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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Wisconsin Senate Limits Bargaining by Public Workers - FINALLY !
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:27 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:28 AM
Monday, March 14, 2011 4:36 AM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Monday, March 14, 2011 4:45 AM
Monday, March 14, 2011 6:32 AM
FREMDFIRMA
Monday, March 14, 2011 7:22 AM
THEHAPPYTRADER
Quote:I've been neutral on this subject (As I will try to be on all subjects, henceforth.) because I'm no longer interested in getting into the ususal "You're a Fascist! No. You're a Commie!" rut. I'd like to discuss the issues without it becoming a partisan slug-fest. I don't hold out much hope for this plan, but will give it a try.
Monday, March 14, 2011 7:51 AM
Monday, March 14, 2011 9:22 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: And yet Rap, I have yet to see you refute a single fact that SignyM has posted with an actual fact of your own. Nope, you just keep spouting ignorant propaganda. Like - and may I remind you - WMDs existed! The economy was ON FIRE! THEY don't pay taxes! Fannie and Freddie CAUSED the meltdown! And a few other choice idiocies.
Monday, March 14, 2011 9:28 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:Now, normally the idea of him talking himself off the edge of sanity gives me a perverse sort of delight in contemplating it
Quote: Now, normally the idea of him talking himself off the edge of sanity gives me a perverse sort of delight in contemplating it
Quote:I think they (and a lot of Republicans) are pushing too hard for too extreme an agenda, and may well generate a backlash in 2012 if they keep it up
Monday, March 14, 2011 9:55 AM
Monday, March 14, 2011 10:09 AM
WULFENSTAR
http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg
Monday, March 14, 2011 11:00 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Oh, with 'facts' like this Rap? "If Walker needs the Nat Guard, it'll be because the union thugs are unreasonable, irrational moochers who'll resort to violence to get their way. The adults have finally had enough, and gone forward on doing their job. Unlike the cowards who fled across state lines."
Quote: Or this? "Unions aren't "working people"."
Quote: Or this? "Then let them live with mob rule, and ignore the rule of law."
Quote: And how come you never answered a single question about what YOU produce? What do YOU do for work, Rap?
Quote: Why did you not address all the FACTS on this entire posts: "Countrywide, Citibank, BoA etc which sold fraudulent loans Goldman Sachs, UBS (and others) which sold fraudulent collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) Insurances like AIG which sold naked Credit Default Swaps (CDSs) Insiders who KNEW this was going to come down like a house of cards and used the opportunity to create a blizzard of fake paper so they could engage in insider trading, line their pockets and run"" Why do you seem to be focused on Fannie and Freddie when you have YET to show that they CAUSED the meltdown. A simple timeline shows what happened first - and it wasn't Fannie or Freddie. Do you even KNOW what happened first? C'mon - take off your poopy diapers and put on your big boy pants and tell us - what melted down FIRST and cascaded the whole house of cards? And give us some FACTS - how is it that the pensions lost value?
Quote: Rap - you are clearly delusional. So really, I don't expect anything even remotely resembling reality out of you. I just hope you have brayed your contempt for working people far and wide, in the real world, where people know who you are, and where you get to feel the target on your back.
Monday, March 14, 2011 11:02 AM
GEEZER
Keep the Shiny side up
Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: I'll be damn glad of that, Geeze - be nice to have someone rational to argue with for a change, since it seems to ever be the most effective way of refining concepts into solutions. -F
Monday, March 14, 2011 11:03 AM
Monday, March 14, 2011 12:33 PM
Quote:If the employer is greedy or cheap, the workers may organize into a union. The union can then demand higher and higher pay and benefits until the employer goes out of business and is thus taught an important lesson about being nice, while all his now-unemployed workers can enjoy a hearty laugh at his discomfort.
Quote: Recall is fine if proper procedures are followed. But death threats and the destruction of property have to be prosecuted
Quote: At least 10 House Democrats who voted Sunday for health care overhaul have received violent threats to their lives or property. Several members have faced death threats and harassing phone calls while others have experienced vandalism at district offices or their private homes. In one case, a gas line was cut outside the Virginia home of Rep. Tom Perriello's brother after a conservative activist posted the address online, mistakenly thinking it was the congressman's house. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating.
