REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"Are we over-diagnosing mental illness?"

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, April 1, 2013 06:33
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VIEWED: 3299
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Saturday, March 16, 2013 10:38 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You better fucking BELIEVE we are...and have been for a long, LONG time!
Quote:

To ease the heartache of her first child's stillbirth, Kelli Montgomery chose rigorous exercise, yoga and meditation over the antidepressants and sleeping pills that her physicians immediately suggested.

"'You need to be on this medication or that medication.' It was shocking to me that that was the first line of defense," said Montgomery, 42, director of the MISS Foundation for Grieving Families in Austin, Texas. "From the time I was in the hospital to when I was seeing my general practitioner, that's what they were insisting on."

Her choice stemmed partly from a longtime aversion to taking prescription drugs. It was also the result of listening to a growing group of psychiatrists, psychologists and clinical social workers from around the world who argue that depression and other normal responses to life's toughest challenges are too often labeled as disorders -- and as such, demand medicine with sometimes dangerous side effects.

Protesters such as Montgomery contend diagnoses of serious psychological and psychiatric disorders have also needlessly skyrocketed alongside the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders' expanding list of what constitutes mental illness. The manual is considered the bible of psychiatry because it's the criteria mental health professionals use to diagnose patients.

One example of the issue is the frequency of bipolar disorder in children. It has jumped 40-fold in the last two decades, said Dr. Bernard Carroll, a former Duke University psychiatry department chairman.

"You've got all these young kids running around with this diagnosis, yet many of them have never, ever had a manic episode, which is the hallmark of bipolar disorder," said Carroll, now the scientific director of the Pacific Behavioral Research Foundation.

"Many of these kids," he continued, "have never had anything other than irritability. Yet they're exposed to anti-convulsants, anti-psychotic drugs, which have serious long-term side effects in the form of obesity, metabolic syndrome, diabetes and some movement disorders ... that can leave a person extremely disfigured physically."

The International DSM-5 Response Committee -- named after the upcoming fifth incarnation of that diagnostic manual -- plans to launch a campaign next month aimed at blocking the manual's May 20 release. Short of that, critics plan to press ahead with their case that the DSM-5 should be viewed with some skepticism and not wholly embraced by practitioners or patients.

"We believe that there is now overwhelming evidence that DSM-5 is scientifically unsound (and) statistically unreliable," said clinical psychologist Peter Kinderman, director of the University of Liverpool's Institute of Psychology, Health and Society. He is helping organize the international campaign with petition drives in the United States, the United Kingdom and France.

The American Psychiatric Association, whose manual has been used by health insurers, pharmaceutical companies, doctors and other clinicians since it first published in 1952, has dismissed DSM-5 opponents as overly alarmed.

"All the good epidemiological studies unfortunately show that one in five people have a psychological disorder. ... They're prevalent, they're just all over the place, and that's very disturbing to some people," said Dr. Carl Bell, a Chicago psychiatrist and University of Illinois School of Medicine director of public health and community psychiatry. More at http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/16/health/mental-illness-overdiagnosis/inde
x.html?hpt=hp_t2


It's a helluvalot more disturbing to ME, and many others, that these assholes are out there diagnosing and medicating (thank you, Big Pharma) young people, and pushing meds for everything from "Low T" (for gawd's sake!) to LONGER EYELASHES!!!

As I've written, I long ago ceased on mental-health forums referring to others as "normies"--as many do--and began calling them GUMs (Great Undiagnosed Masses). It was only half a joke; I firmly believe that if criteria were "right", virtually EVERYONE would be found to have a mental problem. That does NOT mean that everyone should be diagnosed with a mental problem, treated for one or medicated for one, and it's sickened me to see this escalating to the point it has--and will in future.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:15 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Prolly over medicated, especially children. What I hear coming out of the US, I find very frightening.

Although I think that we do diagnose and medicate what would probably be described as normal reactions to events, I also think that we suffer a kind of collective mental health problem.

Why? (based on my observation and cherry picking a whole load of data and research, I make no apologies for this being unscientific and just my opinion)

We lead lives increasingly isolated from one another, despite the advancements made to technological communication. Individuals feel increasingly isolated, especially when things are tough. So we might have people to share the celebrations and the good times, but when we need support to get through bad times, its thin on the ground. I read somewhere that in a success obsessed society, it becomes hard to admit when things are not successful in your life. Do we put on a brave face and carry on? DO we tend to judge people when things go to shit? Do we not like dealing with others sadness, grief, etc because we think it might infect us?


