REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

What's up with TARGET: EPA! ??

POSTED BY: PIZMOBEACH
UPDATED: Thursday, December 22, 2011 15:45
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Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:41 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


You know, they have what's called" secondary recovery" of (sour heavy) crude out of California wells - where they pump hot liquid and chemicals under pressure into the geological structure to get oil back out. And it's all cool until something breaks. Which it does btw. I spent about 60 hours straight analyzing the stuff coming up out of parking garage floors, fire hydrant openings, street manhole coverings etc. That was a big OOOPs on the part of the oil company. And did you hear the one about the gas company? They have these geological structures where they pump natural gas into them under pressure to store locally until they need to draw it out during high demand. Until they pressurize it too much and it breaks, which has also happened here in CA. And THEN, there is one PROVEN case of water table contamination due to fracking.

This whole scenario - breaking geological structures in an unanticipated way - is completely known by those in the biz. The whole idea that it's just a theoretical possibility is pure corporate BS.

And you are just a shill. Or, maybe, abysmally ignorant.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:26 PM

DREAMTROVE


I might sic my mom on you. She has details on this stuff ;)

Kiki,

Also people's houses blowing up because the basements filled with methane.


Nick,

again, I say, just as a new yorker being familiar with our DEC, it's pretty thoroughly corrupt. If they're trying to cut ahead of the conclusion of the EPA study, you need no science to conclude that it is an action in favor of the gas companies.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:27 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
You know, they have what's called" secondary recovery" of (sour heavy) crude out of California wells - where they pump hot liquid and chemicals under pressure into the geological structure to get oil back out. And it's all cool until something breaks. Which it does btw. I spent about 60 hours straight analyzing the stuff coming up out of parking garage floors, fire hydrant openings, street manhole coverings etc. That was a big OOOPs on the part of the oil company.



....and what did you find? Was it ever determined where the "stuff" came from? I ask because you stated "it's all cool until something breaks", does that mean something went wrong and the "stuff" was pumped out of the well through a crack closer to the surface?

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:And did you hear the one about the gas company? They have these geological structures where they pump natural gas into them under pressure to store locally until they need to draw it out during high demand. Until they pressurize it too much and it breaks, which has also happened here in CA.


They do the same with treated water, the problem they are finding is not over pressurizing, but increased Arsenic levels in the water when recovered.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:And THEN, there is one PROVEN case of water table contamination due to fracking.


Are you talking about methane contamination or contamination from fracking fluids?

If you are talking about fracking fluids you maybe talking about this. http://www.propublica.org/article/does-an-old-epa-fracking-study-provi
de-proof-of-contamination

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=chemicals-found-in-dr
inking-water-from-natural-gas-drilling&page=3

The contamination in Wyoming very well may lead to conclusion that fracking was the cause, in one way of another. Or it may not.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:And you are just a shill. Or, maybe, abysmally ignorant.


Whats wrong? Don't like people asking questions and challenging your views?

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:45 PM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Nick,

again, I say, just as a new yorker being familiar with our DEC, it's pretty thoroughly corrupt. If they're trying to cut ahead of the conclusion of the EPA study, you need no science to conclude that it is an action in favor of the gas companies.



....that maybe so, but that argument will not advance your cause. Unfortunately the burden of proof is on the opponents of fracking.

I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:50 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"....and what did you find? Was it ever determined where the "stuff" came from? I ask because you stated "it's all cool until something breaks", does that mean something went wrong and the "stuff" was pumped out of the well through a crack closer to the surface?"

Well, yes, we DID figure out where it came from. It came from an oil company that had over-pressurized the field and broke the rock, the pipes, and the well-casing - and the pressurized oil and extraction fluids, moving up to areas of lower pressure, came out wherever they encountered a surface penetration - alongside pipes and foundations - in downtown LA.

Did you not understand that? I thought it was abundantly clear. Do you need me to use smaller words? Or simpler concepts?

They broke the ground and pushed nasty out.

Got it now?

"They do the same with treated water, the problem they are finding is not over pressurizing, but increased Arsenic levels in the water when recovered."

That's a completely pointless bit. What does that have to do with companies accidentally breaking geological structures by over-pressurizing them? Unless you mean to say that they ALSO accidentally break geological structures with water. In which case - THANKS! - for making my point for me!


