REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Wisconsin Senate Limits Bargaining by Public Workers - FINALLY !

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, March 18, 2011 07:46
SHORT URL:
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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


crikey...dreaded double post.

My kingdom for a delete option !

(sigh)


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:28 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


1kiki,

You're wallowing in the Dunning- Kruger delusion, confident in your ignorance. Sadly it affects most on the mob mentality of the far Left.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, March 14, 2011 4:36 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Hi Geezer


I apologize sincerely and I'm very happy to be wrong about you. Thanks for posting.

ETA I'm also happy to read your opinion on this. Because while there is only one reality and therefore one set of facts, there are many opinions, usually based on an idea of how things will play out in the future. And the future, being an unknown, is fertile territory for speculation.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 4:45 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


And yet Rap, I have yet to see you refute a single fact that SignyM has posted with an actual fact of your own. Nope, you just keep spouting ignorant propaganda. Like - and may I remind you - WMDs existed! The economy was ON FIRE! THEY don't pay taxes! Fannie and Freddie CAUSED the meltdown! And a few other choice idiocies.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 6:32 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I'll be damn glad of that, Geeze - be nice to have someone rational to argue with for a change, since it seems to ever be the most effective way of refining concepts into solutions.

-F

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Monday, March 14, 2011 7:22 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

I've been neutral on this subject (As I will try to be on all subjects, henceforth.) because I'm no longer interested in getting into the ususal "You're a Fascist! No. You're a Commie!" rut. I'd like to discuss the issues without it becoming a partisan slug-fest. I don't hold out much hope for this plan, but will give it a try.


It's a good plan, they're a lot nicer when they think you might agree with them.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 7:51 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I don't care what people think as long as they can back it up with facts and engage in discussion with logic and without too many propagandist techniques. Where people really lose my patience is when they spout lies, show the logic of a nutcase (Rap for example, claims that Freddie and Fannie CAUSED the meltdown, even though clearly both institutions didn't wobble until far after it had already started) and use disinformation tactics.

Other than that, it's all shiny.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 9:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
And yet Rap, I have yet to see you refute a single fact that SignyM has posted with an actual fact of your own. Nope, you just keep spouting ignorant propaganda. Like - and may I remind you - WMDs existed! The economy was ON FIRE! THEY don't pay taxes! Fannie and Freddie CAUSED the meltdown! And a few other choice idiocies.



I've refuted every single one of those, thank you very much. And why must I refute that which is so universally known ? Must I refute that the Earth isn't flat ? Or at the centre of the universe ? Does me not doing so here make it not so ?

How many times are you going to go back down those dead end issues, to dodge from having to deal w/ the present issues ? My guess, based on what I've seen, you'll do this for as long as you live.

And you're flat out wrong about the Freddie / Fannie matter. I proved that, whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 9:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


(Going back from where I last posted) Ah, I see Sig; I know that, as well as knowing Mike just likes to get their goat...I guess it just makes me whince from time to time, hee, hee, hee.

Yes, Kiki:
Quote:

Now, normally the idea of him talking himself off the edge of sanity gives me a perverse sort of delight in contemplating it
me, too...but I don’t mind Sig getting “tangled up” TOO much, I know it’s her choice and she enjoys herself, but sometimes I give in to the urge to mention “pissing into the wind”. I don’t get much pleasure watching him go off the edge, because I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give a damn, and given it’s just visceral button pushing, I don’t think his brain is too engaged anyway...and we KNOW none of them have any sense of embarrassment... So why bother, all one gets back is exactly what he’s said here, and no facts will EVER convince him or any other button-pusher anything but what they NEED to believe, so...

I agree with both you and Geezer:
Quote:

Now, normally the idea of him talking himself off the edge of sanity gives me a perverse sort of delight in contemplating it
and
Quote:

I think they (and a lot of Republicans) are pushing too hard for too extreme an agenda, and may well generate a backlash in 2012 if they keep it up
I started noticing that right away, and the blatant way it’s being done kinda surprises me...do they think nobody’s noticing, or do they really think people won’t mind? I can’t figure it out.

What I’m coming away with the past few years is that Republicans are really GREAT at manipulation, trickery and cheerfully using contemptible ways of gaining power/getting elected, but seem to be total numbnuts at actually GOVERNING! It sure seems that way. Given I’ve been convinced for quite some time now that they have actually been working to WORSEN things like the economy in hopes of it giving them power in 2012, that was one thing. They could do it and help just enough to attain their goal. But they’re being so obvious now, I can’t figure out whether they’re truly in a bubble out of touch with Americans or think they can manipulate the message in some way to get us to go along. The former seems to make more sense, because the latter just AIN’T gonna work, and might well cause that backlash Geezer mentioned (be still my heart, oh PLEASE!). All in all, it’s pretty weird.

