impeach Yanukovich according to the legal procedure.[53] On 21 February Yanukovich left for Kharkov to attend a summit of south-eastern regions, according to media reports.

On 22 February, Parliament voted to declare that the chair of the President is vacant due to the fact that Yanukovich left Ukraine and no longer exercises his duties. An editorial in Der Spiegel argued that the vote was unconstitutional.[5]

On 22 February, Parliament named its speaker Oleksandr Turchynov as interim president on 23 February.[1] A warrant for the arrest of Yanukovych was issued by the new government on 24 February.[55] During the next days in Crimea, Russian nationalist politicians and activists organised rallies and urged Russia to help defend Crimea from advancing "fascists" from the rest of Ukraine.[56]

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
Yes, Miker, this is your very first fact-filled, thoughtful and cordial post on the topic:

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Friday, May 2, 2014 9:41 PM

You have however proved your ignorance on all subjects under the sun and your inability to stop yourself from proving it.

Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

It is as plain as what you say is wrong, everything about what you speak is based on your hate.

I am done with trying to cut you slack. To continue discussing this or anything else with you would only mean there is something wrong with me.

You are a disappointment.

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OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

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"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Good for media reports if people in the government could not reach him."

So, he goes out of contact overnight - and THE NEXT DAY they conclude he abandoned his position AND passed a resolution that he should no longer be president. All without a quorum. On top of which, there was no legal constitutional justification for that action. WHATEVER.

As for the election - there are now important difference between what would have happened if it had been allowed to happen AS THE OPPOSITION AGREED TO, and now. The Constitution has been changed. International agreements have been drawn. New (and equally unelected) members of Parliament have been seated. Most important, the person who should be running can't even enter his own country.

So, you too support the coup. And having an election afterwards makes it all OK. Good to know.

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I sit here knowing the whole world aside from Russia and the two of you...

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Decision about the removal of President of Ukraine from a post in order of
?mpeachment is made Supreme Soviet of Ukraine more no less as three fourth from its constitutional composition

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Originally posted by SignyM:
M52
There were many unfulfilled parts of the impeachment procedure. There was no special prosecutor, and no special investigator. In fact, there was no investigation. A geographically significant part of the Rada was missing, all of whom would have been Yanukovich's allies. The Constituion requires...

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Decision about the removal of President of Ukraine from a post in order of
?mpeachment is made Supreme Soviet of Ukraine more no less as three fourth from its constitutional composition

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It was a coup, and the politicians on the losing side feared for their safety. The result had already been decided, because it was necessary for the new government to sign the IMF contract.

Surely, if you look at the circumstances surrounding the change of the Ukrainian government with any objectivity, without the objective of "winning an argument" or justifying the result, you'll see that it was a rush to judgment and did not meet all Constitutional requirements, or even a reasonable fascimilie of impeachment.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
So, you've provided proof that Miker was wrong with its: "I sit here knowing the whole world aside from Russia and the two of you..."

You gonna take up his error with him? Of COURSE NOT. You just want 'your side' to 'win' - you don't care about facts. or democracy.

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M52- At this point, I don't see how they can hold elections, seeing as Ukraine is in civil war.

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It was a coup, and the politicians on the losing side feared for their safety.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This includes providing political cover and cookies and photo-ops with John McCain for Ukraine’s neo-Nazis, personally insulting Putin, breaking negotiated agreements with Russia, endlessly threatening sanctions, and lying in the press (with fake photos, fake flyers, and false reports).

The latest entry into the “provoke a war” campaign is the IMF. The IMF seems intent on pitting Ukraine into a death-match with Russia by threatening their loan status: Fight, or else your loan conditions will be ‘renegotiated’. Since Ukraine’s economy is hanging on ONLY by this thread, the IMF’s statement is an existential threat to the Kiev government.

At this juncture, there’s no point in trying to figure who is behind all this. With the entry of the IMF (and for all I know, the remainder of the troika: the European Commission and the European Central Bank ECB) into the fray, this is clearly a well-coordinated plan, with the USA and the EU and the IMF alternately taking turns to push the project forward, creating no discernable division of interest between them.