That is just the start, but it'll do for now.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:24 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Saw that one over on CNN also, but didn't bother to read past the rhetorical headline. Of course we are, and over-treating it. Tranquilizing everybody, for everything.

The Conservatives have some kind of point there somewhere-- some divergent behaviors are not acceptable, and can, and should, be eliminated by childhood discipline and behavior modification. But don't ask me which ones, I'm just a parent of 2 adult women, and grandfather to one, all 3 seemingly normal, and not so far-out as to need much help.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 12:51 PM

BYTEMITE


I've seen those longer eyelashes commercials... That warn of hemorrhaging, heart palpitations, and death as side effects.

One of those commercials is my go to for the worst benefits-to-harmful-side-effects ratios that I've ever seen.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 2:22 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yup to what everyone said; and yes, Byte, when I hear commercials (remember when they couldn't advertise medication on TV???) I just shake my head at the loooong list of "possible side effects" and the stupidity of humans. Kids, tho', kids don't even have the CHOICE, so that pisses me off.


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Saturday, March 16, 2013 4:44 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Uhm ... we have some young parents with very young children where I work. At times they will bring them in at the end of the day on the way from daycare to home. With three of the children I have had serious reservations about their behavior, especially the youngest who didn't look anyone in the eyes at ALL, ever, not even his parents, not even once, not even for a second. It was unnerving to watch. All of those children have been diagnosed with varying degrees of autism (an exceptionally high percentage), diagnoses I think are appropriate given the significant behavior signs they all have. In this instance, no I don't think there is over-diagnosis going on even though the fraction of diagnosed children in this group is 3/8 - over 1/3.

When it comes to life's emotional bumps and bruises, it would be nice if we had a sufficiently supportive society, allowing people the opportunity to not have to stress about the treadmill of necessities and to heal on their own terms and time. But we as a society aren't built that way, and it doesn't serve business to allow it - either by cutting workers any slack and time, or by refraining from the opportunity to make yet more profit on their misery through the sale of drugs.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 6:11 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Yup to what everyone said; and yes, Byte, when I hear commercials (remember when they couldn't advertise medication on TV???) I just shake my head at the loooong list of "possible side effects" and the stupidity of humans. Kids, tho', kids don't even have the CHOICE, so that pisses me off.




I love the one for the flu med that lists possible side effects: Diahrhea, vomiting, fever, cough, muscle aches and pain. Hello? you already got all that stuff, and you could drink water and get the same result.

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 6:55 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Well duh.



The whole sick, sad story of Maryanne Godboldo and her daughter is also a cautionary tale in just how far Society and The Law will go to push the matter, as if the existence of the Hellcamps wasn't enough evidence already.

Overdiagnosis of mental illness becomes self-fulfilling prophecy, especially since when it used abusively the victims thereof become psychiatrically iatrogenic and are thus unable to make use of conventional resources to help themselves, and there are folks out there who exploit this to manipulate them, and so on and so forth.

I really don't think it's too much to ask to leave well the hell enough alone, to let people be who and what they are, without trying to mold them into something everyone else wants to them to be.
It is a murder of the soul, of the spirit, and while rarely carried off successfully, it mutilates them emotionally and they carry the scars forever.

-Frem

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Saturday, March 16, 2013 8:56 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Frem - really?

Here, why don't you read some of the posts here http://www.braintalkcommunities.org/forumdisplay.php/36-Neurological-D
isorders-and-Injury
and come back and tell us all over again how there are no real problems, we're all just too stupid to understand 'differences'.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 10:50 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


I suspect that was a misinterpretation of Frem's post.

Unfortunately, the 'mental health' profession does have a long and nasty history of shocking treatment of people who are deemed different, including homosexuals, sexual active unmarried women, and those whose views and behaviours differ from the norm.

Nevertheless, there are illnesses where drugs have been a god send, enabling those on the severe spectrum to have a chance of leading an okay life. No one really wants to live with psychosis, its not a cute lifestyle choice, but can be a very scary experience for someone (and their loved ones). And there are a host of other illnesses where the symptoms really make life unbearable, and are not successfully treatable by other means.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:10 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Go stuff that strawman where the sun don't shine, Kiki.