Geezer, love, I wouldn’t put too much effort into your “plan”. You already know it won’t work, and I hate to see you go to the trouble when it’s doomed to fail from the start. Just be you; whether we agree or disagree, most of us here respect you and recognize it’s possible to communicate with you, who cares about the rest? The adults can manage to converse AROUND the trolls if we try, and not let them derail us, yes? Sometimes anyway...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 14, 2011 9:55 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Oh, with 'facts' like this Rap?

"If Walker needs the Nat Guard, it'll be because the union thugs are unreasonable, irrational moochers who'll resort to violence to get their way.
The adults have finally had enough, and gone forward on doing their job. Unlike the cowards who fled across state lines."

Or this?

"Unions aren't "working people"."

Or this?

"Then let them live with mob rule, and ignore the rule of law."

And how come you never answered a single question about what YOU produce? What do YOU do for work, Rap?


Why did you not address all the FACTS on this entire posts:

"Countrywide, Citibank, BoA etc which sold fraudulent loans

Goldman Sachs, UBS (and others) which sold fraudulent collateralized debt obligations (CDOs)

Insurances like AIG which sold naked Credit Default Swaps (CDSs)

Insiders who KNEW this was going to come down like a house of cards and used the opportunity to create a blizzard of fake paper so they could engage in insider trading, line their pockets and run""

Why do you seem to be focused on Fannie and Freddie when you have YET to show that they CAUSED the meltdown. A simple timeline shows what happened first - and it wasn't Fannie or Freddie. Do you even KNOW what happened first? C'mon - take off your poopy diapers and put on your big boy pants and tell us - what melted down FIRST and cascaded the whole house of cards?

And give us some FACTS - how is it that the pensions lost value?




Rap - you are clearly delusional. So really, I don't expect anything even remotely resembling reality out of you. I just hope you have brayed your contempt for working people far and wide, in the real world, where people know who you are, and where you get to feel the target on your back.


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Monday, March 14, 2011 10:09 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg




"Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies"



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Monday, March 14, 2011 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
Oh, with 'facts' like this Rap?

"If Walker needs the Nat Guard, it'll be because the union thugs are unreasonable, irrational moochers who'll resort to violence to get their way.
The adults have finally had enough, and gone forward on doing their job. Unlike the cowards who fled across state lines."



A radio station obtained this e-mail: "Please put your things in order because you will be killed, and your families will be killed due to your actions in the last eight weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families, then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell."

Wisconsin authorities are taking this stuff seriously. They have a suspect. He has not been charged as far as we know.
Now, the situation is symptomatic of the bitter nationwide war going on between Republican cost-cutters and Democratic pro-union forces. There are hard feelings on both sides.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/transcript/bill-oreilly-death-th
reats-wisconsin#ixzz1GbhdbtfA


Quote:


Or this?

"Unions aren't "working people"."


Automakers' Jobs Bank Program Pays Laid-Off Workers to Do Nothing
By Maxim Lott
Published November 25, 2008
| FOXNews.com

Thousands of laid-off auto workers get paid $31 an hour to sit around and do nothing all year under a controversial program that could continue even if American taxpayers bail out the American auto industry.

The program, called "Jobs Banks," has been around for 24 years. Some of the employees at jobs banks choose to do community service, but others do crossword puzzles and watch TV all day -- or just stare at a wall. If you're a laid-off auto worker, it's what comes with your pink slip, thanks to a deal struck in 1984 between the United Auto Workers and the Big Three carmakers.
The program is likely to continue if Congress approves a $25 billion bailout of the industry. But if the automakers go bankrupt, some analysts say, they may be able to eliminate the program, which would abruptly eliminate benefits to the workers in it.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/11/25/automakers-jobs-bank-progra
m-pays-laid-workers#ixzz1GbpUX5o6


Quote:



Or this?

"Then let them live with mob rule, and ignore the rule of law."






Quote:



And how come you never answered a single question about what YOU produce? What do YOU do for work, Rap?

Irrelevant to the discussion.

Quote:


Why did you not address all the FACTS on this entire posts:

"Countrywide, Citibank, BoA etc which sold fraudulent loans

Goldman Sachs, UBS (and others) which sold fraudulent collateralized debt obligations (CDOs)

Insurances like AIG which sold naked Credit Default Swaps (CDSs)

Insiders who KNEW this was going to come down like a house of cards and used the opportunity to create a blizzard of fake paper so they could engage in insider trading, line their pockets and run""

Why do you seem to be focused on Fannie and Freddie when you have YET to show that they CAUSED the meltdown. A simple timeline shows what happened first - and it wasn't Fannie or Freddie. Do you even KNOW what happened first? C'mon - take off your poopy diapers and put on your big boy pants and tell us - what melted down FIRST and cascaded the whole house of cards?

And give us some FACTS - how is it that the pensions lost value?



I already showed the timeline, addressed and clearly showed that it was indeed Freddie and Freddie that caused the meltdown. Were they the sole contributors ? Nope. Never said they were. But by far, the burden of blame is rightfully laid at the feet of the Dems complicit in allowing Freddie and Fannie to be run so unscrupulously and recklessly. ALL in D.C. bear some of the blame, make no mistake.

