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REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Abortion is...
Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:05 PM
THEHAPPYTRADER
Quote:ETA However, as I think about it, I suspect the fertilized egg (maybe that's a stretch) or the embryo occupies a more important EMOTIONAL space for you than an actual human being. It is small, it is helpless, it is kinda' human looking after enough time, and you FEEL protective. Which has nothing to do with respect for human life since a fully adult human doesn't trigger that same response, or concern for sentience since an actual sentient human adult also doesn't trigger the same emotion, or souls or religion.
Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:13 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:34 PM
MAGONSDAUGHTER
Sunday, January 30, 2011 4:49 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:05 PM
Quote:happy, you are right that I am threatened by your beliefs, and the beliefs of those who wish to use legislation to implement control over others based on their religious faith and where there is NO evidence.
Quote:I would have no issue with your beliefs if you said 'well, I would never have an abortion because to me, the embryo contains a soul', which you will never probably say because you are a man (I think). But what you say 'no girlfriend of mine will ever have an abortion' or similar....well, great because you don't have to carry the baby, but that is another issue, you want it illegal for everyone, even those of us who do not share your beliefs, even when you yourself have expressed a deal of uncertainly about when a soul would enter and leave a foetus. You haven't actually addressed any issue in any comprehensible way, other than to state you don't like it. And that isn't enough to argue to have it banned.
Quote:Your call for a blanket ban on all terminations would also bring about the end of most artificial reproductive assisance, as in IVF procedures several day old embryos are routinely destroyed.
Quote:The more I learn about reproduction, the more I learn how tenuous the embryos hold on existence is. a woman's body is just this fleshy factory which is trying to create babies whenever the conditions are right. There are an awful lot of duds that get discarded, probably most within days of conception and without notice. Nobody is sadder, nobody is concerned about souls of these bunches of cells, but somehow when there is choice involved it is murder?
Quote:I am highly suspicuous of the motives of the anti abortion lobbyists, who generally come from conservative religious backgrounds, who have traditionally kept a tight hold over women's reproduction.
Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:38 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 7:42 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Hi MagonsD Well I did come back b/c what I'm doing now is tedious and frustrating and ... HappyT has a primarily emotional response. It isn't necessarily about formal beliefs, facts or ideas. I don't think you will be able to discuss this topic rationally and be able to get a change of heart. Looking at what people discuss here, I've come to the conclusion that people are primarily driven by emotion, and the more deeply held an emotion is, the less likely they are to be objective about it - ever. Not to say some don't have larger areas of objectivity, or don't obtain insight. But it's a long education process.
Quote:Don't know what MD would say but your tepid concern for adults being killed is inconsistent with a general regard for the sacredness of human life.
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:01 PM
CANTTAKESKY
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: 'Tepid' concern... really? Shall I extend this thread by several screen lengths just to prove to you I value every human life? This is ridiculous.
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:03 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:05 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:17 PM
Quote:Lack of consistency between the value you place on one merely potential human life and another older actual life is the biggest indicator to me that you are reacting to a specific emotion - protectiveness - and not to some deeply held general ethic or moral.
Quote:it all comes out as 'save the fetus!' but everyone else is at the mercy of society, because, well, whatcha' gonna do?
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:26 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:33 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:40 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:45 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: That's true - but you clearly didn't see the connection between paying taxes to wage war and paying taxes so women could have abortions if they couldn't afford them, BOTH of which very obviously end in death. Which is why I asked you what your stand was on the Iraq war, the death penalty and gun control. In fact there are many, many circumstances where we spend resources to kill people. So I'm curious - Iraq War - for or against? Death penalty - for or against? Gun control - for or against?
Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:12 PM
Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:05 PM
Monday, January 31, 2011 5:33 AM
Monday, January 31, 2011 6:46 AM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: So you find the other reasons for having guns - which are weapons, not toys - be more important than preventing death, even preventing murder. That is the strength of your morals about life. You probably don't understand what you just posted, but that's OK.
Monday, January 31, 2011 8:47 AM
BYTEMITE
Quote:People with religious beliefs are so stuck on this idea of sacredness of a set of human cells that they lobby governments hard to prevent the issuing of the morning after pill
Quote:Many pro-life groups in the US actively campaigned against the approval of mifepristone,[49][50][51] and continue to actively campaign for its withdrawal.[52] They cite either ethical issues with abortion or safety concerns regarding the drug and the adverse reactions associated with it, including death.[53]
Quote:A small but vocal group of female scientists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Institute on Women and Technology issued a report under the name of "Feminist International Network of Resistance to Reproductive and Genetic Engineering" in the early '90s to express their opposition to mifepristone, because "We felt what was being lost in the political debate was how the drug affects women. In contrast with the groups who are anti-feminist and anti-abortion, the Institute on Women and Technology advocates women's rights to abortion and self determination", said Dr. Janice Raymond of FINRRAGE. Additional feminist critics exist, such as Pauline Connor (LI.B.) of Feminists Against Eugenics in England who stated, "What has been presented as a simple, pill-popping exercise is, in fact, an intensely medicalized and painful procedure which can involve up to four clinic visits and last 12 days."