What *is* it with you science-as-religion dogmatic bastards anyway, the very minute someone points out rampant overdiagnosis of mental illness, pharmaceuticals being not effective as advertised, or more dangerous than, or questions the so-called-wisdom of modern so-called-science in any way yer like a pack of friggin angry pirahnas.

What I *said*, as I have always said, and you bloody well know, is that we have a problem with overdiagnosis of mental illness in combination with overuse of pharmaceuticals instead of real long term solutions - a combination of incompetence, greed and complacency has done no good for those on the receiving end of such "care".

Firstoff, problem number one - proper diagnosis.
This is *critically* important, and it's not something you can DO with a five minute checklist and no knowledge of the patient beyond their insurance coverage, it requires actual assessment and testing which is rarely covered by insurance and thus there winds up being a damned lot of assumption and best guess goin on, along with the usual corruption of the Big Pharma push-to-prescribe... hell even my doc likes to push whatever their wonder product of the week is at me cause they pay for his golf trips.

Secondly, problem number two - medication as solution.
Now, while there's the occasional situation such as epilepsy or whatnot where that's prettymuch the only solution we have cause we lack the research and tech to do more, a lot of mental illness is best handled by a complete solution plan, therapy, adjustments of lifestyle, diet, activities, and medication in most cases is best used as symptom abatement on a temporary basis while the underlying problems are addressed, okay that's a bit vague, but the general notion here is that tossing them a bottle of pills and sending them off isn't gonna solve their goddamn problem in most cases.

Thirdly, problem three - YOU are talking about PHYSICAL INJURY, which is a whole different baliwick than some made up bullshit so-called-disorder which essentially means "They will not OBEY!", which is my specific gripe in all this mess.

For ages we've pulled out bullshit excuses for this, from demonic possession and changelings, to assumption of drug use, to assumption of mental illness for what is, essential humans being human.
I do find it ironic how the narrative has changed though.
"He doesn't OBEY, he must be on drugs!"
And that was where the damn Hellcamps multiplied exponentially by masquerading as a drug treatment program, the abuses of Straight, Inc have not in any way been forgotten.
And what is it nowadays ?
"He doesn't OBEY, he *should* be on drugs!"
The irony that in many cases these are the exact same drugs, just repackaged and renamed by Big Pharma into something more palatable, but it's the same game it's always been back to the dawn of time.

Now go take your dogmatic how-dare-you-question bullshit somewhere else, cause science isn't about unquestioning acceptance of things the evidence does not support, and if your medicine isn't based on science it's no more acceptable to me than any other scam.
But if you can't pound it through your thick head there's a difference between pointing out blatant overdiagnosis and saying something doesn't exist cause your outrage at having your holy shibboleths challenged blinds you to all reason, and thus wish to look ever stupider, go right on ahead.

-Frem

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:25 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, there are some pretty serious diagnoses in Frem's little cheer-leading post.

One example is bipolar disorder. Personally, I know a lot of people who run in streaks. They get an idea, they're all enthused, then something happens. They hit a wall they can't get around and they're in despair. Or they finish and they’re in a funk b/c they don't feel right unless they have that shiny thing (whatever it is) in front of them, and the next one hasn't come along yet. I wouldn't call them bipolar unless - They're in despair and they try to kill themselves. They're in a funk and they can't get out of bed for weeks at a time. Or they're all enthused and spend tens of thousands of dollars they don't have. Or they start to hear voices.

At some point a line is crossed between it's just someone being who they are, to being problematic for that person and the people around them.

To pretend that 'bipolar disorder' is completely invalid as a problem as Frem's post does is wrong. Just as it's equally wrong to say that people who run in streaks (like many creative people do) are all pathological.


BTW, my impression is that Frem isn't happy unless he can blame every problem on his boogey-man of choice - which is that awful society that's created every problem under the sun.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:32 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Frem, what you posted was this: "I really don't think it's too much to ask to LEAVE well the hell enough ALONE, to let PEOPLE be who and what they are, WITHOUT trying to mold them into something everyone else wants to them to be.
It is a MURDER of the soul, of the spirit, and while rarely carried off successfully, it mutilates them emotionally and they carry the scars forever."

No caveats, no exceptions, no acknowledgment that sometimes there are real problems. So, have you considered that sometimes letting people be just the way they are is ignoring a painful, destructive and potentially fatal problem as surely as ignoring a cancer would be?