Quote:


Rap - you are clearly delusional. So really, I don't expect anything even remotely resembling reality out of you. I just hope you have brayed your contempt for working people far and wide, in the real world, where people know who you are, and where you get to feel the target on your back.




Why would I feel a target on my back ? Are you threatening to shoot me ?

Like to see ya try, coward.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 11:02 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I'll be damn glad of that, Geeze - be nice to have someone rational to argue with for a change, since it seems to ever be the most effective way of refining concepts into solutions.

-F



I'm trying. I just got too het up doing the "Us vs.Them" thing.

BTW

I mentioned it above and thought you'd pick it up:

The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights.

That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Monday, March 14, 2011 11:03 AM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


Awwwww Wulf - that's so sweet. You saw Rap going down in flames and you came to defend him. Only one leeeeetle problem - you don't know what a fact is either. I'm sorry, but a rant is not fact, and it being an ooooooohhh ** VIDEO ** rant doesn't make it any better.

This is what a FACT looks like:

Public employees do have better health care and pensions—often needed to attract qualified employees to state government jobs such as police and firefighting. EVEN STILL, PUBLIC-SECTOR WAGES ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER THAN THOSE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SO TOTAL EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION IS LOWER THAN IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

In addition, according to our analysis of state government expenditures, TOTAL STATE EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION, INCLUDING WAGES AND BENEFITS, has not increased as a share of total state budget expenditures over the past 20 years. In fact, it HAS SLIGHTLY DECREASED (see chart).





You see - there are are dates and numbers, references even, things which an independent analysis could either refute or confirm. That is what a FACT looks like.


So, Wulf, care to debate FACTS? Or do you want to go Rap's route and become increasingly more delusional with time? Which is OK with me, because I do get some delight in watching your 'ilk' self-destruct.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 12:33 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh, gawd Wulf, that video (I even bothered to watch the first 2 minutes) is HYSTERICAL!! Is that the kind of place you get your opinions?
Quote:

If the employer is greedy or cheap, the workers may organize into a union. The union can then demand higher and higher pay and benefits until the employer goes out of business and is thus taught an important lesson about being nice, while all his now-unemployed workers can enjoy a hearty laugh at his discomfort.
Omigawd, what TRASH!!! Comparing unions to kings and queens? Total manipulative propaganda...now wonder you have the opinions you do!

Raptor, nice one. She wrote “I just hope you have brayed your contempt for working people far and wide, in the real world”—you know, REAL WORLD, where people like you and Wulf and Kane can actually DO more than just write vicious stuff. So who are the cowards exactly?

So let’s see...Tea Partiers threatening legislators lives constantly, anti-choice crazies not only threatening but actually KILLING people...etc., etc., none of this is reprehensible, but hey, it’s important to point out every single crazy who writes a threatening note to SOMEONE YOU AGREE WITH! Riiiiight. The people protesting in the State Capitol, many of whom cleaned up after THEMSELVES, count more than all those at Tea Party and such rallies, who also had to be cleaned up? The peaceful protesters who LEFT the Capitol building of their own free will, suspecting full well that they wouldn’t be let back in (which they weren’t as promised) are all thugs—oh, wait, that’s what the protesters in Libya are, Gadhafi told us so.

Let’s see; over there, a corrupt government hasn’t LET their people have rights and the ability to protest wrongs; over here, the Republicans are bent on destroying ALL unions, and stripping the people of the ability to protest wrongs. In both cases, those they protest call them thugs. Nope, no similarities whatsoever.

From your link, Raptor:
Quote:

Recall is fine if proper procedures are followed. But death threats and the destruction of property have to be prosecuted
What destruction of property? What about
Quote:

At least 10 House Democrats who voted Sunday for health care overhaul have received violent threats to their lives or property. Several members have faced death threats and harassing phone calls while others have experienced vandalism at district offices or their private homes.

In one case, a gas line was cut outside the Virginia home of Rep. Tom Perriello's brother after a conservative activist posted the address online, mistakenly thinking it was the congressman's house. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating.

Remember that one? Not just threats: ACTION. So you wanna count up the number of death threats legislators get on each side?

Oh, and by the way, how about:
Quote:

Right-wing death threats rise: Republicans should condemn Rush Limbaugh

Meanwhile, death threats are rising against Democratic public officials. Abusive calls and threats are made against the homes of prominent Democrats. One House Republican leader referred to a Democratic member and said he can't go home; he's a "dead man.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/media/88893-right-wing-death-thr
eats-rise-republicans-should-condemn-rush-limbaugh


Legislators, remember, not just regular American crazies...

Where was your outcry when all that was going on?? Oh, by the way, given your links were both to FauxNews, I guess I can post anything from anywhere, no matter how biased or how lying, and you won’t dismiss it anymore, yes?

