REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Savage behavior

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Monday, December 5, 2011 16:40
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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:04 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Strangely, Magon, I'm incredibly familiar with the field, and yeah, I do know two people who've had it, and I was slated to have it myself, until I sued to get control of my life back.

I also know about depression. It's a simple problem with a simple solution, devised back in the early '90s. (earlier if you count west african voodoo) It's a crime that it continues. (depression, not voodoo)

Here's the incredibly simple problem:

Depression is a lack of serotonin in the brain, caused by a breakdown in the system and resulting in the shutdown of neural pathways associated with perspective-based thinking.

SSRIs don't always work because SSRIs do not increase your serotonin level, they decrease your serotonin reuptake, which is one way your serotonin levels can get depleted, but not the only one.

Serotonin starts out life in the gut, as tryptophan. Certain probiotic bacteria can change tryptophan in 5-HTP, which is the only form that the brain will recognize (fortunately, you can also get 5-htp in powder form, as it's 40% of the west african griffonius seed by weight.)

Once the 5htp gets into the brain it is metabolized by the hypothalmus into serotonin. 95% of all depression cases are the result of a serotonin dietary deficiency. The other 5% can come from a variety of related causes, such as lack of metabolites (most commonly Vitamin B6) or less commonly necrosis in the hypothalmus, typically caused by high level heavy metal contamination.

I'm sorry someone you care about had to go through ETC, but that is how it works. It induces a grand mal seizure, which causes brain damage, that's the MoA. It's barbaric, and obsolete. You can choose to travel forward with this knowledge and not have someone else go through that, or you can invest yourself psychologically in the past and not see it, but I actually do know what I'm talking about in this.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.



I think it is your incredible arrogance that gets my gander up, DT. Once again, another area of incredible expertise that you possess, to the point where you dispute all other scientific data relating to efficacy of treatment because you, in your infinite wisdom know best. You are a supreme example of how a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

As I was close to someone who had ECT I can unequivacely disprove your assertion that it 'sombiefies' someone. What it did was kick start them out of a severe and debilitating depression. My loved one continued to have various treatments for depression and, although continued to suffer bouts throughout her lifetime, never to that extent again. She had highs and lows, and was not in any way like an emotionless zombie. I have known one other person to receive this treatment, but cannot give as accurate picture to the affect on her.

The procedure has been done badly in the past and there has been a lot of horrible stuff where people have been coerced into treatments. I don't approve.

Regardless of your assertions, research indicates that ECT is effective. Most people find it distasteful because it seems frightening and drastic, but as CTS points out, most drugs can also have dramatic effects upon brain chemistry. But I would understand why someone would elect to not have that procedure.

As for your 'depression is easy to fix' notion, well good luck to you. Personally, I think quick fix easy solutions to wide spread complex problems and for those of us who have suffered or who have had loved ones who suffer from depression, and have tried many, many solutions (with variable success), seem a bit trite and insulting.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:36 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Not ALL medicine is bad. And some is live-saving and necessary.

No one disputes this.

The dispute lies in WHICH medicine is bad, and which are life-saving and necessary.

A deeper dispute lies in WHO gets to decide for OTHER PEOPLE, which medicine is bad, and which are life-saving and necessary for everyone.

-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:01 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by canttakesky:
Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
You're no longer depressed because you are zombified. No mental health goal is worth this.

A lot of psychiatric treatment is zombification one way or another. It doesn't matter if they do it electrically, or chemically (neuroleptics), or surgically (lobotomy). Their goals here are not to truly heal and give the person as much freedom and self-actualization as possible, but to make the person less annoying whatever the cost.





Not so much as a sidetrack as an over statement. You and DT are so extreme in your views. So you are saying that ALL treatment is about pacifying the patient - victim in your view. That psychiatrists are evil beings whose aim in life is to create passivity in the human population, a kind of mind control. Do you consider that any treatments may be beneficial for patients and increase their quality of life?

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:07 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Medical malpractice. Why can doctors kill out of incompetence?