And I'm the one arguing for a middle ground, not you Frem. You're the one arguing the extreme.

So, what is it with you ideologue-types anyway? Why does it always have to be black and white?

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 12:24 PM

BYTEMITE


Probably one of the most frustrating aspects of this board is when two people really only have a couple of places where they have slightly different priorities or divergence on an issue, but then all those differences explode into misunderstandings (deliberate or accidental) and insults.

1kiki is a proponent for the "5 minute diagnosis here's some pills now gtfo" style of medicine as much as Frem is a proponent of "No Medications Ever for mental illness." Which is to say, not at all.

You guys do have disagreements, and I know it's hard to play nice, but one or both of you is guilty of talking past each other versus talking WITH each other.

I suspect that continuing conversation along that line will not be beneficial for either of you. I suggest deep breaths, time apart, or maybe even a new thread where before anyone even tries to talk to anyone else, they have to write up their baseline for their argument.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 1:33 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Byte

What I get out of Frem's posts is that he wants to do away with diagnostics entirely. Yeah, he'll allow that if there is a grossly obvious injury or evident seizures maybe they might be acceptable to him ... but otherwise ...

But as with the children I alluded to earlier, often there is no physical sign, no gross deformity, no specific cause that can be found. All there is is behavior outside of the norm.

The little boy I mentioned in an earlier post is a case in point. For infants and very young children, the most salient feature in their environment is their parent/ family/ tribe. It behooves them as physically dependent creatures to pay attention to their caregivers and learn about and from them. To have a very young child completely ignore the presence of adults, especially the parents, and to treat all people as if they were inanimate objects too removed to be of interest is clearly not normal. So, do we get rid of the diagnosis of autism b/c we can’t point to a physical mark or specific event?

Or alternately do we blame the society generally and the parents specifically as Frem seems to think we should? Now these are highly educated, loving, attentive (Mainland Chinese) parents. This is their first child, highly anticipated and well-loved. I've worked with them for several years before the birth of the child and after. Am I to believe that they have created a nightmarish hellhole for their child and are the cause of his ills?

And once acknowledging that maybe the child isn't like a lot of children, shall we leave him to be who he is? Understanding that therapy if started early can normalize brain waves and behavior long-term, but IF NOT will leave the child in the same state. Or should we do our best as a society to try to learn how to help him and those like him, and provide the care and support we can? Not to make him OBEY and CONFORM but to allow him to communicate and learn, and therefor be engaged with the people and the world around him in a more complete way ...


He isn't the only child I've known like that. And while I've known many, here is another specific example. A woman I worked with had a cousin - early middle age - who still lived with his parents. And they did their best with him, despite the fact that from young childhood he would go into violent rages and assault them, and more than once set parts of the house on fire over the decades. Should they have shrugged it off b/c he was just being himself? Sent him off into the world b/c there wasn't a visible mark on him so nothing must have been wrong?

I find Frem to be one-sided in his view of the world. I honestly wish he'd spend some time volunteering in a class for those with autism, or other significant problem hidden somewhere in their brains.



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Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:08 PM

CANTTAKESKY


What I got from Frem's post is not that real mental problems don't exist, but that diagnosis itself is not helpful. There is a point to be made that solving the problems without labeling them may be the best way to go in mental and psychological difficulties. After all, when someone goes through a divorce or bereavement, for example, we don't slap a label like Post Divorce Disorder or Bereavement Disorder on him. We just empathize and support them through the hard times, and everyone pulls through together on the other side.

This is something I've given a lot of thought to. I think there are enough patterns in mental and behavioral problems that some labels are useful. But current practice of assembly line diagnosis and pharmacological treatment, minus any support, empathy, and behavioral/introspective work, leads to more problems than it solves.


-----

Disobedience is not an issue if obedience is not the goal.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:52 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"But current practice of assembly line diagnosis and pharmacological treatment, minus any support, empathy, and behavioral/introspective work, leads to more problems than it solves."

But it's oh so wonderfully profitable.

Please understand I'm being completely ironic.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:04 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

What I get out of Frem's posts is that he wants to do away with diagnostics entirely.


What I saw Frem say is that you can't make a diagnosis with a five minute sit down and a checklist. He said that creates a ripe environment for overdiagnosis, meaning that some people/kids have been diagnosed that should NEVER have been diagnosed and prescribed medicine.