Yes, Geezer, and despite the law omitting firefighters, I note they were right in there protesting with everyone else. Jezus, what thugs! Along with those other “thugs”, anarchists and rabble-rousers. From a person who wa there through the entire protest:
Quote:

I didn't see a single "anarchist" in the throngs of people, no one stirring up trouble just for the sake of it, no one instigating fights with the pro-Walker people or lighting cars on fire or whatever it is that Andrew Breitbart thinks anarchists do. I saw moms and dads and their kids, teachers and plumbers, security guards and cops and firefighters in kilts. Lots of college students. Plenty more retirees. No anarchists.

The night wasn't entirely without incident. Around 2 a.m., police officers in the capital ordered most of the protesters' signs to be removed and either trashed or stored in a massive pile for later use. That demand peeved a few people, to be sure, but for the most part everyone did as they were told. To their credit, the cops were firm but polite, taking questions, receptive to protesters' concerns.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/whats-happening-wisconsin-explaine
d


The REAL “thugs” are the right-wingers who thought nothing of planning dirty tricks:
Quote:

In a blog post today, right-wing radio host and ex-Tea Party Express spokesman Mark Williams said he plans to pose as an organizer for the Service Employees International Union and stir up trouble at a Sacramento labor union event. He's also urging his readers and other anti-labor folks to do the same in states around the country. "If I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there," Williams wrote. "With any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme." Here's Williams' plan in full, per his post:
Quote:

Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures...signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us) (6) we will echo those slogans in angry sounding tones to the cameras and the reporters. (7) if I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there…with any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme.
Williams goes on to say that his followers trying the same stunt should avoid confrontation because labor protesters "WILL have a mob mentality and ARE dangerous." He says lots of tea party groups have been barraging him with information about similar stunts and "vowing to participate and come up with their own creative ruses!"

Oh, yeah, that’s no thuggery, no, all on the up and up, fair and square, you betcha...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 14, 2011 12:35 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Here’s some background you might not know about Walker:
Quote:

Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill, which would strip away collective bargaining rights for public-sector unions, is a drastic, some would say draconian, piece of legislation. But it is not without precedent. As Milwaukee County executive, Walker fought to fire the county's unionized prison guards and replace them with private contractors. The results were disastrous.

Walker's initial attempt to sweep out unionized prison guards was blocked by the Milwaukee County board. But in March 2010, he unilaterally rammed through the measure under the guise of a budget crisis, a power grab that angered officials in Milwaukee County. To replace the union workers Walker hired Wackenhut, a controversy-riddled British contractor. (It was employees of a Wackenhut subsidiary at the heart of the Kabul embassy scandal, where, as Mother Jones first reported, contractors were revealed to be a crew of drunken, debaucherous hooligans that hazed other contractors and partied like out-of-control frat brothers. Think vodka butt shots.) In another controversy, Wackenhut security guards were videotaped sleeping on the job at a nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania, revelations that shook the industry and resulted in a heap of criticism for the company.

Walker's hiring of Wackenhut quickly became a nightmare. After ramming through the proposal, an arbiter said Walker overreached, and repealed the firing of the unionized prison guards. That arbiter ordered Milwaukee County to rehire the union workers and repay them for the wages they lost, costing the county upwards of $500,000.

He’s a union buster, as we already know, it has NOTHING to do with the budget

By the way, the world seems to be with the protesters and see similarities between their demonstrating for rights and the people of Wisconsin doing the same:
Quote:

The call reportedly arrived from Cairo. Pizza for the protesters, the voice said. It was Saturday, February 20th, and by then Ian's Pizza on State Street in Madison, Wisconsin, was overwhelmed. One employee had been assigned the sole task of answering the phone and taking down orders. And in they came, from all 50 states and the District of Columbia, from Morocco, Haiti, Turkey, Belgium, Uganda, China, New Zealand, and even a research station in Antarctica. More than 50 countries around the globe. Ian's couldn't make pizza fast enough, and the generosity of distant strangers with credit cards was paying for it all.


As to the claim that this is “what the people voted for”, that’s been disproven already. Whatever they thought Walker WOULD do, they don’t like what he HAS done.
Quote:

A new survey from Public Policy Polling released on Monday found that Walker's support has eroded among Wisconsin voters. In a hypothetical rematch with his 2010 Democratic opponent, Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, 52 percent of those voters say they'd opt for Barrett, while 45 percent picked Walker. That's a flip of the actual 2010 result, which saw Walker beat Barrett, 52 to 45 percent. It's actually Republicans, more so than Democrats or independents, whose shifting away from Walker would allow Barrett to win a rematch if there was one today. Only 3% of the Republicans we surveyed said they voted for Barrett last fall but now 10% say they would if they could do it over again.
In other words, they got duped: They bought into his campaign promises (you know, “jobs jobs jobs”) and are only now discovering how they were fooled.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 14, 2011 1:05 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money.




That seems to be the problem with capitalism, too. Ask Hank Paulson.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 1:07 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I'll be damn glad of that, Geeze - be nice to have someone rational to argue with for a change, since it seems to ever be the most effective way of refining concepts into solutions.