Quote: Right-wing death threats rise: Republicans should condemn Rush Limbaugh Meanwhile, death threats are rising against Democratic public officials. Abusive calls and threats are made against the homes of prominent Democrats. One House Republican leader referred to a Democratic member and said he can't go home; he's a "dead man.”
Quote:I didn't see a single "anarchist" in the throngs of people, no one stirring up trouble just for the sake of it, no one instigating fights with the pro-Walker people or lighting cars on fire or whatever it is that Andrew Breitbart thinks anarchists do. I saw moms and dads and their kids, teachers and plumbers, security guards and cops and firefighters in kilts. Lots of college students. Plenty more retirees. No anarchists. The night wasn't entirely without incident. Around 2 a.m., police officers in the capital ordered most of the protesters' signs to be removed and either trashed or stored in a massive pile for later use. That demand peeved a few people, to be sure, but for the most part everyone did as they were told. To their credit, the cops were firm but polite, taking questions, receptive to protesters' concerns.
Quote:In a blog post today, right-wing radio host and ex-Tea Party Express spokesman Mark Williams said he plans to pose as an organizer for the Service Employees International Union and stir up trouble at a Sacramento labor union event. He's also urging his readers and other anti-labor folks to do the same in states around the country. "If I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there," Williams wrote. "With any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme." Here's Williams' plan in full, per his post:Quote:Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures...signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us) (6) we will echo those slogans in angry sounding tones to the cameras and the reporters. (7) if I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there…with any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme.Williams goes on to say that his followers trying the same stunt should avoid confrontation because labor protesters "WILL have a mob mentality and ARE dangerous." He says lots of tea party groups have been barraging him with information about similar stunts and "vowing to participate and come up with their own creative ruses!"
Quote:Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures...signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us) (6) we will echo those slogans in angry sounding tones to the cameras and the reporters. (7) if I do get the ‘in’ I am going to do my darnedest to get podium access and take the mic to do that rant from there…with any luck and if I can manage the moments to build up to it, I can probably get a cheer out of the crowd for something extreme.
Monday, March 14, 2011 12:35 PM
Quote:Wisconsin Republican Governor Scott Walker's budget repair bill, which would strip away collective bargaining rights for public-sector unions, is a drastic, some would say draconian, piece of legislation. But it is not without precedent. As Milwaukee County executive, Walker fought to fire the county's unionized prison guards and replace them with private contractors. The results were disastrous. Walker's initial attempt to sweep out unionized prison guards was blocked by the Milwaukee County board. But in March 2010, he unilaterally rammed through the measure under the guise of a budget crisis, a power grab that angered officials in Milwaukee County. To replace the union workers Walker hired Wackenhut, a controversy-riddled British contractor. (It was employees of a Wackenhut subsidiary at the heart of the Kabul embassy scandal, where, as Mother Jones first reported, contractors were revealed to be a crew of drunken, debaucherous hooligans that hazed other contractors and partied like out-of-control frat brothers. Think vodka butt shots.) In another controversy, Wackenhut security guards were videotaped sleeping on the job at a nuclear power plant in Pennsylvania, revelations that shook the industry and resulted in a heap of criticism for the company. Walker's hiring of Wackenhut quickly became a nightmare. After ramming through the proposal, an arbiter said Walker overreached, and repealed the firing of the unionized prison guards. That arbiter ordered Milwaukee County to rehire the union workers and repay them for the wages they lost, costing the county upwards of $500,000.
Quote: The call reportedly arrived from Cairo. Pizza for the protesters, the voice said. It was Saturday, February 20th, and by then Ian's Pizza on State Street in Madison, Wisconsin, was overwhelmed. One employee had been assigned the sole task of answering the phone and taking down orders. And in they came, from all 50 states and the District of Columbia, from Morocco, Haiti, Turkey, Belgium, Uganda, China, New Zealand, and even a research station in Antarctica. More than 50 countries around the globe. Ian's couldn't make pizza fast enough, and the generosity of distant strangers with credit cards was paying for it all.