As for ground water contamination due to fracking: "Researchers from Duke University added to the debate, publishing a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that found a correlation between shale drilling activity and the seepage of contaminants, particularly methane, into drinking water wells.[4] "

[4] Methane Contamination of Drinking Water Accompanying Gas-Well Drilling and Hydraulic Fracturing, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (Apr. 2011).




So, sit down and shut up, unless you want to further look like a fool, and a tool.

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:12 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think it may be possible to discuss this, and even disagree, without insulting one another.

Slinging insults is unnecessary when you have good science, logic, and evidence on your side.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Thursday, August 25, 2011 6:23 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


My very bad. I got caught up early in the snark like this: I would read the story of Chicken Little if I w(h)ere you. Shoulda' stepped back and remembered - this is a very small part of my life, which is an infinitesimally small part of the world.


It's just that - I know what happens in the biz by experience. Shit happens. It has happened more than once in my very small area of the world in a very short span of time - less than a half-dozen years. Anyone who tries to pretend like it doesn't is, well ... annoying.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 2:21 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"....and what did you find? Was it ever determined where the "stuff" came from? I ask because you stated "it's all cool until something breaks", does that mean something went wrong and the "stuff" was pumped out of the well through a crack closer to the surface?"

Well, yes, we DID figure out where it came from. It came from an oil company that had over-pressurized the field and broke the rock, the pipes, and the well-casing - and the pressurized oil and extraction fluids, moving up to areas of lower pressure, came out wherever they encountered a surface penetration - alongside pipes and foundations - in downtown LA.

Did you not understand that? I thought it was abundantly clear. Do you need me to use smaller words? Or simpler concepts?



You simply said something broke, you where not specific as to what. It makes a difference that the well casing broke and allowed the fluid to be pumped out much closer to the ground.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
They broke the ground and pushed nasty out.

Got it now?



Yes, now that you added details above.

Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They do the same with treated water, the problem they are finding is not over pressurizing, but increased Arsenic levels in the water when recovered."

That's a completely pointless bit. What does that have to do with companies accidentally breaking geological structures by over-pressurizing them? Unless you mean to say that they ALSO accidentally break geological structures with water. In which case - THANKS! - for making my point for me!



The point was that underground storage is not unique to the gas industry, nor are problems with it. Also I have not argued that this type of storage does not breaking geo structures.


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
As for ground water contamination due to fracking: "Researchers from Duke University added to the debate, publishing a paper in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that found a correlation between shale drilling activity and the seepage of contaminants, particularly methane, into drinking water wells.[4] "

[4] Methane Contamination of Drinking Water Accompanying Gas-Well Drilling and Hydraulic Fracturing, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (Apr. 2011).



Have I at any time stated that I did not believe reports regarding the Methane concamination. No. Perhaps you should know what I'm arguing against before you jump on me.

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Friday, August 26, 2011 7:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Nick, you're buying into the level of discourse, just as Kiki did, and it doesn't gain you any respect. Disagreeing is normal, but HOW we disagree says more about us than any facts or figures we offer. I know you can do better.

As to your remarks being aimed at Nick rather than at me, DT, there is a perfect example of how things that are not aimed or intended for one person can be misunderstood by another; something you've had happen to you.

As to
Quote:

...he has the air of that newly appointed king of the world
And that's how you come across to a good number of US, as has been mentioned previously by myself and others. Trust me, that's not your "former" self, by any means!

You have no problem hurling insults at others, yet are so sensitive to being "attacked", even when there are no attacks there (I'm not speaking of this thread, which has had its share of snarks going both ways).

You said you watched him "talk over others"...how exactly is that possible on a forum? He's free to express his opinion just as you or anyone else is; if what he says or how he says it pisses you off, you have as much right to respond. But if you respond with snarks, expect no sympathy when you complain about being picked on. At least Nick has never done that, and you have, repeatedly.

Anthony is quite right. He tried twice, but seems to have remained unheard, except by Kiki:
Quote:

I humbly submit that this thread has widely deviated from its purpose, and is no longer serving to deepen the wisdom of mankind, nor foster goodwill between fellow humans.
Quote:

think it may be possible to discuss this, and even disagree, without insulting one another.

Slinging insults is unnecessary when you have good science, logic, and evidence on your side.

I'm sure glad you came back, Anthony, you are probably our most civil poster and often act as our conscience, for which I thank you (whether it works or not).