Until recently, the Kiev government has been reluctant to mobilize its army because the army itself is probably divided; there have been reports of “security forces” defecting to the east. Instead, the Kiev government has been trying to create citizen militias… pro-Nazi groups and other irregular forces to take the place of the army.

Since the IMF has threatened to renegotiate the loan status, Turchinov, the unelected President of Kiev… oops, I mean Ukraine… has reinstated the draft. I can't imagine what liberal pro-western Ukrainians are thinking now... "Doubled gas prices? Halved pensions? And now the draft???"

----------------------------

Ukraine unrest: Kiev 'helpless' to quell parts of east
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has admitted his forces are "helpless" to quell unrest driven by pro-Russian activists in the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Mr Turchynov said the goal was now to prevent the unrest spreading.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27222023

Ukraine crisis: Russian flags fill May Day rally
Thousands of protesters carrying Russian flags filled the street of Donetsk on Friday, as part of a May Day rally.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27241740

IM F : $17 bn loan would need overhaul if Ukraine loses east
The IMF says its just-announced $17 billion rescue program for Ukraine would have to be overhauled if the country loses control of the economically important eastern region to pro-Russian separatists.
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-17-bn-loan-overhaul-164648824.ht
ml

Ukraine crisis: Kiev reinstates conscription
Ukraine's acting President Olexander Turchynov has reinstated military conscription to deal with deteriorating security in the east of the country. The move, announced in a decree, came as pro-Russia militants seized the regional prosecutor's office in the eastern city of Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27247428]


Posted by Miker in response:

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You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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You doubt Russia's involvement in the East, but it's worth noting that if the national elections went ahead they would be a disaster for the pro-Russia parties, and for Putin, who wants Ukraine as part of his Eurasian Union, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan (and now Belarus's president is voicing doubts about joining).

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I do? Before you start telling me what I said and what I think, you might want to go back and read my posts. Show me where I said anything about it, because right now you're making assumptions, like you've been making all along.

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Originally posted by MIKER:
Come on people address the threads topic please. And Putin has already lost *to big to count. The Ukrainians are beginning to hate the Russians.

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Originally posted by AURaptor:

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Originally posted by MIKER:
Come on people address the threads topic please. And Putin has already lost *to big to count. The Ukrainians are beginning to hate the Russians.

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Now you've gone and done it. You've incorrectly used 'to' instead of 'too'.

You entire existence is invalidated, because you're too stupid to even know grasp the basic usage rules pertaining to to, too, two.

Sorry. Thems the house rules here.

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Miker was a lot closer in his statement than SIGNYM was in hers. So Miker was not right in what he said.

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I don't understand what you are asking. The quote has no frame of reference or who's quote it is in your post and what you posted that I am speaking about in right there in my post.I also see you like to cut and paste a lot as though they are your words.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52- MIKER said "the whole world except Russia". Not "most of the world" or "the majority" but "the whole world except Russia". He says that because it makes him feel superior to think that everyone except Russia is on "his side". But MIKER was categorically wrong in his statment. That's what happens when people make global statements like "everyone", "always", "never", and "the whole world"... there are bound to be exceptions, and MIKER didn't account for a whole lot of them... apparently didn't even know about them.

So, to clarify, the whole world is NOT in "his side", specifically ... out of

193 member states
100 voted for
93 either voted against, abstained, or didn't vote.

In other words, it was 50/50. Which is what I said. So YOU better go a recalculate what YOU think of as 50/50, because the facts don't back you up, either.



OF the 93 nations which either voted no, abstained, or didn't vote, I find these interesting-
BRAZIL, CHINA, EGYPT, INDIA, PAKISTAN (India and Pakistan on the same side?), SOUTH AFRICA, IRAN, ISRAEL (Israel and Iran on the same side? I think Israel just doesn't like Neo-Nazis), OMAN and UNITED ARAB EMIRATES (you would think oil payments would be the tie that binds).