Quote:A new survey from Public Policy Polling released on Monday found that Walker's support has eroded among Wisconsin voters. In a hypothetical rematch with his 2010 Democratic opponent, Milwaukee mayor Tom Barrett, 52 percent of those voters say they'd opt for Barrett, while 45 percent picked Walker. That's a flip of the actual 2010 result, which saw Walker beat Barrett, 52 to 45 percent. It's actually Republicans, more so than Democrats or independents, whose shifting away from Walker would allow Barrett to win a rematch if there was one today. Only 3% of the Republicans we surveyed said they voted for Barrett last fall but now 10% say they would if they could do it over again.
Monday, March 14, 2011 1:05 PM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money.
Monday, March 14, 2011 1:07 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: I'll be damn glad of that, Geeze - be nice to have someone rational to argue with for a change, since it seems to ever be the most effective way of refining concepts into solutions. -F I'm trying. I just got too het up doing the "Us vs.Them" thing. BTW I mentioned it above and thought you'd pick it up: The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights. That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors. "Keep the Shiny side up"
Monday, March 14, 2011 2:20 PM
Quote:Much more, however, is at issue. On February 24, economist and New York Times columnist Paul Krugman headlined, "Shock Doctrine, USA," saying: "What's happening in Wisconsin is....a power grab - an attempt to exploit the fiscal crisis to destroy the last major counterweight to the political power of corporations and the wealthy." It involves much more than union busting, bad as that is. Hidden in the bill's 144 pages are "extraordinary things," including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally. Another one states: "16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss.196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49(3)(b)." Call it the Koch brothers provision, multi-billionaire owners of Koch Industries, an industrial giant heavily invested in energy and power-related enterprises. According to Wisconsin campaign finance filings, Koch Industries PAC contributed $43,000 to Walker's gubernatorial campaign, second only to the $43,125 given by state housing and realtor groups. Moreover, the Koch PAC helped Walker and other Republicans by contributing $1 million to the Republican Governors Association (RGA), that, in turn, spent $65,000 to support Walker and $3.4 million on television attack ads and mailings against his opponent, Milwaukee Democrat Mayor Tom Barrett. It made the difference between victory and defeat. Republican out-spent Democrats, sweeping many of their candidates to victory last November.
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:14 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:27 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:33 PM
SIGNYM
I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.
Quote:including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally.
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:35 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:40 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, March 14, 2011 3:58 PM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Let me get this straight.... Quote:including a provision letting Walker appoint a health czar to make draconian healthcare cuts to Wisconsin's poor and low-income households unilaterally. The peeps who cried long and loud about Obamacare "death panels" are OK with Gov Walker death panels? No wonder the top of my head wants to blow off when I read these yutzes. Rappy, Wulf, do you do anything with your brains other than keeping your hair from imploding?
Monday, March 14, 2011 4:15 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 5:21 PM
Quote:If someone is going to write a death threat, can't they keep family memeber killing out of it, yikes.
Monday, March 14, 2011 5:34 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 5:35 PM
Monday, March 14, 2011 5:36 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: About nothing in particular, I'm making bets with myself about the probability that Rap will come back and actually answer my post with facts.
Monday, March 14, 2011 8:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights. That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors.
Monday, March 14, 2011 8:16 PM
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:56 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Fremdfirma: Quote:Originally posted by Geezer: The Wisconsin law limiting collective bargaining rights for municipal employees specifically exempts public safety employees. They still have full bargaining rights. That'd be firemen and EMTs, but also all law enforcement. Looks like the legislature didn't want to hack off their protectors. Of course not, you never piss off the praetorian guard, especially when you're busy staging a coup. It's still a damn bad idea, and the fact that it does exempt them, regardless of actual versus perceived intent, looks pretty damn bad. One thing american society has ever managed to just barely avoid is the caste system, and as horrific as it is, I really can't stand it when politicians attempt to recreate it here regardless of intention - do they not realize the long term consequences, not care, or is this in fact their intention ? THAT, is a question worth the asking. -Frem I do not serve the Blind God.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 5:54 AM
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:12 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: YOUR lack of work IS relevant to the discussion, since you judge other people by theirs. So, what is it you don't for your money, Rap? And, do you think you are a leech on the system like you claim other people are?