And that people who should never have been diagnosed because they don't actually have a problem should be left alone.

Frem didn't say that mental illnesses don't exist and that no diagnoses are warranted. I mean fer crying out loud, the guy has worked with abused kids who have been diagnosed with PTSD.

Frankly I suspect you two actually agree on a lot more in this area than you actually disagree (except for on vaccines, of course). It's just the lines of communication get in the way.

EDIT: I see CTS has already spoken up.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 3:07 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Brenda

FWIW I'm not ignoring your posts. I would be very interested to learn more about the specifics and about your experiences and your conclusions. But I'm EXTREMELY nosy when my interest gets piqued, to the point where it irritates people. So, rather than try to ask you more, I just read what you post and wonder about your story.

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Sunday, March 17, 2013 6:47 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Byte give it up, what I said was obvious, they just don't wanna HEAR it, cause it challenges certain assumptions, and so, they somehow transmogriphy what it was into something more palatable and easier to dismiss.

Overdiagnosis is a problem.
Proper diagnosis in our medical system is VERY lacking.

Without proper diagnosis it becomes guesswork and pillpushing, supported by a financial agenda.

And that means folks who do need help don't get it, or get the wrong help, and folks who have nothing wrong with them wind up overdiagnosed besides.

There needs to be a hard medical standard to proper diagnosis of mental illness, and there isn't, because insurance companies will not support it, will not pay for it, and I say to that be damned to the insurance companies and nationalise the damn system...
But that opens up a whole nother can o worms.

There's a damn far cry from trying to help someone with an actual disorder, and medicating/mistreating a kid for the benefits of profit and to appease parents/schools/society, and in the latter case here I feel it constitutes malpractice of the very worst order, and wastes resources that could be going to those who DO need help.

Of course, I am wasting my breath I know, but it's mine to waste.

-F

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Monday, March 18, 2013 7:39 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Well, there are many important brain areas around either ventricle that could be disturbed by a tumor and surgery. The third and fourth ventricles lie in the midline of the brain between the two halves.

If I had to guess, I would think that the areas toward the right hand side of your brain (if you're right-handed) were the ones that were damaged.

The left side of the brain controls speech (if you're right-handed), and speech problems are easy to notice. The right side of the brain controls important but silent functions that allow you to create a mental map of your environment and place yourself in it, among other things. There is only just now beginning to be some treatments for right-sided brain damage, it's an area that's been hard to study and hard to implement new therapies for.

I could refer you to a poster who knows a lot more about this than I do. That poster may be able to point you to resource therapies. If that sounds good to you, please PM me and I will pass your message on.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 7:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"... what I said was obvious, they just don't wanna HEAR it, cause it challenges certain assumptions, and so, they somehow transmogriphy what it was into something more palatable and easier to dismiss."

Yes, Frem, b/c I was claiming every psychiatric diagnosis ever made and every treatment ever given was necessary, right and proper. And I'm sure you can quote me on that.


You really need to get over yourself.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 9:12 AM

BYTEMITE


Surrounded by the briquettes of a flame war no one really wants to avert. Barreling towards oblivion. Affecting my new "fuck everything lol" attitude substantially. Harshing my SHUI.

Instead of getting annoyed... I suppose the only sane response is to embrace the fire.



They misspelled "apologies."


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Monday, March 18, 2013 9:42 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


OK! OK! PEACE! PAX!

and ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha to the sign ...

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Monday, March 18, 2013 10:22 AM

BYTEMITE


Sorry. Now I feel bad.

The only way to avert the flame war was to post something that could start a bigger flame war, and hope that everyone fled in terror when they saw what was potentially on the horizon.

Really very sorry. Actually mean that. I'm not very good at this.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 10:33 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


One way or the other the original flame war is out at this end.

You got the right end, even if the process was not what you intended. No worries, mate.

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Monday, March 18, 2013 1:01 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Yes, if you wish to PM me you can do so through my profile.

Just a short commentary on the seizures - this is not something you should do on your own, but a ketogenic diet might control your seizures enough to allow you to reduce or eliminate your meds. So look around on the internet about it. JohnsHopkins was the original place to use the ketogenic diet as a seizure therapy. It's been many years since I was actively involved in the topic but they might still be a good place to start looking.

But I understand about the safety thing.

