REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

America commits suicide

POSTED BY: PIRATENEWS
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 1, 2009 17:16
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Sunday, August 30, 2009 8:41 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


S773: Rockefeller bill gives president emergency control of Internet
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html



Rockerfeller rabbis gave US the private "Federal" Reserve Bank, the animal slaughterhouse to build the United Nations Corporation, "cancer research" and allopathic medicine, World Trade Center... The original Rockefeller was a convicted snakeoil salesman.

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Monday, August 31, 2009 11:36 AM

DREAMTROVE


Nice. Of course, they can't control the internet without conquering switzerland and finland. I have retitled the thread what I think this bill effectively does.

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Monday, August 31, 2009 7:35 PM

FREMDFIRMA


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Nice. Of course, they can't control the internet without conquering switzerland and finland. I have retitled the thread what I think this bill effectively does.


Good fekkin LUCK, heh heh heh.

There's like three places in the world you do NOT wanna invade, Sweden cause everyone ELSE will come to their aid, Finland because they will absolutely, undeniably kick your ass, and Afghanistan because it's muchlike trying to jog across quicksand.

After being foolish enough to commit one of those blunders, we'd be insane to compound the stupidity by committing another.

Google: Winter War and go look what happened to the Russians, seriously.

-F

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 2:17 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Switzerland tends to get "looked down on" a bit by the U.S. for its neutrality, but that's mostly because most don't understand that that neutrality is AGGRESSIVELY kept. Swiss are armed, and they're trained. There's a story - probably anecdotal, but telling nonetheless - about a German general meeting with a Swiss general before the outbreak of WWII. The German general asks the Swiss how many men he could mobilize in 24 hours to defend his mountain passes. "One million armed citizens," comes the reply. "Well, what would you do if I brought five million soldiers through that pass tomorrow?" asks the German. "Each of my people would fire five shots, and go home," says the Swiss.

And the Germans never bothered to try to take Switzerland. Instead, they invaded Russia, seeing that as the easier target.

Afghanistan is worse. It's the place where empires go to die. And the funny thing is, every time an empire invades Afghanistan, they're fully convinced that THIS TIME it's going to be different. The British had rifles and artillery, and well-trained officers, and it only cost them an entire army to find out that Afghanistan isn't a place one can take and keep. The Russians had armor and helicopter gunships, and it only cost them their entire empire to find out that it's not a place one can hold. Then we decided we'd give it a try, because we have air superiority and drones. What we DON'T have is a strategy, or an end goal, or an exit plan. You can punish Afghanistan, you can hit her people and hurt them, but you can't take over and control them. But you can pour the whole of your empire down the drain trying...

Mike


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:02 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Good fekkin LUCK, heh heh heh.

There's like three places in the world you do NOT wanna invade, Sweden cause everyone ELSE will come to their aid, Finland because they will absolutely, undeniably kick your ass, and Afghanistan because it's muchlike trying to jog across quicksand.

After being foolish enough to commit one of those blunders, we'd be insane to compound the stupidity by committing another.

Google: Winter War and go look what happened to the Russians, seriously.

-F



I don't know man...

http://drownedinsound.com/news/4137680-swedish-court-orders-isp-to-cut
-pirate-bays-connection?ticker


I seriously thought there was a chance this stuff wouldn't happen there...

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25ubs.html?_r
=1


Seems to me that if you can control a country's internet and banking system, than you've pretty much already won the war without even firing a shot...

Pretty scary stuff actually.... especially given the generally held belief you have in the country and being that you're a mischief maker like me I hope I didn't break your heart too bad by showing you that stuff.

I'd like to get out someday, but then I ask myself..... Where would I go?

Why do you think I like Firefly so much...

Actually, it's been about 3 or 4 years since I watched it now. Damn near forget why I came to this site in the first place a lot of times. Maybe it's time I watched it again?


"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:12 AM

CONNOR


Quote:

Maybe it's time I watched it again?

Yes.

On a more on-topic note, yeah, this is pretty much America committing suicide. And while you people are talking about how Afghanistan and Finland aren't conquerable, I feel patriotic enough to mention that Scotland has never truly been conquered either. The Romans invaded a few times, and were driven out each time. We're only part of Great Britain thanks to the Treaty of Union ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Union).