Quote: "Please put your things in order because you will be killed, ..." Was this from a 'union thug', or anyone writing on behest of a union? Show me where it says that. Show me. Now.
Quote: "I already showed the timeline, addressed and clearly showed that it was indeed Freddie and Freddie that caused the meltdown. Riiiiiight.
Quote: "Why would I feel a target on my back ? Are you threatening to shoot me ?" You poor retarded illiterate delusional fool. Did I not make it abundantly clear that your problem will not come from the people here but from those in your real life? (Assuming you have one, of couse.)
Quote: "Automakers' Jobs Bank Program Pays Laid-Off Workers to Do Nothing" and THEN it says "Most of the workers in the program accepted buyouts to leave it, and new work was found for the rest." On the basis of an agreement that BOTH labor AND management benefited from, and which no longer exists, you claim that 'unions aren't working people'. All unions have zero working people, never had, do not now, and never will. Your facts are non-existent, as is your logic BTW.
Quote: Because people want to recall the governor and legislature, it's mob rule? Really? Is that what you think of democracy? Signy is right. At least now we know where you stand.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:43 AM
Quote:Judging people by their work is your business, not mine.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:02 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Quote:Judging people by their work is your business, not mine. You started it, doofus.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:51 AM
Quote:you not liking my facts, or not agreeing with the conclusions OF those facts, doesn't dismiss them. As much as you may want to ignore and belittle the facts, they simply don't go away because you want them to. When you can rationally and maturely discuss the issue, w/ out resorting to mindless name calling and insults, by all means, check back.
Quote: want to hyper exaggerate / take wildly out of context something said, for the sake of demonizing an individual for disagreeing with their position.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:20 AM
LILI
Doing it backwards. Walking up the downslide.
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: the cries here of “they voted for it” are bullshit. IF they’d known what Walker was up to during the election, he’d have been shot down by a big margin...
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:43 PM
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:04 PM
Quote:Walker also promised to help the state create 250,000 new jobs
Quote:"Tonight, I want to tell every worker, every family and every business, big or small in this state, that you have an ally in the governor's office," he said.
Quote:Barrett portrayed Walker as someone willing to say anything to get elected and said his proposed tax cuts would decimate public education.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:12 PM
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:39 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: The tax cuts have ZERO to do w/ the decimation of public education. It's the entitlements and benefits, strong armed by the public sector unions. Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens. How fraking stupid are you on the Left ?
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:03 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: The tax cuts have ZERO to do w/ the decimation of public education. It's the entitlements and benefits, strong armed by the public sector unions. Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens. How fraking stupid are you on the Left ? Not one word of that is true.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:13 PM
Quote:Lower tax rates for Corporations attracts more companies, lowers cost to the customer, and increases employment, as well as taxes collected by more employed citizens.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:53 PM
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 6:32 PM
Quote:While I don't agree with everything Rap is saying, he's got a point. If you raise Corporate taxes they will move their business to another State and now you've lost that revenue. I dunno about lowering their taxes, but this can be legitimate motivation for not raising them. I don't like it but I don't see a better option.
Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:37 PM
Quote:No, you intentionally distorted my position
Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:41 AM
HERO
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Replace them with cooperatives. Raise tariffs on cheap-labor imports. Create international unions. Start government-funded loans for replacements. Can think of several things to do. It doesn't take a mental giant.
Wednesday, March 16, 2011 4:10 AM
Quote:Originally posted by SignyM: Seems like you climbed out on a limb all by yourself by assuming that public sectors workers are lazy and don't do anything to earn their pay. So I quite naturally wondered what YOU do for a living. Seems a fair question in response to your baseless characterizations.
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