You can find the vote tally here
http://unbisnet.un.org:8080/ipac20/ipac.jsp?profile=voting&index=.
VM&term=ares68262

AFA Yanukovich "abandoning" his post, he stated FROM THE UKRAINE that he hadn't abandoned his post. And there is nothing that I could find in the Constitution about "abandon", "unable" (as in, "unable to perform duties") or anything else, so if you could please reference the subsection which allows such an action by the Rada, I would appreciate it.

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I stand by what I said.

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Some of the worlds leaders will only talk behind closed doors because they have contracts with Russia and can't afford to piss him off. That is the way the world works, and many are too small to confront him.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I stand by what I said.

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Then you're sticking with your error. Okie dokie.

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Some of the worlds leaders will only talk behind closed doors because they have contracts with Russia and can't afford to piss him off. That is the way the world works, and many are too small to confront him.

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And other nations hate the USA but can't afford to piss us off, because they hold contracts or dollars or have loans. Which is why I find it interesting that the BIGGEST nations either voted against us, or abstained. Clearly, they find their economic power to be useful in standing against the USA. And yes, that is the way the world works, you said so yourself.

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I believe in what the United States and Europe stands for over Russia, Brazil and other socialist countries. That is why I am on this side of the argument.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:


Posted by SIGYNM: believe in what the United States and Europe stands for over Russia, Brazil and other socialist countries. That is why I am on this side of the argument.

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Right down to calling the Ukrainians fighting for control of their own country Fascists.

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I my self realize the complexities of the world, hope for the best and side with right when I can recognize it.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Right down to calling the Ukrainians fighting for control of their own country Fascists.

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MIKER- I call the Ukrainian security administration "fascists" because they are self-avowed Neo-Nazis who quote Hilter. I hate to be the one to have to keep looking stuff up for you, but here is the head of the Svoboda Party, which has three important assignments in internal security apparatus

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You gleefully take a few stupid comments from the ignorant few to make your points seem valid.

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What then about the Putin supporter who upon taking over a city in eastern Ukraine posted fliers demanding Jews register with the new government. I would in no why use this to paint with a broad brush all Ukrainian Russians as fascist bigots to make your point.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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You gleefully take a few stupid comments from the ignorant few to make your points seem valid.

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The ignorant few? You mean the leadership which uses the Nazi salute? Those ignorant few?

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What then about the Putin supporter who upon taking over a city in eastern Ukraine posted fliers demanding Jews register with the new government. I would in no why use this to paint with a broad brush all Ukrainian Russians as fascist bigots to make your point.

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It hasn't been figured out whether this was done by a pro-Russian or an anti-Russian.

MIKER, it's clear to me that you're belief-driven. You "believe" what the United States stands for - capitalism, apparently. Somehow, the Constitution got lost in the shuffle. But that's OK- so did the Ukraine's. You "believe" that I hate the United States, when nothing could be further from the truth. "Believe" then what you want; I've never found discussion with a true believer to be fruitful because even obvious facts become irrelevant.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You don't believe in democracy or freedom, MIKER, you believe in capitalism.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Yes, it seems to me that they are.

At every step of the way, when this could have been reduced in scope ...

When Putin offered a tripartite trade agreement which the EU rejected because they wanted an EXCLUSIVE arrangment

When Yanukovych and the demonstrators agreed to early elections, which was abrogated by the demonstrators

When the eastern pro-Russians proposed a federalized system, rejected

When the IMF could have hung back, as it so often does when one of its debtors is undergoing internal strife, but instead put the pedal to the metal

... the West has seen a way to push this project foreward. Russians weren't in the Maidan handing out cookies, they weren't recorded picking and choosing the next government of Kiev, they didn't get involved until their base's security and lease arrangement got wobbly. That was well into the whole process. This is a western project.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"You call the Ukraine a democracy but the people recognized it was not."

Do internationally praised free and fair elections constitute a democracy? Because that's how Yanukovych got his position.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/feb/08/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine
-president-election
Yanukovych set to become president as observers say Ukraine election was fair
• Yulia Tymoshenko under pressure to concede defeat
• Monitors praise 'impressive display' of democracy


I haven't even started to read the posts from this morning. This was the first. And I'm not going to continue. You're as ignorant and partisan as they come- you might even give rappy a run for the money if you keep it up.