Importance to the Internet? Well, I dunno, but considering the dotSCO campaign and the SNP's fight for independence, we could be seeing a lot more of Scotland in regards to net neutrality in the future.

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:56 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:

Afghanistan is worse. It's the place where empires go to die. And the funny thing is, every time an empire invades Afghanistan, they're fully convinced that THIS TIME it's going to be different. The British had rifles and artillery, and well-trained officers, and it only cost them an entire army to find out that Afghanistan isn't a place one can take and keep. The Russians had armor and helicopter gunships, and it only cost them their entire empire to find out that it's not a place one can hold. Then we decided we'd give it a try, because we have air superiority and drones. What we DON'T have is a strategy, or an end goal, or an exit plan. You can punish Afghanistan, you can hit her people and hurt them, but you can't take over and control them. But you can pour the whole of your empire down the drain trying...



Just trying to imagine what our military is thinking...
I think they think we're already "winning" in Afghanistan. Winning as defined by the military ... it's not the old days of nation building, we're not going to annex the country obviously, so what's the point? One point is to have a military presence in the country/region.

And maybe more importantly to them because it's easier to justify everything to the US people if you do this: to be actively engaging the Taliban. News filters back with "Taliban dead" attached to it and citizens tend to be able to swallow most of the hardships that come with it.

You see those highway projects that last forever? Seems like they get drawn out as long as the money is there and they don't cause too much public outrage.

I think also for the military, if you are trained to fight, you want to bloody well FIGHT! someone somewhere, almost anywhere. Sure the Swiss have soldiers and they're *trained*, but that's not the same as having someone shooting at you.

So maybe just "fighting" is the whole point?

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:27 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:


I think also for the military, if you are trained to fight, you want to bloody well FIGHT! someone somewhere, almost anywhere. Sure the Swiss have soldiers and they're *trained*, but that's not the same as having someone shooting at you.

So maybe just "fighting" is the whole point?



And that's the nub of it, and that's WHY Eisenhower was so prescient when he warned of the "military-industrial complex" - you get so built up in the military stuff that your economy is wrapped up in it, and then you HAVE TO use the stuff, or you won't need it anymore, and the economy will sputter if you're not manufacturing more, better, bigger, newer STUFF, which you then have to use, and so on, ad infinitum.

Thing is, if our goal was to punish the Taliban for harboring Bin Laden, fine. Hit 'em, hit 'em fast and hard, and call it done. Lesson learned: Don't fuck with us again, or next time it's nukes for you. That sounds unnecessarily harsh, and is, but you can bet your ass the message would fucking well get across.

Instead we're in there trying to "bring democracy" to an area that freely chose the Taliban last time anyone gave them anything like an actual choice, because the majority of that nation is Pashtun and believes like the Taliban believe. So what's our best-case scenario? That we topple the Taliban so a new Taliban can be elected? No, if we're there "to bring them democracy", that's just a shitty translation of us being there to install our own puppet regime, like so many have tried before. Karzai won't live to see the end of this decade, I'd bet. But we'll still be there, bogged down and going nowhere, and now not able to simply declare "Mission Accomplished" and get the fuck out, having punished everyone and everything in the country already.

Now Obama is saying things about Afghanistan being "fundamental" to U.S. foreign policy, which just digs us deeper into that hellhole, when we ought to be digging an escape tunnel, like Osama did out of Tora Bora (allegedly).

Call it GAME OVER, declare victory, and just fucking GET OUT. Why waste hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of lives chasing after vengeance that can never be made better by spilling more blood?

Mike


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 8:31 AM

WULFENSTAR

http://youtu.be/VUnGTXRxGHg


"Why waste hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of lives chasing after vengeance that can never be made better by spilling more blood?"



Cause its fun?

lol

If we followed the Constitution we wouldn't be in this mess.

But thats ok. Just keep believing whatever the talking heads say.

Meanwhile, us Browncoats are loading up on ammo and supplies. Gotta be ready to take the country back.

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:29 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Thing is, if our goal was to punish the Taliban for harboring Bin Laden, fine. Hit 'em, hit 'em fast and hard, and call it done. Lesson learned: Don't fuck with us again, or next time it's nukes for you. That sounds unnecessarily harsh, and is, but you can bet your ass the message would fucking well get across.