TTUL

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 7:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I put this up then went away, so I'm late coming into this. I just have to say THANK YOU, Kiki, for everything you said. While I will rant and rave all day about how our society has become obsessed with labeling everyone who shows any sign of being "different", and it's hard to shut me up when it comes to how Big Pharma has their finger in psychiatry, etc., etc., the very idea that there aren't tons of us out here who DO have a valid mental disability which needs help and treatment is...well, "expletive deleted".

I've got a lot of years' experience on line and in real life with people who suffer from bipolarity, and it's truly horrible. I thank you for standing up for us, Kiki, and agree with everything you said.

I'll tell the stories again; I knew two lovely women in the bipolar support group I was in. Both intelligent, well-educated women, both bipolar I. One of them took her car and drove "slolom" across the Golden Gate Bridge--weaving in and out of the cones separating oncoming traffic. She then did "donuts" on the Marina Green, which is always crowded with kids playing, people, dogs, etc. At the time she was totally manic; she's actually a very quiet, unassuming, kind person.

The other was an attorney, highly respected and at the top of her field. She fell into a deep depression, couldn't get out of bed, and when that switched to mania she went to her pharmacist, demanding drugs with which to commit suicide. When he refused, she walked out to her car, grabbed a tire iron, and went after him. They had to call the cops to subdue her.

Both of them ended up in jail, the former lost both her children, and had just gotten them back when I knew her and helped her by driving her and the children around here and there. Normally these were both really wonderful people, they wouldn't hurt a fly. It wasn't "societal pressure" or some other thing someone could come up with to explain their behavior, it was a CHEMICAL IMBALANCE and they had no choice in how they behaved.

I know others who've had their lives turned upside down by mental illness; hell, I lived with one of them for over four years and saw up close and personal how she couldn't control her borderline behavior. While borderline is a personality disorder, rather than a mood disorder, in my opinion it is one of, if not THE, worst mental disorder, partly because, as a personality disorder, meds can't control it as well as they can mood disorders. For all their faults, and despite the fact that they don't "cure" anything and should never be the only treatment, meds can be invaluable, and in the two cases cited, once medicated these women were aghast at what they'd done.

I've told these stories before, and there are many more, they are just the two most dramatic ones I present. Yes, over diagnois is a serious problem, but at the same time, we have made such amazing strides in recognizing, treating, and educating people about mental illness that when I read or hear people like Tom Cruise (expletive deleted) dismissing the very idea of valid mental illness, I just want to SPIT!

There was a young lady of 16 who was on my mental health forum for years. She was bipolar I, which made me sick at heart in one that young. Her mania would come around in Spring; one year, for example, for months she was fully convinced she was an angel and could "fix" everyone. I'll leave the ramifications to your imagination. Each time we got her through these episodes, and as she got older, she got better and better at dealing with her issues--last I heard from her, a year or so ago, she was at university, engaged, had a job and doing GREAT...no mania for several years. I'm so happy for her. Please note: She's British, and the British Mental Health System, for all its flaws, had made her medication and treatment possible where she otherwise would have gone untreated. Her family is poor and she shared a bedroom with three other siblings, in a two-bedroom flat. I can't imagine what her life would be like today without that help. Remember that when our right wingers want to cut our mental-health services FURTHER.

I'll shut up now; I came on this way late and it set me off.


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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:02 AM

BYTEMITE


No one ever said that mental illnesses don't exist.

Niki. I tried to avert a flame war here and I'm not really eager to undo whatever progress I might have managed.

So, trying to remain as calm as I possibly can under the circumstances... What exactly do you think is going to happen here and what do you mean to accomplish?

I know that your relationship with Frem is not what it was. I can appreciate this might be part of your emotional response here which is why I'm trying to be reasonable. Hard feelings NEVER lead to good communication and everyone on this board is often guilty of that.

But what I think is going to happen is that Frem is going to come in here fire at the mouth and this whole thing is going to escalate again. He's going to think that you just took sides against him regardless of the landscape and he's going to blow up at you.

I can see this coming like a freight train, and while I had options before, ways to try to stop this, my only option now is to get out of the way. I am sorry for my meddling, and even more sorry for my failure.

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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:15 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What do I mean to accomplish? I wasn't aware we were trying to "accomplish" things by posting here. I put up things which might be of interest to discuss, and we discuss them; I missed this discussion, came back, found it, and posted. What do I think will happen? I don't give a flying fuck. Does that answer your questions?

