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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Stop feeding your kids Starbucks and fifteen different kinds of candy and surprise.. ADHD seems to VANISH.

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
deal with people like Story and Nicki, and may end up with custody of the kid.

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Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Anyhow, funny thing was, these ADHD kids didn't seem to have those problems in music class. Perhaps it was the challenge or maybe music is just shiny like that.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
I have a cousin who is a child savant. He was taking apart cars, motorcycles, VCRs and tvs fixing them, and putting them back together by the time he was five. He's also a math genius who is not challenged at all in school. He's in the third grade.

They had him on ADHD medication because he was bored out of his mind and wouldn't focus or do his school work. The medication made him aggressive, which was not his normal personality, so now they diagnosed him with Oppositional Defiant Disorder, put him on some new medication in addition to the ADHD medication.

My aunt is singing the praises of the medication because he's "such an angel now, always does what he's told."

...They're RUINING him. ._.

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Originally posted by Storymark:

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Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Stop feeding your kids Starbucks and fifteen different kinds of candy and surprise.. ADHD seems to VANISH.

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That's pretty ignorant, and incorrect.

ADHD is vastly over-diagnosed, yes. But in those properly diagnosed, there is a quantifiable difference in brain chemistry.

As a matter of fact, when a real ADHD kid drinks coffee, it calms them because their metabolism reacts to the caffeine differently.

It's hilarious to see you say others "don't understand" when you obviously don't know what you're talking about. But you've never been one to let facts interfere with your beliefs.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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It's not like ADHD is a new diagnosis. Have you ever read "The Ransom of Red Chief"? It was written in 1910 and contains a perfect description of a boy with ADHD

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay, let me rephrase that. It's not like ADHD is a new PHENOMENON, or a new OBSERVATION. Because it has been happening, and people have been observing it, for a long time. And making it the POINT of a story or cartoon.

Better?

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SignyM:

So let's get to the part about "mind control".

Here's another mind-bending thought: Minds SHOULD be controlled. And normally, they are. There are internal mechanisms that allow us to keep a thought in our head for more than 30 seconds. That allow us to tell reality from fantasy. That direct our attention to the important things, and screen out repetitive stimulus. That keep the brain from firing all together all at once. That put us to sleep at night and wake us up in the morning. That tell our limbs to move smoothly to a target and then stop. That allow us to internally mimic someone else's expressions and motions and feel what they are feeling. Or tells us that it's OK to get out of bed and do something.

But just as there are a couple of thousand individual brain functions, there are just as many DYSfunctions. So, in order of the above list, the dysfunctions are: ADHD, schizophrenia, autism, epilepsy, sleep disorder, dystonia and Parkinson's disease, sociopathy, and depression.

Now, generally, most people fall somewhere in the range of "average". Some people are a little bit distractable, others a little sensitive to stimulus. But SOME people's internal mechanisms are just off-the-charts whacked, to the point where it makes THEM unhappy or dangerous to themselves or others.

So yanno what? "Mind control" is a good thing.

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I don't know him at all, so I can't possibly weigh in on whether medication is warranted. But I have a couple of questions: Is HE happier now than before? Is he able to pay attention to things other than motors? Is he still able to take things apart and put them back together? Does he sleep better? In other words, without putting YOUR personal reaction into the situation, is HE feeling better than before? Because you failed to address that part.

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Originally posted by SignyM:
Would you take insulin away from a diabetic? Anti-convulsants away from a someone with seizures? Oxygen away from someone with fibrosis? Antibiotics away from pneumonia? Nature isn't perfect. There are a lot of things that go wrong: birth defects, infection, dementia, schizophrenia, autism. Even ADHD.

It's not like ADHD is a new diagnosis. Have you ever read "The Ransom of Red Chief"? It was written in 1910 and contains a perfect description of a boy with ADHD

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He [the boy, who names himself Red Chief] made a during-dinner speech something like this:
"I like this fine. I never camped out before; but I had a pet 'possum once, and I was nine last birthday. I hate to go to school. Rats ate up sixteen of Jimmy Talbot's aunt's speckled hen's eggs. Are there any real Indians in these woods? I want some more gravy. Does the trees moving make the wind blow? We had five puppies. What makes your nose so red, Hank? My father has lots of money. Are the stars hot? I whipped Ed Walker twice, Saturday. I don't like girls. You dassent catch toads unless with a string. Do oxen make any noise? Why are oranges round? Have you got beds to sleep on in this cave? Amos Murray has got Six toes. A parrot can talk, but a monkey or a fish can't. How many does it take to make twelve?"

Every few minutes he would remember that he was a pesky redskin, and pick up his stick rifle and tiptoe to the mouth of the cave to rubber for the scouts of the hated paleface. Now and then he would let out a war-whoop that made Old Hank the Trapper shiver... He kept us awake for three hours, jumping up and reaching for his rifle and screeching: "Hist! pard," in mine and Bill's ears, as the fancied crackle of a twig or the rustle of a leaf revealed to his young imagination the stealthy approach of the outlaw band... Red Chief was sitting on Bill's chest, with one hand twined in Bill's hair. In the other he had the sharp case-knife we used for slicing, bacon; and he was industriously and realistically trying to take Bill's scalp, according to the sentence that had been pronounced upon him the evening before.

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www.online-literature.com/donne/1041/

Ever read Dennis the Menace? ADHD.

So, let's get past the point that nature is perfect, that all medications are bad, and that any parent who ever medicates their child is a monster, mkay? From a human-interest standpoint.... the one where we like to be healthy and happy and have some control over our future... nature fucks us up. Often. Anyone who claims otherwise just isn't looking.