-F



I'm trying. I just got too het up doing the "Us vs.Them" thing.

BTW

I mentioned it above and thought you'd pick it up:

The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights.

That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors.

"Keep the Shiny side up"




It also allows the governor to sell the state-owned power utilities to private corporations in a no-bid transaction, something the Koch brothers will no doubt appreciate...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 2:20 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Mmmm, thank you Mike, I forgot about the "hidden" aspects of the "law":
Quote:

Much more, however, is at issue. On February 24, economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman headlined, "Shock Doctrine, USA," saying:

"What's happening in Wisconsin is....a power grab - an attempt to exploit the fiscal crisis to destroy the last major counterweight to the political power of corporations and the wealthy." It involves much more than union busting, bad as that is.

Hidden in the bill's 144 pages are "extraordinary things," including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally.

Another one states:

"16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss.196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49(3)(b)."

Call it the Koch brothers provision, multi-billionaire owners of Koch Industries, an industrial giant heavily invested in energy and power-related enterprises. According to Wisconsin campaign finance filings, Koch Industries PAC contributed $43,000 to Walker's gubernatorial campaign, second only to the $43,125 given by state housing and realtor groups.

Moreover, the Koch PAC helped Walker and other Republicans by contributing $1 million to the Republican Governors Association (RGA), that, in turn, spent $65,000 to support Walker and $3.4 million on television attack ads and mailings against his opponent, Milwaukee Democrat Mayor Tom Barrett. It made the difference between victory and defeat. Republican out-spent Democrats, sweeping many of their candidates to victory last November.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/02/26/18673060.php

...just in case anyone was curious about the details.



Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:14 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


YOUR lack of work IS relevant to the discussion, since you judge other people by theirs. So, what is it you don't for your money, Rap? And, do you think you are a leech on the system like you claim other people are?


"Please put your things in order because you will be killed, ..."

Was this from a 'union thug', or anyone writing on behest of a union? Show me where it says that. Show me. Now.


"I already showed the timeline, addressed and clearly showed that it was indeed Freddie and Freddie that caused the meltdown.

Riiiiiight.



"Why would I feel a target on my back ? Are you threatening to shoot me ?"

You poor retarded illiterate delusional fool. Did I not make it abundantly clear that your problem will not come from the people here but from those in your real life? (Assuming you have one, of couse.)



"Automakers' Jobs Bank Program Pays Laid-Off Workers to Do Nothing" and THEN it says "Most of the workers in the program accepted buyouts to leave it, and new work was found for the rest."

On the basis of an agreement that BOTH labor AND management benefited from, and which no longer exists, you claim that 'unions aren't working people'. All unions have zero working people, never had, do not now, and never will.

Your facts are non-existent, as is your logic BTW.



Because people want to recall the governor and legislature, it's mob rule? Really? Is that what you think of democracy? Signy is right. At least now we know where you stand.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:27 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


So if the public-sector workers in Wisconsin are now forbidden from joining a union, can they band together and call themselves a corporation? 'Cause if they did that, Walker would gladly suck their Kochs!

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:33 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Let me get this straight....
Quote:

including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally.
The peeps who cried long and loud about Obamacare "death panels" are OK with Gov Walker death panels?

No wonder the top of my head wants to blow off when I read these yutzes.

Rappy, Wulf, do you do anything with your brains other than keeping your hair from imploding?

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:35 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


I thought Kwicko was funny. On top of that I read yours. THANKS both for a good laugh.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:40 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


If someone is going to write a death threat, can't they keep family memeber killing out of it, yikes.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, March 14, 2011 3:58 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Let me get this straight....
Quote:

including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally.
The peeps who cried long and loud about Obamacare "death panels" are OK with Gov Walker death panels?

No wonder the top of my head wants to blow off when I read these yutzes.

Rappy, Wulf, do you do anything with your brains other than keeping your hair from imploding?




But don't you see, Signy? Telling the poor what THEY can do as far as healthcare is very different from telling the rich what they can do!

But yeah - OF COURSE they're all in favor of death panels. They just weren't a good idea until a tea-bagger had the idea.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 4:15 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"If someone is going to write a death threat, can't they keep family member killing out of it, yikes."

Supposedly they have a suspect but they aren't releasing the identity and haven't filed charges yet. I would be VERY curious when the information comes out, if it ever does. (I'm presuming if they don't file charges we will never know.)

I can see all sorts of potential stories - a Loughner type, or and agent provocateur, or maybe a person on a drunken angry rant (my first choice), or really a whole bunch of scenarios. But not a person acting under direction of a union, I guarantee it.

ETA But out of curiosity - what is happening with medical services WILL kill people. Family people. Fathers, mothers, children. Do you not have a 'yikes' for that? Just trying to gage your sense of proportion and what and who you value.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:21 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

If someone is going to write a death threat, can't they keep family memeber killing out of it, yikes.
Yeah, after all, who the hell does Gov Walker think he is, threatening the poor with death??