I don't think that's the goal they talk about at the Pentagon, "punishment." That sells to the public - I think their goal is to keep the Taliban occupied and maybe make them lose their will to fight for a while - and that will take a long time and they are just fine with that, I think it's the point. It's like their perfect war. It's NEW (as in newer to the front pages than Iraq)! It's Obama's so people are not as tired of it...

Besides, that country is such a wreck, how are we going to make it worse? Can't threaten people who have almost nothing - we're giving them something to die for.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Instead we're in there trying to "bring democracy" to an area that freely chose the Taliban last time anyone gave them anything like an actual choice, because the majority of that nation is Pashtun and believes like the Taliban believe. So what's our best-case scenario? That we topple the Taliban so a new Taliban can be elected? No, if we're there "to bring them democracy", that's just a shitty translation of us being there to install our own puppet regime, like so many have tried before. Karzai won't live to see the end of this decade, I'd bet. But we'll still be there, bogged down and going nowhere, and now not able to simply declare "Mission Accomplished" and get the fuck out, having punished everyone and everything in the country already.



Installing a puppet regime - in theory - does have it's advantages, as in we're not there. Too bad there isn't a model for a GOOD & FAIR puppet regime out there.

Fwiw, from what I've read, imho - the Taliban are not loved or allied with because they are Pashtun, but rather because they are the most merciless m-f*ckers in the neighborhood. And they pay. Afghan fighters on all sides have been known to change teams in the middle of a battle if their side is losing OR if the other side is paying better. We could pay them, we could make this go away (as we did with huge success in Iraq), but then the military wouldn't have it's testing ground.


Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 9:48 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


I think the government should let the private sector fuck up, like it always does. Run their infrastructure (electrical grid, banking hardware, gas transmission pipelines, control systems and software etc.) into the ground in the quest for bigger and better profits. Why try to save them from themselves? We've been living off the misery and death of everyone else for decades, believing that "capitalism" is a magic system that creates wealth for everyone because we managed to steal it from everyone else. Now, it's our turn in the barrel*. Americans need a big boot on their butt to give them a REAL taste of what capitalism is all about. And as long as they keep running Microsoft products, they will continue to have big, gaping security holes. Let them.

* Refers to a joke about a barrel in the prison yard. New inmate is introduced to the barrel, where he stuck in his wanker and and got sucked off. He was told: "You can use the barrel any day of the week except Tuesday." "Tuesday? what happnes on Tuesday"?" he asked. The answer came back "Tuesday is YOUR turn in the barrel".

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 10:30 AM

DREAMTROVE


Yah, I know the Winter War. I think there was some sarcasm in my statement

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 1:53 PM

OUT2THEBLACK


Russia Today Video , where it is predicted that the BamaChurian pResident will implode America :


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 2:15 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

Afghanistan is worse. It's the place where empires go to die. And the funny thing is, every time an empire invades Afghanistan, they're fully convinced that THIS TIME it's going to be different. The British had rifles and artillery, and well-trained officers, and it only cost them an entire army to find out that Afghanistan isn't a place one can take and keep. The Russians had armor and helicopter gunships, and it only cost them their entire empire to find out that it's not a place one can hold. Then we decided we'd give it a try, because we have air superiority and drones. What we DON'T have is a strategy, or an end goal, or an exit plan. You can punish Afghanistan, you can hit her people and hurt them, but you can't take over and control them. But you can pour the whole of your empire down the drain trying...


Yup, it is one of the things of which they are proudest...a people who have little to take pride in, and "little" in essentially everything. I lived there for 3-1/2 years; I adore the people, but the lives they lead were incredibly harsh. It's been a shock ever since 9/11 to hear it in the news constantly, considering when we came home and told people we'd lived there, they'd furrow their brows and say "uhhh, is that in Africa somewhere?"

If America ever learned to REBUILD what she so cheerfully goes in and destroys, she'd earn the respect and loyalty of the people she conquers, but we tend to walk away and wash our hands after a war, which sickens me.

The Afghans don't love the Taliban, I know there's a lot of misinformation out there so you don't have to believe me, but I'll say it anyway--and it's NOT opinion, I still have Afghan friends. The Taliban fought the Russians, who were incredibly oppressive--hey, remember, we helped supply them and called them "freedom fighters". Once in power, they became only slightly less the terror than the Russians had been (if you knew all the things the Russians did..).