I would love it if we could get back to the ACTUAL original point of this thread, but it may be to late for that, and that's fine. Threads go where they go, but it's sad to see those of us who AREN'T Raptor or Wulf, etc., dive into the gutter.

I will now shut up and stop acting like a mother hen; if nobody wants to hear what Anthony has to say, there's no point in trying further.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, August 29, 2011 11:26 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I'm civil. ... Most of the time, plus its not like Anthony is the head saint of fireflyfans.net. I agree with him often, but he can be snotty and lack understanding sometimes, just as all of us can.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, August 29, 2011 12:13 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


"its not like Anthony is the head saint of fireflyfans.net."

Hello,

Thank you for defending me against such spurious accusations.

--Anthony


_______________________________________________

“If you are not free to choose wrongly and irresponsibly, you are not free at all”

Jacob Hornberger

“Freedom is not worth having if it does not connote freedom to err. It passes my comprehension how human beings, be they ever so experienced and able, can delight in depriving other human beings of that precious right.”

Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, August 29, 2011 12:17 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Can't help but smile. :) that would be rather no fun.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 3:44 PM

DREAMTROVE


Auraptor,

My apologies for the delay. This account is linked to a long dead email so I don't get PMs, I just managed to dig out one from you sent on Aug 1st 2011 in response to my post above.

In answer to your question: From both. Under attack from both at home and abroad. The powers attacking this nation through environmental degradation, also known as attrition, also know, in an earlier definition used by our country, as terrorism.

The war of attrition targets civilian population. The nature of this attack is to turn the US into a resource mining colony, much like western powers have used Africa for much of the 20th c. Many of these attackers are international corporations, but some are foreign govts., China, in particular.

The nature of radical mining techniques such as fracking is that they do untold and unnecessary damage to the surface of the US, for the purpose of extraction of resources at minimum cost. This is standard colony rape. We witnessed it all over Africa. We're becoming someone else's resource bitch, and it's a serious problem.

But, if you will entertain a little conspiracy, there is also an element of chemical contamination that seems to me at least partially deliberate. The use of fracking fluid does not seem to have a significant impact on the yield of wells, yet represents more industrial pollution than all of US industry combined. The effect of this could easily be permanent contamination of vast swaths of rural America. Each individual well uses more chemical nerve agents than we claimed (and were right to claim,) that Saddam Hussein had (and he did have them) prior to the invasion of Iraq. This means every time a well gets "fracked" it amounts to a massive chemical weapons assault* on the united states.

* It's important here to distinguish between horizontal fracturing c. 2005, which is what we mean by "fracking"; and vertical fracturing which is a long standing natural gas extraction technique, c. 1950.

Also, it's worth adding that MTR, or mountaintop removal, is radically destructive to the Appalachian mountains including including the blue ridge, and that in this process, the offenders have detonated more explosives to deface America than were used in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sorry for the necropost, but it seemed the most logical way to respond.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:12 PM

BYTEMITE


Sig, you got it before I did. Nicely done.

Yes, releasing fluid under pressure deforms overlaying strata. Combined with earthquakes caused by fracking, which makes use of existing fault systems, and the horizontal arrangement of the layers, contamination can spread wide laterally and find upward cracks in the system, and also the pressure alone can force it all upwards through the strata.

The oil in the BP oil spill was not JUST coming from the partially exploded well... the explosion deformed strata and pressure forced oil to the surface, through thousands of feet.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:32 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I don't see the fluids pumped into the ground as an issue with the ground water.


If you mean dumping fracking fluid on roads as brine, that's how leaching HAPPENS. Leaching to groundwater. You put enough on the soil, some will sorb on the soil particles but the stuff is heavier than air, gravity pulls the rest down through the pore space until it hits the saturated zone.

If the stuff is an LNAPL, lighter than water, it'll spread out on the surface. If it's a DNAPL, it'll sink in the system until it hits an impermeable layer and either pools or passes through, or you have flow in a strata that mobilizes, or it disperses into solution, or all of the above.

If you're pumping it in deep, you're pumping it in to the groundwater system. When you fracture a strata, you release fluid into overlying layers, and potentially to strata subject to the recharge/discharge flow pattern. And even when you're in impermeable layers, transmissivity is not zero. This stuff WILL eventually migrate as dictated by groundwater flow.