I stated at the end quite clearly "I came on this way late and it set me off". That should have explained anything you wanted to know, I'm not sure what you expect to accomplish by taking a whack at me--not that I mind, mostly I just think it's amusing you're taking me to task. It's amusing considering how often as I've been accused of trying to "control" folks here, that you just pretty blatantly tried to do exactly that, hee, hee, hee. I didn't see this as devolving into any kind of "flame war"; I would respectfully suggest that is your view, but maybe not everyone's.

It's an issue close to my heart; I wrote my opinion and offered some examples. People can do with them whatever they want, or nothing; what exactly did you think you would "accomplish" with your post, given apparently you think accomplishing something is the point here?

Has absolutely nothing to do with Frem, I have an inkling why he feels the way he does and I fully understand it--AND empathize with it. I responded to exactly the same thing Kiki did, nothing more. You already know the issue of mental illness means more to me than it does to many others; I spoke my piece. Neither you nor anyone else needs to read it, and people will respond, or not, as they please.

In other words, and put concisely:
;o)


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Tuesday, March 19, 2013 8:31 AM

BYTEMITE


Mm hmm.

Message received.

I once again blame the trappings of society and civilization.

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Saturday, March 30, 2013 9:53 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.



BRENDA- I've PM'd you.

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Sunday, March 31, 2013 3:30 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


One of the things I find really difficult and not altogether managed well by the medical profession, is the connect between mental health and physical health and what impacts on what.

For example, I recently heard a pyschiatrist talk about how too many women were misdiagnosed with depression and given treatments accordingly in their middle years, when they were in fact suffering from hormonal imbalances.

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Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:18 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
It's a helluvalot more disturbing to ME, and many others, that these assholes are out there diagnosing and medicating (thank you, Big Pharma) young people, and pushing meds for everything from "Low T" (for gawd's sake!) to LONGER EYELASHES!!!

As I've written, I long ago ceased on mental-health forums referring to others as "normies"--as many do--and began calling them GUMs (Great Undiagnosed Masses). It was only half a joke; I firmly believe that if criteria were "right", virtually EVERYONE would be found to have a mental problem. That does NOT mean that everyone should be diagnosed with a mental problem, treated for one or medicated for one, and it's sickened me to see this escalating to the point it has--and will in future.




Hehe....

Forgive me Niki... when I first saw this thread, I thought you might be talking about those of us with self recognized conditions, and not the atrocities committed by big pharma and the business/government/insurance "PLAN" to get us all medicated on SOMA.

Maybe if we were both on the threads here 7 or so years ago, we would have started on a better footing.

My brother's nephews are anywhere from 4 to 10 years old. They're ALL on psychologically altering meds because they have two parents who work overtime and can't deal with them. ALL THREE of them.... Maybe if one of them were on meds because they were a HUGE problem case, that would be one thing. I've met them about 5 or so times and they're really cool boys that just want to explore life and aren't bad kids.

Far be it for me to judge... But I already know that, at least in this point of my life, I would not be able to deal with 1 of them 24/7 let alone 3 of them. I also wouldn't be able to afford child support and/or alamony at the moment either, so I guess "Hooray for Me"....

That sympathy only goes so far on my part though. Those poor kids being introduced to drugs designed in a lab to make them "obedient soldiers" to their parents and teachers. Wasn't that what TV was invented in the 60's for, or video games in the 80's??????



I'm sorry Niki, because you will probably disagree with me, but the reason this is even considered as necessary is because both parents are working.

I'll meet you on middle ground and even say that some men are better as the stay at home one than the mom........ But the fact remains that The Kid's Aren't Okay when both parents work full time, even if they're still together.

Both my step-brother and half-brother went to college for free based off of academics and sports. Sure, my half-bro had to get on meds at 19 for OCD, but he's under control now. He's the pure genius of the family. He skipped a grade twice in his life and will be teaching "kids" younger than him. He went to a 50k a year school for free for 4 years and will actually be paid 20k a year with free tuition and books to do research at an Ivy League school. He's abnormally smart though.... In history most truly smart people could have probably benefited from some pharmaceutical help in hindsight.


My main point here is that they weren't "dulled" at a young age. Not only was my step-mom HOME for them, but my Dad was involved in all of their sports and plays and school as they grew up.