It's not a country built for democracy, that's absolutely right. In a desert, where people are isolated in such dramatic fasion and life is only clung to by a thread, regional, tribal leaders are in power. There were few roads connecting villages--still are few from what I hear--you can't make roads that last in a desert, the sands ("shamals" that literally take the paint off cars), the snow, everything conspires to destroy them.

The temperatures easily get to 140 in summer; six foot snows in Winter; they burn donkey dung for fires, as trees were used up long ago by the kuchis--nomadic camel bands. I could tell you things that would curl your hair--no American can truly even begin to understand unless they lived there--not just passed through, but LIVED there, just as is true of any society hugely different from our own.

It was that way when we were there, '58-'61, when there still was a shah. He was a very forward-thinking man, tho' a despot, but he understood that he only had a light hand on the country as a whole, the local leaders handled everyday life. He got the chadri removed--I know because my mom was involved in it--and was getting women education, jobs...all of which went down the drain with the Russian occupation and now is even worse with the Taliban.

You can't take a country 2000 years forward in a few decades, nobody seems to grasp that. I heard "bomb them back to the stone ages", but they were barely OUT of the stone ages. If I really told you how it was back then, and probably not much different outside Kabul and other major cities today, you might not believe it.

In the kuchi tribes, who cross the desert on the trade routes that have existed before the time of Christ, when a woman has her baby she drops behind, finds a rock, and catches up when/if she can. Same with the elderly, they drop behind and die in the desert when they can't keep up. Insh'allah. Allah's will.

The poverty is unbelievable by any standards we know--far more than you can imagine. The childhood death rate is such that the saying was if a child can live to the age of ten, nothing can kill him but a knife or a bullet.

The penalty for stealing was to chop off the right hand. The right hand is used for eating out of the communal bowl; the left for pissing. Cutting off the right hand means starving to death.

We saw so much...the foreign women became immured to it; our first week there, mom was at a bridge game (bridge and cocktail parties were the "life" of the foreign wives). A woman ran in saying "knife fight!" and all the women raced out to see. An American woman stupidly went to a cocktail party in a strapless evening gown, taking the local transport (a "ghadi", horse-drawn carriage with one seat facing forward, the other facing back). She was found with a knife in her back.

You have no concept of Afghanistan...it makes Iraq look like the garden of Eden. They actually love Americans over there, or they did...they fight us because when you have little to live for, the afterlife is all; when Christian strangers come into your valley to fight Muslims and there's no employment, the young men join the fight on the Muslim's side. But given HALF a chance, the Afghans will side with the Americans; they're a very proud, strong people who will die for you if they get to know you.

It's very, very complex and, just as we waltzed into Iraq without the slightest idea what we were getting into, so we waltzed into Afghanistan...and will leave it even more of a rubble when we go.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:00 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


WWW = World Wide Wiretap

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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 3:42 PM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Quote:

Afghanistan is worse. It's the place where empires go to die. And the funny thing is, every time an empire invades Afghanistan, they're fully convinced that THIS TIME it's going to be different. The British had rifles and artillery, and well-trained officers, and it only cost them an entire army to find out that Afghanistan isn't a place one can take and keep. The Russians had armor and helicopter gunships, and it only cost them their entire empire to find out that it's not a place one can hold. Then we decided we'd give it a try, because we have air superiority and drones. What we DON'T have is a strategy, or an end goal, or an exit plan. You can punish Afghanistan, you can hit her people and hurt them, but you can't take over and control them. But you can pour the whole of your empire down the drain trying...


Yup, it is one of the things of which they are proudest...a people who have little to take pride in, and "little" in essentially everything. I lived there for 3-1/2 years; I adore the people, but the lives they lead were incredibly harsh. It's been a shock ever since 9/11 to hear it in the news constantly, considering when we came home and told people we'd lived there, they'd furrow their brows and say "uhhh, is that in Africa somewhere?"

If America ever learned to REBUILD what she so cheerfully goes in and destroys, she'd earn the respect and loyalty of the people she conquers, but we tend to walk away and wash our hands after a war, which sickens me.