So, I'm not going to stick around for a reply, but I'll give you a word of advice (not that you'll take it, rappy didn't when he started down his delusional path either btw) --- treat the 'news' you now accept as true as if it was an ad for a $105,000 car. Yanno, with a healthy dose of skepticism. Check out international news sources. keep track of what they say one day versus the next. It doesn't take a whole lot (though it's far more than you've been managing, it seems) to catch them in inconsistencies and gaps.

Anyway, I have truly more important things to do than educate a someone with self-inflicted ignorance.

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You forget, that is America.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
You don't believe in democracy or freedom, MIKER, you believe in capitalism.

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Originally posted by 1kiki:
"I am on the side of democracy."

Then find me ONE of your posts where you supported early elections as a democratic solution to the problem of Yanukovych. Just one.

"The cause you champion in your posts is all against the new Ukrainian government."

What I've been championing is democracy. Government through the process of election, not coup.

"If the government doesn't abide by that then the people have the right to throw the government out."

Yes, ALL the people COULD have had a chance to vote and decide. But that's not good enough for you.

Anyway, by your bad English I presume you're a plant.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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You forget, that is America.

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Oh, you mean an oligarchy?

So, by your logic... would you favor a revolution in the USA?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52-

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Miker was a lot closer in his statement than SIGNYM was in hers. So Miker was not right in what he said.

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MIKER said "the whole world except Russia". Not "most of the world" or "the majority" but "the whole world except Russia". He says that because it makes him feel superior to think that everyone except Russia is on "his side". But MIKER was categorically wrong in his statment. That's what happens when people make global statements like "everyone", "always", "never", and "the whole world"... there are bound to be exceptions, and MIKER didn't account for a whole lot of them... apparently didn't even know about them.

So, to clarify, the whole world is NOT in "his side", specifically ... out of

193 member states
100 voted for
93 either voted against, abstained, or didn't vote.

In other words, it was 50/50. Which is what I said. So YOU better go a recalculate what YOU think of as 50/50, because the facts don't back you up, either.

OF the 93 nations which either voted no, abstained, or didn't vote, I find these interesting-
BRAZIL, CHINA, EGYPT, INDIA, PAKISTAN (India and Pakistan on the same side?), SOUTH AFRICA, IRAN, ISRAEL (Israel and Iran on the same side? I think Israel just doesn't like Neo-Nazis), OMAN and UNITED ARAB EMIRATES (you would think oil payments would be the tie that binds).

You can find the vote tally here
http://unbisnet.un.org:8080/ipac20/ipac.jsp?profile=voting&index=.
VM&term=ares68262

AFA Yanukovich "abandoning" his post, he stated FROM THE UKRAINE that he hadn't abandoned his post. And there is nothing that I could find in the Constitution about "abandon", "unable" (as in, "unable to perform duties") or anything else, so if you could please reference the subsection which allows such an action by the Rada, I would appreciate it.

Do you really fear the ignorance of man? Maybe what you should really fear is the "rationalizing" man... a person who twists facts to suit his or her own purposes.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
And this is where I replied that you should recalibrate what you think of as "the whole world" since China, India, Brazil, and more than half of the remainder of the world's nations either voted against the USA or abstained in the UN.

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Originally posted by m52nickerson:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
M52-

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Miker was a lot closer in his statement than SIGNYM was in hers. So Miker was not right in what he said.

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MIKER said "the whole world except Russia". Not "most of the world" or "the majority" but "the whole world except Russia". He says that because it makes him feel superior to think that everyone except Russia is on "his side". But MIKER was categorically wrong in his statment. That's what happens when people make global statements like "everyone", "always", "never", and "the whole world"... there are bound to be exceptions, and MIKER didn't account for a whole lot of them... apparently didn't even know about them.
I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Miker
I care about the thread topic. How about you give that a look see OK?

I am interested in your opinion about that. QUOTE: SIGMYM "It seems clear to me that the USA, the EU, and NATO are doing everything they can to provoke a war with Russia. This is the opening statement from the person who started the thread. Let's here from you on this, I am looking forward to it.