Oh, you weren't thinking of THAT death threat? Well, you should have been.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:34 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


About nothing in particular, I'm making bets with myself about the probability that Rap will come back and actually answer my post with facts.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Odd that not one right-winger here has expressed any outrage over the guy who just got arrested for posting on facebook that he was going to kill the President.

Also, not a bit of outrage from these folks about the right-wing New Hampshire legislator who says we should do away with "defective" people, the sick, the retarded, etc.

And similarly, no outrage expressed over the GOP lawmaker in Kansas who suggested controlling immigration the same way they control feral hogs: by shooting them.

Seems everyone is supposed to police their own and denounce the ugliest among them - unless you're speaking to a "conservative", of course.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 5:36 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
About nothing in particular, I'm making bets with myself about the probability that Rap will come back and actually answer my post with facts.




Keep chasin' the dream! It hasn't ever happened yet, but I suppose there's always a first time.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, March 14, 2011 8:01 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights.

That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors.


Of course not, you never piss off the praetorian guard, especially when you're busy staging a coup.

It's still a damn bad idea, and the fact that it does exempt them, regardless of actual versus perceived intent, looks pretty damn bad.

One thing american society has ever managed to just barely avoid is the caste system, and as horrific as it is, I really can't stand it when politicians attempt to recreate it here regardless of intention - do they not realize the long term consequences, not care, or is this in fact their intention ?

THAT, is a question worth the asking.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, March 14, 2011 8:16 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Kiki and Signe, I already said I don't like this whole thing, and yes, cutting medical services does indeed deserve a yikes. YIKES.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:56 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights.

That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors.


Of course not, you never piss off the praetorian guard, especially when you're busy staging a coup.

It's still a damn bad idea, and the fact that it does exempt them, regardless of actual versus perceived intent, looks pretty damn bad.

One thing american society has ever managed to just barely avoid is the caste system, and as horrific as it is, I really can't stand it when politicians attempt to recreate it here regardless of intention - do they not realize the long term consequences, not care, or is this in fact their intention ?

THAT, is a question worth the asking.

-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.




It's probably only a coincidence that those are the exact public-sector unions that supported Walker's campaign...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:54 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


1kiki - you not liking my facts, or not agreeing with the conclusions OF those facts, doesn't dismiss them. As much as you may want to ignore and belittle the facts, they simply don't go away because you want them to.

When you can rationally and maturely discuss the issue, w/ out resorting to mindless name calling and insults, by all means, check back.

I earn no $$ from tax payer funds. My income is fully from the private sector. Thanks for asking.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:12 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by 1kiki:
YOUR lack of work IS relevant to the discussion, since you judge other people by theirs. So, what is it you don't for your money, Rap? And, do you think you are a leech on the system like you claim other people are?

Lack of work? You know nothing of me, and therefore are incapable of making any relevant points on this matter.
Judging people by their work is your business, not mine.

Quote:


"Please put your things in order because you will be killed, ..."

Was this from a 'union thug', or anyone writing on behest of a union? Show me where it says that. Show me. Now.

Likely, it was. The talk is consistent w/ the signs and shouts towards the GOP from the goons and thugs at the capitol building. The matter is under investigation and a suspect has been identified, as I understand. Hopefully, we'll find answers to the serious questions you do ask.

Quote:


"I already showed the timeline, addressed and clearly showed that it was indeed Freddie and Freddie that caused the meltdown.

Riiiiiight.

Discuss the video I posted, if you'd like.

Quote:




"Why would I feel a target on my back ? Are you threatening to shoot me ?"

You poor retarded illiterate delusional fool. Did I not make it abundantly clear that your problem will not come from the people here but from those in your real life? (Assuming you have one, of couse.)



Ha ha... Good to see you back tracked from that one in a hurry.

Quote:


"Automakers' Jobs Bank Program Pays Laid-Off Workers to Do Nothing" and THEN it says "Most of the workers in the program accepted buyouts to leave it, and new work was found for the rest."

On the basis of an agreement that BOTH labor AND management benefited from, and which no longer exists, you claim that 'unions aren't working people'. All unions have zero working people, never had, do not now, and never will.

Your facts are non-existent, as is your logic BTW.



This would be a case of you acknowledging the facts, but then ignoring them. My facts are clearly existent. All you can do is respond w/ a nonsensical " is not! "

Quote:


Because people want to recall the governor and legislature, it's mob rule? Really? Is that what you think of democracy? Signy is right. At least now we know where you stand.



'Some' people want to recall the gov and legislators for doing their job. Yes, that's mob rule. Hopefully, there are more thinking citizens of Wisconsin than selfish, greedy, thugs from the gimmie-gimmie union supporters.


As the wise man said... It's in your hands.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:43 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Judging people by their work is your business, not mine.
You started it, doofus.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:

Judging people by their work is your business, not mine.
You started it, doofus.



No, you intentionally distorted my position , as is so often the case with Lefites, to advance your warped agenda.

Speak out on muslim terrorists ? YOU HATE ALL MUSLIMS !