The Afghans don't love the Taliban, I know there's a lot of misinformation out there so you don't have to believe me, but I'll say it anyway--and it's NOT opinion, I still have Afghan friends. The Taliban fought the Russians, who were incredibly oppressive--hey, remember, we helped supply them and called them "freedom fighters". Once in power, they became only slightly less the terror than the Russians had been (if you knew all the things the Russians did..).

It's not a country built for democracy, that's absolutely right. In a desert, where people are isolated in such dramatic fasion and life is only clung to by a thread, regional, tribal leaders are in power. There were few roads connecting villages--still are few from what I hear--you can't make roads that last in a desert, the sands ("shamals" that literally take the paint off cars), the snow, everything conspires to destroy them.

The temperatures easily get to 140 in summer; six foot snows in Winter; they burn donkey dung for fires, as trees were used up long ago by the kuchis--nomadic camel bands. I could tell you things that would curl your hair--no American can truly even begin to understand unless they lived there--not just passed through, but LIVED there, just as is true of any society hugely different from our own.

It was that way when we were there, '58-'61, when there still was a shah. He was a very forward-thinking man, tho' a despot, but he understood that he only had a light hand on the country as a whole, the local leaders handled everyday life. He got the chadri removed--I know because my mom was involved in it--and was getting women education, jobs...all of which went down the drain with the Russian occupation and now is even worse with the Taliban.

You can't take a country 2000 years forward in a few decades, nobody seems to grasp that. I heard "bomb them back to the stone ages", but they were barely OUT of the stone ages. If I really told you how it was back then, and probably not much different outside Kabul and other major cities today, you might not believe it.

In the kuchi tribes, who cross the desert on the trade routes that have existed before the time of Christ, when a woman has her baby she drops behind, finds a rock, and catches up when/if she can. Same with the elderly, they drop behind and die in the desert when they can't keep up. Insh'allah. Allah's will.

The poverty is unbelievable by any standards we know--far more than you can imagine. The childhood death rate is such that the saying was if a child can live to the age of ten, nothing can kill him but a knife or a bullet.

The penalty for stealing was to chop off the right hand. The right hand is used for eating out of the communal bowl; the left for pissing. Cutting off the right hand means starving to death.

We saw so much...the foreign women became immured to it; our first week there, mom was at a bridge game (bridge and cocktail parties were the "life" of the foreign wives). A woman ran in saying "knife fight!" and all the women raced out to see. An American woman stupidly went to a cocktail party in a strapless evening gown, taking the local transport (a "ghadi", horse-drawn carriage with one seat facing forward, the other facing back). She was found with a knife in her back.

You have no concept of Afghanistan...it makes Iraq look like the garden of Eden. They actually love Americans over there, or they did...they fight us because when you have little to live for, the afterlife is all; when Christian strangers come into your valley to fight Muslims and there's no employment, the young men join the fight on the Muslim's side. But given HALF a chance, the Afghans will side with the Americans; they're a very proud, strong people who will die for you if they get to know you.

It's very, very complex and, just as we waltzed into Iraq without the slightest idea what we were getting into, so we waltzed into Afghanistan...and will leave it even more of a rubble when we go.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts



Thanks for sharing that Niki2. Now I have an idea where your impatience comes from. You're from this country and not in a way - everything changes once you travel to other countries, especially as you have. We're supposedly "Thee Super Power," but once you see other cultures firsthand it feels more like we're young and spoiled. I think of the U.S. like a teenage King, just a little too green to understand it all, or have the wisdom to rule wisely. Not their fault, they're just young.
Most of what I know about Afghanistan comes from Dexter Filkins' "Forever War" - http://dexterfilkins.net/ the beauty of the people and the sadness of the country, how far we in the West are from understanding... it was like tragic science fiction to me. Butchers who set up shop next to minefields and have local orphans go into the live fields - happily - to retrieve the dead animals for a few pennies all while risking their lives.
Can't be said strongly enough: you cannot use western perceptions. I am saddest of all that our first contact emissaries so-to-speak are people with guns and bombs... are you f*cking kidding? So very stupid.

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com Now available on your iPhone


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Tuesday, September 1, 2009 5:16 PM

BYTEMITE


Connor: And Culloden. Damned butcher.

Quote:

Call it GAME OVER, declare victory, and just fucking GET OUT. Why waste hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of lives chasing after vengeance that can never be made better by spilling more blood?


Because it never was about terrorism?

Niki, thanks for your post.

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