Monday, January 31, 2011 10:49 AM
Monday, January 31, 2011 11:16 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Quote:an embryo has the capacity to grow into a human, but then both sperm and eggs have that capacity as well, it's just that they haven't wiggled together yet. For right to lifers, there is something special about when they wiggle together, often its because they believe that is when the soul enters. Okay, so I don't believe in souls, not in that way anyway. I see that the only difference between that embryo and the separate components is that they have joined together. Now they may go onto to grow into a human, but as I said earlier an awful lot don't. and when they don't (in early pregnancy) we don't have funerals for them, we don't have graves.
Monday, January 31, 2011 12:40 PM
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Not arrogant, I just understand the logic behind your assumptions better than you do b/c you haven't thought about it much, they are still just assumptions. You claim moral authority to ban abortions b/c you say that human life, or even the mere possibility of a human life, is your primary value. In fact, you seem to think it is THE most important value of all, and something you don't want your money being spent on to violate. But then you kinda don't get that society spends your money to kill adult people in all sorts of ways (and war and the death penalty are only two), and that's maybe a pile of crap to complain about but certainly not one you would hope would become illegal in some perfect society, or one you would refuse to have your money spent on today. You defended guns partly on the basis that they are fun, so fun is more important than preventing death. And now you are defending guns on the basis that people should have freedom, so apparently to you, freedom is more important than preventing death. And every time you choose something other than preventing intentional death you affirm that intentional death is not such a big deal to you. So what I get is that there are MANY things more important to you than preventing intentional death including letting people have their freedom, even freedom to buy a weapon designed for nothing more than to kill people. And society spending your money on intentional death is not something you seriously object to. But all of that desire for individual freedom, including the freedom to kill, and the freedom from paying for killing - stops at abortion. Because abortion in your mind is somehow a different kind of death. So you are inconsistent in your valuation. But that inconsistency undercuts your claim to moral authority for your position. That's what I'm seeing.
Monday, January 31, 2011 1:08 PM
Monday, January 31, 2011 4:19 PM
Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:43 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:48 AM
MALACHITE
Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:30 AM
HARDWARE
Quote:Originally posted by 1kiki: Don't know what MD would say but your tepid concern for adults being killed is inconsistent with a general regard for the sacredness of human life.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 2:57 AM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: Why don't you go play Dr. Phil somewhere else. It's obvious you care more about inferring or imagining an individual's inconsistencies than taking the time to understand a position not your own.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:02 AM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: I've already said I am against killing of any kind, including wars, murders, executions and abortions. I'm also against folks acting like douches, but I'm don't believe in taking away your free speech.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:32 AM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:56 AM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 8:08 AM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 11:33 AM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 11:41 AM
WULFENSTAR
http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg
Thursday, February 3, 2011 12:02 PM
Quote: When you are saying that you oppose late term abortions
Quote: None of you have said whether you think its ok to use abortion as a form of birth control.
Quote: And why? Cus its too damn hard. Its tough to raise a child.
Quote: Is it ok to frak around all the time then oops... got her preggers...I’m outta here...
Quote:And why? Cus its too damn hard. Its tough to raise a child.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 12:26 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 12:49 PM
Quote:If it truly IS a womans right to choose, then you are saying its only HER right to create a family. So why SHOULD the man stick around?
Quote:BUT, if its not JUST her right, then that means the MAN has a say.
Quote:Bad way to start a family, being on the shit-end of the stick
Thursday, February 3, 2011 12:53 PM
Quote:In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response
Thursday, February 3, 2011 12:56 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:05 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:12 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:13 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:25 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:29 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:51 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: ...but I'm guessing you are "pro-choice" in abortion and most other situations because you respect a persons right to make the right decision first and foremost.
Quote:The problem with abortion is there is an innocent life on the line who doesn't get a say in that decision, so I am against the right to choose overriding another's right to live.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:53 PM
Thursday, February 3, 2011 1:58 PM
Quote:Re IVF - women are given drugs to grow more eggs in a cycle, which are then harvested and implanted with sperm. Sometimes they can have a dozen or so embryos per cycle, if they are lucky. Embryos are implanted after a few days. The reason they harvest so many is that so few survive or are viable, or will 'take' in a cycle. Sometimes women are left with spare embryos, which are usually destroyed. I've known plenty of Christians who'd blanche at the idea of abortion, willingly and happily go through this procedure. But then most people are able to twist their beliefs to suit their circumstances in my view.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 3:50 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: Curious word choice, using 'Christians' specifically rather than RTL'ers, but I'm sure you're jonesing to catch Christians in hypocrisy.
Thursday, February 3, 2011 4:00 PM
Quote:Originally posted by TheHappyTrader: IMO 'life' can begin as soon as the zygote, so for decision making I'd prefer we assumed it 'does' begin at zygote.
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