Another one of your soap box themes, that doctors kill more people than wars.
I would guess it would be ever unlikely to be time where there would be no such thing as human error. sometimes doctors get it wrong. Sometimes accountants do, teachers, dentists, car mechanics.

How do you suggest that medical malpractice be reduced? In your world there would be no formal education, we'd all be learning how to do open heart surgery via internet instructions, because who needs expertise or formal training, right? I am sure that would prevent medical errors and deaths.

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Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:08 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"A deeper dispute lies in WHO gets to decide for OTHER PEOPLE, which medicine is bad ..."

Oddly enough, the best practice of medicine is statistical. It gets the most effective treatment to the most people the fastest, important when time can mean disability or death.

As macabre as people saw it back then, the army can be credited with sparking EMS services today. It was their statistical analysis of battlefield treatment in Vietnam, along with the realization that trained technicians were just as capable as doctors in stabilizing patients, that led to the EMS field, the specific procedures, and the analytical evaluation tools in use today.

The SAME process can improve medicine today IF medical practice can be prized out of the hands of vested interests. And yes, your naturopath is just as much a vested interest as Pfizer as Humana.

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Monday, December 5, 2011 3:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Gloves are coming off, I pride myself on being nice and trying to be diplomatic, but I've been here long enough, 10 months, that I'm going to start saying whatever I want to whomever I want and see what happens..

I think Cavellier's world would be a horrible place to live because I hate globalization/one world culture, super yuck, I never want to live in Cavellier land, never. If we were all the same then what's the point?

I think a lot of you are thinking towards happy fuzzy Star Trek land, not a bad thing but not a realistic thing. If there's one thing I know its that things cycle around and around and around, the same problems crop up over and over with different encarnations. The concept of debt for instance is heading us back towards old school endincherment, its not American slavery, but endincherment is basically a type of slavery. Cudos to whomever mentioned it before, I think it was DT?

In Old Ireland if you committed a crime that was the worst crime, kinslaying, you were sent away from the island, you're not our problem now, it sort of relates to the idea of sending prisoners away somewhere else, just less organized. Women in this time period had lots more rights than they did in most places at many times in history. If someone wanted to engage in revenge killings, escalating into feuding, on their own then that was their business, it definitely happened. But if they wanted to use the legal system then revenge killing wasn't a popular punishment therein.

DT, I've been really nice to you about all the mental health stuff because I respect your experience and I'm glad you've found the thing that gets you feeling well, that is super cool and you're quite knowledgeable about depression and medicine from the earth. But when it comes to the rest of it your own experiences have made you very very very very biassed. Everyone's brain works differently and so some people can greatly benefit from what you've found affective for you but not everyone does. Just like some people benefit from regular medicine and some don't.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, December 5, 2011 4:40 PM

DREAMTROVE


Riona,

Sorry, we're not *that* different. I mean, cutting synapses is not good for anyone's brain. Everyone's brain need serotonin, at least, if you're a species on the simian evolution chain this side of the last mass extinction. I will grant that people's *minds* work differently, but their *brains* do not, not any more than their hands, hearts, lungs or toes. It's a genetically encoded physical part of the species.


Magon,

I wrote a long response, but I see it did not get saved, and I lack the will or the time to go and do it over.

Suffice it to say I disagree, and "research indicates" is not a winning argument. It is not that it is "done badly" anymore than police brutality is "done badly." Maybe one in four psychiatrists have some clue of how the brain works. As for the rest, it might as well be a religion. I mean psychiatry as in pharmapyschology and other more radical medical procedures, not psychotherapy. There are a lot of psychotherapists who really know what they're talking about. It's a much more advanced field.

Also, I'm not nearly as anti pharma as CTS and Frem here, I actually think there are branches of pharma that are quite advanced and generally on the right track, and I hesitatingly say that oncology may be one of those.

IMHO Here's a better idea than shock therapy:



... only because "better idea than shock therapy" is an all encompassing term"

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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