So let's get to the part about "mind control".

Here's another mind-bending thought: Minds SHOULD be controlled. And normally, they are. There are internal mechanisms that allow us to keep a thought in our head for more than 30 seconds. That allow us to tell reality from fantasy. That direct our attention to the important things, and screen out repetitive stimulus. That keep the brain from firing all together all at once. That put us to sleep at night and wake us up in the morning. That tell our limbs to move smoothly to a target and then stop. That allow us to internally mimic someone else's expressions and motions and feel what they are feeling. Or tells us that it's OK to get out of bed and do something.

But just as there are a couple of thousand individual brain functions, there are just as many DYSfunctions. So, in order of the above list, the dysfunctions are: ADHD, schizophrenia, autism, epilepsy, sleep disorder, dystonia and Parkinson's disease, sociopathy, and depression.

Now, generally, most people fall somewhere in the range of "average". Some people are a little bit distractable, others a little sensitive to stimulus. But SOME people's internal mechanisms are just off-the-charts whacked, to the point where it makes THEM unhappy or dangerous to themselves or others.

So yanno what? "Mind control" is a good thing.

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Getting back to your nephew, Byte.

I don't know him at all, so I can't possibly weigh in on whether medication is warranted. But I have a couple of questions: Is HE happier now than before? Is he able to pay attention to things other than motors? Is he still able to take things apart and put them back together? Does he sleep better? In other words, without putting YOUR personal reaction into the situation, is HE feeling better than before? Because you failed to address that part.

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Good post, signy. Thanks for bringing all this up.

I'd have to say Byte, that you should not under any circumstances encourage this boy to not take his medication. Although you do not approve, you also may not have all the facts

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the decision is not yours, nor his to make

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This is really scary. No wonder you're on the social engineering side. Not willing to accept the human race as it is, in its unmodified "flawed" form?

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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Did you happen to watch this Firefly show? It's pretty cool I here.

I'm sorry, I'm a fan of the world. I like it as it is, unmodified, uncontrolled, chaotic, not hydrogenated methylated chloro-fluoro-ethoxylated. Just good old planet earth, with people. Not a clone army of zombies. Ordinary, crazy, dangeous, funny, lovable people.

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The human mind. We're not talking about a neurodegenerative condition here, a malformed brain that will cause disability and death, we're talking about the human mind.

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It's not his decision to make alone, although he could have a voice in it. A small child cannot have the same capacity to understand what is best for him.

If a 5 year old decided that

- he wasn't going to ever eat anything other than icecream ever again
- he was not going to bed every night until 1pm

then his parents would intervene. Clearly those things would not be in a child's best interest. Children do not have the information nor the capacity to make fully informed choices about stuff. Parents 'parent' - that is their role and they do it to the best of their ability. To make informed choices on behalf of a child until they are old enough to make them on their own.

Now I'm not sure how old your relative is, if he is very young still then it is pretty much his parents decision. If he is reaching his teens, then his wishes should be given a fair degree of weight, and I guess it's pretty hard to make a teenager do anything.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
>_>

There's actually some indication that a lot of the more crazy seeming stuff Vincent Van Gogh did was actually for the money.

I'm not sure about the dying part unless his brother, who was also the manager of his artistic property, had a say in it.

But wasn't this really DT's point? It's not about quantity or duration of life, it's not even necessarily about quantity of happiness, it's about the depth and lofty heights of the human condition.

There is no triumph without struggle. Endeavoring in that struggle, even if the struggle ends in tragedy, is as noble a thing as I've ever heard of.

But yes, if someone wants to choose to go the path of the lotus eaters, then that's their decision. I think it would be a damn shame if EVERYONE went that way though, just "for happiness!"

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

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It's not his decision to make alone, although he could have a voice in it. A small child cannot have the same capacity to understand what is best for him.

If a 5 year old decided that

- he wasn't going to ever eat anything other than icecream ever again
- he was not going to bed every night until 1pm

then his parents would intervene. Clearly those things would not be in a child's best interest. Children do not have the information nor the capacity to make fully informed choices about stuff. Parents 'parent' - that is their role and they do it to the best of their ability. To make informed choices on behalf of a child until they are old enough to make them on their own.

Now I'm not sure how old your relative is, if he is very young still then it is pretty much his parents decision. If he is reaching his teens, then his wishes should be given a fair degree of weight, and I guess it's pretty hard to make a teenager do anything.

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Rather than get into a debate with you about the difference of lack thereof in ability to make decisions as compared by age, I'll just say that my understanding is that he is old enough that he understands enough, and also is able to make decisions on his own.

As a side note, I'm not sure most five year olds can fully make decisions yet either, but where possible and safe to do so I try to err on the side of letting them make up their own minds about things.

It goes back potentially to Frem's sliding scale idea.

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Van Gogh never made any money. He died a pauper and I think he sold one or none of his work.

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He suffered from anxiety and increasingly frequent bouts of mental illness throughout his life and died, largely unknown, at the age of 37 from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

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Van Gogh spent his early adulthood working for a firm of art dealers and traveled between The Hague, London and Paris, after which he taught in England.

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The extent to which his mental illness affected his painting has been a subject of speculation since his death. Despite a widespread tendency to romanticise his ill health, modern critics see an artist deeply frustrated by the inactivity and incoherence brought about by his bouts of sickness. According to art critic Robert Hughes, Van Gogh's late works show an artist at the height of his ability, completely in control and "longing for concision and grace"

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