Around the 1:50 mark is where Maher gets to the crux of the matter, on which I fully agree.


( Sorry to segue over to another topic to make my point, but it's a common theme I see among some here, who want to hyper exaggerate / take wildly out of context something said, for the sake of demonizing an individual for disagreeing with their position. )

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:51 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Sig, about the health care thing...NO, it’s not what “the people” want, that’s the whole thing. They don’t want the collective bargaining hindered, the union broken up, utilities sold off to the Koch brothers, OR the health care thing. That’s what they’ve been protesting, which is, again, why the cries here of “they voted for it” are bullshit. IF they’d known what Walker was up to during the election, he’d have been shot down by a big margin...and it’s why hopefully the recall effort will be effective, or they’ll vote him out as fast as they can.

And yes, I’d bet the death threats come from those crazies out there that both sides have, you know, people like Raptor and Wulf and Kane, who are quite content to threaten all kinds of idiocy via e-mail, etc., but have nothing to do with the rest of the working people or the union people or anyone with half a brain. These kinds pop up over everything even slightly controversial, and get their pissoffedness out by threatening others. We see it enough here that we should be able to recognize it, but THEY only notice it when it comes from the left.

Mike, “Yes” to how quick our righties are to decry a single death threat from a lefty crazy, yet were quite content to ignore or rationalize the MANY death threats to Democratic legislators over health care. Who exactly does that surprise?

Frem, by now you should know: "is this in fact their intention?” Of COURSE it is, it’s all of a piece with building up the wealth of the rich and taking it from the middle and lower classes. We’ve got pretty close to a “caste” system as it is, the gap is so huge. It took me a long time to accept that what the Republicans want is to make the situation in this country WORSE, in hopes it will let them grab power in 2012, but I’ve finally accepted it. There’s just too much evidence.

THIS is right in line with it. Bust the unions, what’s left to finance elections is corporations, who donate almost exclusively to Republicans to win. Fight ANYTHING that might improve the economy. Focus on social issues and make them as decisive as possible, so those who elected them don’t notice that they’re not doing a single THING about jobs, the one thing they campaigned on. Grab as much power as humanly possible right now, while they have Republican governors and state legislatures, and hope as little as possible of it is undone later.

We were looking the wrong way. While we were all paying attention to the national midterms, I think the Republicans were, in their usual savvy way, focusing on STATES, getting governors and legislators into power, and damn, they did an exceptional job! Luckily it seems they’re overreaching, and they seem to stumble badly when it comes to actual GOVERNING, good as they are at getting elected, so hopefully they won’t do too much serious harm before the worm turns. Because it IS turning...people are remembering what the GOP brought us for the last few years, people are waking up to what these governors they elected out of fear are ACTUALLY pushing through, and more and more are realizing they got duped. Hopefully, time will mitigate some of the worst.

Raptor, thank you:
Quote:

you not liking my facts, or not agreeing with the conclusions OF those facts, doesn't dismiss them. As much as you may want to ignore and belittle the facts, they simply don't go away because you want them to.

When you can rationally and maturely discuss the issue, w/ out resorting to mindless name calling and insults, by all means, check back.

You absolutely nailed yourself perfectly. Now, do what you told Kiki to do before you start hollering at her to do it. Or not. But don’t expect anyone to take you seriously unless you do, because you just described word for word how YOU behave.

Obviously you have no idea whether that death threat came from a union “thug” or anyone else...or even someone wanting to make it LOOK like it came from them. You’re quite happy to jump to the conclusion that matches what you want to believe...until you know the facts, your opinion is totally irrelevant.

And oh, man, do you lie badly. Saying she “backtracked” from how YOU misrepresented her initial statement is totally pathetic, totally predictable, and completely ridiculous. Given we’ve seen it so many times from you before, no surprise. But for any who don’t want to go back and read, I’ll show your trick yet again. A direct quote:” I just hope you have brayed your contempt for working people far and wide, in the real world”, which you then turned into her threatening you personally, with “Why would I feel a target on my back ? Are you threatening to shoot me ?” Stupid trick; even stupider to try and twist it to suit your needs. “No, you intentionally distorted her position, as is so often the case with you, to advance your warped agenda. Again, right on, thank you.

Oh, gawd, it’s hysterical:
Quote:

want to hyper exaggerate / take wildly out of context something said, for the sake of demonizing an individual for disagreeing with their position.
immediately after posting “YOU HATE ALL MUSLIMS !” You are too funny for words sometimes.

Other times, you're just transparent and disgustingly abhorrent. Put your Muslim shit in the thread where it belongs, and stop trying to avoid the issues. Or not. Or run away.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:20 AM

LILI

Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
the cries here of “they voted for it” are bullshit. IF they’d known what Walker was up to during the election, he’d have been shot down by a big margin...


Too right! Not that I voted for him, anyway.
Can't lay all the blame on the governor, though. Those 18 bastards in the state senate who voted for this need their own comeuppance. Didn't vote for them, either. If I find something I can do to get them out, I'll do it.