They had a chance, and had a huge support system from the beginning.

I fully admit that I'll never be half the man my Dad was. If I get into this union job though, I can find a really special woman who can be the "domestic Goddess" that not only keeps the kids on the straight and narrow, but can keep me in check from day to day.

The biggest mistake that Males made in the past was dismissing their wives roles as "playtime".

Aside from my Dad, who not only got free room and board at college for his new family, but married a 20 year old when he was 40 and is getting my "troubled" brother government help when nobody else could..... My step-mom is my hero. Not only did my 2 youngest brothers evolve and put a college education behind them that will always ensure they have a job (SEE: not a liberal arts degree).... Everytime I went to their house it was immaculately clean, and I always left with a full belly of some of the best food I've ever tasted.


I'm not even saying that I will ever have kids, but I'm way too young to say no if I found the right girl under the right circumstances.


"Where do you see yourself in 10 years, if we hired you", they said at the interview?

Well... I'd like to have a few toys... Maybe upgrade my stero-less 17 year old Camry.... But really, I'd love to be able to support an entire family on one income and have a loving mother stay at home to raise the kids. As successful as my youngest brothers have been so far would not have been possible if both parents worked full time and somebody else was paid to raise them.



Drugs to kids isn't a symptom of "Evil Pharma/Government" screwing our kids up. The "need" alone is the symptom. The fact that we can't legalize weed but we can pump our kids full of these poisons is just another symptom.

If parents would just stand up and do their fucking job, the drugs wouldn't be needed. If you're not ready to have kids, and it takes two incomes to raise a kid, you're a shitty parent.


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Sunday, March 31, 2013 4:40 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

For example, I recently heard a pyschiatrist talk about how too many women were misdiagnosed with depression and given treatments accordingly in their middle years, when they were in fact suffering from hormonal imbalances.
Horrible story- I work with a woman who was suffering from weight gain, irregular periods, and thinning hair and serious fatigue. She was bounced back and forth between her GP and her OB/GYN. They ran the standard battery of tests, but since she was of a certain age they tried to convince her that what was happening was standard menopause combined with depression. THis went on for a year, finally she did some desk pounding and the OB GYN ran a different test then... hmmm... then more tests.... then a CT scan... then a diagnosis of a brain tumor near the pituitary gland. Fortunately the tumor was benign and the surgery successful. But still....!

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Monday, April 1, 2013 6:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


What Magons said, in spades. And Sig, that's actually a GOOD story; I'm horrified by what she suffered, but damn, she TRIUMPHED over the medical community in the end, and it came out okay...that's cause for celebration!

As to meds, I could go on for ages, but won't. My entire life has changed since giving up my meds...weight is still dropping off, which blows my mind. I always knew psychotropics were weight gainers, but blamed myself mostly for lack of self-control, so what's happened has been a real shock. Let's see, I just passed 30 lbs. off in the last two months, without trying in the slightest! Yeah, my habits have changed, virtually no interest in desserts--even when I have one, it's kinda "eh..."--and I'm eating my main meal mid-day instead of 7pm, but still...!

That thing about women pisses me off especially; our metabolysms slow down with age to begin with, so we put on weight more easily; then you hit us with psychotropics for supposed "depression", and the weight just piles on some of us...and they don't think that increases depression? By the way, I long suspected I had mild depression but figured that was just the part the meds weren't taking care of (and my own fault for lack of self-motivation). I'm DEFINITELY not depressed now, and of course we've all heard how one of the "potential side effects" of antidepressants CAN BE depression. Grrrrr!

The way I look at it, the differences in my moods aren't NEARLY worth all the side effects I had before medication...I'm not knocking meds completely, mind you, they were an important part of my treatment--AT FIRST! But I think meds to help until we work at dealing with some things ourselves (IF we're willing to do the work!) should be the priority. I wonder what my life would have been like if I hadn't stayed on 'em all these years?

For those suffering and unable to function, I would never say "don't take meds", but for everyone I would say "do your research, know yourself, weigh the consequences and THINK long and hard about staying on them any length of time", at the very least.

ETA: Uhhh...my eye caught "forgive me Niki" in a post above; dunno what he had to say, but doubt I missed anything...but someone might remind him that I DON'T READ HIS THREADS, so he shouldn't waste his time directing things at me. Just sayin'...


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