No matter what, dumping or pumping these fluids is an issue with groundwater. The question YOU'RE meaning to ask is if it is an issue with drinking water. But that's not the only issue here, many of the impacted areas have a shallow water table, and so vapour intrusion is a concern.

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Tuesday, December 20, 2011 6:39 PM

BYTEMITE


Oops, necropost. I wonder how I didn't see this before.

well, it's an important topic.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 9:55 AM

M52NICKERSON

DALEK!


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
If you mean dumping fracking fluid on roads as brine, that's how leaching HAPPENS. Leaching to groundwater. You put enough on the soil, some will sorb on the soil particles but the stuff is heavier than air, gravity pulls the rest down through the pore space until it hits the saturated zone.

If the stuff is an LNAPL, lighter than water, it'll spread out on the surface. If it's a DNAPL, it'll sink in the system until it hits an impermeable layer and either pools or passes through, or you have flow in a strata that mobilizes, or it disperses into solution, or all of the above.

If you're pumping it in deep, you're pumping it in to the groundwater system. When you fracture a strata, you release fluid into overlying layers, and potentially to strata subject to the recharge/discharge flow pattern. And even when you're in impermeable layers, transmissivity is not zero. This stuff WILL eventually migrate as dictated by groundwater flow.

No matter what, dumping or pumping these fluids is an issue with groundwater. The question YOU'RE meaning to ask is if it is an issue with drinking water. But that's not the only issue here, many of the impacted areas have a shallow water table, and so vapour intrusion is a concern.



I was talking about pumping it into the ground. The thing is that you can pump deep enough that you are not affecting the ground water. Useable ground water is only found so far down.

Now since this thread started the EPA has found evidence of fracking fluids contaminating ground water. The chemicals are either being forced up into the ground water table, or are leaking into it from the walls of the bore holes.

How ever it is with this evidence the fracking should be stopped.


I do not fear God, I fear the ignorance of man.

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:35 AM

CANTTAKESKY


DT,

Saw this today. Thought you might find it of interest.

http://judicial-corruption.net/2011/12/the-fracking-industry-has-bough
t-off-congress-here-are-the-worst-offenders-thanks-to-our-morally-bankrupt-political-system-the-supreme-courts-ruling-on-citizens-united-the-fracking-lobbys-po
/

-----
"Christmas is a time when kids tell Santa what they want and adults pay for it. Deficits are when adults tell the government what they want - and their kids pay for it." - Richard Lamm

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Wednesday, December 21, 2011 11:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

I was talking about pumping it into the ground. The thing is that you can pump deep enough that you are not affecting the ground water. Useable ground water is only found so far down.


While it's true that pore space in strata at depth becomes so small that it no longer permits groundwater, that does NOT generally occur within 5,000 feet of the surface (it's more like a few miles down, not just one). While this does depend on the area, this is especially true in deposition basins with a lot of unconsolidated sediment from nearby mountains... Such as east of the Appalachians, or perhaps here in Salt Lake City, where in places we have more than 10,000 feet of unconsolidated sediment, and water all through it.

Companies are very much drilling into saturated strata.

You might be able to argue about usability of that deep groundwater, but the biggest problem it'll have is that it'll be mineralized, which is easily treated. In fact, my understanding is they were trying to TREAT some of the waste water for drinkability, though they were ending up still with a lot of radiological contamination.

And this also is not giving credence to the actual fracturing of the strata in question allowing pressurized fluid into overlaying strata, nor is it considering that the well construction and casing is often slipshod, nor that there's been a rash of blowouts from well misuse and undermaintenance. All of which could release contamination in strata closer to the surface than the layer being drilled.

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Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:45 PM

DREAMTROVE


Also worth noting two things about deep injection well. "Up to 8,000 feet" is often much shorter than that. Ithaca shale can be seen its entirety, as can the Geneseo shale formation beneath it, at Taughannock Falls which is 200 feet high. Frackers are planning to drill not far from there. It is safe to say that it is both shale formations are above the base of the water table in this area because you can see the water literally run straight through the entirety of both formations.



If fracking were to create, as it intends to, long fissues horizontally through shale formations, all major shale formations break the surface at some point. This is a fold mountain range, rock formations are not lying flat under ground.

That said, the brine is also a major threat.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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