Facts are stubborn things.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki - you're off your meds.

And for the 2 of you, they DID vote for Walker, and he's doing EXACTLY what he said , and that's to clean up the mess made by the over greedy , gimmie gimmie entitlement zombies.

Walker for President !

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:04 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Gawd Raptor, you are so delusional.

I'm not off my meds, but you need to START some, most obviously.

Of course they voted for Walker. They were manipulated to, and they DID believe he was going to work toward "jobs jobs jobs", not that he was going to DESTROY jobs!
Quote:

Walker also promised to help the state create 250,000 new jobs
That jives with him threatening layoffs? And he hasn't done one thing that I know of to CREATE any new jobs.
Quote:

"Tonight, I want to tell every worker, every family and every business, big or small in this state, that you have an ally in the governor's office," he said.
Yeah, right.
Quote:

Barrett portrayed Walker as someone willing to say anything to get elected and said his proposed tax cuts would decimate public education.
Well, at least his OPPONENT saw reality.

Sure, he said he'd cut taxes. He never let 'em know he was going to cut taxes to CORPORATIONS ONLY, then use almost exactly that amount to excuse his latest gambit.

They were duped.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:12 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


The tax cuts have ZERO to do w/ the decimation of public education. It's the entitlements and benefits, strong armed by the public sector unions.

Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens.

How fraking stupid are you on the Left ?


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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:39 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The tax cuts have ZERO to do w/ the decimation of public education. It's the entitlements and benefits, strong armed by the public sector unions.

Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens.

How fraking stupid are you on the Left ?





Not one word of that is true.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:03 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
The tax cuts have ZERO to do w/ the decimation of public education. It's the entitlements and benefits, strong armed by the public sector unions.

Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens.

How fraking stupid are you on the Left ?





Not one word of that is true.




Every single word of that is true.

What mystifies me is how your world view is completely inverted on such matters. This isn't an issue of 'tomato v. tomatto ', but a total denial on your part of reality.

Stunning, to say the least.

Like Wash asked Jayne... how DID your brain learn human speech ?


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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:13 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


Quote:

Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens.


While I don't agree with everything Rap is saying, he's got a point. If you raise Corporate taxes they will move their business to another State and now you've lost that revenue. I dunno about lowering their taxes, but this can be legitimate motivation for not raising them. I don't like it but I don't see a better option.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:53 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


Its funny to watch Raptor and Niki argue.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:32 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

While I don't agree with everything Rap is saying, he's got a point. If you raise Corporate taxes they will move their business to another State and now you've lost that revenue. I dunno about lowering their taxes, but this can be legitimate motivation for not raising them. I don't like it but I don't see a better option.
Replace them with cooperatives. Raise tariffs on cheap-labor imports. Create international unions. Start government-funded loans for replacements. Can think of several things to do. It doesn't take a mental giant.

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Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:37 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

No, you intentionally distorted my position


"union thugs are unreasonable, irrational moochers who'll resort to violence to get their way." (Unlike the "open carry" people?)

"Unions aren't 'working people'"

"less qualified folks...give... us ... Broken schools, entitled , whining 'workers' who demand to be paid more and more for doing less and less"

"I don't live off the public dole and then whine about not making enough"

---------
Seems like you climbed out on a limb all by yourself by assuming that public sectors workers are lazy and don't do anything to earn their pay. So I quite naturally wondered what YOU do for a living. Seems a fair question in response to your baseless characterizations.


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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:41 AM

HERO


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:
Replace them with cooperatives. Raise tariffs on cheap-labor imports. Create international unions. Start government-funded loans for replacements. Can think of several things to do. It doesn't take a mental giant.


That all worked so well for Europe...you are correct, it does not take a mental giant to think of alternatives, it does, however, take common sense to know they have not worked anywhere they've been tried.

Co-ops, might as well paint your ass red and name your baby Stalin. I note for the record that co-ops are what has made California the economic powerhouse it is today.

Tariffs, sure lets start a global trade war that will only result in raising consumer prices. And the only work when the businesses move out of the country...what if they move to Tennessee or the Carolinas? Michigan can't put a tariff on Hondas built in Tennessee.

Govt loans, sure subsidize the hell out of businesses that contribute to the party in power. That never goes wrong.

How about you adopt tax and social policies that encourage business and investments in your state? The South is becoming the economic and manufacturing center of this country because of these policies. In other words you look at States that are succeeding and say 'what are they doing that we are not'? If that answer to that question is tax policy...then you can apply your small brain (which is what you said you were working with) to figuring out what that means.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I would rather not ignore your contributions." Niki2, 2010.

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Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SignyM:

Seems like you climbed out on a limb all by yourself by assuming that public sectors workers are lazy and don't do anything to earn their pay. So I quite naturally wondered what YOU do for a living. Seems a fair question in response to your baseless characterizations.




Some literally don't do anything to " earn " their pay, so my characterizations were anything but baseless. Pay attention, you might learn something.

Or not.


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